Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Honestly, the higher I've climbed on the ladder the less broken I've found gambit to be. Every team and every player is so prepped for it by this point that I cant remember the last time I saw kingambit reverse sweep through more than two pokemon, and even then it usually only happens due to something like a lucky iron head flinch. Especially now that straight up HO is dying off in favor of fatter cores(from my experience), its usually being asked to come in a lot more which means plenty of opportunities to chip it. It also hates zap being the best mon in the metagame. Using this thing feels so hard sometimes with all the hazards and helmets running around, it really forces you to get a lot of turns right to make the most of it.

i can understand that, i've seen that shift towards fatter stuff too (or maybe ou teams are just putting on winter weight) and that's harder for gambit to prey on. the problem is, it's difficult to tell how much of this is legitimate adaptation and how much is just gambit warping the meta around itself. i'm sure that if, say, volcarona or roaring moon were still in the tier, there would be people making the same points about them—given enough time, the meta can "adapt" to virtually anything. i've also seen people experimenting with the "gee bill, how come ou lets you have two kingambits" strat (i.e. gambit + bisharp) and from what i've seen it works surprisingly well at keeping gambit healthy by letting bisharp substitute for it in a lot of early and mid-game situations where it would normally have to come in and get chipped. the point is, i still maintain that kingambit is broken and it's been warping the meta for so long that it's made it hard to even tell it's doing it

 

[heileone]

i can understand that, i've seen that shift towards fatter stuff too (or maybe ou teams are just putting on winter weight) and that's harder for gambit to prey on. the problem is, it's difficult to tell how much of this is legitimate adaptation and how much is just gambit warping the meta around itself. i'm sure that if, say, volcarona or roaring moon were still in the tier, there would be people making the same points about them—given enough time, the meta can "adapt" to virtually anything. i've also seen people experimenting with the "gee bill, how come ou lets you have two kingambits" strat (i.e. gambit + bisharp) and from what i've seen it works surprisingly well at keeping gambit healthy by letting bisharp substitute for it in a lot of early and mid-game situations where it would normally have to come in and get chipped. the point is, i still maintain that kingambit is broken and it's been warping the meta for so long that it's made it hard to even tell it's doing it

I think the big difference between kingambit and the other broken mons you mentioned is that kingambit is slow and relies on sucker to kill stuff. This leaves it extremely vulnerable to stuff like encore or status or sub or even just defense boosting with bulk up/iron defense, ensuring that it still has counterplay even if it can get two boosts. With the other mons, you can make one mistake in the game and give them one boost and there is literally no way for you to deal with them. (and the margin of error for them is very slim its not like polteagheist). Its the reason why sneasler was banned.

 

[YubelVT]

I think the big difference between kingambit and the other broken mons you mentioned is that kingambit is slow and relies on sucker to kill stuff. This leaves it extremely vulnerable to stuff like encore or status or sub or even just defense boosting with bulk up/iron defense, ensuring that it still has counterplay even if it can get two boosts. With the other mons, you can make one mistake in the game and give them one boost and there is literally no way for you to deal with them. (and the margin of error for them is very slim its not like polteagheist). Its the reason why sneasler was banned.

Like even sneasler had one (1) hard wall in dondozo and some soft checks in the other unaware mons + zaptres. Kingambit has some hard walls and hard checks, but those are pokemon tasked with taking hits from other things too (+ the mindgames inherent with tera). Also like, you can just tailor your kingambit set to what you're scared of the most. Tera Fire mental herb shits on encore while letting it get an SD for free, which can just be the end of the game a lot of the time. Obviously the tier is getting to a point where it's relatively less likely for gambit to be able to tera than it was before, but it's always a factor you have to pay attention to. To be analogous for just a second, whenever I'm in an ideal endgame for OTR (offensive trick room) Calyrex-Ice in an Ubers game, I regularly check if they used tera on something even if I remember distinctly them clicking tera in response to something else. OTR Caly-Ice is kind of the Kingambit of ubers, except OTR Caly actually has at least one hard wall in Donbozo, which gambit can force itself past with kowtow or low kick

 

[pika pal]

Skill Swap annoys Hatterene and Gholdengo when they switch in, allowing you to para something for free should you keep your focus sash. Outside of that it trips up mons like dnite that rely on multi to shrug off hits after they dd tera normal. They're normally not dumb enough to stay in front of you if you're healthy tho.

Wait GaG doesn't block Skill Swap as a non-attack move that targets?

it doesn’t really, sure it would make sense, but keldeo doesn’t have sharpness, which is the only thing that affects slicing moves

Should note several moves have flags for being boosted by abilities that none of the users have (in case of Skill Swap), which Secret Sword could fall under if they wanted.

EX: Mega Launcher boosts Origin Pulse, Meteor Mash and Jet Punch are Iron Fist boosted.

 

[Heatranator]

Wait GaG doesn't block Skill Swap as a non-attack move that targets?


Should note several moves have flags for being boosted by abilities that none of the users have (in case of Skill Swap), which Secret Sword could fall under if they wanted.

EX: Mega Launcher boosts Origin Pulse, Meteor Mash and Jet Punch are Iron Fist boosted.

Imagine when metagross returns, they give it iron fist instead of the useless heavy metal. It literally does almost nothing, as it doesn't get heavy slam or heat crash to boost those moves power, and even halved, it's still in the heaviest group for damage such as grass knot or low kick.

 

[Smashburn]

Wait GaG doesn't block Skill Swap as a non-attack move that targets?


Should note several moves have flags for being boosted by abilities that none of the users have (in case of Skill Swap), which Secret Sword could fall under if they wanted.

EX: Mega Launcher boosts Origin Pulse, Meteor Mash and Jet Punch are Iron Fist boosted.

Oh ur right, here I go being crazy again. Tells you how much I care about this meta tho, frankly it's gone to pot but hey that's my opinion.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

frankly it's gone to pot but hey that's my opinion.

i think it hasn't gone to pot, it was always there. the dlc1 meta got to the "playable" level pretty quickly thanks to swift and decisive action on the parts of both the council and the community (and we all did a fantastic job! seriously, everyone, give yourselves a round of applause), but the unfortunate fact of dlc1 is that "good" was never going to be attainable before dlc2 and we all knew that going in. but hey, at least it's almost over, and i'm sure dlc2 will eventually, at some point, be a better and more balanced experience. stay positive!

 

[Return to Zero]

if I remember correctly lokix was in OU at the start of the generation until it dropped.

this pokemon has some wasted pottential.
it is mostly held back because of its speed.
the tinted lens ability makes up for the resistances of its bug type, and its fighting type coverage combined with its dark type can only be resisted by fairies.
it can alson make some good use of tera.

that darn speed needs to be fixed.

The Speed definitely isn't helping, but what's really keeping Lokix down is how high-maintenance it is. Pitiful defenses that leave it OHKOd by neutral hits, the need for both Boots to avoid omnipresent Stealth Rock and Choice Band to keep up with OU's higher damage and defense numbers, the fact that sending it in against anything faster immediately tells the opponent "HEY I'M GOING TO CLICK FIRST IMPRESSION". So on. Most Lokix sets don't actually run Axe Kick because they also want to cram in stuff like U-Turn, Leech Life, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, and Swords Dance. Heavy commitment to some (admittedly really cool) damage numbers and Tinted Lens' brute force coverage with the tradeoff being that if you even slightly fuck up its positioning or prediction then practically anything can knock it out.

 

[Local Dog]

I think I found out what my biggest problem with gen 9 is

Soooo much is surrounding hazard setting, removal, maintenance...

I need a spinner and a defogger and a setter and always consider stealth rock and spikes and heavy duty boots... I can't just build a team with a single spinner and maybe a stealth rock setter and not be forced to run several hdb users and all that shit

So many interactions are just about hazards. It feels like I can't really progress by setting up, attacking or playing defensively, I have to really spent a shitton of time with hazards

I think it strains the game too much for my liking. Mind you I am only 1400s, I may not have any idea what I am talking about, but it's not very fun to play this way

Dengo ban could fix a lot, but there's still too many viable setters and too little removers

 

[Wolf-X]

Terrak and broken are words I would not have expected to be used in the same sentence unless this was BW1 OU. Since Gen 6, Terrak had been a niche pick cause of power creep. I don’t see that changing in Gen 9 unless it gets some absurd buff, hell, the environment is even worse for Terrak. Several base 110+ speed Pokemon that can scare off Terrak. It doesn’t like its competition in Valiant, Zama, and Tusk who also fuck it over in some way. If you wanted a fast offensive Rock, you have Cornerstone Ogerpon. Then you have Ghold who mandates the use of EQ onto its sets. God forbid if its Balloon. Easily rkilled and outdone by alot of newer mons. Terrak was good in BW OU because its damage output and speed was perfect for the tier, only outpaced by a few mons such as Latios and Zam while speed tieing with Keldeo. It even had defensive utility as a Ttar check that was immune to sand. Sadly like its brethren Keldeo and the Lati twins, they have been outdone.

With Terrakion i mean its paradox form, Iron Boulder or whatever its called. I didnt mean traditional terrakion. Taking into consideration other paradoxes, it could easily be broken. Terrakion was one of the strongest RK back when it was introduced, decent speed, great attack and great stabs, with the min maxing going on in Gen 9 and the boost from quark drive it could indeed become VERY strong or even broken

 

[G-Luke]

With Terrakion i mean its paradox form, Iron Boulder or whatever its called. I didnt mean traditional terrakion. Taking into consideration other paradoxes, it could easily be broken. Terrakion was one of the strongest RK back when it was introduced, decent speed, great attack and great stabs, with the min maxing going on in Gen 9 and the boost from quark drive it could indeed become VERY strong or even broken

Bro a Rock Psychic type will not be broken

 

[Wolf-X]

Bro a Rock Psychic type will not be broken

Just because you say so?
Anything could really happen.

 

[Eeveeto]

If there was one Gen in which a Rock Psychic Mon (with less than 700 BST) could be broken, its exactly this one, due to potential to remove that typing. Heck, even Terrakion himself could be an actual viable Mon due to Tera (it already was viable post-BW, but pretty hard to use due to typing and Stone Miss).

 

[Welcome to mars]

With Terrakion i mean its paradox form, Iron Boulder or whatever its called. I didnt mean traditional terrakion. Taking into consideration other paradoxes, it could easily be broken. Terrakion was one of the strongest RK back when it was introduced, decent speed, great attack and great stabs, with the min maxing going on in Gen 9 and the boost from quark drive it could indeed become VERY strong or even broken

the issue is theres a chance that iron crown and iron chungus could have similar stats to iron leaves like the normal swords of justice and thus, they end up sucking, a lot

If there was one Gen in which a Rock Psychic Mon (with less than 700 BST) could be broken, its exactly this one, due to potential to remove that typing. Heck, even Terrakion himself could be an actual viable Mon due to Tera (it already was viable post-BW, but pretty hard to use due to typing and Stone Miss).

terrakion could be viable in uu, but in ou its somehow too slow and rock is a bad defensive typing

 

[Eeveeto]

terrakion could be viable in uu, but in ou its somehow too slow and rock is a bad defensive typing

Bro, almost everything can be viable in the right hands. Bad as rock typing is defensively, offensively is very good, especially combined with Fight. It can also be Tera Ground to complete Edgequake or Tera Fight to break Dondozo, similarly to what Zamazenta is doing with Band.

 

[G-Luke]

If there was one Gen in which a Rock Psychic Mon (with less than 700 BST) could be broken, its exactly this one, due to potential to remove that typing. Heck, even Terrakion himself could be an actual viable Mon due to Tera (it already was viable post-BW, but pretty hard to use due to typing and Stone Miss).

I don't think any of the Swords of Justice will be good imo. Rock Psychic is such a bad typing you HAVE to Tera to be good in OU. And if Iron Leaves is anything to go by, they rarely have a tool good enough to to warrant such a dedicated Tera not.

 

[Eeveeto]

I don't think any of the Swords of Justice will be good imo. Rock Psychic is such a bad typing you HAVE to Tera to be good in OU. And if Iron Leaves is anything to go by, they rarely have a tool good enough to to warrant such a dedicated Tera not.

You are probably right in that it won,t be broken, but there is big difference between Iron Leaves and an hypothetical Rock Psychic Mon. Grass is a very bad offensive typing, resisted by 7 types. Rock on the other hand is very good. Before seeing the actual Stats and movepool, we can,t say anything for sure, but all Paradoxes have good Stats and decent movepools, some have been banned or Suspected because of them. Iron Bundle had the bad defensive typing of Ice (with terrible special bulk too), but that didn,t matter, since it had perfect coverage with just STABs and outsped everything in the game.

 

[1LDK]

I do agree with G-Luke in that it will probably not be good, the thing with being a tera glutton is that YOU NEED to provide an ungodly amount of support and / or power to the team, common examples being Rillaboom, Garganacl and Kingambit, the 3 almost always gets the tera, but that's because rilla has MASSIVE damage, garga walls everything in sight and kingambit with better defensive typing is a monster

I don't think this rock / psychic tera fella is gonna do much impact, and if it is so good you can justify letting him eat the tera, it means you're not using tera on other mons, so at least there's that

 

[Magcargo]

The issue is that the swords of Justices's STAB combos are resisted by the top two Pokemon in the metagame, while Iron Bundle's STAB combo is resisted by nothing. Psychic is just such a bad secondary typing in this metagame. I don't even think Iron Leaves does that bad vs Ghold since Psyblade 2HKOes in ETerrakn, but gambit is a damn near impossible mu to win without Tera. Iron Crown might fair better, but is also competing against Ghold and Gambit. I think the rock psychic one has the most potential because of EQ, but it also needs a really cracked attack stat to compete.

 

[YNM]

How the hell are y'all discussing whether an unreleased mon will be broken or not? For all we know Iron Boulder could have a 145 Base Atk and 120 Base Speed with an 80 BP signature move that has a 40% chance to flinch the opponent.

 

[Blaze_101392]

Yea, I will just say writing a Pokemon off because it has a bad type combination is not the best. TTar has one of the worst types in the game but everything else about it let it be one of the top Pokemon for a very long time despite that. Type goes a long way to determining a Pokemon's viability, but it isn't the only thing so I wouldn't write Boulder off just yet.

Also, that name is WAY too similar to Iron Bundle. My brain was legit just auto filling that in when I saw the name for the first time.

 

[YubelVT]

If there was one Gen in which a Rock Psychic Mon (with less than 700 BST) could be broken, its exactly this one, due to potential to remove that typing. Heck, even Terrakion himself could be an actual viable Mon due to Tera (it already was viable post-BW, but pretty hard to use due to typing and Stone Miss).

I know this doesn't qualify as broken, but Lunatone is a funny anti-meta lead mon for superman teams in ADV. OU will crumble under the might of the terra kion

 

[Eeveeto]

I know this doesn't qualify as broken, but Lunatone is a funny anti-meta lead mon for superman teams in ADV. OU will crumble under the might of the terra kion

Solrock itself in Adv is an Aerodactyl (Rock immune Mon) that can explode with CB, all while checking physical Salamence pretty well. Offensively the typing is not the worst one ever, but defensively is another story.

 

[YubelVT]

Solrock itself in Adv is an Aerodactyl (Rock immune Mon) that can explode with CB, all while checking physical Salamence pretty well. Offensively the typing is not the worst one ever, but defensively is another story.

It's a much better defensive profile in gen 3 than it is nowadays considering that the bug weakness, while relatively bad to have in gen 3, has gotten so much worse with the advent of U-Turn. enough about ADV tho, predictions for the first ban of DLC2 that isn't a pokemon that we've talked to death?

 

[KamenOH]

It's a much better defensive profile in gen 3 than it is nowadays considering that the bug weakness, while relatively bad to have in gen 3, has gotten so much worse with the advent of U-Turn. enough about ADV tho, predictions for the first ban of DLC2 that isn't a pokemon that we've talked to death?

Terapagos, mostly because its probably gonna have some super shitter form that abuses tera to high hell