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CAP 10 CAP 10 - Main Typing Poll
- Thread starter Umbreon Dan
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I'll reiterate what I said in the type discussion, as I still think it's valuable information that a lot of people may have missed. Also, I'll try to improve and better organize my thoughts:
Something many people seem to be forgetting is that this Pokemon is supposed to be customizable to counter specific threats. Barring an Arceus-like trait, typing is in no way customizable. Therefore, we should be looking for a typing that will have the least impact on CAP10's ability to counter, while making it able to be an effective utility counter. This is why the Fighting type is the best type.
Fighting has very few weaknesses and resistances, most of which do not see much use anyway. However, it has two key resistances that contribute to its use as a utility counter as a whole: stealth rock resistance and pursuit resistance. Stealth Rock resistance lets it switch around with a bit more safely, while pursuit resistance prevents it from being locked in by something it's not meant to counter.
A glaring flaw in the Fighting type for a utility counter is it's powerful Fighting stab. However, being a fighting type does not guarantee a powerful fighting stab move, and if the fighting stab proves to be an issue, it can easily be alleviated in the movepool creation process.
Unfortunately, with Fighting trailing in the polls, I may find myself forced to vote for Electric, as I'd much, much rather see this CAP end up being Electric type than Water type. However, in addition to Fighting's flaw of a powerful base stab, Electric also carries with it a deadly ground weakness. Most people supporting Electric are likely thinking of slapping Levitate on CAP10 and not giving the ability another thought, but I believe this concept allows for much more creativity than that. As a side note, Electric also lacks the other minor advantages of stealth rock resistance and pursuit resistance. Also, it is resistant to itself, a prominent offensive type, which is something we don't want.
Also, Steel is obviously the worst choice. With far too many resistances and some glaring weaknesses, Steel is doing far too much for CAP10 that cannot be customized away. The steel typing goes completely against the idea of a heavily customizable utility counter, and I can't wrap my head around why it's even being considered.
Something many people seem to be forgetting is that this Pokemon is supposed to be customizable to counter specific threats. Barring an Arceus-like trait, typing is in no way customizable. Therefore, we should be looking for a typing that will have the least impact on CAP10's ability to counter, while making it able to be an effective utility counter. This is why the Fighting type is the best type.
Fighting has very few weaknesses and resistances, most of which do not see much use anyway. However, it has two key resistances that contribute to its use as a utility counter as a whole: stealth rock resistance and pursuit resistance. Stealth Rock resistance lets it switch around with a bit more safely, while pursuit resistance prevents it from being locked in by something it's not meant to counter.
A glaring flaw in the Fighting type for a utility counter is it's powerful Fighting stab. However, being a fighting type does not guarantee a powerful fighting stab move, and if the fighting stab proves to be an issue, it can easily be alleviated in the movepool creation process.
Unfortunately, with Fighting trailing in the polls, I may find myself forced to vote for Electric, as I'd much, much rather see this CAP end up being Electric type than Water type. However, in addition to Fighting's flaw of a powerful base stab, Electric also carries with it a deadly ground weakness. Most people supporting Electric are likely thinking of slapping Levitate on CAP10 and not giving the ability another thought, but I believe this concept allows for much more creativity than that. As a side note, Electric also lacks the other minor advantages of stealth rock resistance and pursuit resistance. Also, it is resistant to itself, a prominent offensive type, which is something we don't want.
Also, Steel is obviously the worst choice. With far too many resistances and some glaring weaknesses, Steel is doing far too much for CAP10 that cannot be customized away. The steel typing goes completely against the idea of a heavily customizable utility counter, and I can't wrap my head around why it's even being considered.
Voted Fighting, for the same reasons as above. Stealth rock resistance is key.
Part of my perspective on this is that we really can't be expected to face every threat in the game equally well with simply a single typing, and that we sort of have to consider the fact that what we pick in these polls has to be able to point us in a direction where we don't have several bad weaknesses to cover for, and eventually bring us to some contrived ability to work out some of those weaknesses. For these reasons, I think that neutrality is the best thing to be going for in this poll, and the choices here reflect a balance between "strong resists" and "lack of bad weaknesses". My choice also reflects my opinion on where we ought to be going on this spectrum.
I voted in this poll for Electric. The reasoning behind this is that Electric is arguably the "ultimate" neutral typing other than Normal, in that it only has a single bad weakness (that is not difficult to negate or neutralize) and a handful of resists in addition to being hit neutral by most attacks. This gives us a good base to work with that doesn't effectively compromise or bind us in a situation where we have a bunch of strong and useful resistances, but multiple bad weaknesses to work out with another typing that simply doesn't cover everything. In simplest terms, Electric gives us a typing that could effectively work equally well against just about everything, and it has very minimal drawbacks that can pretty much be addressed by a single thing (whether it's typing or ability).
Let's look at the other choices (as far as I'm concerned, none of them are bad choices, and nothing that was allowed into this poll is going to come close to ruining the Pokemon, but I prefer some to others):
Fighting is similar to Electric in that it has very few weaknesses, only two that aren't too commonplace in standard OU, and takes mostly neutral hits. In addition, it has three resistances that are pretty useful, those being Rock, Bug and Dark. These three types generally have some very powerful physical users behind them, particularly Scizor and Tyranitar, some of the most difficult Pokemon to switch into, and with this general advantage on the physical side, this would probably provide us with considerable leeway to focus primarily on Special bulk for taking strong attacks like Draco Meteor from Salamence. Generally speaking, I think this is one of the stronger routes we could be taking. However, I chose Electric largely because defensive Fighting-types have been tackled many times before, and TWICE in CAP (one of them was also supposed to be a decentralizer) and I feel that Electric has more to offer from a learning standpoint.
Water has a few nice perks going for it in terms of resistances, particularly Fire and Water (Ice is rarely ever STAB, so it's not that difficult to wall in general), and it's a neutral defensive typing for the most part. For these reasons, it's also a fine choice. Its two weaknesses, however, aren't particularly fun weaknesses to have when one is trying to tailor something to respond to specific threats. An Electric weakness really needs to be fixed, considering the number of users, many of them STAB. Grass is also a deceptively dangerous type to be weak to, as the few Grass-type moves in the metagame tend to be pretty strong, most of them being backed up by STAB, though this weakness is probably not the worst concern. In addition, there are already plenty of bulky Waters in the metagame, and we would need to make it a point to differentiate from the standard bulky Water switch-in utility.
Steel has a boatload of inherent resists, the most prominent of which being Dragon. In fact, the Dragon resist itself is probably one major perk that Steel has above the other typings, on the basis that Dragon sports the most powerful moves in the game from a general standpoint, and that this basically makes it much easier to respond to that immediately. However, this comes at a cost of having three horrible weaknesses in the form of Ground, Fire and Fighting. These three typings are generally thought to have pretty good coverage with one another, to the point where we probably wouldn't be able to cover them with another typing/ability combo. Ground is generally a strong type that you don't want to be weak to, but it's not the worst thing in the world because it's not that difficult to circumvent and most users of it don't get STAB on it or are defensive Pokemon (except for Mamoswine and Flygon really). On the other hand, you simply CAN'T be weak to types like Fire and Fighting and be able to stand up to threats like Heatran, Infernape and Lucario. While the Dragon resist is important to have, I want people who are voting for Steel to seriously consider how exactly we're going to deal with these problems when they arise later, which they will have to.
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These are my general opinions of the typings in the poll. Again, I don't think that anything in the poll is a terrible choice, and pretty much any of them is guaranteed to be an interesting and suitable type for exploring this concept. This post is to show you where I stand, and to give a good idea of how each of these individual typings will affect the course of our project, hypothetically.
I voted in this poll for Electric. The reasoning behind this is that Electric is arguably the "ultimate" neutral typing other than Normal, in that it only has a single bad weakness (that is not difficult to negate or neutralize) and a handful of resists in addition to being hit neutral by most attacks. This gives us a good base to work with that doesn't effectively compromise or bind us in a situation where we have a bunch of strong and useful resistances, but multiple bad weaknesses to work out with another typing that simply doesn't cover everything. In simplest terms, Electric gives us a typing that could effectively work equally well against just about everything, and it has very minimal drawbacks that can pretty much be addressed by a single thing (whether it's typing or ability).
Let's look at the other choices (as far as I'm concerned, none of them are bad choices, and nothing that was allowed into this poll is going to come close to ruining the Pokemon, but I prefer some to others):
Fighting is similar to Electric in that it has very few weaknesses, only two that aren't too commonplace in standard OU, and takes mostly neutral hits. In addition, it has three resistances that are pretty useful, those being Rock, Bug and Dark. These three types generally have some very powerful physical users behind them, particularly Scizor and Tyranitar, some of the most difficult Pokemon to switch into, and with this general advantage on the physical side, this would probably provide us with considerable leeway to focus primarily on Special bulk for taking strong attacks like Draco Meteor from Salamence. Generally speaking, I think this is one of the stronger routes we could be taking. However, I chose Electric largely because defensive Fighting-types have been tackled many times before, and TWICE in CAP (one of them was also supposed to be a decentralizer) and I feel that Electric has more to offer from a learning standpoint.
Water has a few nice perks going for it in terms of resistances, particularly Fire and Water (Ice is rarely ever STAB, so it's not that difficult to wall in general), and it's a neutral defensive typing for the most part. For these reasons, it's also a fine choice. Its two weaknesses, however, aren't particularly fun weaknesses to have when one is trying to tailor something to respond to specific threats. An Electric weakness really needs to be fixed, considering the number of users, many of them STAB. Grass is also a deceptively dangerous type to be weak to, as the few Grass-type moves in the metagame tend to be pretty strong, most of them being backed up by STAB, though this weakness is probably not the worst concern. In addition, there are already plenty of bulky Waters in the metagame, and we would need to make it a point to differentiate from the standard bulky Water switch-in utility.
Steel has a boatload of inherent resists, the most prominent of which being Dragon. In fact, the Dragon resist itself is probably one major perk that Steel has above the other typings, on the basis that Dragon sports the most powerful moves in the game from a general standpoint, and that this basically makes it much easier to respond to that immediately. However, this comes at a cost of having three horrible weaknesses in the form of Ground, Fire and Fighting. These three typings are generally thought to have pretty good coverage with one another, to the point where we probably wouldn't be able to cover them with another typing/ability combo. Ground is generally a strong type that you don't want to be weak to, but it's not the worst thing in the world because it's not that difficult to circumvent and most users of it don't get STAB on it or are defensive Pokemon (except for Mamoswine and Flygon really). On the other hand, you simply CAN'T be weak to types like Fire and Fighting and be able to stand up to threats like Heatran, Infernape and Lucario. While the Dragon resist is important to have, I want people who are voting for Steel to seriously consider how exactly we're going to deal with these problems when they arise later, which they will have to.
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These are my general opinions of the typings in the poll. Again, I don't think that anything in the poll is a terrible choice, and pretty much any of them is guaranteed to be an interesting and suitable type for exploring this concept. This post is to show you where I stand, and to give a good idea of how each of these individual typings will affect the course of our project, hypothetically.
Steel. Without posting a long ramble about why I like it for the project; simply put, I would rather start with a defensive type than pump base stats into the defenses. I also think that there are ways to address the weaknesses in a practical way without squelching creativity though I understand why they are a turn off to many. (Don't forget that this is the only way to resist Dragon)
Anyway, all of these choices have a lot of potential so I'm just glad to be moving on.
Anyway, all of these choices have a lot of potential so I'm just glad to be moving on.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm far from experienced in CAP or Smogon in general, but I thought that sticking to the concept is more important than learning about the metagame, barring us practically recreating an existing Pokemon. Also, unless I missed something (which I very well could have), I don't believe CAP10 being a defensive Pokemon is set in stone. A powerful offense backed by some alternate means of switching in (custom ability, perhaps?). However, I agree that another defensive fighting type would be a bit of a drag.
Also, there is a thunder type CAP, Cyclohm (sp?). While two may be double one, it is only one more than one.
Skymin_Flower
It's Seed Flare time.
Well actually the entire point of CAP is to learn more about the metagame. The concept is just a way to help us do that. And we have doubled up on types before (Rev and Argh) so it does not matter that much of we have another Electric type. However I agree with the fact that CAP 10 does not HAVE to be Defensive. Voted Water, because of good neutral coverage.
I picked Fighting because of its good resist to Stealth Rock, weakness to a few rare types in standard play, and because it ability to have decent offensive capabilities and diversity without creating a gigantic broken movepool. This overall provides CAP10 with a good balance on both the offensive side and the defensive side right off the bat.
Ah, my bad about the learning thing. Still, I think we can learn with a fighting type if we make an effort to stick to the concept, as CAP10 has a different concept, and therefore would offer a different form of insight regardless or typing. Also, a good way to do this could be to avoid making CAP10 defensive, though it wouldn't be impossible to pull some knowledge out of another defensive fighting type, so long as we stick to the concept. And for the reasons I've previously stated, I believe Fighting sticks to the concept a bit better than Electric does.
Also, I believe you misunderstood what I was saying about repeating types. I wasn't complaining about an electric cap already existing (so I guess you missed that I'm in favor of a third fighting CAP). I actually meant that repeating types doesn't matter too much.
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one disappointed to see Poison missing.
I voted Fighting, mostly for the Stealth Rock and U-Turn resist. I could imagine a pokemon struggling to counter Scizor if switching into a single U-turn puts it in KO range from a couple of Bullet Punches after SR damage. Gyarados without Rest will gladly attest to how poorly that works out. I'm not too keen on all the offensive potential a Fighting type would give, but that could at least be remedied with really poor STAB options.
I voted Fighting, mostly for the Stealth Rock and U-Turn resist. I could imagine a pokemon struggling to counter Scizor if switching into a single U-turn puts it in KO range from a couple of Bullet Punches after SR damage. Gyarados without Rest will gladly attest to how poorly that works out. I'm not too keen on all the offensive potential a Fighting type would give, but that could at least be remedied with really poor STAB options.
Fighting doesn't really have good stab for a defensive pokemon anyway. Close Combat and Superpower lower usefulness, Cross Chop has iffy accuracy, Brick Break just sucks really... Unless it goes special in which case I guess Aura Sphere has a shot.
I chose fighting for it's resistance to Stealth Rock, Pursuit and U-Turn, all good things. I'm not really seeing the appeal of electric. Flying resistance is nothing special, and the Steel resistance only really helps against Scizor. Ground Weakness is never good, and to get rid of it we need to be a Flying Type (yay, ice weakness, SR weakness AND get rid of our previous electric resistance) or have Levitate (There's one ability gone...). I guess we could aim for neutrality, but the potential there isn't pretty either (Bug? Grass? A weakness to Fire, remove our flying resistance and weak to either Rock (SR) or Ice, Bug and Poison. Hmmmm).
I chose fighting for it's resistance to Stealth Rock, Pursuit and U-Turn, all good things. I'm not really seeing the appeal of electric. Flying resistance is nothing special, and the Steel resistance only really helps against Scizor. Ground Weakness is never good, and to get rid of it we need to be a Flying Type (yay, ice weakness, SR weakness AND get rid of our previous electric resistance) or have Levitate (There's one ability gone...). I guess we could aim for neutrality, but the potential there isn't pretty either (Bug? Grass? A weakness to Fire, remove our flying resistance and weak to either Rock (SR) or Ice, Bug and Poison. Hmmmm).
I voted Fighting because of the resistances and no major weaknesses. Resisting Stealth Rock, U-Turn and Pursuit are some nice treats.
I've said earlier why I didn't like steel that much (Weaknesses), Allthough I would suport a Steel-Grass just for it's originality. Anyways, it won't realy be a problem if its voted Steel, you can allways compensate for its weaknesess through ability and Typing.
Water, allthough it's a good typing I don't suport it that much. It weaknesses won't get in the way as much as Steels but countering specific threats might become harder. Water-fire is a cool typing that would make a steem based pokemon. But it wouldn't fit with this CAP at all.
Electric is second on my list, levitate can deal with it's weakness. Good netruals, Nice resistances. It also has cool secondary typing combos like Electric-Fire with Levitate, Electric-Grass with Thick Fat. I will suport this if it wins.
PS: Don't take my typing ability combos as poll jumping, I was merely talking about the typings in gereral and what i think is nice original typings for cool pokemons in general.
I've said earlier why I didn't like steel that much (Weaknesses), Allthough I would suport a Steel-Grass just for it's originality. Anyways, it won't realy be a problem if its voted Steel, you can allways compensate for its weaknesess through ability and Typing.
Water, allthough it's a good typing I don't suport it that much. It weaknesses won't get in the way as much as Steels but countering specific threats might become harder. Water-fire is a cool typing that would make a steem based pokemon. But it wouldn't fit with this CAP at all.
Electric is second on my list, levitate can deal with it's weakness. Good netruals, Nice resistances. It also has cool secondary typing combos like Electric-Fire with Levitate, Electric-Grass with Thick Fat. I will suport this if it wins.
PS: Don't take my typing ability combos as poll jumping, I was merely talking about the typings in gereral and what i think is nice original typings for cool pokemons in general.
Voted for Fighting.
A decent STAB, key resistances to Dark, Bug, and Rock, and it plays well with numerous possible secondary typings. Its weaknesses are not common enough to be worth caring about (yet), so we can devote its abilities to something cool instead of "hey let's get rid of a weakness".
Hariyama comes to mind when thinking of the potential behind a Fighting-type Utility Counter. If we make something like that, but fit for the OU environment, I would personally be very satisfied.
A decent STAB, key resistances to Dark, Bug, and Rock, and it plays well with numerous possible secondary typings. Its weaknesses are not common enough to be worth caring about (yet), so we can devote its abilities to something cool instead of "hey let's get rid of a weakness".
Hariyama comes to mind when thinking of the potential behind a Fighting-type Utility Counter. If we make something like that, but fit for the OU environment, I would personally be very satisfied.
I voted Electric. It can run a Hidden Power to take care of ground and blast most of the metagame with supereffective/neutral STAB Electric moves.
I probably should have said all this a thread ago, but oh well...
I actually really like the idea of an Electric type as the base type for this CAP. There are only a handful of viable Eletric in OU to begin with, and with it's lack of weaknesses it allows alot to be built on to. But my problem really is that one single weakness it does have. I find that the Ground weakness is just to intolerable.
Too many of the top threats in OU carry a ground moves as part of their staple sets:
Metagross, Salamence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Machamp, Mamoswine, Gyarados, Heatran, Electivire, Hippowdon, Gliger, Snorlax, Swampert, Aerodactyl, Flygon....
That's a huge list and they all pack a punch. This will plausably makes CAP10's job really hard.
Yes this can likely be supplimented with a secondary type of Flying, Grass, Bug or Levitate. But they each come with more cons than pros - Flying and Bug present a Steath Rock weaknesses which I think really needs to be avoided for a mon that is designed to switch in so often. Grass and Bug (again) bring with them a Fire weakness which I find is almost as intolerable as a the Ground weakness (though not as bad). And obviously Levitate hogs up the Ability when I think we could be doing so much more with it.
All and all, I like the idea of of an Electric type, but is just has one whopper of a hurdle attached to it. So I'm a bit disheatened that is leading this poll so convincingly so far.
The Steel debate has been done to death so far, so I'm not going to go there, but it's already evident that despite it's amazing amount of resistance, I have a huge problem with a Ground and Fire weakness for the CAP. Let alone Fighting as well. They're just too common.
Fighting however has a solid foundation. Uncommon weakness in Flying and Psychic. Useful resistant to Stealth Rock, Pursuit and U-turn specifically and no weakness to priority moves. About the only thing not really going for it is it's STAB. While a good STAP in alot of ways, it doesn't have the neutral coverage that Water has....... but I'd be perfectly happy with Fighting as our chosen primary type. And it's a very close second for me.
In the end I vote Water. It it's a solid foundation. It fits almost every criteria we need for this CAP so far imo.
- No Stealth Rock weakness
- No U-turn weakness
- No Pursuit weakness
- No weaknesses to priority moves (infact resists, Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet)
- Good resistance.
- Few/Uncommon weaknesses
- Solid neutal STAB.
Useful and reliable resistance in Fire, Water, Ice, and Steel is not bad, and difficult to pass up. With the excpetion of Rotom-A, Zapdos and Celebi, Electric and Grass STAB is rare to have to compete with. And as coverage moves, it's often in the form of low base power Hidden Powers or Grassknot (which can be made almost negligable if we decide on a low wieght). Thunderbolt at base 95 is the biggest worry, but it's still much better than Fire Blast at 120. And the other attributes are self explainetary.
Water is the most all round base start for a CAP that needs to be interchangeable.
Vote WATER!!
I actually really like the idea of an Electric type as the base type for this CAP. There are only a handful of viable Eletric in OU to begin with, and with it's lack of weaknesses it allows alot to be built on to. But my problem really is that one single weakness it does have. I find that the Ground weakness is just to intolerable.
Too many of the top threats in OU carry a ground moves as part of their staple sets:
Metagross, Salamence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Machamp, Mamoswine, Gyarados, Heatran, Electivire, Hippowdon, Gliger, Snorlax, Swampert, Aerodactyl, Flygon....
That's a huge list and they all pack a punch. This will plausably makes CAP10's job really hard.
Yes this can likely be supplimented with a secondary type of Flying, Grass, Bug or Levitate. But they each come with more cons than pros - Flying and Bug present a Steath Rock weaknesses which I think really needs to be avoided for a mon that is designed to switch in so often. Grass and Bug (again) bring with them a Fire weakness which I find is almost as intolerable as a the Ground weakness (though not as bad). And obviously Levitate hogs up the Ability when I think we could be doing so much more with it.
All and all, I like the idea of of an Electric type, but is just has one whopper of a hurdle attached to it. So I'm a bit disheatened that is leading this poll so convincingly so far.
The Steel debate has been done to death so far, so I'm not going to go there, but it's already evident that despite it's amazing amount of resistance, I have a huge problem with a Ground and Fire weakness for the CAP. Let alone Fighting as well. They're just too common.
Fighting however has a solid foundation. Uncommon weakness in Flying and Psychic. Useful resistant to Stealth Rock, Pursuit and U-turn specifically and no weakness to priority moves. About the only thing not really going for it is it's STAB. While a good STAP in alot of ways, it doesn't have the neutral coverage that Water has....... but I'd be perfectly happy with Fighting as our chosen primary type. And it's a very close second for me.
In the end I vote Water. It it's a solid foundation. It fits almost every criteria we need for this CAP so far imo.
- No Stealth Rock weakness
- No U-turn weakness
- No Pursuit weakness
- No weaknesses to priority moves (infact resists, Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet)
- Good resistance.
- Few/Uncommon weaknesses
- Solid neutal STAB.
Useful and reliable resistance in Fire, Water, Ice, and Steel is not bad, and difficult to pass up. With the excpetion of Rotom-A, Zapdos and Celebi, Electric and Grass STAB is rare to have to compete with. And as coverage moves, it's often in the form of low base power Hidden Powers or Grassknot (which can be made almost negligable if we decide on a low wieght). Thunderbolt at base 95 is the biggest worry, but it's still much better than Fire Blast at 120. And the other attributes are self explainetary.
Water is the most all round base start for a CAP that needs to be interchangeable.
Vote WATER!!
I voted Electric. It is really good for coverage, and helps to destroy the Water-types that infest every nook and corner of the metagame.
Electric - A resistance to itself and Steel ain't too bad. True, you still have a Ground weakness, but look at Celebi. It survives random SE attacks just fine. All we really need to do is aim for somewhere round its stats and we're pretty much good to go. Levitate gets rid of it too if need be, which means we don't have a single weakness to worry about.
WARNING Sarcasm ahead!!!
Yes because blasting the entire metagame with its STAB move and then another move for coverage is exactly how you counter any pokemons but not all at once. I realy need to try stay on subject
And because only ground pokemon use ground attacks.
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