CAP 11 CAP 11 - Concept Assessment 1

[Mektar]

Pokemon Name: Shaymin (land)

Why this Pokemon: Shaymin has the same flexible stat spread as Celebi and Jirachi, but is overshadowed often due to its many weaknesses (being pure grass) and limited movepool. Sure it has Seed Flare for massive STAB sweeping potential and many support moves, but does anyone use it? Not really.

What are the possibilities: Shaymin would provide Flexibility (as stated by BMBob) to CAP 11, since Shaymin itself is flexible. If someone wanted a Cleric Shaymin with high defences, CAP 11 could be tailored as a sweeper. If someone else wanted a Shaymin sweeper, CAP 11 could be tailored as a supporter with high defences. Sounds promising, right? Well, CAP 11 would still have to cover for Shaymin's weaknesses, and Shaymin should be able to cover for CAP 11's weaknesses. It would also like to have a somewhat balenced stat spread to match with Shaymin's adaptability.

 

[Elevator Music]

OK I guess this kind of needs to be flat out stated, even though it's been touched upon here by a few users.

The hardest part about pulling off this concept will be making it so CAP11 doesn't end up boosting any pokemon other than the intended partner too much.

Which of course means that some pokemon are far better partner choices than others. The aforementioned example with Heracross is one of the better points. Chances are, by making the "perfect mate" for Heracross, we will undoubtedly be making life a LOT easier for Scizor and Lucario as well. If we went with Shaymin, the same would happen with Celebi. Boosting Zapdos would make Rotom-a a lot better (though of course if Salamence gets banned Zapdos will be really common and good anyways). <Water-type>..... lol

This would make me reluctant to throw support behind any pokemon with the fairly common issue of "walled to death by Steel-types/has trouble with Scizor/SR seems like the only thing keeping it back", because quite frankly, a shitload of pokemon lay claim to that. Honchkrow, Weavile, Staraptor, hell, even Drapion, would like it if Skarmory and Forretress and Scizor were nicely shut up. That's not to say these aren't valid or impossible options, however, because I really like Weavile.......

More unique pokemon with more unique problems seems like the easier route to go. Rhyperior seems cool, because even though you're boosting Tyranitar, it'd probably be plausible to make a pokemon that helps Rhyperior more than it helps Tar. Breloom and Empoleon also seem cool...

 

[acid_paradox]

I personally think an offensive core team that can effectively draw out/cover each other's weaknesses and 1-2HKO them would be much appreciated on several teams, what with all of the defensive combinations already in existence. I think it would be most beneficial for the two to have access to U-Turn, easing prediction while still racking up damage.

Pokemon Name: Celebi

Why this Pokemon: Celebi hasn't particularly seen a lot of use in the OU metagame, mostly due to it's sub-par typing, and heavy reliance on Hidden Power Fire. Celebi is weak to some of the most used pokémon in OU, most notably ScarfTar and Infernape. Celebi has access to U-Turn, meaning if you can predict correctly, a well-times U-Turn could change the tide of the match, and in tandem with another U-Turn user can keep a great offensive momentum. Celebi leaves large dents in several CAP pokémon and much of the OU metagame, including Gyarados, Vaporeon, Stratagem, Colossoil, Arghonaught, and Syclant via HP Fire or Leaf Storm. However, Celebi is still very weak to several of these pokémon's STAB attacks.

What are the possibilities: Paired with a pokémon with access to U-Turn with similar typing to Heatran, or else some other combination of typing that complements Celebi's weaknesses, pairing the two on a team could have a devastating effect when put into play. You could come in when possible with either Celebi or it's partner, then either U-Turn or attack, depending on the pokémon out. The bonus of having U-Turn on both Celebi and Celebi's partner (who both complement each other by countering each other's largest weaknesses) is that you can always have an answer to whatever threat is sent out. Also, if Celebi get's statused, Natural Cure can help keep the momentum of the sweep by U-Turning out to heal the status.

This doesn't mean that the combo would be invincible, obviously. When faced with a potent mixed wall with excellent recovery options you would have to resort to other options. Also, what with all of the switching in with U-Turn, your residual damage would build up considerably, especially if using Life Orb, so you would have to put your plan into effect at a key time in the match.

 

[NARFNra]

Pokemon Name: Celebi
(Rest Of Post)

So your suggestion is basically Heatran with U-Turn? that seems to be the only real point you suggested that Heatran does not have in it's typing and arsenal, and considering we're already using CeleTran as an example I find this a rather odd suggestion.

 

[reachzero]

I support toshimelonhead's nomination of Togekiss, based on the fact that Togekiss is very versatile, highly underrated Pokemon; if this CAP is its partner, we can take it in a variety of different directions:

1. Conventional partner, able to switch in on Togekiss' weaknesses, and vice-versa.

2. A Pokemon that either provides paralysis for Togekiss, allowing Togekiss to focus on using Nasty Plot, etc., or a Pokemon that capitalizes on paralysis provided by Togekiss.

3. A strong recipient for Baton Passed Nasty Plots; currently Swords Dance is far more popular to Baton Pass, due to the lack of good NP recipients by comparison.

Another factor that would be nice (though obviously not pivotal) regarding Togekiss is that Togekiss is actually very viable in full CAP, meaning the partnership would not need to end when playtesting does.

 

[acid_paradox]

So your suggestion is basically Heatran with U-Turn? that seems to be the only real point you suggested that Heatran does not have in it's typing and arsenal, and considering we're already using CeleTran as an example I find this a rather odd suggestion.

I was actually thinking of a different idea than the Heatran/Celebi combo, because hardly anybody uses the CeleTran combo anymore. What I was suggesting was something more offensively fast-paced than simply typing-complementary.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

I've adored the CAP project for weeks, and I've been waiting for CAP 11 to start to finally get involved. I have great expectations for this CAP, as I'm sure many others do as well. With that said, here's my nomination:

Pokemon Name: Abomasnow

Why this Pokemon: In the OU metagame, Hail Stall is a pretty underused team. Abomasnow, being the only Hail inducer in the game bar Snover, is thus essential to a Hail team. One of the very reasons that Hail Stall is unpopular is because of its dependence on Abomasnow, and the ability to easily shut it down through anything from Tyranitar to Infernape. While dedicated Hail Stall can run Pokemon like Kingdra or Heatran to cover resistances, or Rotom to spread status and help, the team still shoulders a massive reliance on Abomasnow.

But the reasons for this nomination are not purely OU and Hail Stall oriented. As we all know, Krilowatt has become one of the most powerful and frequently used CAP Pokemon lately, and not just because of its initial testing phase. He's got amazing bulk, great speed, and near-perfect utility and coverage. Abomasnow is a great counter, as he is neutral to or resists BoltBeam and Surf, three of the most common attacks on Krilowatt. Not only that, but Abomasnow's Hail can bring Blizzard up to 100% accuracy, making Syclant a much more viable choice in the CAP metagame. This CAP would raise Abomasnow usage, but the resulting metagame fluxes would also see a decrease in Krilowatt and an increase in Syclant appearances, thus creating a more balanced metagame. Abomasnow's Grass STAB puts large dents in Arghonaut and Krilowatt while its Ice typing stops Cyclohm and Colossoil in their tracks. I believe that this CAP's goal is to create a more balanced metagame instead of one composed of the few Pokemon seen time and again. Abomasnow and its partner's resistances and utility can help achieve this goal.But with a lot of resistances comes a lot of weaknesses, and Abomasnow will need a partner that's well-suited to come on in Abomasnow's counters with little to no difficulty. Resistances to Fire, Rock, and Fighting all come to mind.

What are the possibilities: Not only would a complement to Abomasnow give a raise in hail popularity, it would, as I said before, directly lower the usage of certain CAP pokemon while raising others, most notably Syclant and its incredibly deadly sweeping powers. It will account for a possible rise in the popularity of Scizor, Jirachi, and maybe even Infernape, but if our partner Pokemon is good enough, this will be a mild, if even noticable, factor. In addition, the CAP metagame has been extremely fast-paced from the beginning, and a Hail team will be the first real viable stall team on the CAP server.

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

Was thinking about throwing Dusknoir out there, but then I realized it would be rather too beneficial to Rotom-A as well. Instead I'm inclined to support the already-posted suggestion of Togekiss - it's rather unique in what it is and what it does, it's versatile, and is deserving of a boost in use and effectiveness....plus I'd love to see a Stallkiss set emerge thanks to some support from its mate (a little Spin support and it could certainly be pulled off).

 

[doominic77]

Pokemon Name: Gallade

Why this Pokemon: A question I ask often myself is why is Gallade BorderLine. With 125 Base Attack and it's typing leaving it with only two weaknesses (Ghost and Flying) which aren't even very commonly explioted and a giant base 115 Base Sp. Attack. The only problems with Gallade are it's mediocre HP and Defense stats and no reliable source of recovery. Being able to learn moves from all but 3 of the types (Water, Dragon and Steel) I see many ways a "perfect mate" could make this pokemon not just a viable but a widely used pokemon in the competitive battling scene.

What are the possibilities: The main problem that would have to be solved would be Gallade's low HP and Defense. A quick fix would be a pokemon that could used Barrier and Baton Pass it to Gallade but to get a very good mate for Gallade you'd need to look deeper than that. Wish would work as healing for Gallade and Reflect would be good to cover Gallade's horrible defense.

 

[callforjudgement]

So Porygon-Z has the potential to be top-tier OU, and has the movepool (pretty good both offensively and defensively) and Special Attack to support it. There are, however, a few things holding it back. Priority counters (such as Scizor and Lucario) and its lack of speed take away from its revenge-killing chances and ability to take on faster threats. It can be a devastating Special Sweeper if we just give it something more to work with, Porygon-Z isn't the biggest team player in the world.

I've been looking through the BL list, and Porygon-Z seems to be the most interesting on the list to create a "perfect mate" for. For one thing, it's rather different from most other BL Pokémon, being one of only three special sweepers and the only Normal-type. There aren't that many Pokémon that compare to it on OU either; it's a medium-speed, stupidly aggressive special sweeper, and I can't think of anything else that really fits that description.

As a result, it's relatively easy to think of ways that Porygon-Z could be helped out without hurting its other OU or BL friends. (I doubt there's much in UU that would benefit, either.) It dislikes fast enemies, and things with priority can stop a porygon-Z sweeping; as such, it's vulnerable to being revenge-killed, and bad at that job itself. It has only one resistance (a Ghost immunity) and moderately bad defences; and yet, it likes to be able to set up. On the upside, it can punch through walls (even special walls) easily, and so it itself is good at aiding certain other Pokémon.

Ways to help out Porygon-Z disproportionately include spreading Paralysis (although other Pokémon like that too), being good at revenge-killing, and buying turns; there aren't any Pokémon around that do that sort of thing at the moment, so it would create an interesting niche in the metagame. I can imagine a sort of "outpriority" Pokémon (high speed, but a bad movepool consisting mostly of priority and status moves making the high speed relatively redundant) benefitting Porygon-Z but not helping much else, and it would itself enjoy the wall-breaking that a Porygon-Z can provide. The niche for a Porygon-Z partner in OU is currently rather unfulfilled; the "team options" section mentions Pokémon as different as Gyarados, Magnezone, and Uxie as potential partners, but none really fit the job that well.

It's also worth mentioning that Porygon-Z would really like full or partial trapping support, but not Pursuit (which doesn't really hurt anything it dislikes). It's notable that Dugtrio is mentioned in its analysis; Wobbuffet would make an excellent partner for Porygon-Z (apart from an inability to spew paralysis), but it is unfortunately Uber (and for good reason). It's entirely possible to imagine something less broken than a Wobbuffet, though, which can buy turns against sweepers but not against walls. (Even something as simple as, say, Wrap followed by Disable can really hurt Choice users and buy Porygon-Z the turn it needs to set up, but would barely do anything against walls.) This is another potential niche to look at in the department of helping Porygon-Z, although it would be a little less specific than other possibilities. Still, it shows how "Porygon-Z partner" would lead to a lot more interesting choices and possibility to make a good CAP than, say, a hypothetical partner for Charizard (which would end up benefitting a bunch of other SR-weak Pokémon too).

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

After looking through the nominations that were posted so far, I'll have to throw my support towards the following people and Pokemon respectively: Rising_Dusk (Weavile), toshimelonhead (Togekiss), and Deck Knight (Empoleon). Rising_Dusk and Deck Knight offensive approach towards creating CAP11 greatly interest me, especially RD's since I find making a "perfect" mate for Weavile would be highly informative and entertaining. Toshimelonhead's nomination seem more defensive than the other two, but as Reachzero said Togekiss is very versatile and has a lot of variety to work with.

 

[petrie911]

Pokemon Name: Ninjask

Why this Pokemon: Ninjask has a very unique role in being able to pass some awesome offensive stat boosts very quickly. Simply by switching in, Ninjask gets +1 speed, and after 1 turn it can have +2 attack and +2 speed. However, Ninjask has a very critical failing. And no, it's not SR weak; Ninjask needs only pull off his pass once to unleash a devastating sweep. No, Ninjask's key weakness is a lack of particularly good recipients. Skarmory and Swampert can switch into Ninjask as soon as it enters the field and phaze it or its recipient. Priority can easily wear down many recipients. Metagross doesn't do very well against the aforementioned phazers.

What are the possibilities: There are a few ways to go about this. One is to make a Pokemon who's only decent on its own, but becomes absolutely devastating at +2/+2, in order to make Jask's pass really worth it. We could give it Suction Cups to prevent phazing, of course. Or we could give it Simple to make sure that the pass is worth the setup. Ideally, this Pokemon would also help Ninjask switch in, drawing Grass, Ground, and Fighting attacks, and would match up well against popular phazers. Not being particularly weak to priority would help too.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

It wasn't stated in the OP or anywhere else, and some might think it common sense, but:

Can we post multiple nominations for CAP 11?

Petrie: You're suggesting a Pokemon that becomes an extremely deadly sweeper given a stat up; not only would this improve Ninjask, but any Baton Passer. The Pokemon itself would also be pretty powerful in its own right, kind of like a Gyarados that doesn't run Dragon Dance (not as frightening, but still strong). You'd have to work very hard to give it no natural stat-increasing moves as well as not making it too overpowered to begin with.

 

[The Pokemon Pimp]

I'd like to further propose toshimelonhead's nomination of Togekiss. As previously stated, Togekiss is an underrated Pokemon in the metagame with excellent special and defensive stats. It can fill many different roles as well, such as supporting other members of the team, being a Baton Passer, and having both special and mixed sweeper sets.

That being said, the "perfect mate" for Togekiss would have many different options. What makes Togekiss so fitting for a "perfect mate" is that it can fulfill both defensive and offensive roles. In this way, the "perfect mate" could either be:

1. An offensive powerhouse that can sweep freely, either by help from Thunder Wave support, Encore support, or any other attributes that Togekiss may have, or

2. The opposite: a (maybe physically?) bulky pokemon that can support a Togekiss sweep and can do things that Togekiss cannot: for example, a Rapid Spinner could certainly help Togekiss and allows Togekiss to switch freely and not worry about taking 25% of its health every time it switches in.

In conclusion, Togekiss fits the criteria for a low-OU or BL Pokemon that has potential to have an excellent "perfect mate". Togekiss provides us with a large blank slate to work with, as it can fulfill many roles; as a result of that, CAP11 would not be so restricted too early in the creation process.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

I'm not much good at writing these nominations so before I make an idiot out of myself is there any reason why Electivire would fail horribly? I think it's an underrated pokemon that could really shine given the right buddy. It's Type coverage is amazing, only one weakness. It's biggest downfall is it's immediate lack of speed and the low base power of it's move pool.

Basically I think what it needs is a pokemon that is much better at drawing electric attacks and can give it some assitance in it's attack stat.

And to people suggesting a Togekiss buddy, I haven't really tested it, but it seems to me that our Ground Narwhal would prove to be a very useful Togekiss teammate.

 

[Not Scicky]

Gyarados isn't good enough at drawing electric attacks? I think Electivire's perfect mate would be limited to an SD-Passing Flying/Water type with... very little viability doing anything other than passing SD's to Vire, it'd end up way too predictable.

Really we shouldn't be making a pokemon that is only good when used directly in conjunction with the other, look at Celebi and Heatran. There's probably a Heatran on almost every other team with Celebi but it wouldn't be that way if Heatran didn't exist, and Celebi would definitely still be used. Let's not forget that Heatran is on like 22% of all teams already. Heatran and Celebi are good on their own though, they don't need each-other to be useful.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Aside from something that Passes ATK boosts, anything that supports Electivire basically supports Jolteon, making it a moot point.

My question still stands. Logic dictates that the more nominations there are, the more variety there is, and the more options we have to build CAP 11 off of.

 

[Deck Knight]

bugmaniacbob has an excellent post. Read it.

Yanmega-

The biggest glaring issue is Stealth Rock, of course. Its mostly a concern of what we're dealing with. Such a huge SR weak and Yanmega's obvious defense issues because of it means if you're using it in an offensive core style. A Partner with Rapid Spin would work, but any Spinner also helps other Pokemon with SR weaknesses, notably Zapdos, Salamence, and Gyarados. It also weakens offensive options generally because one slot will be going to Rapid Spin, potentially reducing offensive coverage by that much more. Combined with Yanmega's weakness to all 3 "big elementals" (Fire, Electric, Ice) and it's a tough road to hoe.

Froslass-

Unlike Yanmega, a 2x Stealth Rock weak isn't the kind of a gamebreaker a 4x weak is. Froslass also has a few immunities to its name, and employs a solid Spiking strategy. It's still not an ideal typing defensively, but it does enough and its worst weaknesses are Fire and Steel, both of which are resisted by Water and Fire.

Raikou-

Raikou is pretty solid on it's own, with no really glaring weaknesses. The difficulty will be breaking new Ground because there are loads of offensive pokemon immune to Ground, but none have really managed to bring Raikou into the limelight.

Zapdos-

Zapdos already has a sort of defensive core with Breloom, spreading status and blocking the opponent's momentum. Otheriwse Zapdos is fairly well-contained, and bringing a Pokemon to help out specifically it will be more difficult.

Togekiss-

Togekiss has a lot of potential if only for its sheer diversity of sets. It can already provide a Plotpass boost for a sweep and has existent, if limited resistances/immunities. The only real question is deciding which set to focus on, since Togekiss has offensive and defensive capabilities.

Heracross-

Life used to be Hera weak, and now it isn't. I don't necessarily believe something that benefits Heracross inherently benefits Lucario, since Heracross has important Fighting and Ground resistances that Lucario is susceptible to, generally better defenses, and more raw offense.

Staraptor-

Colossoil seems to have done a bang-up job bringing Staraptor into the limelight, even if that wasn't part of the original purpose. I'm mostly afraid that we'll cover similar ground to Colossoil because of the kind of walls Staraptor tuns into.

Umbreon-

Scizor is probably it's biggest issue, since the Bug weakness combined with Scizor switching out after U-turn is the biggest nuisance. Weakness to powerful fighting attacks with no decent answer (Psychic?) is also an issue. Regardless, Umbreon can also pass boosts and aside from these sticking points, has a great deal of potential in a defensive core.

Weavile-

I simply don't see the interest in Weavile. Defensively speaking there is nothing capable of fending off the combined weaknesses of Ice and Dark, as the two types have no internal synergy whatsoever. This leaves Weavile in the "breaker" role of an offensive combination, a rule it is poorly suited to. It's strongest STAB attack is Ice Punch at Base 75, with Night Slash coming in at Base 70. Weavile does not even possess Superpower despite it generally being dished out to Pokemon with 110+ Base Attack, needing to rely on Brick Break and Low Kick.

Weavile does have fairly good technical prowess between Ice Shard and Pursuit, but that's the extent of its abilities. The only spinner it forces to think twice is Starmie. Starmie is the most popular, but it's not the only Spinner. It needs Night Slash for Tentacruel, since Tentacruel resists all else and will just set up Toxic Spikes after Spinning. Donphan has left OU and Weavile really needs Ice Punch to deal with it. So it's really locked in a corner between displaying its good technical qualities and addressing Spinners. It can't do either of those and still have the coverage to be the breaking portion of an offensive core.

Ultimately I don't think Weavile will produce anything near "good discussions." There will merely be endless fighting over which of its weaknesses (SR, Bullet Punch, Fire moves, Fighting moves, U-turn) its partner should address. It's certainly possible to try and address them all at once, but it puts you in a typing and ability straight jacket with an entirely incoherent result. In the end it will overshadow Weavile rather than being its partners, and less limited partners will take its place.

Honchkrow-

Honchkrow has a much more accommodating typing combination, as well as an excellent mixed movepool and support moves and the stats to back up either. SR weakness is a liability but can be worked around, especially with Honchkrow's Pursuit resistance and Roost. Honchkrow definitely has the skills to be the breaking portion of a combo and can even lend support.

Porygon-Z:

Porygon-Z has some of the scariest offensive potential out there. It's got a ton of initial power and a boosting move in Nasty Plot, as well as Agility and Adaptability to help out Normal's lack of SE hits. It also only has one weakness to cover, which is very helpful. It's major weak point is susceptibility to status, with Paralysis being the most crippling. I think Porygon-Z has a lot of potential based on it's pure power. A good partner might be one that can absorb status and utilize Safeguard, then perhaps U-turn or Baton Pass to Z to let it finish the job. Bug might have SR weak but it would have STAB U-turn and resists Fighting. It'd be an interesting direction to go in.

Shaymin-

Shaymin has a good core movepool and solid defensive abilites, as well as Natural Rest allowing it to switch out effectively. Pure Grass has its weaknesses but is also fairly easy to work with. What I'm most afraid of is that we already have so many Water CAP Pokemon and Fire and Ice are the most pressing weaknesses. Otherwise there is a great wealth of sets that could be used with Shaymin.

Celebi-

Celetran is already infamous as a combo. I'm not too keen on building a CAP for a mon that's already part of an established core, which Celebi most certainly is. I think we'd learn much more from the similar Shaymin.

Abomasnow-

Much like Weavile, Abomasnow leaves much to be desired defensively, although at least Abomasnow has relevant resistances to Earthquake and Thunderbolt. The hardest part about Abomasnow is that it's a poor team player with non-Ice types because of Snow Warning, making it difficult to build a core around it.

Gallade-

Gallade is interesting because it has possibly the largest support movepool of any of the nominations. It also has a fairly unique typing and an excellent array of attack types, with the power to back it up and Swords Dance.

Building a partner around Gallade would still be difficult because physical Psychic attacks are a distinctive quality of Gallade, but so few Pokemon use them in standard, and it took multiple Psychic-weak Pokemon to bring about their use in full CAP. Nonetheless Gallade has a lot of material to work with.

Ninjask-

Ninjask is a pretty good team player already, but suffers from being easily phazed out. A two-Pokemon combo that could benefit immediately and take out most of the Phazers would do quite a bit for Ninjask, my only worry is that it would be a little too straightforward since it screams "physical attacker with Suction Cups" at the outset.

 

[Fuzznip]

Hi guys. I'm liking the discussion taking place so far. Time for an opinion update.

Based on the arguments presented so far, the type of synergy I believe is most fitting for this particular concept is primarily offensive, but would have some qualities from defensive and supportive synergies. Defensive cores have been done to death, as we have so many good examples of them, such as Skarmory + Blissey and Heatran + Celebi. We know how the operate and they are nothing interesting or worth exploring further. Offensive cores, on the other hand, are a more uncharted territory. There really aren't a lot of solid offensive cores running about to give us a good understanding of how this type of synergy works between Pokemon. There are many unique possibilities we can explore with offensive synergy, and I believe it will provide this CAP project the best discussion; we can learn a lot form this. Having said that, I therefore am more interested in pursuing this synergy moreso than mainly defense or support.

The Pokemon I want to see are ones that are unique in that they have weaknesses not shared by existing Pokemon in the metagame, and that aiding these Pokemon won't end up helping Pokemon we never intended to help. For example, Gallade and Heracross are Pokemon that have many of the same issues as Scizor and Lucario, so if we select either of those Pokemon, they 1) would not be used as they are basically outclassed and 2) the Perfect Mate would end up being more perfect for Scizor and Lucario, and not Gallade or Heracross. We want to see how synergy can affect a Pokemon's effectiveness in the metagame, but if we choose a Pokemon that is essentially outclassed by more top-tier Pokemon, we won't learn much, if anything. This is why I want Pokemon that are unique and are different than other Pokemon. Based on that, Weavile and Togekiss are my favourite choices as the base Pokemon so far. Both of these Pokemon are unique, are troubled by the state of the current OU metagame, and would be fantastic discussion sparkers for CAP 11. They each have many different roads we can drive on for the creation of their Perfect Mate. In essence, these two have the versatility to provide CAP 11 with the best discussion possible, which is extremely important.

What exactly do you mean by "low OU"?

What I mean by "low OU" is Pokemon that are currently troubled by the metagame and therefore cannot be used as effectively. This does link to usage, but not entirely. For instance, Ninjask is considered a bottom OU Pokemon (#37 in usage), yet his niche makes him an effective Pokemon as he is basically guaranteed to pass Speed or Attack boosts. With your example of Breloom, he is not a Pokemon that is in bottom OU (#16 in usage) and is ineffective in the OU metagame. He's a monster with his base 130 Attack, Poison Heal, and limited but rather excellent movepool. He really doesn't need a lot of support, he's somewhat of a standalone sweeper. Weavile and Togekiss, as stated above, are Pokemon that follow that guideline. Weavile and Togekiss sit at #35 and #29 in usage, and they are at a disadvantage in the OU metagame. You can say that we are essentially trying to make an underused Pokemon better, but that's not what is important. The thing that is important is how synergy can affect a Pokemon's position on a level of effectiveness. How successful would a Pokemon like Weavile become when he is combined with a partner that offers excellent synergy? This is something that is really interesting and is undoubtedly worth seeking the answers regarding the importance of synergy.

Aside form that, you also make very good points in your post. Good job.

Can we post multiple nominations for CAP 11?

No, please only post one nomination for CAP 11. Think of this as your "concept" for Perfect Mate. You are only allowed one submission and it's up to you to make it stand out.

Good stuff so far everyone.

 

[bubbly]

NOTE: THIS IS NOT MY SUBMISSION, JUST A DISCUSSION PIECE
I'm not personally sure the extent to which these Pokemon are going to be "Perfect Mates". Since its obviously impossible to implicitly build the base pokemon into the CAP (e.g. the CAP has effects which only affect the base pokemon!), I think a very important part of the choice of base is how unique the base pokemon is. If we chose a pokemon which functions in a very similar way to a few others, then the CAP turns into a general supporter/partner for these types of pokemon. E.g. say Heatran was actually a CAP chosen for its synergy with Celebi - a vast number of pokemon in the current metagame, for instance Roserade, Scizor, pretty much anything weak to Fire would benefit nearly as much or more.

So, with this in mind the base pokemon has to be something which fills a role significantly different to another. Some examples of pokemon I feel are excluded by this limitation are:
-Raikou: There is a lot of potential there if it was given proper support, BUT, it functions generally as either a straight sweeper, or with CM or similar. There are a number of pokemon who play very similarly, thus violating the singular "Perfect Mate".
-Shaymin is another one. Shaymin's main undoing is its limited movepool. Going up against it you know immediately it will have Seed Flare, and then either will be Choiced, or else will have Leech Seed (excluding the rare Growth sweeper). Helping Shaymin is almost impossible without also helping things like Celebi which often play in similar ways.

So with this in mind, I have decided to throw my support behind a number of pokemon, all of which could fit the concept. These are:

-Yanmega - Has been pretty well looked at already. Those great abilities deserve better usability. Yanmega is pretty different from any other pokemon.
-Honchkrow- Great attack stats, pretty good movepool. Has horrible defenses and even with his good HP can rarely take a strong hit. Speed maxes at 265, much too slow to attempt a sweep, which is why Sucker Punch is so important on him. There is a lot of potential for support here, especially since Honchkrow already relies so much on his team mates.
-Absol - Yup, I know its not even BL. But, it has a lot of things going for it, its just commonly let down by its defects. Huge attack stat, Swords Dance, and an incredibly powerful Sucker Punch, Absol could potentially flourish in the OU environment with support.
-Togekiss - Great movepool, stats (with the exception of speed), and ability. What can go wrong? Basically, Togekiss' typing (which is only good for switch ins on Ground, Ghost, Bug and Grass), combined with that lack of speed which could help abuse Air Slash and Nasty Plot. Togekiss could be a vast threat in the current metagame - very few non-offensive pokemon can really damage it, especially with that HAX we all love and hate. Togekiss has always had problem with status, particularly Paralysis, since Tog relies more on her versatility and bulk than her ability to land OHKO's (although she has a nice SpAtk, her best STAB in Air Slash has relatively low power). Togekiss also has a great supporting movepool, including Wish, Encore, and others. Togekiss would be another great choice for the CAP (plus it looks so awesome:)

Hope this was useful!

 

[NARFNra]

I'm pretty sure one reason Lapras is so low is more powerful and common fighting moves, the fact none of it's non HP stats are great, just good, and the fact it was a whole ton of common weaknesses on it's side.

 

[jumpluff]

Pokemon Name: Shaymin (land)

Why this Pokemon: Shaymin has the same flexible stat spread as Celebi and Jirachi, but is overshadowed often due to its many weaknesses (being pure grass) and limited movepool. Sure it has Seed Flare for massive STAB sweeping potential and many support moves, but does anyone use it? Not really.

What are the possibilities: Shaymin would provide Flexibility (as stated by BMBob) to CAP 11, since Shaymin itself is flexible. If someone wanted a Cleric Shaymin with high defences, CAP 11 could be tailored as a sweeper. If someone else wanted a Shaymin sweeper, CAP 11 could be tailored as a supporter with high defences. Sounds promising, right? Well, CAP 11 would still have to cover for Shaymin's weaknesses, and Shaymin should be able to cover for CAP 11's weaknesses. It would also like to have a somewhat balenced stat spread to match with Shaymin's adaptability.

Shaymin has Heatran, which is as good a partner for it as Celebi. CAP also has a number of good Water-types. Celebi is far from low OU, and it feels to me both a waste and redundant if we look at a Pokémon extremely similar to a distinguished core.

So far the two that personally interest me most are Raikou and Togekiss. As Deck stated, though, there are already a number of Pokémon that are immune to Ground and yet those aren't enough. I do think there is potential here, if we looked at it in a different way than just typing synergy. For instance, the ability to lure and kill problem Pokémon. Togekiss is most interesting to me because it definitely falls in lesser-used OUs and has some great potential for partnership (such as Ground and Ghost immunities, the ability to pass boosts [though that's a shaky strategy], Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, Trick, good movepool), while it definitely needs a boost to overcome its problems (mediocre Speed, for one, and bad typing for switching in). Its problems aren't so immense that we'd be struggling to succeed, but its potential is so immense that there's a lot of potential. I think there are lots of ways we could approach creating a good partner for Togekiss, both offensively and defensively. I also think it would yield a lot of discussion because of Togekiss's versatility.

 

[GMLW]

I'm not very good at stuff like this, so I hope this is okay.


Pokemon Name: Yanmega

Why this Pokemon: Yanmega has a lot of potential. Good base Speed and Special Attack along with a choice of two very good abilities would make you think that Yanmega would be all over the place. It even has a nice movepool to boot. However, looking closely, there are some obvious flaws. First, there's Stealth Rock. Yanmega's good movepool, good stats, and Tinted Lens ability make it an excellent candidate for a Specs user. However, all choiced Pokemon are hit-and-run, making Yanmega's 4x weakness to Stealth Rock even more crippling. Even when not running a choice set, Stealth Rock is still a major pain for any 4x weak Pokemon. Its typing also gives it boatloads of nasty weaknesses to Fire, Rock, Electric, Ice, and more. The next flaw is shared between all special attackers: Blissey. Unlike other special attackers such as Heatran, Yanmega has no viable methods of beating Blissey.

What are the possibilities: Yanmega's main flaws are Stealth Rock and Blissey, so these should be the main focuses. Stealth Rock could be fixed by some form of Rapid Spin/other way of removing entry hazards. Since Yanmega fails against Ghosts, this Pokemon would have to beat them itself or use another method of removing entry hazards that we would create. Next up is Blissey. Blissey gets absolutely raped by physical attacks, especially Fighting attacks, so that would be an obvious choice. This method, however, would just cause Blissey to switch, and not help Yanmega in the long run. Another method could be through use of a bait set such as pretending to be special but actually be physical, or having Explosion or Trick.



EDIT: Didn't see the post saying not to give duplicate nominations. Can I at least leave this up here as my support to this Pokemon, or should I change it?


EDIT 2: Notes about other possible Pokemon.

Empoleon- The problem I see with Empoleon is that it is too simliar to Suicune. Both are Water types, both enjoy Toxic Spikes, both are special attackers, both like having opposing Water types gone. It is also similar to Gyarados, except that Gyarados attacks from the physical side.

Togekiss- I see Togekiss as being wonderful for this concept, due to its versatility and uniqueness. Not much else to say here.

Shaymin- Shaymin is way too similar to Celebi to be viable here.

Weavile- Weavile is tough to support due to its uncanny ability to take hits like wet toilet paper. It'll be dead before you get the chance to support it. As a dragon killer, Mamoswine beats it.

Heracross/Gallade- Lucario says hi.

Honchkrow- If we want to use Honchkrow, we'd might as well just use Togekiss. They are very similar.

Celebi- Celebi is already popular enough and has an excellent partner in Heatran.

Raikou/Zapdos- Raikou is literally a carbon copy of Jolteon except with Calm Mind (I personally think Raikou is better though). Both of them are too similar to Rotom-A.

 

[Leman]

Though I don't have a particular Pokemon in mind, I want to post to say a general statement, that has probably been said before, but whatever. We should choose a Pokemon that is not used because of some fault of its own, not because it is outclassed. This is important, because if we choose a Pokemon like Shaymin, Gallade, or Zapdos, we will inevitably be boosting Celebi, Lucario, and Rotom-A, because the Pokemon are so similar. If we make something that pairs well with Shaymin, chances are it will work reasonably well with Celebi, and since Celebi is so much better than Shaymin, most likely Celebi+Cap11 will be better than Shaymin+CAP11.

 

[Deck Knight]

What I'm ultimately looking for as a CAP participant is an end-product that is successful. We don't know what makes an offensive core successful and I feel the best way to do so is to set yourself up for a specific success.

For example, I like Togekiss on the one hand but on the other I don't really believe "support synergy" would be viable for exploring a CAP offensive core.

First because we already have the insanely annoying Machamp + Jirachi offensive core. That's pretty good support for a core and it's really the only reason it works.

Ideally the core would be purely offensive, meaning capable of threatening the metagame based on damage capability alone. This is part of why I support Empoleon as the "pivot" in the offensive core, leaving us to build a CAP as the "breaker."

A good example of an existing core that goes this is Gyarados + Jolteon. Jolteon is the "breaker" that smashes through opposition with Choice Specs or Life Orb Thunderbolts and coverage moves, Gyarados is the "pivot" that eats the onslaught of strong physical attacks that head Jolteon's way. In turn, Jolteon comes in on predicted Electric moves aimed at Gyarados to complete the core. Make no mistake though, Jolteon is the primary damage dealer of the combo, attempting to overwhelm with immediate crushing force. Jolteon's job is to weaken the opponent enough for Gyarados to finally DD up and finish off the shattered remains of the Pokemon Jolteon has previously broken.

Empoleon acts as our Gyarados, the reliable pivot that waits for our CAP to weaken the opposition until Empoleon can use its bulk and fortuitous typing to pull off the game-sealing Agility or Swords Dance.

This is the offensive core I envision building. The problem with support is that it's too generic. Paralysis lends support to every pokemon on the team, not just the two core Pokemon. It doesn't make a "Perfect Mate" for a single Pokemon but rather a good teammate supporting the entire team. I think we have the least to learn from this generic supporting role and should focus more on the "breaker-pivot" model of the offensive core.