I'm voting Electric mostly because of its one significant weakness. I feel our CAP will need bulk to switch in and if it doesn't have a chink in its armor somewhere then I don't think it will fit the concept. As it has been said before me, though ground weakness is a liability, it is one of the easiest weaknesses to play around with team support. Either one will work fine as the concept itself is unique and I don't think either type will hinder CAP10 from being successful.
-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll 2
- Thread starter beej
- Start date
- Status
Voted Fighting.
Fighting's weaknesses are a lot easier to work around without having to resort to setting secondary type/abilities just to cover it up.
Fighting's weaknesses are a lot easier to work around without having to resort to setting secondary type/abilities just to cover it up.
I'm largely reitterating my statements from the last two type discussions, minus the steel bashing, so if you've already read my previous book on why Fighting is the best type for CAP10, you can skip this:
Something many people seem to be forgetting is that this Pokemon is supposed to be customizable to counter specific threats. Barring an Arceus-like trait, typing is in no way customizable. Therefore, we should be looking for a typing that will have the least impact on CAP10's ability to counter, while making it able to be an effective utility counter. This is why the Fighting type is the best type.
Fighting has very few weaknesses and resistances, most of which do not see much use anyway. However, it has two key resistances that contribute to its use as a utility counter as a whole: stealth rock resistance and pursuit resistance. Stealth Rock resistance lets it switch around with a bit more safely, while pursuit resistance prevents it from being locked in by something it's not meant to counter. Also, resistance to Sucker Punch would allow it to counter a few additional things that it would normally not be able to counter.
A glaring flaw in the Fighting type for a utility counter is it's powerful Fighting stab. However, being a fighting type does not guarantee a powerful fighting stab move, and if the fighting stab proves to be an issue, it can easily be alleviated in the movepool creation process.
The reasoning behind the selection of the Electric type is very similar to that supporting the Fighting type, however, there are more reasons why we should avoid Electric than Fighting. In addition to Fighting's flaw of a powerful base stab, Electric also carries with it a deadly ground weakness. Most people supporting Electric are likely thinking of slapping Levitate on CAP10 and not giving the ability another thought, but I believe this concept allows for much more creativity than that. As a side note, Electric also lacks the other minor advantages of resistance to stealth rock, pursuit, and sucker punch. Also, it is resistant to itself, a prominent offensive type, which is something we don't want, since the typing we choose should affect CAP10 as little as possible. Also, while Electric may have less weaknesses than Fighting, its one weakness is much more troubling than Fighting's two.
Something many people seem to be forgetting is that this Pokemon is supposed to be customizable to counter specific threats. Barring an Arceus-like trait, typing is in no way customizable. Therefore, we should be looking for a typing that will have the least impact on CAP10's ability to counter, while making it able to be an effective utility counter. This is why the Fighting type is the best type.
Fighting has very few weaknesses and resistances, most of which do not see much use anyway. However, it has two key resistances that contribute to its use as a utility counter as a whole: stealth rock resistance and pursuit resistance. Stealth Rock resistance lets it switch around with a bit more safely, while pursuit resistance prevents it from being locked in by something it's not meant to counter. Also, resistance to Sucker Punch would allow it to counter a few additional things that it would normally not be able to counter.
A glaring flaw in the Fighting type for a utility counter is it's powerful Fighting stab. However, being a fighting type does not guarantee a powerful fighting stab move, and if the fighting stab proves to be an issue, it can easily be alleviated in the movepool creation process.
The reasoning behind the selection of the Electric type is very similar to that supporting the Fighting type, however, there are more reasons why we should avoid Electric than Fighting. In addition to Fighting's flaw of a powerful base stab, Electric also carries with it a deadly ground weakness. Most people supporting Electric are likely thinking of slapping Levitate on CAP10 and not giving the ability another thought, but I believe this concept allows for much more creativity than that. As a side note, Electric also lacks the other minor advantages of resistance to stealth rock, pursuit, and sucker punch. Also, it is resistant to itself, a prominent offensive type, which is something we don't want, since the typing we choose should affect CAP10 as little as possible. Also, while Electric may have less weaknesses than Fighting, its one weakness is much more troubling than Fighting's two.
My vote tied it up and I really hope CAP 10 becomes Fighting, mostly just because fighting pokemon tend to be more creative and versatile while most electric pokemon work the same and and generally pretty easy to counter.
Change of plan. I'll vote for Fighting this time.
It may have the amount of resistances as Electric, but all 3 resists are all useful (this includes a Stealth Rock resist), whereas Electric's Flying and self resists are pretty meh. You also don't have to worry about a Ground weakness, and no-one uses Flying or Psychic attacks... unless they're STABed
It may have the amount of resistances as Electric, but all 3 resists are all useful (this includes a Stealth Rock resist), whereas Electric's Flying and self resists are pretty meh. You also don't have to worry about a Ground weakness, and no-one uses Flying or Psychic attacks... unless they're STABed
Now that Water has been removed from the fray, Fighting, to my mind, is by far and away the most appropriate type for our concept over Electric.
I, and so many others, have already said it, but a weakness to Earthquake/power for a pokemon designed to be tailored toward a vast number of the top OU threats, is just to big of a hurdle to over come. And I fear far to much of the project will be didicated to compinsating for that. And in terms of useful resistance, Electric really only has one key resistance to Scizor's Bullet Punch.
Fighting however, while having two as apposed to one weakness, Psychic and Flying are not nearly as common or problematic. And it's key resistance to Pursuit, U-turn and Stealth Rock (not to menation Rock as a whole) are quite arguably more useful and wide spread in general than Bullet Punch.
STAB wise they could both be easily argued as equally good. So to me that is negligable.
It's the outstanding difference between these two types that make the differences.
Please vote Fighting
I, and so many others, have already said it, but a weakness to Earthquake/power for a pokemon designed to be tailored toward a vast number of the top OU threats, is just to big of a hurdle to over come. And I fear far to much of the project will be didicated to compinsating for that. And in terms of useful resistance, Electric really only has one key resistance to Scizor's Bullet Punch.
Fighting however, while having two as apposed to one weakness, Psychic and Flying are not nearly as common or problematic. And it's key resistance to Pursuit, U-turn and Stealth Rock (not to menation Rock as a whole) are quite arguably more useful and wide spread in general than Bullet Punch.
STAB wise they could both be easily argued as equally good. So to me that is negligable.
It's the outstanding difference between these two types that make the differences.
Please vote Fighting
Voted for Fighting. Fighting's weaknesses are not common (and they probably won't be even when this CAP makes it into the metagame because they're both pretty shitty attacking types in general), its resistances are much more useful than Electric's, and it gives us more versatility in our ability/movepool due to fact that we don't have to compensate for a move that almost every Pokemon that can learn it carries. The SR resist in particular means we can consider more typing options for our CAP and not worry about it becoming SR weak.
Holy shit this is a close poll.
Xaqwais, considering the common use of Earthquake compared to the rarity of flying and Psychic moves I consider your reasoning extremely flawed.
Xaqwais, considering the common use of Earthquake compared to the rarity of flying and Psychic moves I consider your reasoning extremely flawed.
I once again voted Fighting. A ground weak is horrible for switching in. Everything and its mother carries EQ, and being weak to something so many Pokemon carry will make it difficult to be able to counter everything. Unless, of course, it gets levitate, which will be discussed below. Fighting's weaknesses are MUCH less likely to be used anticipating a switch, and it features many key resistances. Electrics resists are nice, but not quite as important as Fighting.
Now, on the subject of Levitate, it's not as limiting as people seem to think. CaP10 will need to switch in a lot, and nothing helps switching in like immunity to Spikes and Tspikes. So being "stuck" with Levitate isn't really that bad for the concept. Electric would make a fine type too, should it win, though I still think Fighting is better.
Now, on the subject of Levitate, it's not as limiting as people seem to think. CaP10 will need to switch in a lot, and nothing helps switching in like immunity to Spikes and Tspikes. So being "stuck" with Levitate isn't really that bad for the concept. Electric would make a fine type too, should it win, though I still think Fighting is better.
If we pick electric we can actually rid CAP10 of all weaknesses with the use of an ability that also grants immunity to spikes. How would we deal with flying and psychic weaknesses? I know they aren't common but it still doesn't seem fitting that CAP10 will not be able to safely switch in against Togekiss, Bounce Gyarados, Azelf etc...
I have decided to vote for Fighting because the metagame is severally lacking in that type. Only 2 weaknesses which are not common types either. Stealth Rocks resistance also is pretty handy, Pursuit resistance so we can see less of Tyranitar. Also a nice type which can counter Blissey effectively.
Judging by the typing discussion, the first poll and the options for the second poll, it seems that what we as a community want is a typing with few resistances and few weaknesses, rather than a typing with lots of resistances and lots of weaknesses.
EDIT: Deck Knight explained why we would need to give a Steel-type CAP10 an ability or second type that negates one of its weaknesses. However, the reasoning he used cannot be applied to the idea that an Electric-type CAP10 would have to have Levitate. Jolteon and Electivire remain OU in spite of their weakness to Earthquake and neither of them run Magnet Rise.
Notice how I conveniently ignored the idea of Flying being the secondary type. This is because an Electric/Flying CAP10 would have weaknesses to Ice and Rock (and by extension Stealth Rock) and, for the sake of getting rid of a Ground-type weakness, it's not worth it.
EDIT: Deck Knight explained why we would need to give a Steel-type CAP10 an ability or second type that negates one of its weaknesses. However, the reasoning he used cannot be applied to the idea that an Electric-type CAP10 would have to have Levitate. Jolteon and Electivire remain OU in spite of their weakness to Earthquake and neither of them run Magnet Rise.
Notice how I conveniently ignored the idea of Flying being the secondary type. This is because an Electric/Flying CAP10 would have weaknesses to Ice and Rock (and by extension Stealth Rock) and, for the sake of getting rid of a Ground-type weakness, it's not worth it.
Do the Electric Slide.
Ground is a pretty bad weakness to have, however it's also one of the easiest ones to address. Not only is there an ability specifically to address Ground moves, there is also a typing and a tutor move.
Fighting on the other hand only has the resistances to come in on, erm. Tyranitar. It doesn't resist any sort of priority move (Elec has Bullet Punch at least) and there are several mons that can switch a move around to hit it SE (Metagross, Jirachi). While the same could happen if we decide on a secondary type weak to Psychic, CAP10 will still resist their main STAB. Forcing standard mons to change their sets does change the metagame significantly.
Ground is a pretty bad weakness to have, however it's also one of the easiest ones to address. Not only is there an ability specifically to address Ground moves, there is also a typing and a tutor move.
Fighting on the other hand only has the resistances to come in on, erm. Tyranitar. It doesn't resist any sort of priority move (Elec has Bullet Punch at least) and there are several mons that can switch a move around to hit it SE (Metagross, Jirachi). While the same could happen if we decide on a secondary type weak to Psychic, CAP10 will still resist their main STAB. Forcing standard mons to change their sets does change the metagame significantly.
You're forgetting Sucker punch
To my knowledge, nothing uses Sucker Punch in OU on a standard set. It's everywhere in UU and LC, though. (Duggy used to IIRC, and Weavile has access but would be better off using Night Slash generally.)
Voted Electric, once again. This time, my thoughts on why it's a better option to Fighting.
I mentioned this somewhat in the Type Discussion thread. The Fighting type, unfortunately, is already played around quite well in he OU environment. Why? Almost every team carries around a Ghost, whether as a revenge killer or a spin blocker (Rotom especially). If we were to give CAP 10 a STAB that plays right into the Fighting/Ghost game, he will be easily played around with. While we could give it a Dark or Ghost-type move, we would then start creating a Machamp 2.0, except without (I assume) the choice of Substitute. While we can't assume that CAP 10 will be slow, we already know that the Rotom forms and Gengar are no slouches, and are mostly blindingly fast per Scarf. This, to me, is detrimental.
While something similar can be said for Electric and Ground, Ground types are much less frequent on OU teams than Ghosts. The only extremely common Ground type, to me, is Swampert (and perhaps Gliscor). With the exception of Flygon and some offensive Gliscor, the Ground types of OU are particularly slow, thus making a second move more viable to revenge the switch-in (if it's what the player wanted to counter). Furthermore, these switch-ins rely on using Earthquake to deal with Electric types rather than, say, neutral hits or status. If we were to even neutralize Ground, this kind of switch-in could be easily compensated.
Also, the resistances that Fighting is known for may seem appealing at first, but many of them won't be used initially unless you were to bait your opponent into using them (aside from U-Turn). I find Electric's resistances more usefull.
I mentioned this somewhat in the Type Discussion thread. The Fighting type, unfortunately, is already played around quite well in he OU environment. Why? Almost every team carries around a Ghost, whether as a revenge killer or a spin blocker (Rotom especially). If we were to give CAP 10 a STAB that plays right into the Fighting/Ghost game, he will be easily played around with. While we could give it a Dark or Ghost-type move, we would then start creating a Machamp 2.0, except without (I assume) the choice of Substitute. While we can't assume that CAP 10 will be slow, we already know that the Rotom forms and Gengar are no slouches, and are mostly blindingly fast per Scarf. This, to me, is detrimental.
While something similar can be said for Electric and Ground, Ground types are much less frequent on OU teams than Ghosts. The only extremely common Ground type, to me, is Swampert (and perhaps Gliscor). With the exception of Flygon and some offensive Gliscor, the Ground types of OU are particularly slow, thus making a second move more viable to revenge the switch-in (if it's what the player wanted to counter). Furthermore, these switch-ins rely on using Earthquake to deal with Electric types rather than, say, neutral hits or status. If we were to even neutralize Ground, this kind of switch-in could be easily compensated.
Also, the resistances that Fighting is known for may seem appealing at first, but many of them won't be used initially unless you were to bait your opponent into using them (aside from U-Turn). I find Electric's resistances more usefull.
like other topic,Fighting:
have SR and Pursuit resistance,and allows them to switch easily.
have SR and Pursuit resistance,and allows them to switch easily.
That is probably because, shocking though it may seem, neither Electivire nor Jolteon are defensive nor walls of any description, nor are really able to counter... anything.
I really cannot see the charm the Fighting-type brings over Electric, if I am honest, and some of the reasons given here on that point are bordering on ridiculous. What on earth are people talking about, stating that certain weaknesses are 'irrelevant'? We are supposed to be creating a Pokemon with defensive versatility, not yet another Fighting-type wall of dubious interest. To me it seems like the majority of people who have voted Fighting are simply unwilling to accept that a weakness is a weakness, no matter to what type.
There's this rubbish about Stealth Rock and Pursuit, too. OK, so it resists Rock and Dark, but a neutrality to them isn't exactly crippling, especially if CAP10 is getting high defensive stats to go with it. If anything I would say that Electric-type has an advantage even here, regardless of the Fighting-type's excellence, since it has a much bigger case going for it for the ability Levitate, which will give it immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes - which really is quite a big deal. And these supposedly amazing resistances on the part of Fighting - what do they really mean? All they have going for them, at all, is really being able to beat Tyranitar and Scizor more effectively - and arguably Electric does better against sweeper Scizor regardless. Oh, and Stealth Rock/Pursuit resistance. Actually, I'll go further than that:
Sum total of OU Pokemon whose common STAB Electric resists:
Scizor, Jirachi, Metagross, Magnezone, Jolteon, Electivire, Zapdos, Forretress, Bronzong, Togekiss, Skarmory, Gyarados.
Sum total of OU Pokemon whose common STAB Fighting resists:
Scizor, Heracross, Tyranitar, Weavile, Aerodactyl.
I have a very worrying feeling that here the community wants, above all, is simply yet another bog-standard defensive Pokemon, and more than that - in all honesty, I get the feeling from a lot of people here that the biggest reason they chose Fighting for the primary typing was in hope of getting yet another ridiculously hard-hitting offensive behemoth. If the finished product ends up unable to defend to an adequate extent, it doesn't matter how hard CAP10 can hit its counters, the Project will have failed, and we won't learn anything from the experience. Although this is only my personal view, and has nothing to do with the official process, I believe that it is absolutely first priority to learn more about the way the metagame works than to try and make the Pokemon itself 'successful', and I fervently believe that the lesser-explored Electric allows us to do that more effectively.
In summary:
- Electric has fewer weaknesses than Fighting and is MUCH less likely to encourage voter apathy with regards to weaknesses (ie. sloppy ignorance effect), and has a stronger case going for it with regards to Levitate, allowing it to dodge Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
- Electric arguably has better resistances than Fighting, as it allows it to take on a greater number of Pokemon on resistances alone.
- Electric has a better collection of STAB moves than Fighting, and gets a lot better neutral coverage as a STAB move.
- Electric has a much higher number of types that it can bond well with than Fighting. On Fighting's part, there are only three types it can bond with to get only two weaknesses. Psychic/Fighting is slightly self-defeating as it gets rid of Dark's supposed advantages in resistance to Pursuit and Bug, while not resolving the Flying-type weakness and making the Ghost problem even worse. Dark/Fighting is horrible on a defensive Pokemon, and simply screams 'yay fanboy Dark/Fighting sweeper!'. Not only that, but it also adds the problem of a large Fighting-type weakness, which is even worse than Electric's Ground weakness. So what is this final type that bonds well with Fighting? That's right. Electric/Fighting. Oh the irony.
I fail to see what would prevent us from making an Electric type Pokemon "creative" and "versatile." We can literally give this Pokemon any combination of stats, movepool, and ability--unrestricted by preexisting bias. C'mon, people. We're most likely not going to recreate the old Boltbeam fast Electric. Not to mention that Fighting usually ends up coming in only a few flavors of its own: Fast and Powerful, and Bulky and Powerful, or somewhere in between.
Anyhow, I voted Electric. It's amorphous as a typing and can be easily formed according to the situation.
Let's face it with Fighting: SR neutral isn't going to be crippling, and as far as I know, Pursuit's used by Tar only (with no guarantee Tar would be able to come in or do much damage with it).
Frankly, I think the issue is largely that people are looking at the currently existing Pokemon of either type a lot for their choice. I'd like to say that for all we know, we could be building the opposite of whatever stereotype that's been concocted for either type. Whatever Jolteon or Machamp are doing is probably going to have no more bearing on this than as an example to fix or emulate.
Secondly, I think having a clearly identifiable "one weakness" in Ground, could actually work towards our benefit. It would force more choices in what this Pokemon would be attempting to work against. For instance, having to use Magnet Rise to beat something would replace a move that it could have used to beat something else. In essence, it would force-fit a Utility counter because it would make things that much harder to account for everything.
But that's just an example.
The latest arguments in favor of Electric are really beginning to chip off my old support of fighting. Especially concerning Magmortified's proposition of a singular, clearly identifiable weakness to ground will force opponents to find a way to exploit it, and in turn, we can exploit this process of thought. Of course, a secondary typing complicates things, but I have heard a great number of interesting ideas over IRC recently concerning this project that go far beyond this CAP's typing alone anyway.
To sum up, I heavily support Electric winning, and though I voted for fighting and still wish it to win for that regard (petty, I know) I encourage everyone who has yet to vote and finds the time to read this post to also heavily consider the nuances and benefits of Electric type as a whole, especially concerning that singular weakness being exploitable.
To sum up, I heavily support Electric winning, and though I voted for fighting and still wish it to win for that regard (petty, I know) I encourage everyone who has yet to vote and finds the time to read this post to also heavily consider the nuances and benefits of Electric type as a whole, especially concerning that singular weakness being exploitable.
I voted for Fighting
I think Electivire fits the role as a Utility Counter somewhat already because with its large movepool it can take down 13 of the 17 types of the game with Super Effective damage, but it does not serve as a main "counter" to anything because of its paper defenses. With Electivire's declining usage I don't see how a "better" one with improved defenses will teach us much about the metagame.
Although I wouldn't mind making this a dual Electric-Fighting at all right off of the bat with this close of a poll.
I think Electivire fits the role as a Utility Counter somewhat already because with its large movepool it can take down 13 of the 17 types of the game with Super Effective damage, but it does not serve as a main "counter" to anything because of its paper defenses. With Electivire's declining usage I don't see how a "better" one with improved defenses will teach us much about the metagame.
Although I wouldn't mind making this a dual Electric-Fighting at all right off of the bat with this close of a poll.
I voted Electric because it is the most versatile of the proposed types. If a Fighting-type wins this poll, it will result in a relatively predictable Pokemon that will inevitably end up something like Hariyama, but maybe with a second type and some different moves. If we pick electric, however, there are lots of cool options, and I think it will result in a more creative and exciting rest of the CAP process for all of us.
- Status