Soiramio3000
Banned deucer.
garganacl is a bad example since it barely counts as a wall.
it is more like a "bulky offense" pokemon like skeledirge rather than a wall like toxapex.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
it is more like a "bulky offense" pokemon like skeledirge rather than a wall like toxapex.
In the replay, the Pao user was a dingus. He let his banded Pao locked into sucker without switching out. Realistically that will never happen if the Pao user is smart enough to know how sucker works
Soiramio3000
Banned deucer.
the video proves the chien pao despite being somewhat unbalanced it is not the "win button" that you people make it out to be.
also ever heard of hazards?
It is easy to know how to use sucker punch, as it tells you when you are in a live battle.
Hazards are a bad argument because to make the Pao user switch out, you have to force it out. And if you use Scizor for it, it will take HALF YOUR TEAM before dying to hazards (assuming 3 layers of spikes and SR. If there are less hazards, imagine how many more times can it come in again and kill a mon.)
Gren won't be allowed to drop to UU; last month Cinder got added on like the 29th and wasn't allowed to go to UU for that reason, even though it wasn't OU by usage.
As for which Pokemon may fall out of OU, I'd say Torkoal could fall with Sun falling off since Chi-Yu's ban. Azu, Quaquaval, Ceruledge, Iron Hands, and Pawmot would be the other candidates for dropping to UU, though I don't expect all of them will.
On the other hand, I don't think we'll see too many Pokemon rise to OU. Pelipper was very close last month and could do it this time, Orthworm has an outside shot since Cyclizar got banned, and maybe Espathra has finally gotten the popularity it needs to rise out of UUBL. Also Slowking is an OU-worthy Pokemon but its usage was very low in December and I doubt it has risen enough to reach OU this month. Outside of those four, there's nothing I would expect to rise.
If you're losing to stall that's a sign that you need to reevaluate how you're playing, not that stall is good, there's been a good amount of offensive pressure every gen to effectively deal with stall. Even with pao gone stall becoming the top play style is extremely unlikely. You don't have to be some kind of top tier player to beat it either, you just have to not click buttons mindlessly or go for the odds when unnecessary. Understand your own offensive pressure and take note of how they're responding, and practice patience. Being impatient is more often than not what'll trip people up in those matches and they make errors that they can't recover from such as letting key mons get statused or just attacking and letting their mons get chipped down. That or their team just can't break it in the first place, in which case you just move on and chalk it up as matchup.
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
Garganacl is 100% a wall. It sits there and salt cures your team while setting rocks and healing up with recover. (or iron defenses to +6 and body presses your helpless team to oblivion.) You can of course use it on non-stall playstyles but it is very clearly a wall.
I’ve seen some discussion on here that banning the sword kitty will buff stall to be ridiculous, and even if it makes stall better it’s NOT becoming the dominant play style. Blissey and Chansey lost it all (I ran into one on ladder with no-tera Tera Blast and Shadow Ball and it made me feel very bad for her) and Scald is basically gone, with Knock Off being pretty rare, yes it’s on the most common thing in the tier right now but still. Balance will enjoy a metagame with no Chien-Pao because that thing rips teams apart but stall is not common at all and it’d take a cataclysmic meta shift to make it the dominant play style.
Honestly, I don't like Belly Drum Azu. It's too high of a risk for too little reward. AV Azu just does the job better, without getting denied by faster mons keeping its HP down.With the Chien-Pao suspect test, there is a Pokemon that keeps being mentioned, that I like and have used a lot, yet that I feel very low about.
Belly Drum Azumarill
Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Liquidation
Azumarill rose to OU last month with the Belly Drum set being the most used one. This set is mostly seen on offensively oriented teams such as this one. Azu was able to check Pokemon such as Quaquaval, Baxcalibur, base Roaring Moon, and most notably 2 of the scariest Pokemon in the tier in Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao. A +6 Liquidation boosted by Tera Water is able to OHKO common switch-ins like Amoonguss and SpDef Toxapex. Likewise +6 Play Rough OHKOs Tera Water Garganacl and Water Absorb Clodsire. Priority Aqua Jet lets it get pass fast Pokemon and OHKOing most of them after Tera Water, Belly Drum and a bit of chip such as Dragapult, Gholdengo, Garchomp, and Iron Valiant. Despite all this solid qualities, Azumarill is nowhere to be seen on SPL and its usage on higher parts of the ladder has decreased a lot. So what happened? I will be talking about Belly Drum Azumarill which mostly runs the set above; it can however run some more speed to get the advantage on speed wars against Kingambit, Skeledirge, Corviknight, and opposing Azumarill.
Tier has changed a lot in the last month. Here are some ways in which said changes have affected Azu:
What are some common scenarios that Azu finds itself in?
- Cinderace was released: Azu can check a low health Cinderace thanks to Aqua Jet. Even a full health one won't want to take an Aqua Jet and lose to Volcarona later. However, it has to be careful of trying to set up in front of Cinderace since a Libero Gunk Shot would OHKO it.
- Greninja was released: Very recent change. Azu can switch-in once against Specs Greninja's Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam and threaten it out. It a 1 on 1 and just like against Cinderace, it has to be cautious of a potential Protean Gunk Shot.
- Chi-Yu's ban and Chien-Pao's rise: Chi-Yu ban sucks a lot for Azu, as non Tera Blast Grass gave it a space to set up. While Chien-Pao's rise definetely compensates it a bit, it is definitely much harder to do it. Azu actually does not enjoy switching into Chien-Pao at all. It can do it at most once, with Tera Dark Choice Band Crunch having a chance at 2HKOing Azu even through Sitrus Berry. Even if they don't tera, Azu getting weakened means that it will no longer be able to set up and that Chien-Pao becomes way more threatening.
- Rotom-Wash's rise: Greatly limits Azu. If it hard switches on Belly Drum then it can Volt Switch and limit Azumarill to at most 1 OHKO and maybe an Aqua Jet. If it hard switches on Play Rough then Azu probably lost a chance to set up. If it comes in after Azu Belly Drumed and OHKO something, then Azu is weakened enough for Volt Switch to KO.
- PhysDef and Baneful Bunker Toxapex: Last month saw a lot of SpDef and non Baneful Bunker Toxapex. Since then Pex has starting to run both to help teams deal with Chien-Pao. This along with Haze makes Pex a good answer to even +6 Tera Water Azu.
- Tera Water Great Tusk: Out of all the Tera types rising in usage, this one is probably the most problematic for Azu as it can revenge it rather easily after Azu has taken a bit of damage.
So whats up with Azumarill?
- Setting up against Chien-Pao: A full health Azumarill can try to do this. It however has to be worry of Chien-Paos partners like Toxapex and Dondozo. Chien-Pao can choose to stay and Crunch/Icicle Crash. If Azu Belly Drums as this happens, then they can sack something and then revenge Azu with a different partner like Tera Water Tusk, Extreme Speed Dragonite, or Rotom-Wash. If Azu Play Roughs then Chien-Pao will faint but Azu won't get to Belly Drum later on. Worth mentioning that Azu can still get flinched and no neither of the above.
- Skeledirge being faster: Unaware and Will-O-Wisp mess up with Azu. Running Speed EVs means that you heaviliy cut on bulk and are not even guaranteed to outspeed Skeledirge if they decide to go faster than ~16 Speed EVs and can just straight up not do anything if Skele decides to Tera.
- Tera Steel Taunt Quaquaval, Tera Grass Volcarona: The former can stop you from setting up in front of it while getting a chance to set up itself, while the latter stops you from sweeping their team and OHKOs you instead. While making the opponent waste their Tera can be considered a win, these Pokemon are far from useless and are likely to tera themselves in plenty of games.
- Setting up at all: Finding room to set up with Azu is hard since not many Pokemon besides Chien-Pao give it that opportunity. Screens and Shed Tail support can help but right now there are plenty other Pokemon that abuse them better such as Espathra, Roaring Moon and Dragonite. While this support would allow Azu to greatly improve its mu against teams that rely on chipping them + RotomW/Water Tusk/Priority to handle it, it would do nothing for its midly mus against Dondozo, PhysDef Toxapex and Skeledirge.
Overall Azu has a lot of flaws. It can be rather mediocre against Balance and even BO since they tend to carry Dondozo, Toxapex, Skeledirge and Rotom-W a lot. It can however be pretty lethal against more offensive teams such as this one. Its good mu against Chien-Pao, base Great Tusk, Greninja, Ting-Lu, Clodsire, Garganacl and Tauros-Paldea is still a valuable trade. I myself used this team with fast Azumarill paired with Breloom on my reqs run. Breloom is able to threaten Toxapex, Dondozo and Rotom-W, and work along Azu to weaken Skeledirge. Though I for sure do not think Belly Drum Azu is very good as is and that it is pretty mediocre to decent as a Chien-Pao answer.
Ty for reading c:
I really like this Pokemon and wish Choice Band could see more use, or maybe seeing it on some SPL game against an opponent that happens to like teams like the one above. I do hope I was able to communicate why I don't like the current state of this set.
Soiramio3000
Banned deucer.
garganacl uses damage dealing moves like earthquake and body press way too often to qualify as a wall.
but whatever, lets say it is a wall, it is still a bad example considering that this pokemon is pretty easy to deal with due to its rock-typying.
toxapex and corviknight are much harder to beat than garganacl.
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
Earthquake is rare on Garganacl. It does use Body Press a lot but its main function is sitting there and being impossible to kill.
Rock is a serviceable type, and Garganacl very readily Teras into types like Water.
Pex lost nearly everything that made it good. It’s pretty easy to deal with now, stuff like Gholdengo, Garganacl, Iron Treads, etc, pretty much anything immune to Toxic just invalidates it. Corv also gets sit on by Gholdengo as well as anything that survives a Body Press.
I predict Quaquaval, Iron Hands, and Iron Moth to drop. Maybe Espathra and Pelipper will rise, though I'm not so sure about them. Tauros will definitely see more usage, but probably not enough to rise. Greninja will likely be held in OU just like Cinderace. I'd imagine it being top ten (or at the very least 15) in usage for next month.
Now that I've made my future self cringe with all of these predictions, I want to say that I really like the tier right now! After a Chien-Pao (and maybe Garganacl?) ban, SV OU will be in a balanced state of still feeling new and fresh while having the problematic Pokemon banned.
corviknight would honestly recieve mixed results from chien-pao's ban. on one hand, it loses an extra amount of utility it had in checking it, but on the other hand, it no longer has to constantly keep itself healthy with roost in order to deal with it. pao getting banned would overall a net neutral for corv in the long run if you ask me
actually considering the fact that i am corviknight, should i talk about myself in the first or third person?
chien-pao cleaves through toxapex with tera dark crunch or if it gets off a swords dance, and pex is unable to threaten it in return. corviknight fares better against it thanks to it being able to actually threaten pao offensively but it has to keep itself fully healthy at all times and can still get blown past by SD sets. if corv is running iron defense then chien-pao is much less of a threat to it and its team
garganacl is a decent answer but like with corviknight, it has to keep itself healthy constantly with recover in order to function as a pao check, and it still has to be wary of sacred sword from banded sets. it's a nice soft check but if you're using garg as your team's primary chien-pao counter then i deeply implore that you find a better counter
standard scizor sets all get cleanly OHKO'd by tera dark crunch from banded sets and pao can SD as it comes in and still win the 1v1 thanks to sucker punch. scizor losing roost doesn't help it in this MU either as it no longer has the longevity to effectively check chien-pao
Soiramio3000
Banned deucer.
that's a lots of words here.
it is not that I am "ClIcKiNg BuTtOnS mInDlEsSlY"it is that some defensive pokemon like corviknight and toxapex are hard to beat if you don't have something that can take them down.
corviknight's typying lets it give the middle finger to almost anything.
also switching is a thing,so even if I get the proper counter to any defensive pokemon this does not mean that they will get to touch them.
toxapex's regeneraot ability often means that it does not even need to care about its neutral attacks.
I am not going to respond to the rest of your comment, you just using a lots of words in order to say that I am bad and stupid.
it doesn't need to be "top play", becoming "good" or at least "better than what it is now" is still a bad thing since stall limits the way teams are built and makes the game more boring.
this sentence is about as rude as it is wrong.
it is not that I am "ClIcKiNg BuTtOnS mInDlEsSlY"it is that some defensive pokemon like corviknight and toxapex are hard to beat if you don't have something that can take them down.
corviknight's typying lets it give the middle finger to almost anything.
also switching is a thing,so even if I get the proper counter to any defensive pokemon this does not mean that they will get to touch them.
toxapex's regeneraot ability often means that it does not even need to care about its neutral attacks.
I am not going to respond to the rest of your comment, you just using a lots of words in order to say that I am bad and stupid.
i'm pretty sure any viable team can shit on stall in this meta. some of the most used pokemon as of now are gholdengo, garganacl and chien-pao, among other things. those 3 pokemon alone absolutely ruin bulkier playstyles and all 3 do it in completely different ways so if you can't fit one of them onto your team then another will do and will do its job very well. if you're losing to stall in 2023 then it's highly likely that either your team is bad, your play was bad or you just got outplayed
every good team should already have answers to those pokemon. as i mentioned earlier, gholdengo beats both toxapex and corviknight pretty hard by virtue of its typing, bulk, power and especially its ability. by sending it out you essentially force your opponent into a disadvantageous position in which they're highly likely to either outright lose a pokemon or have one crippled for the rest of the game. and that's just one pokemon, too! you really just need to consider your options when teambuilding and what your team is weak to, and build around it. because that's what improvement is all about
If you think garg is easy to deal with then there's probably something that I'm missing. This thing walls so many things and beats so many things as well. It also has multiple amazing sets. Curse and rocks are my personal favorites but block and iron defense can work too. All of these sets have different answers.
That said you did get 1 thing right: rock is a garbage defensive type yes, but that's why you have tera, and garg is one of the best tera users in the tier. Fairy and water make it so only a few things beat you, and you can't know which one you're facing until the opponent teras. Yes cloak dengo can beat fairy physdef sr garg, but if it's tera water spdef curse, then good luck trying to break through it after it sets up just 1 curse, even tbolt (which is extremely rare) fails to 2hko.
Garg also has some of the best bulk in the tier. Yes it's not like blissey on the special side or tusk on the physical side, but 100/130/90 is still amazing and it's probably one of the best mixed/physical wall in the tier.
I won't deny that corv and pex are hard to break through, but they're very passive, especially pex, and that's a trait that you can use to beat them which is something you can't really do with garg unless you have a covert cloak mon and you already know the set they have can't threaten you, but there's probably only like 1 mon per team that falls under this category and after you get that mon out of the way, it's nearly impossible to beat.
Edit: this post came out more as a post about why I love using garg so much and why it should (probably I'm still not sure) be banned but my point still stands
∆ Bro, you have 262467257 wallbreakers that can beat Stall:
1. Spikes + Gholdengo + Knock Off user (Tusk, Treads or Meowscarada).
2. LO Iron Valiant.
3. LO SD Garchomp. Or LO Mixed Garchomp.
4. Band Tusk.
5. Specs Sandy Shocks + Mon that beats Blessed is one prediction away from beating everything.
6. Band Tera Electric Pawmot is one or two prediction away from beating the whole meta, not just Stall.
7. Sub (to avoid Toxic) Tera Water Skeledirge.
8. Specs Charizard in Sun.
9. Specs GLACEON beats every Stall Mon not named Blissey if you play it well.
10. Specs Pelipper.
11. SD Iron Hands
12. Block Garganacl.
13. Band Breloom.
14. Band Baxcalibur. I think there are like 3 (Corvi, Orthworm and Bronzong) Mons that live 2 hits of every Move in the whole Dex.
15. Tinted Lens Modest Venomoth with Roost + LO at least in theory should beat Stall teams.
16. Magnezone + Maushold. Or Magnezone + any Mon annoyed by Corviknight really.
This is what I can think in 5 mins, but there are many more. Even if a miracle happens and Stall somehow becomes the best team archetype, that is still not a bad thing and no excuse for Chien Pao to stay.
1. Spikes + Gholdengo + Knock Off user (Tusk, Treads or Meowscarada).
2. LO Iron Valiant.
3. LO SD Garchomp. Or LO Mixed Garchomp.
4. Band Tusk.
5. Specs Sandy Shocks + Mon that beats Blessed is one prediction away from beating everything.
6. Band Tera Electric Pawmot is one or two prediction away from beating the whole meta, not just Stall.
7. Sub (to avoid Toxic) Tera Water Skeledirge.
8. Specs Charizard in Sun.
9. Specs GLACEON beats every Stall Mon not named Blissey if you play it well.
10. Specs Pelipper.
11. SD Iron Hands
12. Block Garganacl.
13. Band Breloom.
14. Band Baxcalibur. I think there are like 3 (Corvi, Orthworm and Bronzong) Mons that live 2 hits of every Move in the whole Dex.
15. Tinted Lens Modest Venomoth with Roost + LO at least in theory should beat Stall teams.
16. Magnezone + Maushold. Or Magnezone + any Mon annoyed by Corviknight really.
This is what I can think in 5 mins, but there are many more. Even if a miracle happens and Stall somehow becomes the best team archetype, that is still not a bad thing and no excuse for Chien Pao to stay.
l play Balance mostly, and the amount of times people have called me a stall player because I have three walls on a team is also bizarre. Like, what.
In general, the amount of people who use the word Stall as if it equals bad is worrying. Offense is not all that is in the game. Offense having an opposite forces offense teambuilding to be better. Even in tiers where stall isn't good, it's a boogey man mentioned every few forum posts as if it's still a problem, or even close.
In general, the amount of people who use the word Stall as if it equals bad is worrying. Offense is not all that is in the game. Offense having an opposite forces offense teambuilding to be better. Even in tiers where stall isn't good, it's a boogey man mentioned every few forum posts as if it's still a problem, or even close.
Soiramio3000
Banned deucer.
okay you are right about that,sorry.
it is not thaaaaaat servicable.
garganacl has only 5 resistances.
and 3 of them aren't that common.
how often do you see poison-type normal and flying attacks this gen?
and its weaknesses on fighting ground aren't very helpful either.
corviknight's amazing typying lets it to give the middle finger to most types.
first of all the toxapex should have been banned in gen 8 too but somehow avoided the banhammer.
toxapex is still usefull despite the nerfs (its viability ranking is A).
its regenerator ability means that it rarely needs to care about the neutral hits.
I play balance as well, but haven't ran into this. Then again, I'm also using an age old team building style of 2 phys mons, 2 spec mons, 1 phys tank, 1 spec tank. I DO play with some bulky offensive mons, though. Namely Dengo, Dirge, and Azu.
Honestly, I've been finding that Espathra dies to Dirge a lot. And I mean A LOT. Not saying the stupid emu isn't stupid... But I'm finding it to be less and less of a problem with Unaware existing.
Ignoring the hazards comment when SD Boots is another common set and any team worth their Salt Cure will have Hazard Control for a Hazard-Weak heavy piece, Hazards are not going to KO Chien-Pao from full, meaning you have to be perfectly positioned for its potential entry most turns or it's nabbing a KO, considering its checks lack unexploitable-longevity and what the fuck revenge kills a 135 Speed Priority user with an effective Life Orb built into its damage?
And no one claimed it was a "win button," certainly not for a player piloting it poorly as in the replay shared (Choiced into a move like Sucker Punch is basically saying "free set-up turns here"). Most Pokemon when being called for a test are assumed to be in the hands of players who are reasonably competent and know what they're doing with it (hence why the Suspects have the qualification reqs for voting, it requires playing and winning a large number of games consistently during ladder time).
I feel like this is getting ridiculously specific as a definition for Walls then. Salt Cure and Body Press are its main attacking moves, the former for obvious reasons and the latter because it works off the stat that makes it a competent defensive team member. A Pokemon using offensive moves to specifically hit things it sits on doesn't mean it's an attacker instead of a wall.
For context, I would label a "Wall" as a Pokemon who adds to the team via defensive synergy to stave off offensive pressure much more than providing pressure of that sort against the opponent, which Garg definitely qualifies for. Body Press KOing things at +6 DEF still requires him to survive several turns to ID, and Recover is a staple to sit on Pokemon whilst not dealing much damage. You cite the Rock typing whilst ignoring one of the main notes/pitfalls of Garg being that it almost demands the team's Tera to go to a harder-to-break type. This is a flaw but I think honing in on that without addressing the latter point shows a lack of context for Garg's usage.
I think at the minimum, Stall being better or "good" = bad thing is a matter of opinion. Some players enjoy playing with Stall because some enjoy the idea of executing a long term plan with a roadmap to a win, akin to something like a Strategy game or even just other RPG's. Regardless, Stall becoming more prominent in Chien-Pao's absence is a non-factor in discussing it in this context, because the matter is whether or not the Meta with Chein-Pao is bad, not if the subsequent one is worse (as if tests can't be conducted if other mons have a strangling presence).
Corviknight and Toxapex are indeed hard to beat if you lack an answer, but one or both of them are among the most standard defensive presences in the tier, so it's not like this is a tall or very specific ask. Chien-Pao doesn't have to be "the answer" to them, but the fact that it can do such a significant amount of damage makes them significantly easier to deal with using less immediately-consistent checks. Toxapex's Regenerator is helpful to it when it can force the opponent to leave the field so it can swap out after interrupting their momentum, something it has a much harder time with this gen having lost Scald and Knock Off, and it can't leave on Chien-Pao just to Regenerator because if Chien hasn't been threatened, then whatever comes in next gets smacked and defeats the purpose of Tox trying to defensively check.
Soiramio3000
Banned deucer.
it is hard to tell if you are trolling or not.
you can't just "break stall", even if you include 1 or 2 stall breakers on your team there is no way to make it so that they can beat EVERY defensive pokemon out there.
and if you fill your team with wall breakers then it is going to underperform against any non-stall team.
also I don't think that some of the breakers you mentioned who uses glaceon in OU? this thing is not even on viability list)
So, you think that Stall Mons being viable is a bad thing but at the same time Mons whose purpose is to beat Stall Mons being somewhat viable because of that is also a bad thing? Won't even bother continue discussing with you, it's not worth it. I recommend the rest of the people that post in this thread to just ignore this dude, he hardly has a solution.
- Status