CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Rising_Dusk]

I tend to agree with all of the sentiment against Bug-type coverage. It adds unnecessary power moves that only serve to ravage Hydreigon more-so than it should be able. Furthermore, they just don't bring anything to the table that we actually want. For this reason, Bug-type coverage to disallowed. I am also disallowing all Dragon-type moves for the same reasoning. I've also disallowed Volt Switch and U-turn; I think they distract from our goal of studying Sketch and do not introduce any variables that support new applications of Sketch.

Following a few discussions on IRC as well as some mention of it here, I think I will allow Sucker Punch and Pursuit. Both of these moves, quite frankly, suck on CAP 2. Without STAB and even with 120 Atk, they're just not very impressive in when they would be useful. As a Ghost-type, CAP 2 has problems 'scaring away' other Ghosts or even Psychics, since they can just abuse CAP 2. In lieu of this, I've allowed Pursuit and Sucker Punch.

I moved Electric- and Ice-type coverage to the discussion front. I'd like to see what people think about this sort of coverage. I currently believe that its added coverage CAP 2 neither needs nor wants, and would only serve to distract further from the concept than we want. Sketch is really ideally situated with our STABs, and adding BoltBeam messes that up. Let's see what you guys think, though.

(Fwiw, I have already disallowed Hurricane, Blizzard, and Thunder because I agree that CAP 2 should not be abusing weather heavily)

 

[Spork]

Definitely far too hasty banning Bug Buzz and X Scissor, running a bug move just for Hydreigon is ludicrous (especially Bug Buzz when HP Fight and HP Ice exist) and any set whose three-move coverage is walled by a single type (and steel, of all things!) is a terrible set. And keep in mind that the only thing in OU X Scissor and Bug Buzz are hitting harder than our STABs is Hydreigon! The neutral coverage is completely irrelevant for UnSTAB'd 80BP moves, especially since they're walled by steels. We don't have to ban all moves that are super-effective against our four counters! Who cares if we can hit Hydreigon SE if we can't hit anything else? Bug moves are fucking TERRIBLE on this thing.

I'd extend that to megahorn too tbh.

I'm a fan of allowing a physical Ice-type move (probably Ice Punch). Ice Punch allows us to choose between it and Stone Edge, which offer more or less the same coverage, Stone Edge hitting a lot of things very hard when boosted, with Ice Punch arguably superior for wallbreaking (Gliscor, Dragonite). I think there are serious holes in our physical coverage that an ice move can really help to patch up.

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

From the remaining pending list, Extremespeed and Stored Power are two i see as needing to be disallowed. Sucker Punch is already present if it needs a priority move, and giving something with access to any boosting move in the game access to something that outspeeds Sucker Punch, an otherwise very effective move against it, sounds awful. If it has access to that, i can also see a revenge killer set being popular and having Sketch just become a powerful offensive move.

Stored Power with access to Sketch is actually a very good combination, and i shiver thinking about something with Stored Power and Quiver Dance, and a Stab Ghost type with Hidden Power fighting making it the perfect moveset of its type. I'd much rather limit it to Psychic/Psyshock if thats the kind of role it takes on, Stored Power is going to make this thing a mess to deal with.

 

[DarkOrbX]

Redo

Well, the calculations I originally had posted were banned, so I have decided to make a shorter post, redoing the calculations, but with Necturna having full EV's and IV's, and the opposing Pokemon not having a quad weakness to the move in question to give a more accurate picture of how powerful the move could potentially be in compeditive play.

Lv. 100 Necturna VS Lv. 100 Roserade
[Not very effective matchup]
Necturna: 31 IV's and 255 EV's in Attack
Roserade: 31 IV's and 225 EV's in Defense, plus 31 IV's and EV's in HP

Necturna's Power Whip would do a total of about 125 HP in damage. (2HKO)

Lv. 100 Necturna VS Lv. 100 Electivire (Currently in OU)
[Normal effectiveness matchup]

Necturna: 31 IV's and 255 EV's in Attack
Electivire: 31 IV's and 225 EV's in Defense, plus 31 IV's and EV's in HP

Necturna's Power Whip would do a total of about 386 HP in damage. (1HKO)

Lv. 100 Necturna VS Lv. 100 Dugtrio (Currently in OU)
[Super-effective matchup]

Necturna: 31 IV's and 255 EV's in Attack
Dugtrio: 31 IV's and 225 EV's in Defense, plus 31 IV's and EV's in HP

Necturna's Power Whip would do a total of about 535 HP in damage. (1HKO)

I personally think, that from what I have seen here, that I will change my original conclusion, and say that Necturna's Power Whip is just powerful enough to become allowed.

If you want proof of these calculations you can see for yourself on either of these websites.

http://pokemon.marriland.com/damage.php

http://pokemondb.net/pokebase/1500/how-does-the-base-power-attack-relate-the-actual-damage-does

 

[Pallas Athena]

To the contrary, I think stored power will be amazing in encouraging bulky boosting over options such as shift gear and shell smash. Her emphasis is bulky offense, and it should follow that she should be able to abuse it to the fullest. But that's not what I wanted to post about.

I believe Ice moves should be disallowed. We already cut Bug and Dragon based almost entirely off of the need to keep Hydreigon on the counters list. We might as well go all the way. He can still check Dragonite via Hidden Power and Stone Edge.

I believe all special electric moves should be disallowed. They hit all of his steel counters for neutral or better, and strike at Skarm's lower defense. They also conflict with hidden power. I would be willing to see ThunderPunch and Thunder Fang allowed though, as it does not conflict with Hidden Power and fails to 2HKO Skarmory at +1, allowing it to stall with roost.

 

[Birkal]

I'd like to do a quick chat about Psychic-type attacks. They're currently on the pending list, but methinks they could easily be moved into the allowed category. Let's look at the moves in question:

Psychic
Psyshock
Stored Power
Extrasensory
Zen Headbutt

Psychic, and its less powerful counterpart Extrasensory, aren't going to be doing much off of CAP2's 85 Base Special Attack, even with Tail Glow. Psyshock, I'd imagine, is actually worse than Zen Headbutt, unless you're running a Special Attack boosting set. Zen Headbutt really doesn't offer much coverage off of Ghost-type and Grass-type STAB, something that all of these Psychic-type attacks have problems with.

The only one that causes me to pause is Stored Power. White Herb Shell Smash will effectively give you a Base 120 Psychic-type attack coming off of +2 Base 85 SpA. But when you run some calcs with the strongest possible Psychic-type attack that CAP2 could have within the scope of one turn, here are the results upon our listed checks:

252 SpA Modest +2 Necturna Stored Power (120) vs. 0/0 Heatran ~ 31.6% - 37.2%
252 SpA Modest +2 Necturna Stored Power (120) vs. 0/0 Jirachi ~ 15.5% - 18.5%
252 SpA Modest +2 Necturna Stored Power (120) vs. 252/232 +SpD Skarmory ~ 29.6% - 34.7%
252 SpA Modest +2 Necturna Stored Power (120) vs. 0/0 Hydreigon ~ lol

As you can see, the strongest Psychic-type attack that CAP2 can even conjure fails to 2HKO any of these Pokemon. However, it should be noted that Physically Defensive Skarmory can be 2HKO'd under these conditions, but that's only with high damage rolls. Perhaps that would be the only reason to give pause to giving CAP2 Stored Power. However, I would definitely let the other Psychic-type attacks slide and not be incredibly worried about Stored Power. In order to use Stored Power, CAP2 has to first set up the Shell Smash, and then it risks Whirlwind from Skarmory as it attempts to 2HKO, which makes it lose the effects of White Herb. In my opinion, Psychic-type attacks don't give CAP2 any better coverage on its current list of checks.

 

[Tayla]

Well, I took the time to calculate the damage output of Power Whip versus Gliscor. Assume 252 Atk EVs on all calcs. First calc is with an Adamant nature, second calc is with a Jolly nature.

Choice Banded Power Whip versus Standard Gliscor (252 HP / 184 Defense) - 55.9% - 66.1% (2HKO), 50.8% - 60.2% (2HKO)
+0 LO Power Whip - 48.3% - 57.1%, 44.1% - 52%
+1 LO Power Whip - 72.3% - 85.6%, 66.1% - 78% (both 2HKO)
+2 LO Power Whip - 96.6% - 113.8% (OHKO with SR), 88.1% - 103.7% (OHKO with SR)
+0 Leftovers - 37.3% - 44.1%, 33.9% - 40.1%
+1 Leftovers - 55.9% - 66.1% (2HKO), 50.8% - 60.2%
+2 Leftovers - 74% - 87.6% (2HKO), 67.8% - 79.9% (2HKO)

Gliscor is dealt with pretty handily by our CAP. Most boosted Power Whips manage to 2HKO, while the Leftovers set struggles to handle Gliscor without any boosts. Even a +1 PW can have trouble with Gliscor's ability to Protect / Sub (or both) and heal itself with Poison Heal. The power drop from Adamant to Jolly is substantial on the Leftovers sets. Depending on the set, Gliscor has the ability to outstall Necturna. Gliscor also generally lols at Leaf Blade.

Gyarados is in the same position, as even at -1, a LO Adamant Power Whip deals 60% max against the bulky DDer. The power of the move is negligent versus the Pokemon that are its counters (minus Jirachi and Hydreigon). Heatran takes 45% from a +2 LO Adamant PW, Jirachi is annihilated taking a max 90%, Skarmory takes a comfortable 26% max, while Hydreigon has the chance to be OHKO'd even BEFORE SR damage. This is a reason why Bug-type coverage being disallowed is pretty laughable.

Heatran and Skarmory are both capable of taking +2 hits and retaliating, Skarmory even more so. Jirachi and Hydreigon can't dream of switching into a +2 Power Whip, but they can comfortably come in on un-boosted PWs and threaten immediatly.

Personally, I'm for allowing Power Whip. Even with its nastiness at +2, there are Pokemon quite capable of dealing with Necturna. Heatran and Skarmory are two fine examples, as Necturna can't damage them substantially before being taken out by their Fire- and Flying- type attacks. The list grows exponentially at +1, and even more so at +0.

 

[Tortferngatr]

I'd like to do a quick chat about Psychic-type attacks. They're currently on the pending list, but methinks they could easily be moved into the allowed category. Let's look at the moves in question:

Psychic
Psyshock
Stored Power
Extrasensory
Zen Headbutt

Psychic, and its less powerful counterpart Extrasensory, aren't going to be doing much off of CAP2's 85 Base Special Attack, even with Tail Glow. Psyshock, I'd imagine, is actually worse than Zen Headbutt, unless you're running a Special Attack boosting set. Zen Headbutt really doesn't offer much coverage off of Ghost-type and Grass-type STAB, something that all of these Psychic-type attacks have problems with.

The only one that causes me to pause is Stored Power. White Herb Shell Smash will effectively give you a Base 120 Psychic-type attack coming off of +2 Base 85 SpA. But when you run some calcs with the strongest possible Psychic-type attack that CAP2 could have within the scope of one turn, here are the results upon our listed checks:

252 SpA Modest +2 Necturna Stored Power (120) vs. 0/0 Heatran ~ 31.6% - 37.2%
252 SpA Modest +2 Necturna Stored Power (120) vs. 0/0 Jirachi ~ 15.5% - 18.5%
252 SpA Modest +2 Necturna Stored Power (120) vs. 252/232 +SpD Skarmory ~ 29.6% - 34.7%
252 SpA Modest +2 Necturna Stored Power (120) vs. 0/0 Hydreigon ~ lol

As you can see, the strongest Psychic-type attack that CAP2 can even conjure fails to 2HKO any of these Pokemon. However, it should be noted that Physically Defensive Skarmory can be 2HKO'd under these conditions, but that's only with high damage rolls. Perhaps that would be the only reason to give pause to giving CAP2 Stored Power. However, I would definitely let the other Psychic-type attacks slide and not be incredibly worried about Stored Power. In order to use Stored Power, CAP2 has to first set up the Shell Smash, and then it risks Whirlwind from Skarmory as it attempts to 2HKO, which makes it lose the effects of White Herb. In my opinion, Psychic-type attacks don't give CAP2 any better coverage on its current list of checks.

Technically it's base 140 (and even w/o White Herb, Stored Power doesn't take drops into account.)

 

[capefeather]

I mostly agree with Rediamond, particularly on the subject of Electric-type moves. However, on the subject of Ice-type moves, I'm not so sure. I'm not sure that an Ice-type move could feasibly replace a STAB, and considering that, the only Pokémon that Ice hits are the Dragon-types mentioned. At worst I see a prediction KO from a Choice Band set.

I don't see much of a competitive reason to disallow Power Whip. I mean, yes, the argument can be made that it could hurt versatility, but even then, physical sets simply don't have the advantage of Hidden Power that special sets get. Tayla's calcs against the designated checks don't strike me as relevant because he used +2 Adamant and only Hydreigon actually has a chance to be KOed. Shadow Claw would be the better move against Jirachi, anyway.

We should remember that the offensive stats were mostly designed around coverage moves (specifically, Hidden Power and Sacred Fire), and, especially in the physical case, Power Whip could be warranted just to have Sacred Fire be used as a coverage/utility hybrid, rather than as a main attack. STAB Leaf Blade and Shadow Claw are only 5% stronger than Sacred Fire, and Seed Bomb and Horn Leech aren't much better. I feel that offensive sets, particularly physically offensive sets, have been controlled enough in the other stages, and perhaps they need a break.

I mostly agree with Birkal on Psychic-type moves. However, on the topic of Stored Power, it seems like too much of a bother to use as a main attack that you boost at the expense of other attacks. Thus, I think that it should be allowed with the others.

 

[DarkOrbX]

I have to agree with Rediamond on this statement:

I believe Ice moves should be disallowed. We already cut Bug and Dragon based almost entirely off of the need to keep Hydreigon on the counters list. We might as well go all the way. He can still check Dragonite via Hidden Power and Stone Edge.

However, I must disagree with him on this statement.

I believe all special electric moves should be disallowed. They hit all of his steel counters for neutral or better, and strike at Skarm's lower defense. They also conflict with hidden power. I would be willing to see ThunderPunch and Thunder Fang allowed though, as it does not conflict with Hidden Power and fails to 2HKO Skarmory at +1, allowing it to stall with roost.

I believe that Charge Beam should be allowed, along with ThunderPunch and ThunderFang. Even though it may not compliment Necturna's stat spread, Charge Beam would give a special attack option for Necturna to defeat her obvious weakness to flying. I can use the common example of Skarmory to say that Necturna's Charge Beam with 31 IV's and 255 EV's in Sp. Atk would still 2HKO a Skarmory with no EV's or IV's in Sp. Def or HP, and as Rediamond so soundly stated, "allow it to stall with Roost."

 

[Juicy]

I'd like to put an argument up to allow Power Whip.

I put this question towards you. If we do not allow Power Whip would it disable us to explore the effectiveness of sketch to its full potential? If there is a greater STAB out there than the one we are going to give Necturna, people have it as an option to use anyway, but at a cost. Is this what we are exploring? Considering we have stronger physical ghost STAB's than we are giving it (shadowstrike, shadow force) would it just end up a battle for which STAB is best suited to the metagame? and if so would the exploration of sketch be limited to just that? A STAB war of sorts.

This STAB Power Whip is attractive on Necturna but it does little to it's intended counters anyway. So I do not think we have much to worry about, bar a mega boost session for necturna, in which its counter Skarmory can just phase it out.

 

[canno]

I think Special Electric-type moves should be disallowed, but Physical Electric-type moves are fair game. The reason for this is Electric hits 2 of it's checks neutrally (and only one actually matters, since the other is hit neutrally by Ghost STAB anyways) while hitting Skarm SE, however, physical (read: Almost all) Skarm wont give a damn and could possible Roost-Stall up in it's face. However, Special Electric options overshadow Hidden Power and allow Necturna to hit Skarm in it's weaker Special Side. Charge Beam shouldn't be an exception, mainly because it fits under the Special Electric attack, and is inferior to Tail Glow in every way.

 

[Bughouse]

I think (non Volt Switch non Thunder) Electric type moves deserve at least discussion to be allowed, as I just don't see why any one would ever use them. They do absolutely nothing to help CAP2 take on Hydreigon. The only threats Electric type moves help with are Skarmory, who already has to fear sketched Sacred Fire, and Gyarados, who I don't think CAP2 should have to fear anyway.

Ice moves on the other hand, I think should be disallowed, as they remove Hydreigon from the list of checks/counters.

Also, from a secondary flavor perspective, the only non Abomasnow Grass type that gets more than one Ice attacking move is Ludicolo, which is a special case due to its Water type. (Electric moves are much less strict in this regard. For example, Ferrothorn learns Thunderbolt, Tangrowth learns Shock Wave, and Celebi learns Charge Beam.)

 

[Jaetheho]

I ALSO agree that necturna should get either a physical ice move or an electric move. (mostly electric) Without them, necturna will be slightly underwhelming when sweeping.

However, if it does come to a concensus that she won't get either one of those, she will have to stick to mixed sweeping.

 

[Project_Mars]

Extremespeed should DEFINITELY be disallowed, as extremespeed off a 120 base attack hurts, as evidenced by Arceus.

I also think that air slash should be considered for being disallowed, since it would potentially lead to a para-flinch scenario. Or would the lack of serene grace make it okay due to a lower flinch chance?

On a similar note: is bullet seed considered? A kings rock + bullet seed would pose a similar problem.

Acrobat is worth discussion, IMO. It's a really solid move that works best on sets more tailored towards it (air gem makes the first acrobatics hurt badly) but it should not interfere with the stated goal. I admit to not knowing enough about the game to do damage calculations, so idk how scary an air gem boosted acrobatics off an attack based CAP2 would be to her counters. If it does significant damage to all of them, then disallow it.

 

[verbatim]

X-Scissor and Bug Buzz should also be disallowed because the coverage gained from these moves is small, but it's good enough. Bug-type hits Grass, Dark, and Psychic Super Effectively, not to mention 8 out of the 17 types are hit neutrally by Bug-type. The key one here is Dark-type, meaning it gets Super Effective coverage on one of it's counters, Hydreigon, without having to run a Sketch move. Speaking of Hydreigon, he receives 79.4% - 93.5% damage with 0/0 defenses from LO Max Atk Adamant X-Scissor with no boosts, which is a OHKO with SR up, meaning he cannot switch into it.

Bug Buzz main reason is that it's better than Hidden Power, which shouldn't be outclassed as a coverage option.

The thing is, if Necturna runs Shell Smash as her sketch move, then most of the above is false.

HP Ice/Bug/Fighting 252 boosting nature special attack and a Shell Smash (Life Orb)
104.39 - 123.16%

HP Ice/Bug/Fighting 252 boosting nature special attack and a Shell Smash (Leftovers)
80.35 - 95.01% (Roughly 50% chance to kill with rocks).

From this, we can gauge that if Necturna a. holds a Life Orb and b. Shell Smashes as Hydregion switches in (perhaps hoping to wall a different variant), then Hydregion will be just as dead as if you'd chosen to use Bug Buzz.

From this I would recommend moving Bug Buzz to Allowed.

I still have yet to make up my mind on X-Scissor.



EDIT:

I admit to not knowing enough about the game to do damage calculations

Luckily, there are programs that can do it for you.

You can manually insert the attacking and defending pokemon onto Smogon's damage calculator (4th gen Pokemon only, found here).

I personally do something similar with Honko's calculator found here (supports 5th gen, shows how your pokemon's attacks would fair against the entire metagame [read, anything with an analysis])

 

[Rising_Dusk]

There are lots of vague support for physical Electric- and Ice-type moves, and I hate to be 'that guy' but vague support isn't going to cut it. Saying that CAP 2 will be underwhelming without them is well and good, but without actual support or explanation as to how it is the lack of an Electric- or Ice-type move that causes this, there's no real argument.

I personally feel that Electric-type attacks afford far too great of neutral coverage against many of the things that are intentionally supposed to handle CAP 2 well. Everything on our to-be-beat-by list bar Hydreigon takes a neutral hit from Electric-type attacks. If that attack is physical, it means that it can be supported by a Choice Band and used to lure in and break the very things we're intended to be stopped by. It also means that they can be used to muscle through and 2HKO Pokemon that would otherwise stop CAP 2 if CAP 2 uses Substitute on the switch. Also keep in mind that none of this coverage actually benefits our concept at all; it may actually hurt it if CAP 2 can suddenly Sketch a complementary Ice-type move and achieve exceptional super effective BoltBeam coverage without wasting Hidden Power.

As I said in this post, I think physical Ice is a much more reasonable choice than Electric (which I described above). Electric provides too much neutral coverage, and while it's redundant with Grass-STAB, it's arguably better and opens up the plausibility of exceptional super effective coverage if you Sketched Icicle Crash or some such. Of course, having an Ice-type move does this as well in reverse. Even without using Sketch for the complement, though, this is why I originally supported Rock-type coverage instead of Ice-type coverage, because we do not achieve significant super effective coverage with it.

That is where I currently stand on Ice- and Electric-type coverage. If you want to see me allow them, you need to provide arguments that actually counter things I've said and make progress to convince me otherwise! I mean, of course having new coverage makes CAP 2 stronger, but you need to remember that the goal here isn't to allow everything and thus make CAP 2 stronger. No, the goal is to create a movepool that adequately represents the concept we want without overdoing it and losing sight of our goals. That is why CAP 2 is particularly restrictive in movepool thus far compared to other CAPs, we are getting a landslide of our CAP's versatility from Sketch itself.

Also, some updates. I thought things over due to some arguments presented here, and I am going to allow all Psychic-type coverage. These moves are arguably redundant with everything CAP 2 has, and will never be used seriously. They also do absolutely nothing to any of CAP 2's intended counters and don't do anything to provide better coverage than our STABs. As far as Stored Power goes, I'm not convinced one way or the other on it. I don't actually think the move would be too powerful, but I do think that it lends itself to a strategy that distracts people from the concept of abusing Sketch, and instead lends itself to finding a way to abuse Stored Power. For this reason, I'm currently disallowing Stored Power as the sole exception to the allowance of Psychic-type coverage. Furthermore, I am going to refine the previous ban of Bug-type moves to only disallow Megahorn and U-turn, but allow Bug Buzz and X-Scissor. It's really Megahorn and U-turn that were the problems, the former being too strong compared to our STABs and the latter providing too much mobility and maneuverability. These other coverage moves are really not that great, and while they hit Hydreigon SE and Jirachi neutrally, provide wretched coverage alongside CAP 2's other moves. That's a tradeoff that I think will result in the weak Bug-type moves never seeing serious use. As the above user shows, Shell Smash alongside Hidden Power Fighting provides 10x better coverage than a Bug-type move and does enough to maim Hydreigon already. Bug Buzz and X-Scissor simply won't see use in comparison, even on physical sets (since the added coverage is crap for Bug).

Keep it coming!

 

[DarkOrbX]

I actually must agree with you Dusk. I'm going to go back on what I had previously mentioned regarding Charge Beam. I almost completely forgot about the idea of Sketch on Necturna. I also agree that the physical electric moves suggested would turn Necturna into something we didn't ever want it to be.

I also like that you allowed the psychic type and bug type moves. I agree that nobody will really take the psychic moves on her seriously, and I must also agree that Megahorn and U-Turn were overpowered in terms of their strength and maneuverability.

One more thing though. We have presented calculations and arguments, and I am still leaning toward putting Power Whip into the allowed column.

 

[ShyGuy1221]

I am only bringing this up since I have not seen this move on any of the lists and I am not sure if it is definitely allowed or not, but what about Solarbeam? A special-sun set using solarbeam, sketched special fire move/special boosting move, and coverage/support moves could potentially be usable.
I know it's not much, but I thought I'd bring it up since I didn't see it anywhere yet.

 

[canno]

I am only bringing this up since I have not seen this move on any of the lists and I am not sure if it is definitely allowed or not, but what about Solarbeam? A special-sun set using solarbeam, sketched special fire move/special boosting move, and coverage/support moves could potentially be usable.
I know it's not much, but I thought I'd bring it up since I didn't see it anywhere yet.

This has been said before, but we do not want to give Necturna anything that makes it biased towards one weather, thus the reason behind banning Thunder, Blizzard, and Hurricane.


Also, I'm still on the boat that X-Scissor and Bug Buzz should be banned, but whatever. At least Megahorn got banned.

 

[ShyGuy1221]

This has been said before, but we do not want to give Necturna anything that makes it biased towards one weather, thus the reason behind banning Thunder, Blizzard, and Hurricane.

That certainly makes sense, but if that is the case, than Solarbeam should be on the disallowed list with the rest of the weather moves so that dopes like me don't get the wrong idea.

 

[the dead mans oddysey]

I would like to point out that moves like thunderbolt should be allowed as its designed to be a check to skarmory, jirachi, and heatran as they all have respectable bulk, and hp electric isn't going to do much to anyone (except skarmory). Hp ground won't hit it. Ground type moves were banned.

As I have stated above, leaving out moves like thunderbolt is just stupid. I know thee are other counters, but these 3 pokes present my point the best.


Also, why are all ground type moves banned? I mean, you could just keep bulldoze and it would have the coverage it needs.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I would like to point out that moves like thunderbolt should be allowed as its designed to be a check to skarmory, jirachi, and heatran as they all have respectable bulk, and hp electric isn't going to do much to anyone (except skarmory). Hp ground won't hit it. Ground type moves were banned.

Perhaps you've misunderstood the OP. Heatran, Jirachi, Skarmory, and Hydreigon are intended to check CAP 2, not the other way around! That is precisely why things like Ground-type moves are disallowed, as otherwise CAP 2 would pretty much plow through the whole OU metagame.

 

[Jaetheho]

Come to think about it,

+1 on physical ice moves

We necturna shouldn't be this outright force to reckon with. I think he should be able to sweep easily ONLY WITH THE CORRECT SUPPORT

Magnezone kills skarmory

Dugtrio (OU LOL) kills heatran and jirachi.

That leaves necturna with hydreigon. Say hello to ice moves.

 

[canno]

That certainly makes sense, but if that is the case, than Solarbeam should be on the disallowed list with the rest of the weather moves so that dopes like me don't get the wrong idea.

I agree with this.