CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Rising_Dusk]

Now we will begin the long and arduous process of putting together a movepool for CAP 2. Before we actually begin accepting submissions for the movepool, I am going to lead two discussions: Attacking Moves (AM) and Non-Attacking Moves (NAM) within which we will limit what can be on CAP 2's movepool. Lower in this thread I will provide a list of all attacking moves I consider competitive for CAP 2. Note that this list may not be exhaustive at first.

• Refer to this on-site article for further description of the process that is not outlined here.
• Moves such as Knock Off and Rapid Spin are not listed in Attacking Moves because they are primarily used for their secondary effects.
• The list of moves will be divided up into five (5) sections: Required, Allowed, Disallowed, Controversial, and Pending.
  • Required moves are those that must be in every movepool submission for CAP 2.
  • Allowed moves are those that are approved as being okay for CAP 2's movepool, and thus will be allowed in movepool submissions
  • Disallowed moves are those that have been disapproved as being okay for CAP 2's movepool, and thus will not be allowed in movepool submissions
  • Controversial moves are those that have been discussed, but which have not convinced the TL one way or the other on their validity. They are also moves that have a lot of good community arguments both way, and will go to a poll as to whether they will be allowed or not.
  • Pending moves are moves that should be discussed eventually, but have not been yet and thus are otherwise unclassified.
  • I've also included a "Need Discussion" section for moves that I want to draw attention to at any given time. This will be updated frequently, so check back frequently.

I have placed some moves into categories already at the start of this thread, but they are not placed there permanently. Moves can and likely will move around based on new arguments presented and old arguments revived. Keep that in mind. Nothing here is sacred until the thread is closed.

This discussion thread will likely extend well beyond 24 hours into the 48 and possibly 72 hour mark.

Things I move to "Need Discussion" are things I want discussed at any given point of time.

The movepool stage of a CAP is competitive, and thus NO flavor-based logic will be tolerated. For example, I do not care if CAP 2 doesn't have a horn or does, Horn Leech should be allowed or disallowed based on competitive merit only.

Below is the current list of attacking moves for discussion:

Required
Hidden Power

Allowed
Leaf Blade
Seed Bomb
Energy Ball
Grass Knot
Petal Dance
Leaf Storm
Horn Leech
Giga Drain
Power Whip
Shadow Ball
Shadow Claw
Shadow Sneak
Shadow Punch
Stone Edge
Night Shade
Seismic Toss
Crunch
Dark Pulse
Night Slash
Sucker Punch
Payback
Pursuit
Psychic
Psyshock
Extrasensory
Zen Headbutt
Bug Buzz
X-Scissor
Ice Fang
Ice Shard
Thunder Fang
Air Slash
Drill Peck
Super Fang
Flash Cannon
Meteor Mash

Disallowed
Fighting-type attacking moves
Water-type attacking moves
Ground-type attacking moves
Fire-type attacking moves
Dragon-type attacking moves
Rock Slide
Rock Blast
Head Smash
Weather Ball
Wood Hammer
Ice Beam
Icy Wind
Icicle Spear
Icicle Crash
Frost Breath
Blizzard
Volt Tackle
Wild Charge
Thunder
Thunderbolt
Discharge
Charge Beam
Brave Bird
Hurricane
Volt Switch
Stored Power
Megahorn
U-turn
Acrobatics
Fake Out
ExtremeSpeed
Ice Punch
ThunderPunch

Controversial
Power Whip
Ice Punch
ThunderPunch

Need Discussion
-

Pending
-

CAP 2 thus far:

Name: Necturna

Concept: Sketch Artist

Description: A Pokemon that learns Sketch, once, and everything that goes along with that.

Justification:

In terms of uniqueness, I think that few existing Pokemon can match DPP Smeargle, an otherwise laughably worthless Pokemon trolling OU with access to every trick in the book (or at least 4 of them) but also affecting the metagame greatly by becoming a top threat in the lead metagame. This Pokemon will borrow some of that uniqueness by learning the move Sketch and thus having access to ONE surprise/strategic/gutshot bonus move to supplement its pre-existing movepool. Being otherwise competently built (read: usable stats), this Poke could be a top threat or specialist for reasons we can't even predict yet.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How will a Poke that has access to any one move out of all the moves in the game affect common battling tactics, namely prediction, scouting, and switching?
• Which Sketch moves will become most common on this Poke's best sets? Does Sketchmon's success rely on hiding that secret Sketch move until just the right moment or can it succeed with predictably powerful moves like Spore, Spikes, Hurricane, Shell Smash, etc.?
• Does this unique and powerful access to moves need to be counterbalanced elsewhere in the Pokemon's design? If so, then to what degree?
• What kind of impact can Sketchmon have on teambuilding in terms of being able to patch holes with common utility moves like Rapid Spin or Toxic Spikes?

Explanation: The key here is that we have a lot of freedom to construct a unique Pokemon while staying within the confines of the concept. Typing, stats, abilities, and even most of the movepool are completely fair game so long as the Poke learns Sketch only once along the way and that we keep that in mind during previous steps. Now, this doesn't mean the CAP process will be directionless; Rising Dusk is pretty well organized and good at keeping discussions focused, and the concept itself has firm grounding in Smeargle's precedent. What's really being studied with this concept is movepool diversity and effectiveness, so it should have the most effect on the movepool process, where movepool creators will have to carefully balance their Sketchmon's actual movepool with the possibility of adding any one other move to the list. In terms of the metagame, there is no doubt in my mind that throwing a wildcard like this into the mix will strongly affect the metagame.

Focus: Bulky Offense
Typing: Grass / Ghost
Stats: 64 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 85 SpA / 120 SpD / 81 Spe
Abilities: Forewarn / Telepathy (DW)
Primary Checks: Heatran, Jirachi, Skarmory, Hydreigon
Gender: Female

tl;dr: Quack! (King Tut Duck wants attacks to beat enemy armies!)

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I started this thread closed, and here I'll explain why. There is one particularly controversial thing you may have noticed that I've done with the above starting list; I've allowed Stone Edge and disallowed other Rock-type competitive moves. You will ask why, and now I'll answer.

Consider that special attacking sets for CAP 2 will have Hidden Power. Hidden Power gives CAP 2 a means to obtain a meaningful coverage move that extends beyond Grass/Ghost coverage. This allows special attacking sets to be very versatile, as a matter of fact, and makes them viable. Physically oriented sets do not have that luxury. Grass / Ghost coverage is, as we intentionally chose, pretty not very good in OU. Now we could Sketch a coverage move like Sacred Fire, which is great, and then we get awesome coverage... But we won't always do that. What if we want to explore Shift Gear or Coil sets? Without another attacking move for coverage, these sets are totally walled in OU by any Steel-type not part Psychic, making them very nearly worthless. This is made worse by the existence of one Skarmory, which eats the sets forever. This is why I think the inclusion of a single coverage move that has the following features is necessary:

• It can hit Skarmory for neutral damage (before it uses Roost).
• It does not provide unwanted super effective coverage against Jirachi, Heatran, Skarmory, or Hydreigon.
• It does not provide perfect coverage alongside Grass- and Ghost-type STAB.

As you can probably see, this only really makes Ice- and Rock-type moves plausible. Ice-type, however, bests Hydreigon, and so is slightly less desirable. (Note that, less-importantly, the Rock-type gets a neutral hit on Heatran) I discussed at length with #cap and came to the conclusion that Rock-type coverage was the best choice. From the list of Rock Slide, Rock Blast, and Stone Edge I chose Stone Edge for many reasons, as I'll list below:

• 252 Jolly Life Orb CAP 2 +1 Stone Edge vs. Timid Choice Scarf Heatran : 59.4% - 70%
• 252 Jolly Life Orb CAP 2 +2 Stone Edge vs. Timid Choice Scarf Heatran : 78.9% - 92.9%
• 252 Jolly Life Orb Pokemon +2 Stone Edge vs. 248/0 Calm Leftovers Heatran : 66.2% - 77.9%
• 80% accuracy helps make Coil more valuable without making the move too strong/reliable for Shift Gear sets which boost Speed
• No 30% flinch chance

So I decided from this that Stone Edge was not too powerful and had all of the features that I wanted for CAP 2's sole physical coverage. This should explain why those moves are as they are. Feel free to debate my logic at your whim, but I've done a ton of thinking about this and am fairly confident in my choice.

I will now open the thread to discussion.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Need Discussion
Horn Leech
Power Whip
Leaf Storm

I think Horn leech, while Necturna lacking a horn, works for her, because it's very obvious that the flytrap part can detach and suction onto the enemy pokemon. Power whip doesn't seem like it fits flavor wise because the only plant part is the flytrap, and why would it whip enemies with its head?

And why is weather ball unallowed?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

STOP

I think Horn leech, while Necturna lacking a horn, works for her, because it's very obvious that the flytrap part can detach and suction onto the enemy pokemon. Power whip doesn't seem like it fits flavor wise because the only plant part is the flytrap, and why would it whip enemies with its head?

Every single part of this 'logic' is flavor-based. THE MOVEPOOL STAGE OF THE CAP IS COMPETITIVE, AND THUS NO FLAVOR-BASED LOGIC WILL BE TOLERATED. I'll forgive the above post because I didn't make it crystal clear in the OP, but now consider yourself warned.

Weather Ball is disallowed because in rain or sun, both of which are plausible and common enough weather conditions in OU, it becomes a 100 BAP Water- or Fire-type attack with pseudo-STAB. That is not okay.

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

Looking down the pending list, Volt Turn and U-Turn jump out as bad moves for this Pokemon. This Pokemon was designed to explore Sketch, making it very versatile already and difficult to have a concrete counter for. If we give it access to U-Turn especially, it will be almost impossible to counter, switching out against the opponent's counter Pokemon without losing an momentum. VoltSwitch has been dominating standard OU for good reason, and I feel giving Necturna U-Turn especially will turn it into one of the most annoying Pokemon in the game.

To keep with what needs discussion, Leaf Storm seems like a decent choice off the 85 sp attack and forcing a switch (given she's pursuit weak) Horn Leech im iffy on and Power Whip seems alright with Stone Edge and a Coil set.

 

[Raikaria]

Agreed on Weather Ball. The last thing we want is another Tomahawk [Who wound up spamming Hurricane a fair bit under rain, rather than focusing on Prankster... although he was very good at that too, of course!]

Power Whip is am strongly against. Going all the way back to the calculations I posted on my stat spread submission, which only had Base 100 Atk, was capable of OHKO'ing Gliscor with a +2 LO Power Whip. That's also known as a post-Shell Smash Power Whip.

Without Life Orb, it dealt 65.53% ~ 77.4% at +2. With Base 100 Atk.

I don't have the time to re-run the calcs with Base 120 Atk, but remember that the difference in the base stats are doubled at +2. I'm fairly certain after a Shell Smash, Gliscor, one of the most bulky things in the teir, is OHKO'ed with SR up on a neutral attack.

That's not on, IMO, as it translates into 'Power Whip OHKO's anything that dosen't resist it'

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Allow all moves on the controversial list, imo. Horn Leech is weaker than Seed Bomb and its effect isn't particularly pronounced. There's no reason to disallow it based on purely competitive grounds. Leaf Storm doesn't strike me as deadly - a base 85 SpA stat isn't very threatening, and it can't really be used with Quiver Dance or any other boosting move. More to the point, it could allow more variety in terms of Sketched special coverage moves. Power Whip is the most controversial one up there, since it's a pretty powerful move off base 120 Attack. I don't think it's overpowered, though. I've been pushing for a properly strong physical STAB attack so that it isn't compromised on the physical front - Leaf Blade and Shadow Claw don't really cut it, and their typing makes them less usable as primary STAB moves than similar moves such as Dragon Claw and Waterfall. For those of us crying "oh but Shell Smash", I really don't think we need to be worrying about that at this point. The only problem is that it could make Shift Gear a lot better than it was intended to be.

EDIT: For all those saying Power Whip OHKOes everything that doesn't resist it... remember that seven out of seventeen types in the game resist Grass-type attacks.

Will look through the pending list now.

 

[Eggsrcute]

Horn leech would be very useful on her. Her statspread shows her as a bulky physical attacker. A 120 attack stat is no laughing matter, and neither is 100 Def or 120 SpD. Horn leech, while not as strong with a 75 BP, will allow to do considerable damage while keeping her healthy. This will allow her to be a hard to take down pokemon.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I recognize that Horn Leech and Power Whip would be useful, but I want people to consider that they may be too useful, perhaps. I genuinely feel that Horn Leech is something that should be allowed, but a set composing of Belly Drum / Horn Leech / Shadow Sneak / COVERAGE is pretty potent. Horn Leech at +6 does a lot to keep CAP 2 afloat after the Belly Drum sacrifice. However, I think this actually legitimizes Belly Drum, but does not break that. For now, I err on the side of allowing Horn Leech.

I listed Leaf Storm because I'm not sure where people stand on special 'power sets'. I do not think a Specs set will be viable anyway, even with Leaf Storm, and Scarf Leaf Storm is even less attractive. In retrospect, I'm not sure why it needed discussion at all. I'll move it to allowed.

Power Whip I think merits a lot more discussion than just passing 'omg it ohkoes everything' or 'it's fine' remarks. I'd like to see someone present calculations either telling me that it's too strong or telling me that it's just strong enough. If CAP 2 gets Power Whip, it will be the most powerful user of the move in the game. I also think that it is in a prime position to abuse the move on sweeping sets with simultaneous access to Shift Gear and Coil, the two best physical sweeping boosters that exist. (Shell Smash is also awesome)

 

[bugmaniacbob]

OK, let me preface this by saying that I am strongly against all moves that would be used over a Hidden Power. IMO, this is going rather against the point of the concept, which is to see what could be done with Sketch. Giving it powerful coverage off its own bat is a bad idea, since this lessens the extent to which it is feasible to customise when thinking about what move to Sketch. To this end, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Discharge, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Air Slash, Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon, Psychic, Extrasensory, and Bug Buzz should be Disallowed. I also believe that moves with overly specific effects (as in, where they constitute a strategy in and of themselves, such as Rapid Spin and Knock Off) should not be allowed. One of the big plus points of Sketch was that moves such as this could be Sketched for alternative strategies. In this way, I think that U-turn, Volt Switch, Icy Wind, Frost Breath, Charge Beam, Dragon Tail, Fake Out, and Super Fang should be Disallowed. The only exceptions to this are, I think, Night Shade and Seismic Toss, which I would Allow since their competitive ability is somewhat limited unless used on a support set, which I feel needs encouraging.

The other overall group I'd want to get rid of are recoil moves, since they are not particularly conducive to CAP2's status as a bulky attacker. To this end, Volt Tackle, Wild Charge, Brave Bird, and Wood Hammer should be Disallowed. Also, if we're disallowing Rock Slide, we should also disallow Icicle Crash since their effects are more or less the same.

Everything else I'm more or less ambivalent about.

As far as Power Whip goes, the difficulty that presents itself is not that it is doing exorbitant amounts of damage to everything, but rather whether or not it is too much in conjunction with Stone Edge and Shadow Claw, or indeed Sacred Fire on Choice sets.

As far as the difference between Power Whip and Leaf Blade goes:

SHELL SMASH
+2 252 Atk Adamant LO Necturna Power Whip vs. SD Gliscor: 96.61 - 113.84%
+2 252 Atk Adamant LO Necturna Leaf Blade vs. SD Gliscor: 72.31 - 85.59%

Power Whip is guaranteed to OHKO with Stealth Rock (though if Gliscor runs Protect then this is not guaranteed). Leaf Blade cannot OHKO Gliscor no matter what.

SHIFT GEAR / CHOICE BAND
+1 252 Atk Adamant LO Necturna Power Whip vs. SD Gliscor: 72.31 - 85.59%
+1 252 Atk Adamant LO Necturna Leaf Blade vs. SD Gliscor: 54.51 - 64.4%

Power Whip is guaranteed to 2HKO, even if Gliscor has Protect. Leaf Blade has a chance to fail to 2HKO due to Poison Heal, and if it runs Protect this is all but guaranteed.

I could add more stuff here but this is the essential, unwarped difference. Power Whip has a hugely significant offensive increase over Leaf Blade. Necturna's sweeping chances from the physical side are greatly increased - with Power Whip, she becomes a lot like Cloyster and the like. If you don't have something that can outrun her, or priority to end her, you will be more or less marmalised. On the other hand, if you don't have Power Whip then your chances of actually sweeping full stop are compromised alarmingly. Shift Gear sets suddenly have a whole host of relatively solid counters - by which I mean, even threats neutral to Grass, such as Gliscor, are changed from easily-brushed-aside to reasonably problematic foes.

I'll refrain from passing my own judgement here, but this is the real difference - Power Whip makes Necturna's physical sets just as threatening as some of the genuinely scary physical Pokemon currently in OU. On the other hand, ditching it makes physical sets, especially boosting ones, relatively tame by comparison. My own opinion is swayed owing to my desire to make her physical sets as powerful as her special sets, as at present there appears to be a very real divide between the two in terms of viability. On the other hand, if you believe that Necturna's strength should solely come from her versatility, Power Whip may not be so good a choice to you. Of course, remember that her special sets may well turn out to be the far more effective sets in this case, so versatility may be wasted regardless. This I like to call the "Syclant phenomenon".

 

[Temperantia]

I strongly disagree on not allowing Psychic or Extrasensory, primarily on the basis that I severely doubt Psychic coverage will really ever prove necessary to CAP.
Plus, none of its counters are even vaguely phased by the move.

EDIT: Ok, I didn't think type-move relationships were flavor.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Here are a few moves on the pending list outclassed by better moves on the accepted list:

Crunch: Outclassed by Shadow Claw due to STAB/redundant coverage
Sucker Punch
Night Slash: Outclassed by Shadow Claw due to STAB/redundant coverage
Payback: Outclassed by Shadow Claw due to STAB/redundant coverage
Dark Pulse: Outclassed by Shadow Ball due to STAB/redundant coverage, don't see why BMB thinks this will get used over Hidden powers.

Temperantia: Flavor no flavoring.

 

[Spork]

OK, let me preface this by saying that I am strongly against all moves that would be used over a Hidden Power. IMO, this is going rather against the point of the concept, which is to see what could be done with Sketch. Giving it powerful coverage off its own bat is a bad idea, since this lessens the extent to which it is feasible to customise when thinking about what move to Sketch. To this end, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Discharge, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Air Slash, Hurricane, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon, Psychic, Extrasensory, and Bug Buzz should be Disallowed.

Woahhh, too hasty. There are certain moves here that would never be sketched, nor have their typings used as hidden powers, nor significantly improve coverage if available alongside hidden power. Dark Pulse is the most obvious of them, because there are zero incentives to use any Dark move over a STAB ghost move. We should definitely allow it. Flash Cannon is another we should allow, just because the only coverage it offers is unSTAB'd neutral coverage against things like flying dragons, it does not help against Steels, and does not offer perfect neutral coverage in tandem with another single type.

Special Psychic moves and Bug moves are a bit more controversial, but due to the same problems with Steels they would generally not be used instead of a hidden power or sketch move, whilst the minimal advantages they have over our STABs means Grass and Ghost moves will take precedence, leaving STAB-STAB/Sub-HP-Sketch as the standard for special sets

I certainly agree with the sentiment though, and anything that could be used over a STAB, a Sketch move or an HP (the most obvious being Ice Beam and Thunderbolt) should be disallowed in my opinion, since they would completely define the shape of our special attacking sets and offer unwanted coverage against certain counters. Not that they're listed, but rock moves like Power Gem should be included in this. Flying and Dragon moves should be disallowed too in my opinion, as the coverage is good enough to offer clear advantages for other sets (Leech Seed (polljump?) or Choiced Attacking) whilst also allowing perfect two-move coverage alongside a sketch move or a hidden power, if we wish to have it.

So yeah, allow Dark Pulse, Psychic, Extrasensory, Flash Cannon and Bug Buzz, disallow Ice Beam, Frost Breath, Blizzard, Volt Turn, Charge Beam, Discharge, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Air Slash, Hurricane, Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor.

I listed Leaf Storm because I'm not sure where people stand on special 'power sets'. I do not think a Specs set will be viable anyway, even with Leaf Storm, and Scarf Leaf Storm is even less attractive. In retrospect, I'm not sure why it needed discussion at all. I'll move it to allowed.

Tail Glow can be quite potent with Leaf Storm, but it's still far from its best set at this stage. To be honest, I'd rather not use Tail Glow without it. I think it grants some legitimacy to certain special sets (Specs as well), and should therefore be allowed.

Same logic by which you believe Horn Leech grants Belly Drum legitimacy :). On that topic actually, if Power Whip were allowed, I'd certainly use that over Horn Leech. As the most common switchins are grass-resistant, Horn Leech recovery is fairly irrelevant IMO. You're rarely going to get two free turns in which to belly drum, heal with a grass move, and only then be resistant to revenge killing.

In this vein I've moved Crunch, Payback, and Night Slash to allowed and Sucker Punch and Pursuit to needs discussion. Those two moves have unique applications as far as roles go in the game, and I think they merit further discussion.

I don't think they need too much discussion.... Sucker Punch is probably slightly inferior to Shadow Sneak on any set that needs priority, since it's unreliable, and the base power difference is quite negligible - However, Sucker Punch does give you the OHKO against the Latis (assuming choice band), so that could be somewhat important. Pursuit is just too weak and I don't think we're going to find room for it even on all-out attacking sets, with the existence of Shadow Claw and the general importance of coverage. You could use it to trap-kill Alakazam and maybe Latios or a stupid Gengar, but you aren't getting OHKO's on anything else and you certainly aren't using it for coverage. You should allow it.

-will edit further later

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Upon reading the further discussion, I find that Dark-type coverage moves are redundant with Ghost-type moves and always inferior, so they should be allowed. In this vein I've moved Crunch, Payback, and Night Slash to allowed and Sucker Punch and Pursuit to needs discussion. Those two moves have unique applications as far as roles go in the game, and I think they merit further discussion. I've also moved Horn Leech to allowed because there was pretty much unanimous support for it, and moved Power Whip to Controversial because I see both sides and am unconvinced by either as of yet. I allowed Night Shade / Seismic Toss due to BMB's argument, which is convincing in support of them. They will only be seriously usable on support sets that otherwise need love. Furthermore, I moved all recoil moves (Brave Bird, Volt Tackle, Wild Charge, Wood Hammer) to disallowed because CAP 2's style is to be a bulky attacker, and without Rock Head those moves are the antithesis of such a notion. Lastly, I added a few moves I was reminded of to pending.

Check the OP for updated lists.

 

[CuteandScary]

May I ask why Wood Hammer is Disallowed? It seems that it is weaker then Power Whip and has a recoil making it hard to use on a non-offensive/leech-seeding set.

I feel giving Nocturna Electric-Type attacks gives some pretty good neutral coverage against Jirachi and Heatran while giving super-effective coverage on Skarmory (but if we gave Noct thunder-fang i doubt the effectiveness of it). Hydregion resists electric type moves meaning it would still work kinda.

I also don't think that giving Noct ice-type moves is very helpful except on Hydregion. It would also give it the ability to hit I believe all the dragon in OU hard.

 

[Eggsrcute]

Pursuit and sucker punch would be greatly beneficial to this pokemon. Her speed is nothing special and sucker punch is a powerful priority that would hit other ghosts hard. Also, with pursuit trap other ghosts that try to escape a sucker punch. It will require some predictions though. Volt switch would allow her to get out of battle with flying types, but it won't do much as her special attack is lacking and her speed is lacking too, she might just get demolished before she can get a hit in. U-turn can be useful in the right situation maybe against a dark pokemon switch in but with her mediocre speed, she might get demolished. But the one thing I'm starting to see that scares me is that she might get too powerful. But, being too powerful is never a bad thing when you're the one using her. :)

 

[canno]

U-turn and Volt Switch should definitely be disallowed. By giving it U-Turn/Volt Switch, we're giving it options to scout without having to use it's Sketch move, which I think would derail the concept too much. Also, it allows Necturna to escape from slower threats and switch into a counter while applying momentum (example: Heatran is suppose to be a primary check, however, with U-turn/Volt Switch it can outspeed and switch into a counter while also dealing out damage. If she were to continuously do this, Heatran will eventually receive too much chip damage and get killed by a teammate or a coverage move.)

 

[jas61292]

OK, let me preface this by saying that I am strongly against all moves that would be used over a Hidden Power.

I would like to state my agreement with this statement. This CAP is about testing the versatility of Sketch, and so we really need to limit its movepool to make Sketch be the focus of a set. Having moves that can provide reliable coverage without having to resort to Hidden Power may very well just make this pokemon too powerful. This does not however mean that all special moves over 70 power should be disallowed. If a move has redundant or undesirable coverage then there is no reason not to allow it, with moves like Flash Cannon being a good example. While it has more power than HP, the coverage it grants only helps out against Ice types who are terrible defensively anyways.

However, even more so than generic coverage moves, I think we need to avoid any move that could be the focus of a set. Sets should focus on Sketch, and anything that would take that away, or, more likely, create a dual use set, is not something we should be giving it. I think the important moves that fit this category are U-Turn, Volt Switch, Dragon Tail, and Stored Power are the biggest concerns in this way and should thus be disallowed.

Additionally, we should avoid anything that will place an emphasis on weather. The emphasis needs to stay on Sketch, so any weather abuse moves should have to be sketched. This means that Blizzard, Thunder and Hurricane should be disallowed.

As for moves that I think should be allowed, well I am rather undecided on many of the other ones. One that stands out to me on the Pending list though is Petal Dance. Without Own Tempo, it is a rather inferior move, bordering on noncompetitive. Locking yourself into a move with bad coverage that also leaves you confused is just not a good idea. And lets not forget it is not even coming off a very powerful SpA. Therefore I see no reason not to allow Petal Dance.

 

[Stratos]

Volt switch should be allowed; U-turn should be disallowed

At first I thought both should be allowed, but when I paid closer attention, I realized that U-turn had many powerful advantages over Volt Switch and should not be allowed.

First, Volt Switch should be allowed because it heightens greatly the viability of choice sets. It hardly improves over Ghost/Grass coverage (gyarados but not much else) but lets Necturna scout, making viable both Scarf and Band sets. It is guaranteed to be weak because it cannot be used on a boosting set (well i guess it can if you're an idiot but...) I neglect Specs because, to put it simply, the low SpAtk and Spe make it not even close to worth it. for these reasons I am confident it will NOT replace HP electric at any time!

U-turn, however, is far more powerful in this instance. For one, it grants Super Effective coverage on Hydreigon, and coming off of base 120 Atk, fully invested with either Scarf or Band will leave a major dent in a would-be counter without resorting to a Sketch Move. Another issue is that it, unlike Volt Switch, will be coming off of an Attack stat close to that of Landorus, who, as we know, hits like a truck.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Alright, there was some irc discussion of the moves up for debate, and I wanted to post to give a recap and state my opinions on the moves themselves.

Pursuit: It seems like a bad idea. And then you find out that it really isn't. Pursuit would open the way for a Choice Band set, or at least make it more prominent. However, it is almost certainly not overpowering. According to calcs run on iRC, Pursuit from max attack choice band Pursuit to Physically Bulky Politoed does about 30%. Even to Jellicent, Pursuit only deals roughly 60% maximum. Obviously, it hits harder against things like Gengar, Lati@s, Alakazam, Starmie, and Celebi. I will not deny that choice band pursuit has its uses, but given the fact that Scizor and Tyranitar exist, I can not see this being a particularly popular set by any means, or anywhere close to broken.

Sucker Punch: I have about the same feelings as Pursuit. It is entirely redundant after a Shift Gear or Shell Smash except for fighting priority users, many of whom don't take much from it anyways. Special sets really wouldn't use it either. The only time this would forseeably be a very good choice would be with coil, where it would be its check on faster special threats such as Starmie.

And then I realised that this leaves it entirely walled by quite a few Pokemon, so it's still not a very good option. To be honest, both Pursuit and Sucker Punch seem really good in theory, but I can't see them being very common or good in practice, so I believe they should be allowed.

Volt Switch and U-Turn: These I firmly believe need to stay off of CaP2. Skarmory and Hydreigon are listed counters to it. While I respect that she can obviously deal with all of her counters given the right sketch move, the point is she has to use the sketch move. It makes no sense for her to have a move that hits a counter for super effective damage, especially these. Not only does Skarm take massive damage for trying to switch into a CaP2 with Volt Switch, it now finds itself in a disadvantageous match-up. The same goes for Hydreigon and U-turn. Since this keeps her counters from switching in effectively, I would like to think that it should not be allowed.


Dragon Tail: This would be an amazing move to be honest. And I think we should allow it. While most sets will be boosting, this makes bulky sets sketching a coverage move or spore better. If it naturally gets substitute, all the better. With the ability to phaze, and force switches with Sacred Fire or Spore, this thing could be every bit as powerful defensively as it is offensively, which I think is needed to best allow it to abuse the full extent of sketch. For instance, bulky sets of:

Dragon Tail/Sketch Move/Substitute/Horn Leech

would be as powerful in a way as a Shell Smash set with the ability to sketch Spore, Sacred Fire, Spikes, and Recover for the fourth slot present. Otherwise, I'm not sure it could really abuse the last two, and the full potential of spore would be limited

If it doesn't get substitute, it could still be quite effective as a bulky Pokemon regardless.

Either way, I believe it needs something to make defensive sets as viable as offensive ones to fully get the most of sketch, and Dragon Tail is a great way of doing it and should be allowed.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Anyway....looking back at the Checks / Counters discussion, I'm not actually seeing what Power Whip would do that's better than what Leaf Blade already does. Pretty much everything that we wanted to be a check / counter either 4x resists grass, survives a +0 Power whip and outruns / ohkos, or survives a +1 Power Whip and kos back. What this basically means is that Power Whip will only make a difference against generic physical walls (like the aforementioned Gliscor, defensive Gyarados, etc) and as a hard-hitting STAB on choice sets.

 

[Eggsrcute]

I was originally sort of for U-turn and Volt Switch. But after listening to certain arguments, I am now against it. The goal is to make a pokemon that utilizes one sketch move to change the game. Not to make an ultimate pokemon. As you can see, this pokemon is pretty much a boss already. Great bulk and superb attack stat. However, in our effort to make a movepool to create this pokemon, we are forgetting the idea of sketch. If you want versatility, then the pokemon should be able to use sketch to get the move. U-turn is far too useful for her as it counters hydreigon and such. It also allows her to be a scout so she can switch in a teammate to handle a situation safely. I'm not saying that scouting is bad for her, but if you want scouting, you should just sketch it instead of loading this pokemon with superb moves to counter everything

 

[uwnim]

Megahorn should be disallowed.

With life orb, it can 1HKO Hydreigon with a neutral nature and no boosts.
With Shift Gear and Life Orb, Jirachi cannot safely switch in because it can be 2HKOd.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I fail to see how OHKO'ing Quagsire with a grass move by a large margin breaks it.

If anything, she needs the power so she doesn't have to rely on Shell Smash or some other boosting move to get kills. The goal here is to let it best abuse sketch and see what the best move in certain situations would be. While boosting should be viable, it should not be the only option. Therefore, I believe she needs at least one powerful physical STAB so she can abuse offensive coverage options as well as boosting and (hopefully) supporting/defensive moves. Otherwise, we are simply controlling things so sketch does X and learning very little about the metagame.

And Shell Smash Power Whip will be insanely powerful. It still does not OHKO certain threats it needs to, and leaves it prone to being walled by certain Pokemon (Scizor, Heatran, Skarm). This will not be an easy Pokemon to take down, but I very highly doubt it would be overpowering.

 

[canno]

X-Scissor and Bug Buzz should also be disallowed because the coverage gained from these moves is small, but it's good enough. Bug-type hits Grass, Dark, and Psychic Super Effectively, not to mention 8 out of the 17 types are hit neutrally by Bug-type. The key one here is Dark-type, meaning it gets Super Effective coverage on one of it's counters, Hydreigon, without having to run a Sketch move. Speaking of Hydreigon, he receives 79.4% - 93.5% damage with 0/0 defenses from LO Max Atk Adamant X-Scissor with no boosts, which is a OHKO with SR up, meaning he cannot switch into it.

Bug Buzz main reason is that it's better than Hidden Power, which shouldn't be outclassed as a coverage option.

EDIT: After looking at a type chart, I can say that the only thing that walls Bug/Grass/Ghost is Steel. Everything else is hit neutrally (assuming mono-type)