There is a lot of hax difference, a confusion means you aren't going to move for a turn half the time, a burn means you get warn down slightly faster. Whether it is fishing or not is irrelevant in this situation.It's fishing for a 30% burn chance vs fishing for a 50% confusion self-hit. There's not much difference hax-wise going on here, you're just fishing either way.
Is multiple pokemon the criteria for a move to get banned? What if in SUMO there is another relevant pokemon with 100% accurate dynamic punch, are we then allowed to ban it? And if we are, why couldn't we ban dpunch before, when there was only one less pokemon that had it?Swagger was broken on several pokemon. Smashpass could be used on more than one pokemon. Is Dynamic Punch actually a problem on several pokemon? So far nobody has said that machop or golett have been causing problems.
burn can suck but it's not the same thing as confusion. zach once beat me in a doubles game where i had an overwhelming advantage because he brought double swagger and i hit myself 8/8 times. burn doesn't have that capacity to completely bullshit you.It's fishing for a 30% burn chance vs fishing for a 50% confusion self-hit. There's not much difference hax-wise going on here, you're just fishing either way.
And burn is just as detrimental to many pokemon as much as confusion is imo.
Sure if you leave out the other effects of burn it doesn't sound bad. Let's not forget it halves your attack (so damage-wise you're attacking every two turns if you're physical), and also doesn't heal naturally over a few turns or if you switch out unlike confusion.There is a lot of hax difference, a confusion means you aren't going to move for a turn half the time, a burn means you get warn down slightly faster. Whether it is fishing or not is irrelevant in this situation.
I agree burn has a lot fewer variables involved and is therefore less uncompetitive. My main point is thatburn can suck but it's not the same thing as confusion. zach once beat me in a doubles game where i had an overwhelming advantage because he brought double swagger and i hit myself 8/8 times. burn doesn't have that capacity to completely bullshit you.
the effect chance of the move inflicting the status is entirely irrelevant. the question is: is the status you're trying to inflict inherently uncompetitive? If yes, moves which serve no purpose except to inflict that status are obviously uncompetitive. My argument is that yes, confusion is inherently uncompetitive, so any move with no purpose except inflicting confusion (eg dynamicpunch) is as well.
is not a good reason to enforce a move ban seeing as something like Keldeo, which is used primarily for its offensive presence, chooses to run a move that is weaker than Surf for a move that, like dynamicpunch, only serves to fish for hax while dealing damage, and while many people want scald gone it's not happening anytime soon.Machoke is an otherwise healthy addition to the tier just with an uncompetitive move, which can easily be replaced
But the thing is, even here, you're not saying that Dynamic Punch itself is the problem. You say "100% accurate dynamic punch". This implies that No Guard + Dynamic Punch is the problem. Vanilla Dynamic Punch is not a broken move. Just like many other cases where something was broken with something else, there have been complex bans. When baton pass dominated the ladder, baton pass was never banned outright. When Swift Swimmers in BW OU were a problem, Swift Swim wasn't banned outright. When endless battles were deemed an issue, Leppa Berry wasn't banned outright. It doesn't seem to me that Dynamic Punch in itself is a problem worthy of being banned.Is multiple pokemon the criteria for a move to get banned? What if in SUMO there is another relevant pokemon with 100% accurate dynamic punch, are we then allowed to ban it? And if we are, why couldn't we ban dpunch before, when there was only one less pokemon that had it?
I think this is the key quote in the thread. I'm not going to wade into the confusion vs uncompetitive thing which IMO has derailed this thread slightly, and focus on that quote. The above quote states that at least some members of the council consider Machoke uncompetitive because confusion grants a 50/50 shot at losing to it. I can understand this, and I can understand why people might want to keep it around. Without much personal knowledge of the tier it appears to be one of the pillars of a tankier team. Your issue though, is No Guard + Dynamic Punch which means that your option is pretty much let it go, or ban Machoke.There's been some discussion on this here, and the problem lies in the fact that Machoke itself is healthy for the tier, being a staple on bulkier teams and keeping major threats like Golem and Pawniard in check, that could otherwise be big problems for the tier. What makes it unhealthy and what's really just uncompetitive is the combination of Dynamic Punch + No Guard, which makes Pokemon that could be checks rely on 50/50s to even beat Machoke.
You're making the mistake of thinking that just because something sucks ass, it's not uncompetitive. But in the past we've banned Lax Incense—an item which absolutely sucks ass—for being uncompetitive under evasion clause. As for sleep, the comparison is interesting until you remember that Sleep is actually so uncompetitive (in singles at least) that we break game mechanics to nerf it. Paralysis still has an expected value in favor of the victim, but Confusion's 50/50 ability to grant free turns can easily remove your ability to play around it with just a bit of bad luck, and doesn't have any "legitimate" effects like paralysis does to compensate for it. It's just bullshit.As for Dynamic Punch - it is obviously not banworthy, because of it's shaky 50% accuracy (which essentially equates to 50% chance to even inflict confusion). It is clear that the problem is attributable to Machoke. Without Machoke's relatively high Atk & tankiness (in PU's standard I assume), STAB, and most importantly No Guard, Dynamic Punch would be an irrelevant move.
The criteria for a move to get banned is it being broken on every mon it is used on. This is how Chatter and Moody were able to get banned and why Dynamic Punch won't be banned.Is multiple pokemon the criteria for a move to get banned? What if in SUMO there is another relevant pokemon with 100% accurate dynamic punch, are we then allowed to ban it? And if we are, why couldn't we ban dpunch before, when there was only one less pokemon that had it?
Mechanically, swagger was the exact same on Sunkern as it was on anything else. Dynamic Punch is NOT the same on Machoke compared to other mons. If we ban a move for uncompetitiveness, it is because the mechanics of the move are wholly uncompetitive. Is Dynamic Punch uncompetitive on every mon? Is Dynamic Punch uncompetitive when it is 100% accurate? Is Dynamic Punch uncompetitive when it is 100% accurate and used by Machoke? The reasons for wanting to ban Dyanmic Punch are because it is uncompetitive when 100% accurate and used by Machoke. In this case, Machoke is what needs to be suspected, not Dyanmic Punch.was swagger broken on sunkern that stupid truism needs to die
Dunno if there's any gen 6 competitive implications but Dynamicpunch is a legitimate coverage move in Gen 2 on mixed attackers, and especially on Gengar who otherwise is heavily checked by Tyranitar. This raises the implication of possibility that Dpunch has actual use outside of confusion whoring.theres no reason to use dynamicpunch on machoke except confusion, literally none. I think that it is mechanically the same on every Pokemon. There's no reason to use it on Machoke except to fish for confusion, and theres no reason to use it on, idk, Tyranitar, except for to fish for confusion. It's just as uncompetitive on any other Pokemon as on Machoke, just worse. Same as Swagger being just as uncompetitive on Sunkern as Klefki, just worse. You can't say that a +1 prio confusion move and a +0 prio confusion move are mechanically identical any more than a 100% and 50% accurate one.
If this is the case then I have the simplest reason ever that we can't ban Scald:Except banning Dynamic Punch would take something like a 100 BP Fighting Type move (it has Hammer Arm but that lower speed, so Dynamic Punch is objectively superior) from Golett. Similar for other mons, except obviously they don't use it due to the accuracy. Banning Dynamic Punch has actual competitive implications. Banning Swagger didn't.