CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

[jagged_angel]

Salamence is meant to break stuff and can roost anyways. Zapdos is a staller who can also roost and Gyarados can Taunt or kill stuff to buy leftovers time. Unless this pokemon ends up with a recovery move and/or bulky, SR weak is not a good thing. And bug typing isn't good enough to warrant it. Bug and Electric attacks are resisted by 7 types when paired.

Regardless of how much I like Bug, SR weakness is Never a good thing. It's a shame that it's a deal breaker for lots of voters but that's the way it is.

Also the pairing of Bug and Electric is not resisted by 7 types! There is No one type that resists both Bug and Electric moves. In fact, there are very few existing dual types that resist both Bug and Electric - Steelix, Gliscor, Magnezone and Fidgit are the only ones that spring to mind.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Bug and Electric attacks are resisted by 7 types when paired.

Electric is only resisted by itself, Grass, Ground and Dragon. Bug hits SE against the former and neutral to the rest. Since when is that "resisted by 7 types when paired?"

EDIT: Damn, jagged angel bet me to it

 

[Matthew]

Salamence is meant to break stuff and can roost anyways. Zapdos is a staller who can also roost and Gyarados can Taunt or kill stuff to buy leftovers time. Unless this pokemon ends up with a recovery move and/or bulky, SR weak is not a good thing. And bug typing isn't good enough to warrant it. Bug and Electric attacks are resisted by 7 types when paired.

Then chances are pretty good that we would give this pokemon some sort of recovery move if it did win. Bug-type is amazing and truly underrated. Though I don't really care if you agree with me.

You can't really complain about the type coverage of anything with Dragon, as nothing, but Steel-types, resists Dragon, where it only hits one type super effectively. Electric/Dragon will hit Water-,Flying-, and Dragon-types super effectively. Electric/Water does better and hits Rock-, Ground-, Fire-, Flying-, and Water-types super effectively. Electric/Poison will hit Grass-, Flying-, and Water-types. On the other hand, Electric/Bug will hit Dark-, Grass-, Psychic-, Water-, and Flying-types for super effective damage.

 

[Coram_Boy]

I like the idea of electric-water myself - It's a nice defensive typing and not too shabby offensively either (although I don't know if it would be offensive or defensive in style obviously). A close second would be Electric-Dragon, mainly because of the nice resistances and it again being a good defensive type. if faced with an SE attack, there is always the possibility of switching out...

 

[Ezekiel]

Also the pairing of Bug and Electric is not resisted by 7 types! There is No one type that resists both Bug and Electric moves. In fact, there are very few existing dual types that resist both Bug and Electric - Steelix, Gliscor, Magnezone and Fidgit are the only ones that spring to mind.

I think this was a problem of poor phrasing. Because, in fact, the pair of Electric and Bug is resisted by seven types, if you interpret it like this:

Electric is resisted by Dragon, Electric, and Grass, but SE against Flying and Water. Bug is resisted by Fighting, Fire, Flying, Ghost, Poison, Steel, but SE against Grass, Dark, and Psychic.

If you consider those types which resist either Bug or Electric, and don't consider ones that one of them is SE against (this gets rid of Grass [weak to Bug] and Flying [weak to Electric]), then there are seven types left. Those are Fighting, Fire, Ghost, Poison, Steel, Dragon, and Electric.

Another way to put it is, there are seven types which are either reistant or neutral to the combined Electric/Bug. Additionally, no type is weak to both Bug and Electric, and most of these types are common in the OU tier (Fighting/Steel, Fire/Steel, and Fighting/Ghost stand out as really nasty combinations; Lucario, Heatran, and Revenankh could rip poor little CAP8 a new one if Bug is its secondary type).

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I think this was a problem of poor phrasing. Because, in fact, the pair of Electric and Bug is resisted by seven types, if you interpret it like this:

That's still not resisted by 7 types. There's also Ground which you missed, so that makes it 8. But even so, that's not how pair resistance works.

 

[Matthew]

(Fighting/Steel, Fire/Steel, and Fighting/Ghost stand out as really nasty combinations; Lucario, Heatran, and Revenankh could rip poor little CAP8 a new one if Bug is its secondary type).

If we give our little Bug friend a base 95 speed and Earthquake then Heatran and Lucario have to worry about switching in. He doesn't even need that base speed if we just gave him Earthquake, as they would then still be wary of switching in. Also having a hard counter doesn't make a pokemon poor, that makes it not broken.

 

[Ezekiel]

I apologize if I misunderstand how the terminology is used here; as I mentioned before, I'm still somewhat new. At the same time, the point about the seven resistances still stands. Also, I edited my previous post to include other examples of pokémon that resist both Bug and Electric.

Thank you, though, for correcting my omission about Ground. I was so focused on resistance, I completely forgot immunities! :( Unfortunately, adding Ground in just makes things even worse, offensively speaking, for Electric/Bug.

 

[jagged_angel]

Another way to put it is, there are seven types which are either reistant or neutral to the combined Electric/Bug. Additionally, no type is weak to both Bug and Electric, and most of these types are common in the OU tier (Fighting/Steel, Fire/Steel, and Fighting/Ghost stand out as really nasty combinations; Lucario, Heatran, and Revenankh could rip poor little CAP8 a new one if Bug is its secondary type).

I'm not sure how you figure that.

For a start you can't say " there are seven types which are either reistant or neutral to the combined Electric/Bug" since that implies that at least one of the types resists Both of them.

I'm also not sure how you reason that Lucario, Heatran and Rev are threatening to an Electric/Bug. Heatran of course scares any Bug half to death, but both Lucario's STABs are weak against Elec/Bug so I don't see how it can do much ripping purely on a type basis. Rev's strongest attack is also resisted by Elec/Bug so it's hardly threatening on a type basis.

You could also say "There are 14 types which are either reistant or neutral to the combined Electric/Dragon" but that obviously misrepresents the offensive coverage of the typing, just like you did with Electric/Bug.

 

[Matthew]

Ok, lets just clear this up right now:

Electric/Bug will not hit: Fidget, Gliscor, Magnezone, Rotom and Steelix.

Heatran can be dealt with once we start giving out move pools, and possibly give this pokemon Earthquake. Lucario's STAB moves will not hit Electric/Bug at all. Revenankh will not be able to hit Electric/Bug also, considering if we give him bulk or not. Even then a Shadow Sneak will not do too much to our little friend. You guys are doubting the coverage that Electric/Bug will get us, and it is defensive too! Meaning that we can take this CAP in any direction we would want to.

 

[bpblu]

Ok, lets just clear this up right now:

Electric/Bug will not hit: Fidget, Gliscor, Magnezone, Rotom and Steelix.

Heatran can be dealt with once we start giving out move pools, and possibly give this pokemon Earthquake. Lucario's STAB moves will not hit Electric/Grass at all. Revenankh will not be able to hit Electric/Grass also, considering if we give him bulk or not. Even then a Shadow Sneak will not do too much to our little friend. You guys are doubting the coverage that Electric/Bug will get us, and it is defensive too! Meaning that we can take this CAP in any direction we would want to.

I hate to be nitpicky, but Fighting's neutral against Electric & Grass.

Anyways, I do like the spread we're getting with Electric/Bug... the more I think about it, the more I agree with some other people about Electric/Bug. Yes, Stealth Rock is a problem, but it isn't an insurmountable one (that's why spinners exist).

 

[Ezekiel]

Okay, I concede; it's a bad way of saying it all around. I'm sorry for defending it.

I still see Electric/Bug as being more painful than helpful, exchanging one painful weakness (Ground) for two (Fire, Rock) with, in my opinion, an insufficient offensive return (Weavile, Celebi, Cresselia and Latias are the only ones in the OU that really have anything to fear from the addition of the Bug type.)

 

[Matthew]

I still see Electric/Bug as being more painful than helpful, exchanging one painful weakness (Ground) for two (Fire, Rock)

You're forgetting the resistances that Bug also gives. Fire is seen a bit, I'll give you that, but Rock is no where besides on Tyranitar and Gem.

 

[bpblu]

You forgot, Ezekiel, that Tyranitar is actually weak to Bug (unless I'm reading the Type Charts wrong). Given we give Electric/Bug-mon a physical Bug move... Tyranitar might not be so anxious to get in there and scare our Elec-Bug off (unless Tar has Scarf... but I'm going too far into this).

 

[Kamen Rider]

I disagree, grounds like Mamoswine, Gliscor, and Dugtrio have all been known to carry Stone Edge, so while Bug makes it neutral to their EQ, it doesnt protect it from having these guys deal SE against it. There is also Aerodactly and Rhyperior OU rocks as well.

 

[Matthew]

42 | Gliscor | 75 | 3.78 |
34 | Dugtrio | 119 | 5.99 |
63 | Rhyperior | 95 | 1.22 |
62 | Aerodactyl | 103 | 1.33


I wouldn't worry about those four too much, though you are right about Mamoswine.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Here's a question: Who cares about resisting Pursuit!? Why is everyone so interested in that?

With all due respect to "experienced" participants, Dark would be giving it a whole bunch of weaknesses that would just be a drag to carry around.

 

[Jhonny]

The way people are talking it's like what they're trying to do is choose the secondary typing that will give the most resistances in accordance with the most used Pokemon. I understand that this would make sense if we were, say, making Arghonaut again, but for this it doesn't really seem necessary. Optimizing things isn't the right way to go. The process needs to flex more depending on the concept.

 

[m190049]

I still see Electric/Bug as being more painful than helpful, exchanging one painful weakness (Ground) for two (Fire, Rock) with, in my opinion, an insufficient offensive return

In the same Way, Dragon KEEPS Ground, which is a letdown it it's own, and adds Ice and Dragon Weaknesses. Which is terrible since those are some of the most popular offensive types.

(Weavile, Celebi, Cresselia and Latias are the only ones in the OU that really have anything to fear from the addition of the Bug type.)

Bug STAB is notably super effective versus these threats:
Abomasnow
Alakazam
Azelf
Celebi
Cresselia
Gallade
Latias
Starmie
Tyranitar
Weavile

And not to mention the Electric-Type will have great coverage as well.

 

[Princess_power]

Bug, Poison, Grass, and Water are my favorites so far. Bug currently holds only Scizor, Forretress, Heracross, and Ninjask. Poison has only Gengar and Tentacruel, while Grass has only Breloom and Celebi; Water has signifigantly more, but all the above mentioned types are very flexible; none are hyper offensive like Dragon, or defensive, like Steel, and each recieves a myriad of support moves as well as attack options.

Stealth Rock weakness, awful STAB type coverage, or ease of sweeping shouldn't be the only things considered when picking a type. I specifically support the idea of a Grass type, because it currently only has 2 Pokes, both of which have been dwindling in usage after Scizor usage skyrocketed. Grass negates that nasty ground weakness, brings a good amount of support options in terms of status and team healing, and .. I don't know, seems fun to me to try to make.

The way people are talking it's like what they're trying to do is choose the secondary typing that will give the most resistances in accordance with the most used Pokemon. I understand that this would make sense if we were, say, making Arghonaut again, but for this it doesn't really seem necessary. Optimizing things isn't the right way to go. The process needs to flex more depending on the concept.

I agree with this. I think people mention the resistances their supported types give to make it seem a better choice; why not give a Neglected Abillity a Neglected Type to go along with it? Coverage, SR/Pursuit weakness, and the abillity to check the most common threats is not the point this time, right?

I still see Electric/Bug as being more painful than helpful, exchanging one painful weakness (Ground) for two (Fire, Rock) with, in my opinion, an insufficient offensive return (Weavile, Celebi, Cresselia and Latias are the only ones in the OU that really have anything to fear from the addition of the Bug type.)

CAP .. 8? Isn't meant to be "The Ultimate Sweeper" yet. I agree that Bug + Electric is rather redundant for type coverage, but there's nothing physically wrong with that. I'm actually against the idea of an Electric Dragon, mainly because it would get 3 support moves: Dragon Dance/Charge Beam with Baton Pass, and Thunder Wave.

 

[Elevator Music]

I don't care so much to resisting Pursuit as I do to not being weak to it.

In other news, Weavile, Cresselia, Celebi, Latias, and possibly Azelf are the only things having a Bug STAB will actually be worthwile for. Also, Bug doesn't hit Gallade SE. All the other pokemon on the list probably won't be hit hard enough to do too much damage (Tyranitar is a bulky fugger, even if we go physical), aren't used enough to be taken seriously (I'm looking at you Abomasnow and Alakazm), or get hit plenty hard by your Electric STAB anyways (Starmie etc).

 

[Naxte]

In the same Way, Dragon KEEPS Ground, which is a letdown it it's own, and adds Ice and Dragon Weaknesses. Which is terrible since those are some of the most popular offensive types.


Bug STAB is notably super effective versus these threats:
Abomasnow
Alakazam
Azelf
Celebi
Cresselia
Gallade
Latias
Starmie
Tyranitar
Weavile

And not to mention the Electric-Type will have great coverage as well.

You're point is valid, but can you please stop listing the one's I formatted? Abomasnow and Gallade may be BL, but they're rarely seen in OU, so they're not relevant; they may be classified as a higher tier than UU pokes, but that doesn't change how much they're used. Starmie's already hit for super-effective with the primary electric typing, so it being hit by bug for super-effective as well is irrelevant also. Azelf's primary purpose is being a suicide lead (which most are used as), complete with Focus Sash, meaning the best you'll manage is a 2HKO anyway, which, with its frality, you'd get with your primary electrical STAB anyway.

Ttar is also really iffy; it's true that you're be hitting it super-effective, but it can hit you right back with a super-effective STAB Stone Edge, which, especially on top of SR damage coming in, isn't pleasant. Tyranitar also commonly carry Earthquake, which even hitting neutral will hurt with Ttar's huge attack score, so even if you don't get hit with Stone Edge, you still won't find entry easy. At best, it would be a stand-off for CAP8, with neither really wanting to come into each other and thus hitting Ttar for super-effective not being too relevant, due to the danger it in turns suffers against it because of the typing.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

In other news, Weavile, Cresselia, Celebi, Latias, and possibly Azelf are the only things having a Bug STAB will actually be worthwile for. Also, Bug doesn't hit Gallade SE. All the other pokemon on the list probably won't be hit hard enough to do too much damage (Tyranitar is a bulky fugger, even if we go physical), aren't used enough to be taken seriously (I'm looking at you Abomasnow and Alakazm), or get hit plenty hard by your Electric STAB anyways (Starmie etc).

I'm beginning to not even think about Bug anymore due to good points such as this.

It all just strengthens Posion's side when it comes down to it.

 

[Matthew]

You're point is valid, but can you please stop listing the one's I formatted? Abomasnow and Gallade may be BL, but they're rarely seen in OU, so they're not relevant; they may be classifed as a higher tier than UU pokes, but that doesn't change how much they're used. Starmie's already hit for super-effective with the primary electric typing, so it being hit by bug for super-effective as well is irrelevant also. Azelf's primary purpose is being a suicide lead, complete with Focus Sash, meaning the best you'll manage is a 2HKO anyway, which, with its frality, you'd get with your primary electrical STAB anyway.

Ttar is also a bit iffy; it's true that you're be hitting it super-effective, but it can hit you right back with a super-effective STAB Stone Edge, which, especially on top of SR damage, isn't pleasent. Tyranitar's also commonly carry Earthquake, so even if you don't get hit with Stone Edge, you still won't find entry easy. At best, it would be a stand-off for CAP8, with neither really wanting to come into each other and thus hitting Ttar for super-effective not being too relevent, due to the danger it in turns suffers against it because of the typing.

Well the thing is Tyranitar wouldn't like to switch in on CAP8 considering his Bug-typing. Though I can see where you are coming from. Since when does a pokemon having a counter make it poor? We aren't very far into CAP8, so if we make it a Bug-type then we can work our way from there. It could be a wall or sweeper, we don't really know yet. Depending on that we cannot firmly say that what will counter it and what will not.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Stealth Rock weakness does not make a pokemon poor. Case and point Zapdos, Salamence and Gyarados.

However, those are all offensive Pokemon (well, not Zapdos neccessarily, but it can force many Pokemon out with powerful attacks and heal easily with Roost). However, Pyroak is largely considered the worst CAP because of the fact that it's defensive, weak to Stealth Rock, and has no guranteed easy recovery.

If the Pokemon is going to end up offensive, Electric/Bug is fine (though inferior to Electric/Dragon). If the Pokemon is defensive, I'd really rather something like Water, Poison or even Dragon again.

Either way, Bug doesn't seem like all that great of an option.