We don't want something too powerful, either offensively or defensively. We're not looking to break the Metagame with "unresisted coverage" and everything.
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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion
- Thread starter cyberzero
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We can make it less powerful.
Typing is great and all but if you don't have the stats to back it up its worth jack. I don't see how you can break a Pokemon with typing alone, you need a good ability and good stats to back them up. See: Dialga. It has amazing defensive typing, but its Uber because of it's stats, not the typing.
Personally, I believe Fighting would make a good choice. It resists pursuit and stealth rock, and only adds weakness to psychic, which isn't used all that often (also adds weakness to flying, but electric resists that). Electric/Fighting resists Electric, Steel, Rock, Dark, and Bug. No one type resists both, and the only OU pokemon that resist both are Fidgit, Roserade, and Celebi. All in all, it feels like a type that can fare well.
Psychic is used quite a lot in the CAP metagame. Standard Metagross run Zen Headbutt and many Celebi run Psychic.
This is exactly why I said Electric/Dragon is a good mix in my first post. It gives several perks, resistances and decent offensive ability etc. etc. and it ALSO gives several negatives. I think a case can be made for both Elec/Drag and Elec/Bug that they have a mix of offenses and defenses, I just personally believe that Dragon's mix is slightly better than Bug's. (Don't get me wrong--Bug is probably 2nd or 3rd on my list, along with Water. It's still good.) And TM30's argument--that Electric/Dragon meshes nicely with other pokémon, such as Syclant, Scizor, or Skarmory--is still a good one. (Of course, Electric/Bug pairs well with Swampert, but that's beside the point. :P)
Also...I've seen a few posts (mostly Gen. Empoleon, but also others) mentioning that Bug isn't a problem if CAP8 gets Earthquake in its movepool. I worry that this is thinking too much along the same lines as "[Type X] is okay if we give it [Ability Y]." Obviously this isn't the only defense of Bug, but I think it's best to be careful when basing an early and fundamental decision on a future decision. Furthermore, if one wants CAP8 to any degree of flexibility, it should be able to have alternate movesets (eg, sets that don't include EQ).
As for "uberizing", I'd like to point out that Electric/Bug theoretically has just as much chance of being overpowered as Electric/Dragon. Only two weaknesses, one less than Dragon, and an equal number of resistances, though one--Electric--is a 4x for Dragon. In absolute numbers, they have an effectively equal ratio of weaknesses and resistances, so the only reason one could be 'more uber' than the other is if those weaknesses are less painful, or the resistances more useful.
To be fair on my part I really only said that we can give CAP8 Earthquake as people were already trying to say "Heatran and Infernape counter it, it's terrible" I was saying how that we could give it one move and then those two pokemon not only have to worry about if that pokemon comes (given the speed stat) but also have to be wary if they decide to switch in on the pokemon. Of course a pokemon is going to have some sure fire counter, otherwise it would be broken and then we would have to "nerf" it. At this point it would be silly to assume that a pokemon such as Heatran, Infernape or Tyranitar are counters to a certain pokemon as we don't even know the pokemons stat spread, which is actually the pokemon itself.
Electric/Bug and Electric/Dragon are tied in about everything, though Electric/Dragon may give better neutral coverage it's weaknesses are a lot more common that Electric/Bug. So really it's a coin flip of whether you like more neutral coverage, or if you like a better set of resistances.
Electric/Dragon and Electric/Bug are the frontrunners right now, but water beats both of them in versitility. Why?
Electric/Dragon offers great neutral coverage. Dragon in general has excellent neutral coverge by itself. But water is superior. Electric/Water hits more SE and, with Ice Beam (which all waters get) it is unresisted outside of Shedinja. Electric/Dragon still has to deal with Magnezone walling it.
Bug has good SE coverage. It can kill off annoying things like Celebi that plague electric types. But water is superior. Water can take out things with ease that electric can't even hit. Water also keeps Heatran out, who can come in on both STAB Dragon and Bug.
OU's Water is Super Effective against that Electric isn't
Infernape
Heatran
Hippowdon
Mamoswine
Gliscor
Rhyperior
Donphan
Dugtrio
Fidgit
Tyranitar
Of those, Dugtrio and Donphan are fairly irrevlevent, due to their rarity, and in Dugtrio's case, fraility. However, Heatran, Infernape and T-tar are HUGE! They are all in the top ten. As I previously stated, Ice Beam can be auto-included as this is a Water type. Water/Electric/Ice hits seven types SE, including Dragon, Ground, Water, and Flying.
Also... water is neutral to SR!!! No problem there!
Electric/Water is weak to Ground and Grass. Thats it. 2 Weakness, and Grass is fairly uncommon. People say that Breloom and Celebi are so common. Well Salmence, who hits Electric/Dragon SE with Outrage and Draco Meteor is number 2 most used in March on SU. Sixteen THOUSAND six hundred ninty-one more Mences were used than Celebi and Breloom combined! 16,000! Don't bother me with Breloom and Celebi!
Electric/Bug and Electric/Dragon are both versitle. They could go both offensive or defensive. But Electric/Water is STILL superior. Offensively, it provides more SE Coverage than Dragon and equivalent to that of Bug. But SE hits on Dark and Psychic are much less impressive as Ground and Fire. It has less weakness than Dragon, and equal to bug. But Fire and Rock weakness can be crippling. While Ground may be bad, the water type shuts down most STAB users, and Grass isn't that great to begin with. Water/Electric/Ice hits EVERYTHING... minus an irrelevant Sheddy, but a common Magnezone and a rare (but more common than Sheddy) Steelix shut down the other combos. Electric/Bug is shut down by Gliscor as well.
In conclusion, Electric/Dragon and Electic/Bug are good types. In fact, the would be my next 2 choices after water. But water takes the good things from both of them, and adds some goodness of its own. Water is clearly the way to go.
Electric/Dragon offers great neutral coverage. Dragon in general has excellent neutral coverge by itself. But water is superior. Electric/Water hits more SE and, with Ice Beam (which all waters get) it is unresisted outside of Shedinja. Electric/Dragon still has to deal with Magnezone walling it.
Bug has good SE coverage. It can kill off annoying things like Celebi that plague electric types. But water is superior. Water can take out things with ease that electric can't even hit. Water also keeps Heatran out, who can come in on both STAB Dragon and Bug.
OU's Water is Super Effective against that Electric isn't
Infernape
Heatran
Hippowdon
Mamoswine
Gliscor
Rhyperior
Donphan
Dugtrio
Fidgit
Tyranitar
Of those, Dugtrio and Donphan are fairly irrevlevent, due to their rarity, and in Dugtrio's case, fraility. However, Heatran, Infernape and T-tar are HUGE! They are all in the top ten. As I previously stated, Ice Beam can be auto-included as this is a Water type. Water/Electric/Ice hits seven types SE, including Dragon, Ground, Water, and Flying.
Also... water is neutral to SR!!! No problem there!
Electric/Water is weak to Ground and Grass. Thats it. 2 Weakness, and Grass is fairly uncommon. People say that Breloom and Celebi are so common. Well Salmence, who hits Electric/Dragon SE with Outrage and Draco Meteor is number 2 most used in March on SU. Sixteen THOUSAND six hundred ninty-one more Mences were used than Celebi and Breloom combined! 16,000! Don't bother me with Breloom and Celebi!
Electric/Bug and Electric/Dragon are both versitle. They could go both offensive or defensive. But Electric/Water is STILL superior. Offensively, it provides more SE Coverage than Dragon and equivalent to that of Bug. But SE hits on Dark and Psychic are much less impressive as Ground and Fire. It has less weakness than Dragon, and equal to bug. But Fire and Rock weakness can be crippling. While Ground may be bad, the water type shuts down most STAB users, and Grass isn't that great to begin with. Water/Electric/Ice hits EVERYTHING... minus an irrelevant Sheddy, but a common Magnezone and a rare (but more common than Sheddy) Steelix shut down the other combos. Electric/Bug is shut down by Gliscor as well.
In conclusion, Electric/Dragon and Electic/Bug are good types. In fact, the would be my next 2 choices after water. But water takes the good things from both of them, and adds some goodness of its own. Water is clearly the way to go.
So you don't want a type because it's effective? That's pretty poor.
Water offers the best mix of offensive and defensive possibilities before the bias polls. As noted above (and throughout the thread) Water/Electric has wonderous coverage. "Oh noes it no hit grass." So one VERY uncommon typing isn't hit neutrally. Electric/Water is awful, right? You people really blew up the littlest thing (the failure to hit the ever oh so mofoing common grass types) and never let it go. Any excuse to deny the efficiency of the typing.
And again, if CAP8 is light, Grass Knot won't do much regardless of SE status, making the grass weakness pretty nonexistant.
Water offers the best mix of offensive and defensive possibilities before the bias polls. As noted above (and throughout the thread) Water/Electric has wonderous coverage. "Oh noes it no hit grass." So one VERY uncommon typing isn't hit neutrally. Electric/Water is awful, right? You people really blew up the littlest thing (the failure to hit the ever oh so mofoing common grass types) and never let it go. Any excuse to deny the efficiency of the typing.
And again, if CAP8 is light, Grass Knot won't do much regardless of SE status, making the grass weakness pretty nonexistant.
Don't make stupid posts like fire would be cool, if you're not going to give reasons for your idea, you shouldn't be posting. I think that electric/dragon is a great idea. It has some nice resistances and excellent coverage. My problem with electric/bug is the SR weakness, yes I know some offensive pokemon don't mind it, but we don't know whether it will be offensive or defensive yet. I rarely use any pokemon that is weak to SR because of that. I have recently been using Salamence, and it's ability to sweep is hampered by Sr, even if it is coming in on a resisted attack it's health goes too low so it can only defeat one or two pokemon when it might usually sweep three or four.
So I am supporting dragon and I just think having an SR weakness will not be good for any CAP Pyroaks popularity kinda shows that.
So I am supporting dragon and I just think having an SR weakness will not be good for any CAP Pyroaks popularity kinda shows that.
From a design stand point I've been partial to Electric-Dragon for sometime, and competitively dragon is a solid type with a good number of resists and is a decent attacking type. This typing gives it only three weaknesses and none 4x.
6 | Starmie | 388 | 19.54
14 | Arghonaut | 259 | 13.04
21 | Vaporeon | 214 | 10.78
23 | Gyarados | 200 | 10.07
30 | Swampert | 178 | 8.96
37 | Kingdra | 108 | 5.44
42 | Empoleon | 250 | 3.22
46 | Suicune | 67 | 3.37
55 | Tentacruel | 35 | 1.76
Water-types are SURE everywhere...
14 | Arghonaut | 259 | 13.04
21 | Vaporeon | 214 | 10.78
23 | Gyarados | 200 | 10.07
30 | Swampert | 178 | 8.96
37 | Kingdra | 108 | 5.44
42 | Empoleon | 250 | 3.22
46 | Suicune | 67 | 3.37
55 | Tentacruel | 35 | 1.76
Water-types are SURE everywhere...
Water is meh. Don't we already have 40+ water types, including Lanturn and Starmie? Which already use the Water/Electric combo?
Water/Electric's coverage isn't that impressive unless this has mucho special attack, Tyranitar still eats Surfs for breakfast and can come back with Earthquake. If it is more physical based then it needs Volt Tackle since Thunderpunch has proven lacking even on Electivire. Thunderpunch/Waterfall reminds me of the Poliwrath dilema of weak STABs.
Salamence is a non issue. STAB Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor will KO it just as dead as 4x Ice Beam. (unSTAB Ice Beam = 380, STAB Dragon Pulse = 270, STAB Draco Metor = 420). Water/Electric is walled by Grass and Lanturn, and again, short of large attack boosts will fare just as well as Electric/Dragon against Swampert.
To be honest I'd rather have Electric/Dragon/Fire than Electric/Water/Ice as my offensive combination. Nothing stops us from giving Fire moves to an Elec/Water but by the same token nothing stops up from giving Water or Ice moves to an Electric/Dragon.
Arghonaut has already popularized Grass type attackers, we need not give them more incentive to hang around.
Water/Electric's coverage isn't that impressive unless this has mucho special attack, Tyranitar still eats Surfs for breakfast and can come back with Earthquake. If it is more physical based then it needs Volt Tackle since Thunderpunch has proven lacking even on Electivire. Thunderpunch/Waterfall reminds me of the Poliwrath dilema of weak STABs.
Salamence is a non issue. STAB Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor will KO it just as dead as 4x Ice Beam. (unSTAB Ice Beam = 380, STAB Dragon Pulse = 270, STAB Draco Metor = 420). Water/Electric is walled by Grass and Lanturn, and again, short of large attack boosts will fare just as well as Electric/Dragon against Swampert.
To be honest I'd rather have Electric/Dragon/Fire than Electric/Water/Ice as my offensive combination. Nothing stops us from giving Fire moves to an Elec/Water but by the same token nothing stops up from giving Water or Ice moves to an Electric/Dragon.
Arghonaut has already popularized Grass type attackers, we need not give them more incentive to hang around.
Aw Gen what do you have against Gyrados and Starmie, they are water to.=(
Knew I was forgetting two pokemon!
so tentacruel and empoleon don't exist? man that's harsh. what did they ever do to you?
also, anyone else find it amusing that hydro is supporting water?
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all that aside, i'm actually glad we are all sticking to our guns as hard as we are. this is one of the few times that we have 3 different possible secondary types that would all be amazing, and though i support bug, its good to know that even if many of us don't get the exact one we want we will still have a good typing.
also, anyone else find it amusing that hydro is supporting water?
.....
all that aside, i'm actually glad we are all sticking to our guns as hard as we are. this is one of the few times that we have 3 different possible secondary types that would all be amazing, and though i support bug, its good to know that even if many of us don't get the exact one we want we will still have a good typing.
Not exactly fair to the typing; A bug secondary has the potential access to Pin Missile, regardless of it's ability, so it could be a 1hko on Suicide Lead Azelfs.
Water is probably my second vote, but by a bit off. I enjoy the idea of bug much more, as we have so many Water types as is. One of the big peeves of Dragon typing is that (what it seems like to me at least) Dragon gets a large following in the Caps I stop in by, by merit of it being cool and not done before. I remember this was a big case in Fidgit's development, so I just can't bring myself to care for Dragon when it won't specifically be the superior typing for the concept.
Which helps further the case of Cap8 having Bug secondary typing, allowing it resistance, and therefore synergy, with Arghonaut <3
Forgot about Pin Missile. It's not a great move though, even assuming Skill Link (which isn't guaranteed and would need to be for Pin Missile to really be at all useful), since it still has 85% accuracy and does 14 per hit, coming to only 70 power with it hitting all five times, and thus moves like Megahorn and X-Scissor being more useful in most situations beyond suicide leads such as Azelf. It's there, but even if given it really wouldn't see too much use.
Synergry with Arghonaut would be great, wouldn't it? But, most of the Pokemon that use Grass type attacks aren't Grass type. Celebi, Pyroak, and Ludicolo are currently the only pokemon in CAP that have access to a STAB Grass move. Zapdos, Togekiss, and Bronzong, and sometimes Magnezone also run Grass moves, but as you can see, there is a lack of a solid Grass Pokemon who is using STAB, especially against Arghonaut.
I'm still in support of Grass right now; Dragon gets absolutely NO support moves, and Electric only gets Thunder Wave (I'm aware that it could get Yawn, BP, Sub, Roar, etc, but some Status or other beneficial moves like Leech Seed or Curse would be nice.)
Dragon also resists grass no? and both are resistant to fire, not to mention Electric Dragon is 4x resistant to Electric which has even better synergy with Arghonaut.
The point's not to make the Perfect Poke; I don't think another OU Dragon type is needed. Heck, there's only 1 UU Dragon: Altaria. Compare that to how many poor UU/NU Grass, Poison, and Bug types there are.
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