A radical proposition: Camerupt

[Wyverii]

Thank you for insulting the intelligence of about half of our voters including myself.

I don't think we should really allow this discussion to go much further considering all the hostility. If we find the current process is lacking for the EVO project then we'll discuss that in its own topic when it comes to it but otherwise I don't think that one person should have a chance of turning around the polls. After all what's to stop more people from doing the same?

As for Farfetch'd. Does it have a movepool, does it have a unique item, does it have a role in the lower tiers? If yes then it's not a CAP. Thank you.

 

[gorm]

Because if anyone could at any point just go back and say "No I don't like the result of that vote, lets try again" CaP would simply fail. There are too many things that could be made a little better, or that people realise were wrong at the time. You just have to live with it and move on.

how can you defend the current state of the votes. its a terrible way to start the project an you know it. ill damn well call the pollling results useless if they are useless.

Also you and anyone else who liked Camerupt had PLENTY of time to suggest and support it.

Is an incredably poor argement. You were not there, you didnt care about cap, you didnt have the insight.
Live with it.

id rather do whats right for this project.

How is evolveing the pokemon that the people voted for and supported a "sacrifice" of a project? Maybe its not what YOU like, and maybe if you had posted your arguements sooner or at least expressed support Camerupt could have made it through the polls. But you did not. It did not.

because the people are wrong and they are divided and they do not have exploring the metagame, the MISSION of cap, at heart. they have *preventing farfechd* or *doing farfechtd WHICH IS A CAP PROJECT NOT AN EVO PROJECT, doug himself has said this*.

ps. i contributed alot to fetchd hype lets leave it at that. i didnt create it but i damn well helped spread it.

______

Thank you for insulting the intelligence of about half of our voters including myself.

people were underinformed? its not insulting the intelligence its the fact that you didnt really consider camerupts potential which is really ok. i just dont want to waste a project on an underinformed descision.

I don't think we should really allow this discussion to go much further considering all the hostility.

i agree and im sorry if im *goingoverboard* but no one has given me a good reason not to repoll besides *the porcess* and *the fanboy will win anyways*.

If we find the current process is lacking for the EVO project then we'll discuss that in its own topic when it comes to it but otherwise I don't think that one person should have a chance of turning around the polls. After all what's to stop more people from doing the same?

id rather start the series of projects on the right foot than wait.

As for Farfetch'd. Does it have a movepool, does it have a unique item, does it have a role in the lower tiers? If yes then it's not a CAP. Thank you.[/quote]

 

[eric the espeon]

how can you defend the current state of the votes. its a terrible way to start the project an you know it. ill damn well call the pollling results useless if they are useless.

Because the people voted for it. That is what matters.
CaP is not about "executive" power. The public get to chose the outcome of every stage. And whatever they vote for I will support.

And don't even try to say evolving a weak Pokemon is not an EVO project.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Then make an unofficial poll.

am i allowed because i'd love to?

ete give me one good reason why an untested process is more important than the time put into the project its being applied to

Here's a direct quote from the forum rules:

All construction threads and polls are to be created by the approved Topic Leader. No other threads or polls that pertain to the construction process should be created by other project members.

I'm only leaving this thread open, because it has some process discussion and we are kicking off a completely new style of project in EVO. So, I'm watching this to see how the rest of the community feels about the way we have conducted things so far. But, we will not have any "rogue creation polls" in this forum.

I'm waiting to see if darkie thinks this whole controversy has any merit. Since darkie is the TL, he has sole discretion to create polls and interpret results. If he thinks we should somehow redo the EVO polls, then I would be inclined to allow it. But, I am not overturning the polls as they stand right now. The only reason I would ever step in and alter an ongoing project, is if I felt the process was not executed fairly. The first EVO poll has been just fine, from a process standpoint.

 

[gorm]

Because the people voted for it. That is what matters.
CaP is not about "executive" power. The public get to chose the outcome of every stage. And whatever they vote for I will support.

camperupt is imo a vital enough peice of information that was not availiabe during voting that i kinda declare the voting *partisan* (fetchd vs not fetchd it's a cap project) and not with the best interest of exploring the metagame in mind.

i feel this for the reasons that i posted in the op and also because pretty much everyone has agreed that its the better choice for the project but *we need to keep the process intact*

And don't even try to say evolving a weak Pokemon is not an EVO project.

fetchd has 0 niche to improve on, we would be inventing it's niche. please argue with DJD on this point too.

 

[Accipender]

The only problem I have is that Camerupt was supported in the preplanning stages, but not included in the original vote

 

[gorm]

let me just fucking link to dougs post he said it better than i can

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1581101&postcount=59

 

[Griffin]

What's really the problem if we just give Camerupt a chance in the next EVO? This is a rather short project. Say Farfetch'd wins this time, and Camerupt next time, it hardly matters.

If you'd let Camerupt in now, he could win and Farfetch'd (or Houndoom, might it make a jump in the polls) would then win next time. It's a time difference of what, 3 weeks? The metagame won't go through a huge shift in that short amount of time.

 

[Hyra]

Gorm, EVO was created out of a desire to evolve Farfetch'd (and Banette but Revenankh has lessened desire for that). I do agree with you that Camerupt would be better for the metagame. I voted for Farfetch'd to get it out of the way so that it didn't dominate the beginning phase of every EVO project.

However, as much as you want to atone for your past actions, allowing midprocess revision will hurt more than this one EVO project by allowing a precedent for every close poll to be disputed. Yes, I would rather sacrifice this one EVO project to be mediocre as you call it, then to destroy the foundation of both the EVO and the CAP projects. We only revised our Syclant and Revenankh after a few months. Immediate revision is bad, because then none of our designs will ever a a concrete feel that makes them Pokemon.

Really, it boils down to that allowing you to make this one EVO project better makes the entire CAP project as a whole worse.

 

[eric the espeon]

camperupt is imo a vital enough peice of information that was not availiabe during voting that i kinda declare the voting *partisan* (fetchd vs not fetchd it's a cap project) and not with the best interest of exploring the metagame in mind.

How was it not available? Someone proposed it, and there was almost no support. So it did not make it to the poll. Simple and fair.

fetchd has 0 niche to improve on, we would be inventing it's niche. please argue with DJD on this point too.

Its still evolving a Pokemon. Therefore it is EVO.

 

[zfs]

Gorm, EVO was created out of a desire to evolve Farfetch'd (and Banette but Revenankh has lessened desire for that). I do agree with you that Camerupt would be better for the metagame. I voted for Farfetch'd to get it out of the way so that it didn't dominate the beginning phase of every EVO project.

This just seems like a bad justification. I mean, you're pretty much saying that you aren't picking Farfetch'd because he is shitty and an evo could become viable in the OU meta, but simply because he's an old favorite from the RBY days. Because really, there's a whole truckload of cool pokemon that are useless in OU but could become viable with an evo. Where are the Delibird and Corsola evos, the Ariados and Spinda evos, the Dunsparce evo, the Ledian evo, and so on. As far as actually improving the metagame, Camerupt seems to be a better and more logical choice. But if the process is set in stone, then waiting a month isn't the worst thing in the world, is it?

 

[gorm]

Gorm, EVO was created out of a desire to evolve Farfetch'd (and Banette but Revenankh has lessened desire for that).

this is *fanboyism* and doesnt ahve the metagame in its best interest ,just *bestowing power upon a weakling*

I do agree with you that Camerupt would be better for the metagame.

then why arent we makign the projcet around it

I voted for Farfetch'd to get it out of the way so that it didn't dominate the beginning phase of every EVO project.[/qoute] why not do fetched wehn were better at doing evos? like after this?

However, as much as you want to atone for your past actions, allowing midprocess revision will hurt more than this one EVO project by allowing a precedent for every close poll to be disputed.

not every poll. and underinformed 50/50 fanboys vs anti fanboys poll

Yes, I would rather sacrifice this one EVO project to be mediocre as you call it, then to destroy the foundation of both the EVO and the CAP projects.

thats stupid sorry.

We only revised our Syclant and Revenankh after a few months. Immediate revision is bad, because then none of our designs will ever a a concrete feel that makes them Pokemon.

what do you mean immediate revision. we havent started anything.

Really, it boils down to that allowing you to make this one EVO project better makes the entire CAP project as a whole worse.

easier to start with THEN harder will always preduce better results. do camerupt first and THEN fetchd.



edit:

thank you zfs out of nowhere.

But if the process is set in stone, then waiting a month isn't the worst thing in the world, is it?

id really rather start things right and get a solid foundation.

 

[jumpluff]

Its still evolving a Pokemon. Therefore it is EVO.

Only ostensibly, though.

 

[Hyra]

This just seems like a bad justification. I mean, you're pretty much saying that you aren't picking Farfetch'd because he is shitty and an evo could become viable in the OU meta, but simply because he's an old favorite from the RBY days. Because really, there's a whole truckload of cool pokemon that are useless in OU but could become viable with an evo. Where are the Delibird and Corsola evos, the Ariados and Spinda evos, the Dunsparce evo, the Ledian evo, and so on. As far as actually improving the metagame, Camerupt seems to be a better and more logical choice. But if the process is set in stone, then waiting a month isn't the worst thing in the world, is it?

I know its not that good of a reason.But EVO was created to keep this stuff out of CAP. Anything we do through EVO can obivously be done through CAP, the only point of EVO is to link it back to an old Pokemon FOR FLAVOR REASONS. EVO exists to add flavor to our designs but giving them a backstory.

If someone wants to argue that making a Pokemon as an EVO instead of as a standalone CAP has any competitive effect on the Pokemon please do so. I remember EVO being created to keep the fanboyism associated with evolutions out of CAP and not for competitive reasons. I appreciate the fact that you guys are trying to focus on competitiveness, but that's not worth opening the can of worms associated with instant revision.


Edit:

Gorm, what don't you get that allowing this allows a precedent to dispute every single close poll. You can't objectively sate who is a fanboy and who isn't. Just looking at the last CAP, we had three close polls (at least):

STAT Spread - Those who vote for Goodbar/GT are fanboys, I want the poll redone.
Art - Those who voted for yourDeadGrandad are fanboys, I want the poll redone.
Ability - Those who voted for Levitate are fanboys, I want the poll redone.

Allowing this allows those by precedent. Those are the core of CAP 5. If we revise those, CAP 5 completely changes. I also don't see why you can't just work with whatever wins to make it competitively aimed, instead of just a random fanboy project. Just because an option has potential to be fanboyish doesn't mean it will be.

 

[gorm]

the only point of EVO is to link it back to an old Pokemon FOR FLAVOR REASONS

thats stupid and EVO doesnt deserve a separate project if its for flavour reasons. evo should exist because there is a niche to be filled and a pokemon who almost fills it.

edit thank you rb golbat.

 

[RBG]

Personally, I think that not enough time was spend choosing the pokemon that should be evolved. It would have been nice if maybe people made threads like this to discuss the pokemon. Evolving a pokemon involves a lot more care than creating a pokemon, so there should have been more time given to disciussing the pokemon that we evolve.

 

[Hyra]

thats stupid and EVO doesnt deserve a separate project if its for flavour reasons. evo should exist because there is a niche to be filled and a pokemon who almost fills it.

Why can't we just create a Ground/Fire with whatever stats you want in the next CAP project then? Sure, it replaces Camerupt but evolving Camerupt replaces Camerupt. The only distinction between the results of a CAP for a Ground/Fire and an EVO for Camerupt is that one evolved from Camerupt and one didn't.

 

[jumpluff]

Personally, I think that not enough time was spend choosing the pokemon that should be evolved. It would have been nice if maybe people made threads like this to discuss the pokemon. Evolving a pokemon involves a lot more care than creating a pokemon, so there should have been more time given to disciussing the pokemon that we evolve.

I agree. Perhaps we can learn that we rushed this and go back and improve that. It isn't bad that we made mistakes because we learn from them.

 

[gorm]

Why can't we just create a Ground/Fire with whatever stats you want in the next CAP project then? Sure, it replaces Camerupt but evolving Camerupt replaces Camerupt. The only distinction between the results of a CAP for a Ground/Fire and an EVO for Camerupt is that one evolved from Camerupt and one didn't.

camperupt was pretty much made for this project, this niche fits evo alot better than cap.

you want to do an evo project in cap and a cap project in evo pretty much, thats not very effecient especially fmora process standpoint.. id rather make up a fly/fight poke and evolve camerupt.

fetchd is kinda ugly too xD

 

[Hyra]

camperupt was pretty much made for this project, this niche fits evo alot better than cap.

you want to do an evo project in cap and a cap project in evo pretty much, thats not very effecient especially fmora process standpoint.. id rather make up a fly/fight poke and evolve camerupt.

fetchd is kinda ugly too xD

Well... I pretty much don't see that much point to evolving anyways, go back and look at the first polls of CAP 2 to see my stance on that. I appreciate the EVO project as a way to keep the fanboy project associated with some concepts out of the CAP project. Revenankh was almost a Banette evo, but it was voted against (and then we ended up making a Banette evo that didn't evolve from Banette).

Personally, I see CAP and EVO as the same thing except EVO has previous flavor (niche is sort of flavor, how you use a Pokemon affects your opinion of it) and CAP doesn't. There's really no other distinction between the two.

 

[Chileno4Live]

this is *fanboyism* and doesnt ahve the metagame in its best interest ,just *bestowing power upon a weakling*

Houndoom is also a weakling and you guys want to make it stronger aswell, so this is also *powering up a weakling.

I agree with some people here that Camperupt is an excellent choice for this project, only it hasn't been mentioned that much and if i've seen it, i would choose for it.

Farfetch'd Evo won't be a Togekiss clone or a Staraptor clone. It can be a BPer if it'll be bulky flier. Houndoom is already BL, it's to weak for OU and you want to power it up, then you might aswell powering up another BLer like Feraligatr, which is completly inferior to Gyarados. This is the same as Heatran and Houndoom. I find it more interesting to powering up a weakling rather than powering up a decent pokemon. It's alot more interesting to see a weak pokemon become a fairly good BPer or any other roll. If you don't agree, then you don't. Just this thread isn't fair, just because you don't agree you have to make a whole discussion thread for it, jsut because you don't agree.

Just leave it. Camerupt can be a really good option in the next project. If you can't wait then to bad. I just felt like writing this because it's really annoyin on how you want this to go your way.

 

[Voyeur]

When something is first starting out, even after time that is considered solid discussion sessions before it's release (i.e. a game going from pre-beta to beta) there is still a lot of need and time for improvement in the jump to beta, and things are going to be expected to not work out entirely.

Reversing the process just a tad in order to ensure a more promising and successful debut of the project in question is nothing short of a staple. So, despite past events, I think nothing is wrong with what Gorm here is trying to establish.

 

[Caelum]

Personally, I think that not enough time was spend choosing the pokemon that should be evolved. It would have been nice if maybe people made threads like this to discuss the pokemon. Evolving a pokemon involves a lot more care than creating a pokemon, so there should have been more time given to disciussing the pokemon that we evolve.

I inclined to agree with RB Golbat. Even if Camerupt isn't going to be done right now (although it should be!), this thread has shown what type of discussion should be going on a particular evolution. Obviously, you don't want 300 threads talking about possible EVOs, but a preliminary poll that narrows it down to 10-15 Pokemon and then each have there own discussion thread could be useful. It would help to support the process and hopefully come to the most intelligent final answer.

I do believe the overall health of the metagame should always be considered in CAP though and some of you seem to be forgetting that and a modified Camerupt would be a useful addition to the metagame.

 

[gorm]

Well... I pretty much don't see that much point to evolving anyways, go back and look at the first polls of CAP 2 to see my stance on that. I appreciate the EVO project as a way to keep the fanboy project associated with some concepts out of the CAP project. Revenankh was almost a Banette evo, but it was voted against (and then we ended up making a Banette evo that didn't evolve from Banette).

Personally, I see CAP and EVO as the same thing except EVO has previous flavor (niche is sort of flavor, how you use a Pokemon affects your opinion of it) and CAP doesn't. There's really no other distinction between the two.

an evo project is gonna have a clearer framework a priori. we arent making gayradoses here we are building on somethin established (namely camerupt's typing/bsd) and since we know what were working towards looks like we can afford to be more precise.

cap have been pretty much building a niche around an invented pokemon which is a pretty tough thing to do and i can't say has always yeilded great results at least as far as the metagame is concerned. it creates new predators (syclant/revenankh) and counters (pyroak to an extent) that kind of are introduced into a metagame that doesnt know what to do with them

i know what to do with camerupt, we all do. make it bulkier, add some movepool, maybe a new ability, nothing big but it has to be done right.

lets do this guys.

thank you cartoons ^__^ you are a fucking awesome user

 

[Cartoons!]

I voted Houndoom in the hopes of stopping a Farfetch'd win. I hadn't consciously acknowledged the motivation driving this decision until I had read this thread. I wish I'd been more vocal in my support of Camerupt earlier, but I wasn't, so I settled for choice number four. Thanks for the insight.

Americans: Ron Paul!