Champion Leon
Banned deucer.
You seem frustrated, lets review your points:Rant, Rant, anger, Rant... Done
1. "There is something called having a mon on the field before the Imposter is. There is another thing called Imposter hard switching in on you. Which leads to this"
No one questions how Imposter comes in or how it works out during a match, it seems like pointing out common sense feels empowering for you, but it just looks like you hope its something people don't already know, not impressive; sorry that your attempt to sound condescending backfired...
My point was, you cannot get Imposterproof, if you rely on 1/4 chance to have the right move selected before Choice Band locking yourself in. Relying on their Imposter to switch into Hoopa-U has to happen on the first turn you even use U-Turn, as you would switch out if it is anything else, racking up hazard damage and giving away to the foe your only move that can 1HKO Imposter... again, not really reliable enough.
2. "Finally, there is a thing called having an improof and letting that take care of an Imposter that somehow got in safely (such as from a U-turn miss)."
I find it interesting that you mention this when you previously mentioned how hard it is to Improof this set in your last post... what do you Imposterproof this set with, if you go into detail about how hard it is to Improof your own set? Obviously Imposter doesn't use Choice Band, but it can switch moves if it has Eviolite, and can outspeed most Pokemon if it has Choice Scarf, so if its so simple, what would you use?
3. "Now lets see prevalent mons that get OHKOed by Hustle which aren't by Mega Launcher. Apart from Imposter which we covered above."
So basically only 2 Fairy-types, which are 2HKOed, especially as Audino-Mega will go after Hoopa-Unbound, preventing them from being able to switch-in and heal. Zygarde is 1HKOed by Ice Beam / Frost Breathe which is why I included it in my 4th slot for my original set post:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 648-764 (101.8 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 588-696 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
4. "So you are almost 13 times more likely to face against RegenVest Kyogre + Yveltal than FC trio. "
There are other mons like Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega in the Setpedia, but the point is if the Fairy-types you mentioned are still 2HKOed by Origin Pulse, this tells me that the Band and Specs sets basically just trade 1 and 2HKOs for targets. It doesn't tell me that Hustle is better.
Also, many people reduce the overall average damage, when considering which attacks to use, by the accuracy of the moves... remember, Ice Hammer is 90% accuracy, but due to Hustle it loses 20% accuracy, making it 90% x 0.8 = 72% accuracy, which is lower than Lovely Kiss. So you actually only have a 72% chance to 1HKO Zygarde with Hustle Ice Hammer, while Specs has a 100% chance with Ice Beam. Which do you think is more reliable?
Plus your speed is lowered... so unless you rely on the first turn Hoopa-U is out and you assume Zygarde is going to switch in on Ice Hammer, before you will have to re-switch back in, you risk lowering your Speed on another target and then you wont be guaranteed to go first, meaning they might hit you with something like U-turn and escape, while racking up super effective damage; and since you mentioned a Lonely nature:
252 Atk Zygarde-Complete U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 308-364 (84.6 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The Specs set always hits with its Ice move, and doesn't leave itself slower than its intended target.
5. "In addition, RegenVest has no trouble recovering off the ~30% that you do whereas FC mons need to use a turn to do so. "
Technically, Fur Coat mons and Regenvest mons both require a turn to heal, as RegenVesters have to switch out, which is actually worse, because if they have to switch back into entry hazards, and are limited to 30% recovery, whereas Fur Coat Mons can heal 56.25% if they pack Leftovers + Recovery, effectively stalling out more than RegenVest, with literally no drawbacks on using non-attacking moves... plus, whatever RegenVesters switch into also take hazard damage, so you hurt a teammate automatically. Is the 30% damage recovered going to matter if you end up hurting your teammate from hazards, and likely take at least 30% yourself from the attack + entry hazards?
6. "Idt one uses Hoopa-U to threaten out steel types, you typically leave that for stuff like MMX and PDon and I doubt the opponent will even switch Steel types in in the first place. Hustle's coverage moves deal with all mons that it doesn't 2HKO bar Mega Gyarados which U-turn does a ton and your teammate comes in to clean that up. Mega Launcher, on the other hand, doesn't."
First of all, several Steels are part Psychic/Ghost (Metagross, Dusk-Mane, Solgaleo, Aegislash), so if Hoopa's job isn't to threaten out Ghosts/Psychics, then it's not being utilized for its STAB, especially considering how Steel is resistant to all of the coverage moves you mentioned, so it's nice to know for the non-Ghosts/Psychic Steel-types, Aura Sphere poses a threat to anything not named Celesteela, while Dark Pulse 2HKOs Celesteela.
If you are saying that all of its coverage moves can 2HKO whatever Hyperspace Fury cannot, why don't you count how Specs' coverage moves can also 2HKO whatever Dark Pulse cannot?
Even the examples you gave me on what survives a 1HKO from Origin Pulse is still a 2HKO.
The only Pokemon I can think of that is a 3HKO from Mega Launcher but just a 2HKO from Hustle is Fur Coat Chansey, and that is because of how skewed its Defense vs Special Defense is, with Sunsteel Strike bypassing Fur Coat.
7. "Can't threaten with U-turn if you are either dead or about to because you just took >50%."
Huh? Since when are we always assuming Imposter was hit for over 50%? Maybe Imposter was slow pivoted in vs Hoopa-U and now threatens it with U-Turn.
8. "Finally, if you are using Mega Launcher, why aren't you just using a different special breaker like SF MMY (better coverage, more power through wide super effective coverage, can 2HKO imp after chip, can switch moves, bluff other sets, lacks switch-ins) or Specs Ray (Much more power, coverage kills most switch-ins, bluff other sets, does a ton to imposter)."
Well, it depends what you want coverage for... Aura Sphere and Secret Sword provide fighting coverage and are not boosted by Sheer Force, so you need Mega Launcher to boost their power, unless you rely on Focus Blast, and can serve as an alternative to Fire moves and Ground moves when hitting Steels that may have Flash Fire, or that may have a secondary typing that neutralizes the super effectiveness, such as Ferrothorn, or grants immunity like Celesteela. Some carry Volt Absorb, so Bolt Strike isn't a guarantee. Plus Fighting offers better coverage vs Tyranitar-Mega, Arceus, etc.
Dark Pulse does more damage to Ghosts/Psychics than anything boosted by Sheer Force, first because of STAB from Hoopa-U, and because Sheer Force doesn't boost any Special Ghost or Dark moves besides Shadow Ball and Night Daze at 30% power, but not 50% power.
As we saw in your Calcs. Dark Pulse is stronger for neutral coverage than MMY's Psychic, also due to the Item and Ability difference. So if you need to hit something neutrally, Dark Pulse will hit for more.
Lastly, Psychic, Fighting, and Dark cover much of the metagame pretty well, and the 4th move can be used for the Dragons that are common enough. MMY Sheer Force doesn't cover everything, as it really just depends on the moves it uses and some skip the move Psychic altogether. It's hard to compare when you don't specify the specific 4 moves on SF MMY you want to discuss.
No one questions how Imposter comes in or how it works out during a match, it seems like pointing out common sense feels empowering for you, but it just looks like you hope its something people don't already know, not impressive; sorry that your attempt to sound condescending backfired...
My point was, you cannot get Imposterproof, if you rely on 1/4 chance to have the right move selected before Choice Band locking yourself in. Relying on their Imposter to switch into Hoopa-U has to happen on the first turn you even use U-Turn, as you would switch out if it is anything else, racking up hazard damage and giving away to the foe your only move that can 1HKO Imposter... again, not really reliable enough.
2. "Finally, there is a thing called having an improof and letting that take care of an Imposter that somehow got in safely (such as from a U-turn miss)."
I find it interesting that you mention this when you previously mentioned how hard it is to Improof this set in your last post... what do you Imposterproof this set with, if you go into detail about how hard it is to Improof your own set? Obviously Imposter doesn't use Choice Band, but it can switch moves if it has Eviolite, and can outspeed most Pokemon if it has Choice Scarf, so if its so simple, what would you use?
3. "Now lets see prevalent mons that get OHKOed by Hustle which aren't by Mega Launcher. Apart from Imposter which we covered above."
So basically only 2 Fairy-types, which are 2HKOed, especially as Audino-Mega will go after Hoopa-Unbound, preventing them from being able to switch-in and heal. Zygarde is 1HKOed by Ice Beam / Frost Breathe which is why I included it in my 4th slot for my original set post:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 648-764 (101.8 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete on a critical hit: 588-696 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
4. "So you are almost 13 times more likely to face against RegenVest Kyogre + Yveltal than FC trio. "
There are other mons like Fur Coat Gyarados-Mega in the Setpedia, but the point is if the Fairy-types you mentioned are still 2HKOed by Origin Pulse, this tells me that the Band and Specs sets basically just trade 1 and 2HKOs for targets. It doesn't tell me that Hustle is better.
Also, many people reduce the overall average damage, when considering which attacks to use, by the accuracy of the moves... remember, Ice Hammer is 90% accuracy, but due to Hustle it loses 20% accuracy, making it 90% x 0.8 = 72% accuracy, which is lower than Lovely Kiss. So you actually only have a 72% chance to 1HKO Zygarde with Hustle Ice Hammer, while Specs has a 100% chance with Ice Beam. Which do you think is more reliable?
Plus your speed is lowered... so unless you rely on the first turn Hoopa-U is out and you assume Zygarde is going to switch in on Ice Hammer, before you will have to re-switch back in, you risk lowering your Speed on another target and then you wont be guaranteed to go first, meaning they might hit you with something like U-turn and escape, while racking up super effective damage; and since you mentioned a Lonely nature:
252 Atk Zygarde-Complete U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Hoopa-Unbound: 308-364 (84.6 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The Specs set always hits with its Ice move, and doesn't leave itself slower than its intended target.
5. "In addition, RegenVest has no trouble recovering off the ~30% that you do whereas FC mons need to use a turn to do so. "
Technically, Fur Coat mons and Regenvest mons both require a turn to heal, as RegenVesters have to switch out, which is actually worse, because if they have to switch back into entry hazards, and are limited to 30% recovery, whereas Fur Coat Mons can heal 56.25% if they pack Leftovers + Recovery, effectively stalling out more than RegenVest, with literally no drawbacks on using non-attacking moves... plus, whatever RegenVesters switch into also take hazard damage, so you hurt a teammate automatically. Is the 30% damage recovered going to matter if you end up hurting your teammate from hazards, and likely take at least 30% yourself from the attack + entry hazards?
6. "Idt one uses Hoopa-U to threaten out steel types, you typically leave that for stuff like MMX and PDon and I doubt the opponent will even switch Steel types in in the first place. Hustle's coverage moves deal with all mons that it doesn't 2HKO bar Mega Gyarados which U-turn does a ton and your teammate comes in to clean that up. Mega Launcher, on the other hand, doesn't."
First of all, several Steels are part Psychic/Ghost (Metagross, Dusk-Mane, Solgaleo, Aegislash), so if Hoopa's job isn't to threaten out Ghosts/Psychics, then it's not being utilized for its STAB, especially considering how Steel is resistant to all of the coverage moves you mentioned, so it's nice to know for the non-Ghosts/Psychic Steel-types, Aura Sphere poses a threat to anything not named Celesteela, while Dark Pulse 2HKOs Celesteela.
If you are saying that all of its coverage moves can 2HKO whatever Hyperspace Fury cannot, why don't you count how Specs' coverage moves can also 2HKO whatever Dark Pulse cannot?
Even the examples you gave me on what survives a 1HKO from Origin Pulse is still a 2HKO.
The only Pokemon I can think of that is a 3HKO from Mega Launcher but just a 2HKO from Hustle is Fur Coat Chansey, and that is because of how skewed its Defense vs Special Defense is, with Sunsteel Strike bypassing Fur Coat.
7. "Can't threaten with U-turn if you are either dead or about to because you just took >50%."
Huh? Since when are we always assuming Imposter was hit for over 50%? Maybe Imposter was slow pivoted in vs Hoopa-U and now threatens it with U-Turn.
8. "Finally, if you are using Mega Launcher, why aren't you just using a different special breaker like SF MMY (better coverage, more power through wide super effective coverage, can 2HKO imp after chip, can switch moves, bluff other sets, lacks switch-ins) or Specs Ray (Much more power, coverage kills most switch-ins, bluff other sets, does a ton to imposter)."
Well, it depends what you want coverage for... Aura Sphere and Secret Sword provide fighting coverage and are not boosted by Sheer Force, so you need Mega Launcher to boost their power, unless you rely on Focus Blast, and can serve as an alternative to Fire moves and Ground moves when hitting Steels that may have Flash Fire, or that may have a secondary typing that neutralizes the super effectiveness, such as Ferrothorn, or grants immunity like Celesteela. Some carry Volt Absorb, so Bolt Strike isn't a guarantee. Plus Fighting offers better coverage vs Tyranitar-Mega, Arceus, etc.
Dark Pulse does more damage to Ghosts/Psychics than anything boosted by Sheer Force, first because of STAB from Hoopa-U, and because Sheer Force doesn't boost any Special Ghost or Dark moves besides Shadow Ball and Night Daze at 30% power, but not 50% power.
As we saw in your Calcs. Dark Pulse is stronger for neutral coverage than MMY's Psychic, also due to the Item and Ability difference. So if you need to hit something neutrally, Dark Pulse will hit for more.
Lastly, Psychic, Fighting, and Dark cover much of the metagame pretty well, and the 4th move can be used for the Dragons that are common enough. MMY Sheer Force doesn't cover everything, as it really just depends on the moves it uses and some skip the move Psychic altogether. It's hard to compare when you don't specify the specific 4 moves on SF MMY you want to discuss.
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