I think that Moltres is being pretty overhyped in this thread. It's a neat Mimikyu check in the same way that Pyroar is, but that's really about all it does. Looking at the calcs, it can beat something like Fini theoretically assuming that there are no rocks up and your opponent opts not to switch into common Pokémon like P2 or Heatran that really don't care about Moltres at all. So yeah I think Moltres can put in some work if your opponent doesn't have SR up (something that they will certainly go for if they see a Moltres on your team), or if your opponent is missing Top 20 in usage Pokémon like Sash/Scarf Offensive Lando-T, the omnipresent Greninja, Tapu Koko, bulkier M-Mence (yeah Moltres doesn't 1v1 that reliably), M-Gyarados, Heatran, P2, or even something like bulkier Lele. Heck, even mixed bulk Hippo can get up rocks on z-Moltres and phaze it out lol.
While a 4x SR weakness isn't necessarily a crippling problem (see Zard usage), it is an issue on something that doesn't have the sheer power and utility of Zard Y or Zard X. I think Moltres' SR weakness combined with its inability to really stop more than a small handful of common 'mons and getting obliterated by 3 of the top 10 Pokémon (possibly more depending on Rock Tomb Metagross, SpDef Hippo, SpDef Mega Mence, etc.) keep it from really being viable in the current meta. This is why we voted against ranking Moltres in the latest VR.
On a personal note, I find a lot of the arguments for Moltres being some sort of secret tour/Japanese sleeper pick to be pretty eh. In the tour replay that was shared, Moltres really didn't do a whole lot and the game was only won because of a non-SD M-Scizor (lol) and Mega Venu being fat. I also looked at Moltres usage stats and Nouthuca teams from recent seasons. Moltres usage has been steady from seasons 12-15 and consistently ranks around #122 or so each season. It also only shows up in 3 Nouthuca blogs from seasons 12-14, and all 3 of those teams look like 5 broken 'mons that would be fine on their own and a Moltres to fill some niche role. So I don't really buy the argument that Moltres is a 'mon that sees usage by elite players, sorry.
I find this logic to be a bit faulty. It is basically saying X is good so long as they do not switch into Y and in which case Y is useless. Does Volcarona become useless because they switch into heatran? Does Kommo-o suddenly become useless because they have a fairy type? I'm not sure that this is a good way of looking at the game, since you can plan macro game plans that revolve around chip or exploiting pokemon are typically checks. That afterall is the point of many strong compositions such as Lele Zard. You can also mention all of those pokemon you put above for Charizard Y, yet Charizard Y is perceived as A+ and fantastic in the current metagame and takes up a mega slot.
Moltres only needs three moves really, Hurricane, Burn Up and Flame Charge (and tbh you don't need flame charge), which means there is a lot of room for customisation. Moltres can far easier run HP Ground as a coverage move than Volcarona (70% Hidden Power usage in S15) which bops heatran. Mixed bulk hippo can get rocks up on Moltres and phase it out? Burn up into z-hurricane is always a 2hko on any variant of hippo without proccing 50% berry, sitrus berry unless you are max hp max spdef with a boosting nature will mean you won't have enough hp. It is sweeping statements like this without doing the neccessary research that hurt Moltres. Pretty much of the pokemon you mentioned, only porygon2 and heatran you would ever likely switch into Moltres without making some significant prediction and these are metagame walls that switch into a lot of things which is why you have specific ways to deal with them on your team.
I wasn't using tour evidence specifically to show the power of Moltres because I don't think there is enough sample size there. It was more an interesting aside to show the mechanics of Burn Up to a wider audience. I could have easily mentioned that I've gotten to top 50 on the showdown ladder with a Moltres team, though I could say the same with that Mega Steelix and Mantine team which I got to 1600 with so I don't see it necessarily as an argument of their viability though I think both could be in that region too. I understand you are thinking, well there's only been three top Moltres teams in the last three seasons therefore it shouldn't be C, yet a lot of Mons currently in C are like that. Lets use the pokemon that Cant Say used as an example (Eevee, Mega Aerodactyl, Vivillon and Mega Gardevoir). In the same time frame, there is 1 mega aero team, 3 mega gardevoir teams, no Eevee teams and 10 vivillon teams because Vivillon as I have mentioned before is in no way a C mon. Moltres fits perfectly within that category. Similar can be said for usage stats, Moltres is used more than Shuckle, Wobuffett, Blacephalon, Buzzwole, Golisopod and Rhyperior who are all ranked. I guess you can argue the category is too broad, but my job isn't to set the boundaries of the category, only to debate pokemon that could fit in the box.
Overall, I think a lot of people arguing against Moltres are mistaking something. I'm not out here arguing that Moltres is as good as Charizard Y or Volcarona, it isn't. Yet a lot of people seem to be rebutting as if 1 Trick Phony and myself are trying to argue that. C Tier is for pokemon that are held back by flaws but who have a niche in the tier, basically having Moltres to fill some niche role. That's about it really.
Illustrate me, please.
50% chance (two hits) of leaving a (insert dangerous pokemon here) to come in and start demolishing things it far too high. This move IS a Focus Blast-level trash move.
Neither does Moltres with SR up. High Jump Kick deals 40% on it's own and Mimykiu gets an easy kill by Shadow Claw+Shadow Sneak, even with investment. Not to mention Z-Hurricane is a one-time-move that can be easily baited due to Moltres being essentially forced to use it immediately, and Tyranitar and Heatran are increasingly common.
It was mentioned only on Dragonite for a reason. You'd better use Pelliper for Tornadus (and no, it can't apply to Moltres, you loose your precious fire move that is your only available coverage option).
Not by good players. Good players either run him with defensive investment and Roost or run Salamence instead. Also, Moltres gets KOed by basically every relevant Water, Electric and Rock attack of every offensive pokemon you care to name.
Dragon Dance on the switch=free speed boost without loosing attack. Not a big downside if you ask me.
Dragonite also has Roost, has much better defensive typing and bulk, and much more reliable ways to threaten the opponent and get free turns.
I have the same question for you, mate.
Again, if you had read my post above, you would understand why hurricane being inaccurate is, whilst annoying, not as huge a problem as you believe it to be. Due to the way that z-moves work being 100% accurate, Moltres is always guaranteed to get a strong hit off that. There are many examples of worse moves being used in this regard, just look at z-hyper beam volcarona or z-giga impact kartana. Unlike those moves, you can actually justify firing off a hurricane most of the time outside of a one time nuke and it comes with a juicy confuse chance. Essentially, you are arguing against Hurricane because of it's accuracy by comparing it to Focus Blast, which whilst it has it's flaws is a move used regularly by Lele, Gengar, Thundurus and Lucario to give four common pokemon, with or without the z-move.
Stealth Rock is a momentum draining move and you can play around to the point where you either don't let your opponent get up rocks or you sacrifice so much getting them up that it isn't worth it. A lot of Charizard/Volcarona teams work that way or are you arguing that these mons are not good because of their weakness. I go over Heatran specifically and the general idea of just because X is a check does not mean that Y is bad. I guess I was making that argument a few months ago with Nihilego which has tons of checks, but that was moving an A- pokemon down. Again, we are talking about C tier here.
I'm not sure Moltres Rain has ever been explored, 100% accurate hurricanes with Z-solar beam to bait in water types that wall swampert's rain boosted waterfall and eliminate them actually sounds kinda cool though, hidden power ice/ground, momentum with u-turn into a rain sweeper. A mon that beats Ferrothorn and Kartana as well even through the rain. You've given me an idea I'll have to test out one day. Same with the idea of a Moltres having type weaknesses (which it can even mitigate thanks to burn up and roost), I've covered this all before.
Offensive Dragonite not used by good players? The vast majority of Dragonite spreads statistically are either max attack or max special attack often with a boosting nature. This is echoed on all levels of play, including Nouthuca teams where 6/7 of the top dragonite teams in the last three seasons use one or the other. Not to say a defensive Dragonite doesn't exist, but it's less common. 42% of Dragonite spreads alone are Max attack/special attack Max speed according to
https://boe2.github.io/bsus.html on high level showdown with another 36% of spreads also being max attack/special attack with just some hp investment over speed which leaves room for 28% defensive spreads yet half of these are classed as other which could be different offensive spreads.
To be honest, Moltres's detractors argue more for Moltres than I ever could. The more I research into the options and potential this majestic bird has, the more I believe it deserves the place it rightfully deserves in our metagame. It has lost the beauty contest to Articuno, been overlooked in favour of Zapdos competitively but it is fighting back. First in USUM OU where it has finally been placed on the C rank where it belongs and now here in BSS.