Alright at this point I can see Garchomp was a bad example so I apologize. My main point was that I don't advocate players using luck-oriented strategies in an competitive environment.1. We are not evaluating SwagPlay as an overcentalization of the metagame. Your point about Garchomp is different entirely as Gar. Lacking any "solid counters or checks" is not necessarily grounds for a ban. For example, before Gen VI, technically Shadow Tag and Arena Trap literally had no counters by nature of the ability, but trapping was not banned. Garchomp with Sand Veil was banned because of its combination, not because of any singular piece.
2. I assert that SwagPlay is not inherently a gimmicky non-strategic thoughtless luck-based playstyle for reasons in this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/swagplay-evaluating-potential-bans.3500620/page-29#post-5263118 . I ask for a clarification on what makes ANY given strategy gimmicky and furthermore why any strategy that is defined as gimmicky under your definition should be banned.
3. I disagree with the argument that it is unfair to lose due to parafusion. It's the exact same argument as something like "It's unfair for any player, noob or veteran, to lose to motherf*cking Ice Beam freeze change." Yes, there will be luck and hax in Pokemon, as you have stated. I believe that iterated SwagPlay, however, is more reliable than your cited "luck factors", making it more of a strategy and less chance.
4. I believe that with these refutations, I am making the point that SwagPlay is in fact competitive and non-luck oriented. It is indeed frowned upon in a competitive environment, but I believe that it should be allowed without a clause. A Confusion clause would constrain an entire set of teams which are backed by this strategy.
I await your response!
We already discovered NUMEL/NATUI think this discussion needs to be held off for a little while. I think the ingenuity of Smogon will find a solution to the SwagPlay strategy in team-building: if it does, then the issue has been solved.
If it cannot, then this discussion needs to be held again. I think this is comparable to the Stealth Rock discussion of Gen 4. A new strategy is introduced that many players are frustrated against because they are unprepared for it. I don't think the issue here is that the strategy can't be beat, but that people are unprepared for it and as it becomes more well-known more people flock to it. Maybe we'll see more Lum Berries, Mental Herbs, and other such things. Maybe we'll see more Taunters, more Pokemon with Own Tempo, I don't know. But I think seeing what the team-building response to Prankster teams running around throwing Thunder Wave and Swagger is before something gets flat-out thrown out.
Harunosux. This is all just a ploy to make sure swag play remains unbanned since without it how am I supposed to win OST?!?!You're forgetting about Fire Blast Absol Mega, Haruno, what are you, bad or something???
Yeah, Ferrothorn doesnt exist.Whoa whoa whoa, let's not shit on Stunfisk here. That fish was the best paraflinch counter back in Gen 5.
Own Tempo is unviable, Lilligant and non-regenerator Slowbro sucks, Taunters can hit themselves, and Lum berry is one time use.I think this discussion needs to be held off for a little while. I think the ingenuity of Smogon will find a solution to the SwagPlay strategy in team-building: if it does, then the issue has been solved.
If it cannot, then this discussion needs to be held again. I think this is comparable to the Stealth Rock discussion of Gen 4. A new strategy is introduced that many players are frustrated against because they are unprepared for it. I don't think the issue here is that the strategy can't be beat, but that people are unprepared for it and as it becomes more well-known more people flock to it. Maybe we'll see more Lum Berries, Mental Herbs, and other such things. Maybe we'll see more Taunters, more Pokemon with Own Tempo, I don't know. But I think seeing what the team-building response to Prankster teams running around throwing Thunder Wave and Swagger is before something gets flat-out thrown out.
4 Swagplay users + Chansey counter + DittoI'm confused, why is everyone saying SwagPlay is "uncompetitive"? The essence of competitive is to win, and if this strategy can win without being overpowered or overcentralizing then I fail to see the "uncompetitiveness".
Drat. Okay, I'll rephrase that.The First Amendment protects you from the government, not from an informal group of gamers who aren't interested in your ridiculous comparisons.
And it's just silly to say that only support Pokemon use perfectly accurate moves. Let's take a look at the S-ranked Pokemon, shall we? Mega Pinsir pretty much exclusively uses Return / Quick Attack / Earthquake / Swords Dance, and alternatives like Substitute and Close Combat still don't miss. Mega Charizard X tends to use Dragon Dance, Flare Blitz, Outrage... It can use Will-o-wisp for a bulky set, but its sweeping sets are plenty accurate. Aegislash is perfectly accurate except on unusual sets where it plans to blow itself up with a Head Smash. The main inaccurate moves you'll see from S rank are Fire Blast and Focus Blast from Mega Charizard Y and Thundurus-I, and both of those moves are quite well known for being iffy because of their accuracy failing at the wrong times, to the point where Pokemon that can get away with it often avoid them. Focus Blast's power/accuracy are reminiscent of Hurricane, a move that made Tornadus-T a monster in Gen 5, but now that it can't easily abuse Drizzle to remove that accuracy, it's lost a lot of notoriety. And that's just a move with a 30% miss chance, not the 50% miss chance Confusion adds to every move!
Because it turns matches into a dice roll. If you roll a 6, then you win. You could be the best OU player in the world and lose 15% of games to Swagplay users who you would otherwise only lose 1% of the time to if they were using any other playstyle.I'm confused, why is everyone saying SwagPlay is "uncompetitive"? The essence of competitive is to win, and if this strategy can win without being overpowered or overcentralizing then I fail to see the "uncompetitiveness".
It's EZ!! Just lead with Absol.Harunosux. This is all just a ploy to make sure swag play remains unbanned since without it how am I supposed to win OST?!?!
In all seriousness though, absol can't switch in without being mevo already. SO CUZ IT CANT SWITCH IN ON WHATEVER THEN IT ISNT A COUNTER! ALSO FIRE MISS
I see your attempt to be sarcastic, but it failed. Your team is consists of a good revenge killer, a counter to a common wall, and four pokemon all using the same strategy. Seems viable enough to me, and considering this thread exists it has been doing good work.4 Swagplay users + Chansey counter + Ditto
THE MOST COMPETITIVE THING EVER
If the top OU player loses 15% of the time, then that means SwagPlay fails 85% of the time. How is something that fails 85% of the time even close to broken?Because it turns matches into a dice roll. If you roll a 6, then you win. You could be the best OU player in the world and lose 15% of games to Swagplay users who you would otherwise only lose 1% of the time to if they were using any other playstyle.
Who the fuck needs a revenge killer when you have 4 mons spamming prankster twave. Get Gud plzI see your attempt to be sarcastic, but it failed. Your team is consists of a good revenge killer, a counter to a common wall, and four pokemon all using the same strategy. Seems viable enough to me, and considering this thread exists it has been doing good work.
If the top OU player loses 15% of the time, then that means SwagPlay fails 85% of the time. How is something that fails 85% of the time even close to broken?
Ditto is there to copy swagger boosts in case things get out of hand, not as a revenge killer.Who the fuck needs a revenge killer when you have 4 mons spamming prankster twave. Get Gud plz
Is viable because you can kill everything with pure luck.I see your attempt to be sarcastic, but it failed. Your team is consists of a good revenge killer, a counter to a common wall, and four pokemon all using the same strategy. Seems viable enough to me, and considering this thread exists it has been doing good work.
I'm well aware. You quoted the wrong post lolDitto is there to copy swagger boosts in case things get out of hand, not as a revenge killer.
Because it's another viable strategy. Just because it makes you upset doesn't make it fair ground to be banned.Is viable because you can kill everything with pure luck.
Again, if swagplay can be checked or countered isn't the point.
The question is: why we need swagplay?
I was answering your quote to the post that said "4 swagplay, chansey counter, and ditto."I'm well aware. You quoted the wrong post lol
These same exact arguments apply to the early Gen 4 meta.Pokemon have better items to run than things like Mental Herb and Lum Berry. Azumarill prefers Choice Band, Ferrothorn wants Leftovers and Charizard wants that Mega Stone. Own Tempo Pokemon aren't generally found in the OU metagame and some of them have better abilities to run (i.e Slowbro)
Actually, gen 2 didn't have prankster or Liepard who got priority with confusion+attack boost+paralyze+damage based on their attack stat. Also the main reason this is being discussed now is Klefki, a steel fairy, something gen 2 could never have imagined.Oh hi everyone. Though I'd put my two cents into this.
Q1. Ban Swagger?
No. Swagger as a move has existed since Gen II. Clearly if it had Uber-broken potential it would be have been banned four generations ago. So is Swagger the problem? No, its not. The move hasn't changed at all.
Then clearly the problem isn't Swagger. Clearly its the other things introduced.Actually, gen 2 didn't have prankster or Liepard who got priority with confusion+attack boost+paralyze+damage based on their attack stat. Also the main reason this is being discussed now is Klefki, a steel fairy, something gen 2 could never have imagined.
So your answer is to ban Swagger when it alone isn't even the issue, totally shutting down completely unrelated strategies that non-Prankster Pokemon use? That's lovely.Actually, gen 2 didn't have prankster or Liepard who got priority with confusion+attack boost+paralyze+damage based on their attack stat. Also the main reason this is being discussed now is Klefki, a steel fairy, something gen 2 could never have imagined.
Any - and I mean just about any - specially focussed fairy. The following examples are all +6 Atk (but zero attack IVs), which SwagPlay users never typically reach:[In regards to resisting a dark type with low attack]Name a few in the OU environment please. The only commonly used one I can think of is Keldeo. For whom ironically the useless attack boost from Justify makes Swagger+Foul play a bigger problem
You should give people the respect to address their comments properly, if you do not do so I won't address you again.[In regards to Inflitrator usage]Wut?
Fine I'll concede, this is one of the more risky counter measures you can take.[In regards to Taunt/Encore]Doesn't stop turn one 50/50. Same for taunt except Thundy, who ironically is a prominent prankster user himself...
As a one off measure, it works fine, if you're facing a whole team granted you might have issues.[In regards to Lum Berries]Please don't.
How about Jolteon, Raikou, Magnezone, Zapdos, Thundurus, Heliolisk or Manectric? They're OU viable even if they're not common, and some of them have low attack scores.[In regards to electric type] Yes ok cool. Rotom and.... and? **Checks the top mons in viability list again** (not to mention if it loses the first 50/50 it loses period, since it doesn't have reliable recovery)
It's not a hard counter, but it certainly works quite a bit of the time against a strategy that's shaky at best.[In regards to ground type] You do know ground is a primarily physical type? you know that, don't you? DON'T YOU?
It has wider distribution than just psychic type, and some psychic types have reasonable defense (0 Atk EVs):Deoxys-S... yeah right let's use a psychic type with paper thin defences against foul play. Deo-D and smeargle cannot do anything back.
It's on my current team, due to it's good bulk it works like a charm. It may not be extremely meta, but it's far from a bad strategy.[In regards to a Rain Dance Hydration user]Hi BW2 is an outdated meta. Good luck using Rain Dance Manaphy
I didn't recommend anything, I was just pointing out that people are hardly limited in their options as you're trying to make out. Talonflame is much more limiting - you have to have something that can with stand CB priority STAB 120 Brave Bird or a STAB 120 Flare Blitz. Talonflame is also very, very meta and people also put it on there teams because of ease of use (clicking Brave Bird is no more skillful than going through the motions of SwagPlay in essence if you shoehorn Talonflame onto your team with no synergy). Obviously we're not here to discuss Talonflame so I won't take it any further, but I see Talonflame much more than I see Prankster SwagPlay and it shapes any team I decide to make perhaps more so than any other concern.[In regards to what I said were potential strategies]
>doesn't have a centralising effect on teambuilding
>Recommends shit like Own Tempo and Limber.
I wouldn't care if Moody was unbanned, all the pokemon that get it are pretty terrible anyway - there wasn't much point in banning it IMO. Evasion you can't really counter, other than using subpar perfect accuracy moves which you don't have to with SwagPlay. Also Evasion is so broken that practically everyone would use it if it were unbanned, not everyone uses SwagPlay by far - I probably see it only 1/10 matches if that.I'm convinced, let's unban moody and evasion.
What strategy is there that uses swagger w/o prankster or foul play? I've really only seen swagger used by Liepard and Klefki.So your answer is to ban Swagger when it alone isn't even the issue, totally shutting down completely unrelated strategies that non-Prankster Pokemon use? That's lovely.
This is such a shitty argument that completely ignore precedent set by Evasion and OHKO clause, are you saying that evasion moves are okay cause, "MUH AERIAL ACE," or OHKO is okay cause "MUH STURDY?" This just completely ignores the big picture about the competitiveness of the meta game and frankly shows little knowledge of how bans like these have worked in the past.These same exact arguments apply to the early Gen 4 meta.
Rapid Spin: "Pokémon have better moves to run than Rapid Spin. Starmie prefers Recover or Psychic, Blastoise prefers Sleep Talk or Toxic, and Tentacruel prefers Giga Drain or Substitute." Didn't stop the natural evolution of these Pokémon into the premiere Rapid Spinners of their tiers. A need was there -- Stealth Rock removal that easily fit into teams -- and these Pokémon filled it.
Sturdy: "Sturdy Pokémon aren't generally found in the OU metagame and some of them have better abilities to run (e.g. Aggron)." And then suddenly something happened in Gen 4 that changed everything and made Sturdy the must-have ability on many Pokémon with access to it.
It isn't just Safeguard or Own Tempo: this applies to all moves and abilities that were second fiddle until Gen n but that become the top dogs in Gen n because of the different landscape of the Gen n meta. If we reach a meta where Explosion is restored to its former power of 250 x 2 (or effectively 500) base power, and if there were some Pokémon who had a hilariously OP ability like "Self-destruction moves do not cause the user to faint but instead cause the user to lose 50% of their remaining HP," then putting aside Smogon's knee-jerk reaction to ban such an ability, you can bet that people would begin to run Damp left and right: even though, in the current metagame, no one in their right mind would run Damp over Water Absorb or even pitiful Torrent. If we reach a metagame where Safeguard finally has OU relevance, are we to ban any and all factors which have resulted in this outcome, desperately preserving the status quo of earlier generations we're so comfortable with? Or do we say, "Hey! The times are a-changin' and Safeguard, after being irrelevant for so many years in OU 6v6 Singles, finally has a reason to be here again. Wow. :) How about that." Saying that Pokémon "have better things to do than to run Safeguard" is not an answer. It wasn't an answer for Rapid Spin & Stealth Rock in Gen 4 and it isn't any better an answer now. If the metagame has shifted to make certain older moves, abilities, and/or Pokémon into the lords of the new era, then so be it.
This isn't about whether it is a viable or good strategy, it is about whether or not it is a competitive strategy, and whether or not it is healthy for a competitive meta game, and I don't see how introducing a series of coin flips is at all competitive.Because it's another viable strategy. Just because it makes you upset doesn't make it fair ground to be banned.