Neutrals

[Mekkah]

itt I go through neutrals of past games and analyze their possibilities, intentions, effects, etc. This is to reinforce the point that neutrals should not be put into a game lightly: they require careful rethinking a dozen times, and if you're not sure about them, you should leave them out and put more power into your weakest faction instead. Neutrals can be extremely harmful to your game. Not just wolves. This thread is not for whining about how broken Cthulhu and GGFan were.

I'll start with a bad neutral of my own, as to show that I fully realize I made this mistake as well!

Fire Emblem Mafia

Tag Playing Kid

Dear GreenPikachu,
You are a kid.

Biography
You're way too small for this whole war/god/kickass sword business, so you and a friend went to play a fun game instead. You call it "tag", even though it is different from normal tag games. It is more like these games those older kids play, with those graffiti things. Yeah, you know what I mean. You brush your mark on some wall, and it is now "yours". If someone puts their mark over it, it's "theirs". Whoever gets the most walls wins!

This game is just like that, but instead of walls, you use people. And instead of that toxic stuff they call graffiti, you just use paint.

Your color is red.

Night Role
Every night, you may PM the host with "Night X - Red Tag USER1 and USER2". You will sneak up on them in their sleep and put a bit of red paint on some part of their body. They will notice it, but likely won't think anything big of it, and continue with their boring war business. If someone has been tagged by your opponent (who uses the color green) before you got there, you will simply paint over their tag. You can only tag alive people. If a person who is tagged dies, everyone will know they had that tag, but it will remain counted.

You started out by painting your own nose red, and your opponent did the same by tagging his nose green. You are able to tag your opponent, he can do the same to you, and you can retag yourself to your own color if you want.

Once in the game, you may PM the host with "Night X - Check Up". You will receive a tally of who has been tagged green, and who has been tagged red. You cannot tag anyone the night you use Check Up.

Day Role
Since you are just a kid, you are unable to vote in the lynch that the Greil Mercenaries will be holding. However, you can try just to give people the idea you're actually a grown-up whose vote counts.

Gold
You have 40G.

Notes
If either you or your opponent are about to get killed or lynched, your mothers will be incredibely worried and pull you both inside before anything terrible could happen. At that point, the game is over for both of you. In the case of a tie of amount of tagged people, the person who was about to get killed or lynched loses the game.

You know the Smogon name of your opponent, and he knows yours. You are playing against cookie.

Alliance
Neutral

Custom Win Condition
20 pts - The total amount of people (dead or alive) tagged red is greater than the amount of people tagged green. Have fun!

Stupid role. My intention was to scare people who got marked, and to see one of these ally with one faction and another with, well, another. But the small fun positives from there get grossed by the negative. First off, they're kind of a pain to keep track of. They're also not really playing mafia, they're just tagging people. GreenPikachu did end up doing something significant: he bought the Ragnell (vigilanté item) and gave it to moi, a member of the Lopt Sect. Why? He felt like it. He had no reason to do it at all. They just collabbed. That's what happens when you put someone on their own with no extremely harmful intentions (like a wolf). Well, sometimes people with harmful intentions do it too, but that's because they're Shiv/Jackal/Avatar. :p

At least I had the decency to null all non-wolf/Volke neutral votes so they couldn't screw over the village. Please, please, please, severely limit or nullify a neutral's vote if they're not something like a wolf, or extremely inclined to work with one faction or another.

Megaman Mafia

I don't feel like searching for these role PMs, but Megaman had a couple of guys in there that could literally pack up and go to the Bahama's, then if they come back four weeks later they'll probably have won by now. Even if they're randkilled. There was Epsilon (Fishy), who just needed one of the mafia leaders Sigma (Hip) to die to win, and there was even a faction of three guys (Kumar, Andenken and someone I forgot) who won if Megaman X (strong village role) died. Sit back and compare this to the win conditions of every other faction. For example, the other mafia need Megaman X, Sigma AND all the players aligned with them to die. Why do these four get to win so easily? No offense to moot, but those are exampls of what I like to call: stupid neutrals.

You-Choose-It Mafia

Michael Bates (dak) is a good example of a stupid neutral as well. Almost everyone had two WCs: the normal faction one, and some CWC that generally involved posting in a certain way. dak only had to host RPSI matches to win (judged by the host, which allowed the host to skew the game...bad). Well, he couldn't really win or lose the game...everyone else could call themselves a winner if they eliminated all other factions (which theoretically gives 10 pts), but dak could only earn points 3 at a time. Would you call him a winner because he hosted 4 matches (read: stayed alive for 4 nights without getting hooked) because that gets him 12 points? Well, dak would think so. This role really felt like an unfinished concept.

I'm leaving the really old classic big games alone because they were generally meant to be crazy and stick to their theme (DBZ Mafia) or were just very experimental in general.

 

[billymills]

I don't think the Tag playing Kid was all that bad as a role. The only problem was that you gave it money for some unknown reason. Apart from that it was playing it's own game, and was hardly anything more than a noisy NPC (which is what NPCs should be, if they're going to exist).

Megaman mafia had so many faults, there is absolutely no reason to specify its neutrals.

Other games, such as simpsons and pokemon had really problematic neutrals that served to do very little. SD, Fishin, and I from Simpsons; Fishin from Pokemon. I think the solution here is just to prevent Fishin from being a neutral?

I think neutrals are an important part of the game, it's probably possible to keep some (in low amounts) as long as they can't join a specific side. (2-4 Neutrals that balance eachother out, so that one joins each faction or something.) Alternatively, try to make their effect on the game as negligible as possible (like the taggers).

 

[jumpluff]

Bad Character Mafia

Not to single my cousin out, I liked this game, but blah blah I think we all know what this thread is for, since Mekkah and I made it re. the discussion that I brought up in the 2:1 thread.

Dear evan,
You are Dubulous, my "co-host".

You've been pretty lazy in the making of this mafia so far, and I don't think you did that much other than suggest stupid stuff. However, you're an above average mafia player, which still doesn't compensate for the lack of work you've done, but that's alright. By PMing Thorns 'Night X - Restrict USER', you will enforce a posting restriction on that user. Specify what the posting restriction is in the main body of the PM. Nothing over the top or too restrictive, as we want that user to have fun too! However, since you're an inactive fuck, your opinion is worthless and any vote you make in the day lynch is worth zero.

You have a neutral alliance. You win if you impose four humorous posting restrictions on four different users.

"Yeah, I'll write some role PMs tonight. I promise."

The Dubulous role, played by evan in Bad Character Mafia. Now, like Thorns said in his postgame, this was a troll role, and it was pretty hilarious (as well as inadvertently benefiting Mekkah and letting me do my Blingee gimmick), but it's still a prime example of 'harmless neutrals can be harmful'. First of all, this role was essentially a free win, assuming evan could survive four nights. Free wins are pretty lame; the player doesn't have to work remotely hard to get the win and. as such, has nothing much to lose. Players with nothing to lose can do what they like and screw with the game almost unchecked.

As for the actual effects of evan in the game: Mekkah got slapped with 'you must ask for claims in every post', which indirectly led to Mekkah leading the village for a night, though that wasn't really evan's fault / Fishy had to post all her posts in recordings, which basically removed her from the game since she didn't want to go to all the effort or something / I had to post in art-only (didn't really affect anything, I just talked on IRC and posted blingees in the thread) / FinnSpaghetti had to run all his posts through translationparty.com. evan had the sense to target Finn when he was dead, since Thorns sensibly picked someone with more maturity than a monkey to have that role, but as he was the village leader when he was alive, that could've been pretty inconvenient, even damaging. Thorns was also smart enough to make evan's vote not count, seeing as evan could've just voted with whomever he liked. Overall, I don't think evan's presence was very harmful, but had potential to mess things up for a bunch of people, especially as he could use his role after death / being removed from the game (no-no). So, yeah, luckily this didn't screw with the game more than it did, but it was still a really bad role to include, in my opinion.

Dear RB Golbat,
You are Vergil, Dante's older brother.

I actually enjoyed your character, you were a good contrast to Dante. I didn't mind your evil personality too. However, there is one thing that makes me consider you a bad character. That's all instances of you in combat. I had so much trouble beating you in Devil May Cry 3, and the Vergil mode fights against Dante were subpar. I was basically fighting you, but palette-swapped. Thanks to your demonic powers, you are able to control lesser demons (I don't think you can in the games, but bear with me). You have control over the Seven Deadly Sins - Envy, Gluttony, Greed, Lust, Pride, Sloth and Wrath. However, for the purposes of this game, you may only control three. By PMing Thorns 'Night 0 - Devil Trigger', you will assume your demon form, absorb three Deadly Sins, and gain their powers. Specify which three Deadly Sins you wish to control in the main body of the PM.

You are currently in the possession of a Hidden Blade. The Hidden Blade marks you as an Assassin. It is in your best interests to hold onto it.

You have a neutral alliance. You win if you survive, but you will lose if more than 5 Appalling Characters are alive at the end of the game.

"Jackpot."

Here are the sins: Envy (role check), Gluttony (immunity to information roles targeting him), Greed (thief), Lust (hooker, duh), Pride (mayor), Sloth (one time non-passive safeguard), Wrath (silencer).

This neutral was much worse. Firstly, he had access to some pretty damn powerful stuff, secondly, he could vote, and thirdly, his powers and item gave him the ability to decide the game. His Hidden Blade made him immune to the villager's vigilanté, meaning, bar a lynch, the village had no way to remove him, while his win condition was somewhat dangerous to them. With access to roles that could hook the important roles of each faction, decide lynches, etc., RBG did actually end up in the position where he decided the game. Fortunately for Mekkah and me, he picked the Useless Characters, but he could have gone with any faction, though he had slightly less motivation to help the ACs win for obvious reasons. Given that the village did not even have a proper mayor themselves, their control over the lynch was quite shaky... I actually like the additional part of his win condition, seeing as it gives him a goal to reach, but 'win if you survive', especially with those powers, is just asking for trouble. RBG didn't even pick the best sin combination, and he still had a massive impact on the game that was, in the end, up to whim at the end of the day. Not a good thing for the game.


---

Also, as a devious, my next review will be fishinrachi. By the way, wholeheartedly agree with Mekkah about neuts voting. Unless you really feel the neut should have a vote, please consider why they should even have one and the effects of it as such.

 

[zorbees]

Just for clarification, is it okay (as in, a well-designed role) for neutrals to decide what faction wins if they have some sort of CWC?

For example, I was toying with the idea of making a neutral OTU resurrector who wins if his target is alive and wins at the end of the game. This role obviously has a lot of power and could decide what faction wins, but he isn't there to just troll the game. This role would have to play strategically and put thought into who is revived, unless one faction is dominating.

I would just like some feedback on this question because I can see both sides of the issue. On one hand, it seems unfair to the losing factions that they couldn't sway a neutral into working with them, but on the other hand, they had the same opportunity to work with him as the other factions and the role is designed in thought that the neutral would be able to work with any faction it chose.

 

[jumpluff]

No, it's not okay imo to make it up to the neutral who wins. Neutral negotiation is important, especially because we have a habit of making our neutrals game-swaying factors, but what's the point of playing if a neutral can just pick the faction he likes best and have them win? I think that neut isn't as bad as all that though seeing as he has to keep his target alive. (Though now you've sort of spoiled it...)

 

[FinnRagetti]

I agree that neutrals should be designed to avoid swaying the balance of power in the game towards one side. I'm redesigning a game I thought of previously, thanks to the discussions from the 2 mafia v. 1 village game, and I was thinking of either a 3-4 party game. Whichever set up I choose, I was considering making neutrals aligned with two factions against the rests, in addition to the wolves persent. What do you think of semi-partial neutrals who are bent against 1-2 factions? How would that in your minds sway the balance of the game, as long as each faction has a neutral against it?

 

[cookie]

My idea for neutrals in my mafia game was to give them win conditions that forced them against collaboration: I had a goalkeeper role that needed to block one kill from each team, and once successful is removed from the game. Even better, I had Death, who had to curse one of each team (if that player gets targeted by any role, they die), so the whole killing aspect would also make things harder for the neutral not to mention having to co-operate with both mafias and village. You could still have a situation where Death kills a vanillager and ends up offing key members of the mafia, though.

It also helps if you give these kinds of roles to people who can be trusted to play properly.

 

[Thorns]

bad character mafia more like bad neutral mafia HEH

 

[Staraptor Call]

Dear Staraptor Call,

You are Kirby.

Sucking, blowing, and swallowing - it's all in a day's work for you. You also don't wear much clothing. Sounds like a typical Hollywood personality to me! You were also in a game called "Kirby Superstar" and for me to pass up a chance to abuse that pun would be as unlikely as Chris Brown passing up the chance to abuse Rihanna...but I digress. Anyway, you somehow crashed your warp star into Uwe Boll's house. Unfortunately, you survived the impact and were forced to star in his newest monstrosity of a film, which takes place in the North Pole.

Since you have the ability to copy powers, every DAY you may PM reyscarface and Eo Ut Mortus "Day X - Swallow USER". You will swallow that user and copy his/her powers. At night, you may use the power you copied during the day by sending reyscarface and Eo Ut Mortus "Night X - Activating stored power". After using a power, you will lose it. If you manage to copy 5 different powers and use all of them successfully, you will summon Captain Planet, and together, you will assassinate Uwe Boll and escape. Thanks to your mighty Dragoon, you have the fastest priority in this game as well.

You are holding the Super Candy. This item will let you survive a lynch or a kill once; it will then disappear. Be careful, though, because even though you may be the only one that can use it, it can still be stolen.

You are allied with yourself. You win if you can copy and successfully use five different powers.

This was the role I had in Superstars Mafia, and it was also a bad neutral role. It was laughably easy to win with due to the Super Candy, and I basically got to decide which team I wanted to support. True to form, I sucked up to the village leader, acted as an ability inspector, and used my Super Candy absorbing the Tackle that would have killed a village member. Neutrals that get to choose their own teams should be avoided; good neutrals should be forced to work for themselves alone. For example, the best role I put into Luddite Mafia:

Dear GTS,
You are Assistant.

Everyone in the town seems to hire you in some way, whether just for help with their work or for something more sinister. You are always around when people need you, and have gained a reputation in the town for being helpful. You’re just in it for the money, though, since you would be living on the rough streets if not for the people you work for. In the current war between the villagers and General Ludd’s Army, you don’t know whom to support and are secretly being paid by both sides.

Every night you may PM me saying <Night X: Assist user>. During the next night, if your target is still alive, the target will be able to use their power twice in that night since you will be helping them.

You are on your own. You win if you successfully assist both a killing role and a village power role at least twice.

EDIT: There was no vigilante except in the unlikely case that one of the twins was night-killed. This means that the Assistant basically had to go to the mafia and wolf to assist killing roles.

 

[moi]

You are on your own. You win if you successfully assist both a killing role and a village power role at least twice.

While this may seem more ideal for a neutral, it still manages to fall under the pretense of being "bad". This is in the sense that (this is speaking from someone who never looked at Luddite mafia) a role that doubles up on killing can be taken advantage of via any side (unless the village had no vigilante) whereas a villager role must be specified. In this sense, it is slanted towards a village. This could be seen as fulfilling the meaning of having a "team".

 

[jumpluff]

I agree with moi, nothing more for me to say there. In response to billy:

I think neutrals are an important part of the game, it's probably possible to keep some (in low amounts) as long as they can't join a specific side. (2-4 Neutrals that balance eachother out, so that one joins each faction or something.) Alternatively, try to make their effect on the game as negligible as possible (like the taggers).

Neutrals are important because we make them important, just like 2:1 is standard because we use it. They're not all bad; they keep things interesting and allow the host to exercise their creativity. But on the other hand, their roles tend to be important because of their unique effect on the game. I hate them as a concept because they detract from 'your team must play well to win'. It's probably possible to balance them more, but balances are rarely hit. (Agree, though, taggers were good, apart from the whole money thing. I think FE implemented neutrals pretty well comparatively, though I'm not being biased, because I barely had anything to do with balancing the game. :P)

Another point that I want to bring up is that neutrals should be removed as soon as they have won or irretrievably lost the game. There's no point leaving someone who can't win in the game or who can't lose, seeing as they can just screw around as they please. So useless and even increases the damage they cause just by being around, free to troll and to perform swindles, to mess with others' chances of winning, or just in general, no point leaving them in anyway...

 

[billymills]

Neutrals are important because we make them important, just like 2:1 is standard because we use it. They're not all bad; they keep things interesting and allow the host to exercise their creativity. But on the other hand, their roles tend to be important because of their unique effect on the game. I hate them as a concept because they detract from 'your team must play well to win'. It's probably possible to balance them more, but balances are rarely hit. (Agree, though, taggers were good, apart from the whole money thing. I think FE implemented neutrals pretty well comparatively, though I'm not being biased, because I barely had anything to do with balancing the game. :P)

Important in that they make the game more fun. I think a 1:1 would get rather dull if there weren't any neutrals on the side, no matter how useless. However, I suppose this could be placated by inclusion of millers, death millers, NPCs and the like. Not that we need the power or number of 'other' roles we currently have, but with the overly powered night actions we currently see, there has to be something in between 'good' and 'bad'.

 

[Exarius]

Something that needs to be also considered is multifaction games, style MGS/Viva (to an extenct). The WCs can be made so that the neutrals could work with one faction, maybe manipulate 1 and full hostility on one. Maybe even be manipulated by some faction. Since I wasn't around when Viva was, and don't know much about it, I concentrate on MGS.

Now, first of all, we had 3 neutrals, alongside the 5 factions. Each of them won with different people and factions, and if they figured it out and wanted it, they could have worked together (LN <-> shade, fully possible to work together, only difference was that shade had to kill FOXHOUND, otherwise same WC; shade <-> askaninjask, shade could have (and did) manipulate aska and possibly win; it didn't happen in the end, but the possibility was there). They worked with some factions (iirc LN worked with Inno before his death), which they pretty much was forced to: Only aska had firepower from neutrals and he had a good defensive network, but he couldn't gather info at all. shade was a manipulator, but with only a decent protection (every other night) in reality. LN was THE info-gatherer with good voting power to add, but no protection. If they tried to go solo, I don't know how it would have gone, but I don't see how they could have won if they tried to win alone (expect for aska, the "true" wolf).

I might add something later, but I have to go. Just some food for thoughts right now.

Also, the role PMs of the aforementioned neutrals:

shade

You are Solid Snake.

You are an experienced soldier, who fought in countless wars, and stopped many Metal Gears. After having fought many formidable opponents, even the person considered the "Greatest warrior of 20th Century" and emerging victorious, you retired into the Alaskan wilderness to raise sled hounds. You have been called from retirement to aid the Governement in the past, but this time you decided to go solo, since they proved during the Shadow Moses Incident that they can't be trusted. Your reputation is also legendary, and you are known by some as "the man who makes the impossible possible". It's up to you to prove that what they say is true.

During the night, you can submit "Night X - Use ketchup on USER1 and Mk.23 SOCOM on USER2". You will empty a bottle of tomato sauce on USER1; if that player was the target of a killer, said killer will be fooled into thinking he did his job but USER1 will stay alive. At the same time, you will use your signature weapon to shoot USER2 in the back. You can't shoot when you're not using ketchup because that would ruin your cover.

Alternatively, during the night, you can submit "Night X - Look on the back of the CD box to find FREQUENCY". You will shatter the fourth wall and somehow manage to gain info about that FREQUENCY, thanks to a mysterious entity guiding you along your mission. At the end of the night, you will receive the role name and the alliance associated with that FREQUENCY.

Your CODEC frequency is the following: 141.13

You know the following frequencies:
140.01 - Toothache [Gray Fox, Mercs]
140.66 - Altair [Francis, US Gov]
141.28 - Veedrock [Kenneth Baker, Innocents]
141.39 - askaninjask [Liquid Snake, Neutral]
[+all the FOXHOUND frequencies and smogon names]

You can send up to 2 ISACs during the game.

You are alone in this conflict. You win if all the members of the US Government, the Undercover Agents, FOXHOUND, the Mercenaries and Liquid Snake are dead.

askaninjask

You are Liquid Snake.

You are the genetic son of "The Greatest Warrior of the 20th Century", Big Boss. However, you've been told that your genes are inferior to Solid Snake's - but that won't stop you. You have one goal: to prove your superiority, despite any genetic nonsense. If that involves obtaining the Metal Gear REX-2, so be it!

During the night, you can submit "Night X - Attack USER in a Hind D". You will launch 4 anti-tank missiles at USER. No one can survive that - not even if they have so-called "superior" genes. Your target will die.

Additionally, once, during the day, you can submit "Day X - Request the remains of USER". You will start a rebellion in order to get the remains of your target. Panic will ensue and any lynch going on at that time will be cancelled; instead, USER will be killed, because if they're still alive you obviously can't have their remains.

Alternatively, once, during the day, you can submit "Day X - SNAKE! SNAAAAAAAKE!". You will steal this famous desperate cry and if your genetic brother is being lynched, the lynch will be cancelled. After all, he is your brother, you can forget your grudge just for one day... and besides, you'd want to kill him yourself!

Since you are using a Hind D, you are also protected from most weapons. You will survive the first time a killer tries to take you down, if it ever happens.

Your CODEC frequency is the following: 141.39

You know the following frequency:
141.13 - [smogon name] - Solid Snake

You are alone in this conflict. You win if all the members of the US Government, the Undercover Agents, the Mercenaries, the Innocents and Otacon are dead.

LonelyNess

You are Otacon.

After being forced to make the Metal Gear REX and later, to destroy it, you left with Solid Snake to stop other Metal Gears from being built. You are an incredible engineer, and you will use your talents to stop ArmsTech. Now you just hope that all your gadgets and your remarkable intelligence will be enough to stop this crisis you helped start (and that you'll be able to do so without wetting your pants, of course)...

During the night, you can submit "Night X - Sneak up and listen to USER/FREQUENCY". You will either use your Stealth Camouflage suit to sneak behind USER or hack a CODEC FREQUENCY; in both cases, you will find out your target's full role PM.

Additionally, during the night, you can submit "Night X - Broadcast a message". You will make an announcement that will be revealed at the beginning of the following day. Please write the announcement in the body of the PM; it must start with the words "Today we will lynch USER" and can't contain more than 30 words.

Additionally, during the day, you can submit "Day X - Scrambled vote against USER". You will use your modified CODEC to send a vote that no one but you will be aware of. You can also vote in the thread as everyone else: you have two votes. Note that your private vote will be sent from your frequency.

Additionally, twice during the game, you can submit "Day/Night X - false ISAC FREQUENCY". Your target will receive what looks like a normal ISAC, but if they decide to enter their key, the message will instantly destroy itself. You will see your target's key but they won't receive yours.

Your CODEC frequency is the following: 141.06

You know that the following frequencies are assigned to soldiers involved in the conflict:
[all the frequencies assigned to players, with no smogon names]

You can send up to 2 ISACs during the game, not counting the false ones.

You are alone in this conflict. You win if all the members of the US Government, the Undercover Agents, the Mercenaries and Liquid Snake are dead, and you managed to use your two false ISACs.

 

[Alchemator]

Haha if Remoraid had finished I could talk about neutrals :P Coronis died though so I think I can talk about his [former] role.

Hide

Dear Coronis, you are Marcus Junius Brutus.

You are one of the more prominent conspirators against what you believe to be the oppression of Gaius Julius Caesar along with Cassius and Casca. Despite being scheming and emo (though not as emo as your wife who decided to stab herself in the leg) you are a clever and level-headed person, displaying many qualities of the Magnanimous Man. You have joined the Remoraid Mafia not just because you quite fancy Fish and Chips right now, but for a specific purpose – one that you will only commit because you love Rome more.

At night, you may PM Alchemator and Macle with “Night X – sending Casca to spy on <user>”. If <user> is Julius Caesar, you will be notified; this will be a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer.

If you find Caesar you may, at night, PM Alchemator and Macle with “Night X – Assassinating <user> at the Capitol”. If <user> is Julius Caesar, <user> will be killed. This is a one time use ability.

You are allied with yourself.

You win if you kill Julius Caesar.

Basically he had to find and kill Caesar, who was the village bodyguard (also dead, no sweat). He had multiple y/n inspects and a single kill action that let him win. Though this role was designed to simply be a free agent wishing to accomplish his own goals in the game [which is how all neutrals should be], the fact that he had to kill the village bodyguard (who couldn't self-protect) already imbalances the game - you have a neutral specifically going out to kill a power role in the village.

I do feel that neutrals add a very interesting factor to the game though, and their removal would be sad (I might talk about other neutrals from Remoraid Mafia if there are any when it finishes).

 

[Anachronism]

Any thoughts on the Max Carnage neutrals, especially the lynchpin killers?

 

[Jackal]

I thought for sure mekkah was going to tear apart moi's role in viva but he did not :o

There's nothing worse in mafia than a badly designed neutral, because it ruins the game for everyone that is not that neutral!

It really was no fun thinking so hard in Pokemon Mafia and staying up late to vote etc only to have the game be 100% decided on which team the neutral allied with.

Similarly, it was also probably not very fun for everyone to try so hard in YCI mafia when I was GGFan.

I firmly believe that there should almost never be a neutral who's win condition is not "last man standing" or if there is, do not give them a vote or a kill or a hook or anything that can fuck over any team (unless as cookie said they have to fuck over each team equally).

Mafias should be designed so that no non wolf neutral can have any impact whatsoever on which team wins by means of collaborating.

Also mekkah, please continue to remain on my case for collabing it is really funny still! Especially since the last time I did it was Super Mafia!!

 

[Hipmonlee]

I think neutrals are actually pretty important for false claiming.. But you do need to be extremely careful how you manage them..

But here is a new Hipmonlee-mafia-that-may-never-happen spoiler: the mafia will need to kill everyone not on their team in order to win.

Have a nice day.

 

[Outlaw]

Can't you wait to make this until you can tear my neutrals apart?

 

[Staraptor Call]

Just a small note: Don't give the wolf any sort of lynchproof. If the wolf is lynched and has one, then the wolf knows he will die soon. So, with the wolf's win condition pretty much made impossible, the wolf gets to help whichever team he wants before he dies. Consider Nintendo Mafia, where Genny knew he was going to die after the Garlic Bomb revealed him and prevented the lynch. Genny got to decide which faction to help, and helped the village by killing me. The wolf should never be given a onetime LPV, because a wolf who has used it up is basically a neutral who has already lost but is still in the game.

 

[assassinfred]

Any thoughts on the Max Carnage neutrals, especially the lynchpin killers?

yeah, the Maximum Carnage Mafia Neutrals were brutal, with an unblockable kill AND win by killing the lynchpin.

 

[polelover44]

blue_light

Dear blue_light
You are Boba Fett

You are a human clone from Kamino. Your “father” was notorious Mandalorian bounty hunter Jango Fett, who died fighting in the Clone Wars. You happen to have a grudge against smuggler Han Solo, who has escaped your grasp.

Each night, PM polelover44 with "Night X - searching <user> for identification". That night, you will find the name of <user>'s role.

You also hold the Thermal Detonator. You may PM polelover44 at night with "Night X - throw Detonator at <user>" either the Detonator will not go off, and <user> will have the detonator, or the detonator will go off, and <user> will die.

You are allied with yourself. You win if Han Solo is lynched.

I gave b_l what I found to be a pretty interesting role in SW Mafia. Basically, he wins if he manages to get Han Solo lynched. It wasn't played that well because he accidentally killed his target, but it makes for some interesting playing by whoever has this role.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

sigh...

What a terrible role. It's a role that has a FUCKTON of room for getting completely owned by mafia, own bad luck, and the whims of the village. On top of that, if the Mafia kills Han Solo, that role becomes the worst kind of role: One that cannot possibly win, but is not dead yet. Once a user is in that position, they pretty much have license to do everything they can to fuck up the game.

(also i happen to be buddies with blue_light and heard nothing but bitching about getting the shittiest role ever so yeah)

I've got a plan for a mafia soon that has a pretty neat roster of neutrals, so yeah. Won't be revealing too much but the neutral roles are actually kinda interesting in how they interact with the rest of the cast.

 

[FinnRagetti]

Polelover, your role wasn't bad, but the win condition was fail. It should have been "If Han Solo was killed by you or lynched" making it a little more fair to blue_light for scenarios like that.

 

[askaninjask]

Polelover, your role wasn't bad, but the win condition was fail. It should have been "If Han Solo was killed by you or lynched" making it a little more fair to blue_light for scenarios like that.

But then you just have a Megaman Fishy :|

Anyway, there are really two baseline rules for neutrals:

-Their win conditions must be achievable, but difficult.
-Make as few as possible.

As long as you follow those two guidelines, neutrals won't "fuck up" the game.

 

[Mekkah]

YCI fulfills both these criteria, and yet Michael Bates turned it upside down.

Actually that's kind of a lie since his WC wasn't exactly hard...since he had no real WC.