CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5b - Ability Poll 2

[Rhys29]

It's probably a bit late to swing the vote now, but the argument that "oh we've got Shuca berry, why do we need Intimidate?" is absurd. You've got Shuca berry? Wonderful, switch in once, use up the berry, and watch in disdain as the opponent just switches out to come back at a later time. And when they do, where's your shuca berry now?

Only in the situation where a CAP10 user is foolish enough to switch into Earthquake. Against set up sweepers who commonly use Earthquake, such as DD Tyranitar/Salamence/Gyarados/Dragonite, it will provide CAP10 a turn to bring down the threat. CAP10 should be timing the switch as the opponent sets up anyways.

We do not need Intimidate to deal with set up sweepers who use Earthquake.

 

[Zystral]

We do not need Intimidate to deal with set up sweepers who use Earthquake.

Top Earthquake users in OU:
Salamence
Gyarados
Mamoswine
Tyranitar
Metagross

Metagross has Clear Body, but you outspeed. Unless it's an AgiliGross, then you're fucked.
Tyranitar may be weak to one of your main STABs and is always outrun, but you really want to take the risk? Especially on ScarfTar or Specially Bulky Tyranitar?
Mamoswine haha. Your Surf can't 2HKO. Earthquake will ALWAYS kill you unless you run Intimidate, so even a Shuca berry won't save you against Mamoswine.
Gyarados and Salamence are both Traced Intimidate, but essentially, the idea remains the same; without it, you would be outsped and smacked by a +1 EQ before you could OHKO back.

Also, good luck dealing with Lucario, Machamp, Heracross and Breloom.

 

[Rhys29]

Top Earthquake users in OU:
Salamence
Gyarados
Mamoswine
Tyranitar
Metagross

Metagross has Clear Body, but you outspeed. Unless it's an AgiliGross, then you're fucked.
Tyranitar may be weak to one of your main STABs and is always outrun, but you really want to take the risk? Especially on ScarfTar or Specially Bulky Tyranitar?
Mamoswine haha. Your Surf can't 2HKO. Earthquake will ALWAYS kill you unless you run Intimidate, so even a Shuca berry won't save you against Mamoswine.
Gyarados and Salamence are both Traced Intimidate, but essentially, the idea remains the same; without it, you would be outsped and smacked by a +1 EQ before you could OHKO back.

Also, good luck dealing with Lucario, Machamp, Heracross and Breloom.

Hahaha... Lucario has been talked about enough to the point where I don't have to say anything. Machamp still nails you with confusion then gtfo's. Everything gets Aerial Ace, so I don't think CAP10 should have an issue with Hera. Breloom still rapes CAP10 no matter what ability you give it. Oh, and NONE of these use Earthquake so I see no point in bringing them up.

Tyranitar will still beat Intimidate sets unless they specifically run Choice Band. It outruns, isn't OHKO'd by even a + nature'd Brick Break, and hits first if it has DD'd up (which it would since the point I'm making its set up sweepers). There is somewhat more of an advantage here but against every non-set up form of Tyranitar Intimidate is just as useless as Trace since it just hits and runs.

Hahaha, even mentioning Mamoswine is laughable. CAP10 simply won't beat it ever even with Magnet Rise. The only way CAP10 can stand a chance is to whittle it down with indirect damage to the point where it can come in and OHKO with some attack while surviving the Earthquake. And Shuca Berry does this about the same as Intimidate. Not to mention it's not a set up sweeper, which I think you have failed to realize was my point.

And way to do some calculations on your part and see how much a +1 Earthquake from Salamence or Gyarados deals to a Shuca CAP10. It easily survives a +1 Naive Salamence or Adamant Gyarados' LO Earthquake with 0 HP or Defense investments and has no problem OHKOing back.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Ultimately it comes down to this. Without Intimidate it will be very difficult to counter the threats I mentioned.

Infernape
Here's +2 Infernape Close Combat against max/max+ CAP10: 75.5% - 89.1%. We're looking at a small chance of ohko with just stealth rock, and a very high chance of ohko with stealth rock and spikes, or two SR switch-ins. Note that Ape can just switch out and come back in again later, at which point you can no longer counter it.
I realize that our definition of "counter" is a bit vague, but it probably shouldn't be "has to be at complete full health to have even a chance of surviving an SR-neutral Poke's attacks and dies if even minor residual damage is present".

To whoever suggested Aqua Jet, here's Aqua Jet damage from two spreads, the first being from the same spread above, and the second being from a max ATK spread (assuming no boosting item). This is against 4/0 Ape.

0 atk CAP10: 34.7% - 40.8%
Max ATK CAP10: 49% - 57.8%

So no, Aqua Jet isn't helping anything.

Tyranitar

Assuming max/max+ CAP10 again, CBTar does enough damage with Earthquake and Crunch that it'll prevent us from stalling it out with Recover (when taking the secondary effect of Crunch into consideration). This isn't such a big deal if we assume CAP10 gets Superpower or something, since we'll always outspeed Ttar, but it is a big deal if our best attack against it is going to be Waterfall.

Against DDTar we have much bigger problems. It's always going to outrun and ohko with Earthquake, and we won't outrun it unless we have a scarf (and if we have a scarf and it happens to be a CBTar we're up against, Earthquake nearly ohkos while all its other moves do massive damage).

Dragonite

Max/Max+ spreads simply lose against the Dragon Dancer. Scarfers can outspeed and ohko of course, but again, if you end up taking an Earthquake on the switch you're not going to be very happy. And before anyone says "well Dnite never spams EQ!", it sure as hell will start if CAP10 is running rampant.

There are others (some of which I mentioned in my previous post but don't want to do calcs for right now), but my general point is this. There are multiple, extremely dangerous physical threats that our "Utility Counter" will vaguely check at best if it doesn't have Intimidate. It's just that simple. If it's a part of our concept that we cannot win against offensive threats that many teams have issues with, then fine, don't vote for Intimidate. But if that's the case I guess I just understood the concept wrong.

Edit: For those suggesting Shuca Berry, here's +1 Outrage against 0/252 CAP10: 93.7% - 110.4%. If Mence sees your lack of an item, it's obviously going to Outrage instead of risking EQ (which does only slightly more damage). And you need to be 0/252, because if you try to run max/max+, Mence beats you just by EQing/Outraging on the switch.

Of course both Intimidate and Trace help against this by knocking down that +1...but the same can't be said for Dragonite!

 

[scampy]

With regards to Earthquake, I don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that CAP10 is likely to get Magnet Rise. This allows it to take a hit from Mamoswine or Metagross, outrun and Magnet Rise, and then win. Granted Magnet Rise is somewhat crumby on anything not named Magnezone, but the point is that CAP10 still has the capability to counter them. As for Tyranitar, the most common variant is Jolly Choice Scarf, and Earthquake finds itself on ~40% of Tyranitar, so it doesn't hurt as much.

The hard hitting Fighting types are a valid concern though, but again so long as CAP10 has a sufficient movepool I think it can come out on top. Machamp is scary, but you can Trace its No Guard ability and punish the opponent with 100% accurate attacks. Lucario can be beaten with Deck Knight's weird example of Power Swap. Heracross I guess is a punk, but it's so rare now that I'd hardly worry about it. SD Infernape might be able to take an Aqua Jet, but Waterfall/Surf will OHKO after Close Combat's defense drops, so if CAP10 lives then Infernape does not.

Enemy number one is Breloom, but as it infamously spams Spore and hides under a Sub I'm not convinced that Intimidate is overly useful here anyway.

 

[Deck Knight]

Not to mention everyone's love affair with SD Infernape seems to be a new fangled obsession. Since when was SD Infernape even common? Plot Mixape is much more threatening and Intimidate does jack to it.

Here's Infernape's Move Usage for January 2010:

| Infernape | Move | Close Combat | 85.3 |
| Infernape | Move | Grass Knot | 41.1 |
| Infernape | Move | Fire Blast | 36.4 |
| Infernape | Move | HP-Ice | 24.6 |
| Infernape | Move | U-turn | 21.4 |
| Infernape | Move | Flamethrower | 21.4 |
| Infernape | Move | Overheat | 20.4 |
| Infernape | Move | Stealth Rock | 19.2 |
| Infernape | Move | Mach Punch | 16.8 |
| Infernape | Move | Fake Out | 16.7 |
| Infernape | Move | Nasty Plot | 15.6 |
| Infernape | Move | Stone Edge | 14.3 |
| Infernape | Move | Flare Blitz | 13.2 |
| Infernape | Move | Vacuum Wave | 12.8 |
| Infernape | Move | Other (9) | < 9.0 |

Swords Dance isn't even on here. Although honestly given Infernape outspeeds CAP10, an Ape counter is probably going to need Choice Scarf. I suppose a 110+ Spe Stat Spread would have helped with that, but that time has passed and honestly, we're talking about Infernape here. It can't switch into CAP10 at any point in time, and if it does come in safely it can't hope to win in a confrontation. The only way these pro-Intimidate scenarios work is if the Pokemon in question always gets their +2 boost unharmed AND possesses Life Orb instead of something like Focus Sash.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

i'm enjoying reading the anti-intimidate posts. one person says "intimidate is too powerful and counters too many things at once" and the next person immediately says "intimidate isn't powerful enough, trace is way better!"

frankly, i have no clue where the "it's too powerful" argument is coming from. the effect vanishes after the opponent switches, people. it does not wall everything just because it has intimidate.

as for the "trace is better" argument, i'm just not seeing it. trace is good against... jolteon and flygon? intimdate covers practically every physical attacker (with two notable exceptions) and especially fighting-types, against whom trace doesn't help at all. how about we assume for now that cap10 will get both trac and intimidate. is anybody going to use trace, realistically?

intimidate is the better choice here.

deck: so trace is more useful against nasty plot infernape, is it?

 

[familyguyman]

i'm enjoying reading the anti-intimidate posts. one person says "intimidate is too powerful and counters too many things at once" and the next person immediately says "intimidate isn't powerful enough, trace is way better!"

frankly, i have no clue where the "it's too powerful" argument is coming from. the effect vanishes after the opponent switches, people. it does not wall everything just because it has intimidate.

as for the "trace is better" argument, i'm just not seeing it. trace is good against... jolteon and flygon? intimdate covers practically every physical attacker (with two notable exceptions) and especially fighting-types, against whom trace doesn't help at all. how about we assume for now that cap10 will get both trac and intimidate. is anybody going to use trace, realistically?

intimidate is the better choice here.

While there are many "anti-intimidate" arguments, some of them just aren't very good, such as the ones you mentioned.

My biggest problem is that Intimidate somewhat limits the tailoring of CAP10. To me, with Intimidate, it becomes too easy to just go Surf + T-Bolt + Coverage and just counter almost all physical attackers at once, without any tailoring. With Trace, while you can theoretically counter many things at once, there's a big difference in countering Kingdra versus, say, Lucario. Intimidate can help counter both at once, Trace only helps counter Kingdra. While this might be limiting, I think it's needed given the stats and typing so far. I think a secondary ability can be useful to help round out the countering spectrum. You are right, between Trace and Intimidate, Trace would rarely be used but that doesn't mean Intimidate is a better option for this case.

 

[Deck Knight]

i'm enjoying reading the anti-intimidate posts. one person says "intimidate is too powerful and counters too many things at once" and the next person immediately says "intimidate isn't powerful enough, trace is way better!"

Nice Strawman. Trace is different, not better. I equally enjoy reading the pro Intimidate posts because it's all "+1 CC! +2 CC! Scizor Bug Bite + Bullet Punch BAM! I didn't calc this but it sounds right!"

frankly, i have no clue where the "it's too powerful" argument is coming from. the effect vanishes after the opponent switches, people. it does not wall everything just because it has intimidate.

Almost all of the pro-Intimidate legion keep talking about eating +1 Atk this and +2 Atk that. If an opponent switches out then it doesn't have any stat boosts to speak of. Instead it has to eat two attacks from CAP10, which most of the mons pro-Intimidate posters seem to be pointing to as examples can't really do. CAP10 is quite proficient at taking unboosted attacks. Intimidate is only valuable from the point of switching in, and it allows CAP10 to switch into too much at once. Intimidate lets it shut down almost an entire type just by virtue of its existence, and reduces Earthquake damage more than Filter does. When CAP10 is facing +0 Lucario and +0 Infernape, it always wins. Only when it's forced to switch in against them is it under any threat. The point is it makes it so that it can switch into the entire physical metagame and anything that comes in afterward cannot adequately address CAP10. It can come in on any physical attacker and then beat any physical attacker that hasn't boosted yet.

as for the "trace is better" argument, i'm just not seeing it. trace is good against... jolteon and flygon? intimdate covers practically every physical attacker (with two notable exceptions) and especially fighting-types, against whom trace doesn't help at all. how about we assume for now that cap10 will get both trac and intimidate. is anybody going to use trace, realistically?

intimidate is the better choice here.

deck: so trace is more useful against nasty plot infernape, is it?

No, Trace and Intimidate are both pointless against PlotApe and I never said otherwise. Given CAP10's stats, your item (read: Choice Scarf) is probably the best way to address the most commonly used Infernape. Swords Dance Infernape can't even get its defining move into the usage statistics. It's an extremely uncommon threat contrived for the purposes of Intimidate boosterism. Though I must say that yes, if CAP10 has a Fire Move and eats 68% of its HP countering Infernape, then anything slower and Fire Weak can't come in afterward to terrorize it.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

Nice Strawman. Trace is different, not better. I equally enjoy reading the pro Intimidate posts because it's all "+1 CC! +2 CC! Scizor Bug Bite + Bullet Punch BAM! I didn't calc this but it sounds right!"

i'm not strawmanning at all; people have actually said that. and as an aside, i personally don't think cap10 really has any business switching into scizor at all, though intimidate would help against swords dancers

Almost all of the pro-Intimidate legion keep talking about eating +1 Atk this and +2 Atk that. If an opponent switches out then it doesn't have any stat boosts to speak of. Instead it has to eat two attacks from CAP10, which most of the mons pro-Intimidate posters seem to be pointing to as examples can't really do.

yeah man i agree its totally hard to take attacks from base 80 offenses

No, Trace and Intimidate are both pointless against PlotApe and I never said otherwise.

the one move that infernape always has is close combat (as you pointed out) so trace is clearly more worthless than intimidate

 

[Seizen]

Well, I voted Intimidate yesterday, but feel I may as well point out that once more, we've said everything which needs to be said, and now we're simply rehashing old arguments.

Secondly, I agree that most of these sets we're theoretically countering are simply that: theoretical. If anyone actually runs SD Infernape, I'd like to talk to them, as that's ridiculous to use as an excuse to choose Intimidate.
Similarly, the only Pokemon the pro-Intimidate users are covering are the sweepers. I'm not saying we should ignore them, but I'd much prefer to consider that some Pokemon that need counters aren't sweepers. Especially Suicune or Vaporeon.

While Trace isn't as useful, it allows us more customization. Surely while we don't want another Porygon 2, it's no better to have another Intimidate user. So win some, you lose some.

 

[Deck Knight]

yeah man i agree its totally hard to take attacks from base 80 offenses

It is for Infernape, Lucario, and litany of Rock and Ground mons that Intimidate supposedly helps so much with. Why do people still keep bringing up Mamoswine? Unless you've baited Ice Shard you shouldn't even be thinking about switching into Swine, and since they almost never run Roar, Magnet Rise eliminates its effectiveness. Electric/Water comes as a given that most of the pokemon that use EQ are going to have an issue with using it before taking a hit. Specifically, none of them can afford to switch in often.

the one move that infernape always has is close combat (as you pointed out) so trace is clearly more worthless than intimidate

Yeah, and without an SD Boost Ape barely musters a 3HKO. That Intimidate turns it into a 5HKO is rather beside the point, as unboosted CC isn't an issue for CAP10 at all, so why should we allow it to easy mode counter every physical attacker in the metagame at the same time? The argument that Intimidate is bad is a poor one, as we both know, so there's really no need for you to brandish the word "worthless" about in every other sentence.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Similarly, the only Pokemon the pro-Intimidate users are covering are the sweepers. I'm not saying we should ignore them, but I'd much prefer to consider that some Pokemon that need counters aren't sweepers. Especially Suicune or Vaporeon.

Since CAP10 has an Electric / Water typing and Very Good special defenses, Suicune and Vaporeon are not going to be doing much to CAP10 anyway. And CAP10 is not supposed to be a wallbreaker, which is evident from its Somewhat Defensive stat bias. Being a wallbreaker was never in Reachzero's original concept. Also, if stopping setup tanks is important, Intimidate is more helpful against setup tanks than Trace is because it lowers the Attack stats of Curse users like Snorlax and Hippowdon. CAP10 will not benefit from Tracing Snorlax's Thick Fat because Snorlax should not be using Fire or Ice attacks on CAP10 in the first place. Tracing Hippowdon's Sand Stream or Swampert's Torrent will not help at all when it comes to stopping setup sweepers.

Nice Strawman. Trace is different, not better. I equally enjoy reading the pro Intimidate posts because it's all "+1 CC! +2 CC! Scizor Bug Bite + Bullet Punch BAM! I didn't calc this but it sounds right!"

Does anyone else see the irony in this?

 

[petrie911]

Mamoswine haha. Your Surf can't 2HKO. Earthquake will ALWAYS kill you unless you run Intimidate, so even a Shuca berry won't save you against Mamoswine.

Did you run any calcs when making this statement? Seriously, here's the actual rundown of Mamoswine

156 SpA CaP10 Surf vs 0/0 Mamoswine: 318 - 374 (88.09% - 103.60%)

Well, look at that, 100% to OHKO after SR with Surf. And considering 87% of Mamoswine ran 0/0, I'd say a Shuca would save you. Of course, Filter and Intimidate both make this an easier switch-in, but it's by no means impossible.

People really need to run the calcs before making statements about how CaP10 performs.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Deck I like how your argument went from "well we don't need intimidate we have lolaquajet" to "sd infernape isn't common anyway so fuck you". Don't extrapolate current metagame trends to a metagame with CAP10 in it; if SD Ape is uncounterable by something that is shaping up to be the best general counter in the metagame, then people are damn well going to use it more. Sure you could run Choice Scarf, but that's just another argument for Intimidate, since without it you're not going to be able to switch into Close Combat from max ATK Jolly Infernape more than once, and since we're making "utility counter" and not "ultimate revenge killer" that's very bad. And feel free to completely ignore TTar and Dragonite guys, those probably aren't important.

 

[Rhys29]

And feel free to completely ignore TTar and Dragonite guys, those probably aren't important.

Tyranitar is taken ever so slightly better by Intimidate. And even with Intimidate you don't do jack shit to Choice sets who simply switch right out. And as for Dragonite:

Standard BulkyNite's +1 EQ vs. 252/252/4 CAP10: 286 - 338 (56.52% - 66.80%)
Standard BulkyNite's +1 EQ vs. 252/252/4 ShucaCAP10: 143 - 169 (28.26% - 33.40%)
LO DDNite's +1 EQ vs. 252/252/4 CAP10: 418 - 494 (82.61% - 97.63%)
LO DDNite's +1 EQ vs. 252/252/4 ShucaCAP10: 209 - 247 (41.30% - 48.81%)

Dragonite has to rely on SR in order to score a KO and it HAS to be offensive LO Dragonite and CAP10 can't use Shuca Berry. Bulky DDNite must have Outrage in order to 2HKO ShucaCAP10 and locking itself into Outrage with low attack investment is a terrible idea and it has to eat an Ice Beam as it opens up an easy switch for any Steel type. LO Offensive DDNite doesn't OHKO with Outrage even with SR down. To make sure you don't come back with "but it can't deal enough damage with Ice Beam!"

4 Sp.A CAP10's Ice Beam vs. Standard BulkyNite: 236 - 280 (62.27% - 73.88%)
4 Sp.A CAP10's Ice Beam vs. Standard LO DDNite: 236 - 280 (72.84% - 86.42%) (80% chance to OHKO with SR)

A turn of LO recoil, or any softening for that matter, will assure a OHKO on LO Dragonite with Ice Beam and SR down. BulkyNite is easily 2HKO'd and any sort of softening will assure this as well. A speedy Scarf set won't even have to worry about taking a hit so Dragonite is no issue. MixNite and ChoiceNite deal with Intimidate CAP10 just as well as Trace CAP10: they switch out after hitting you.

 

[Deck Knight]

Deck I like how your argument went from "well we don't need intimidate we have lolaquajet" to "sd infernape isn't common anyway so fuck you". Don't extrapolate current metagame trends to a metagame with CAP10 in it; if SD Ape is uncounterable by something that is shaping up to be the best general counter in the metagame, then people are damn well going to use it more. Sure you could run Choice Scarf, but that's just another argument for Intimidate, since without it you're not going to be able to switch into Close Combat from max ATK Jolly Infernape more than once, and since we're making "utility counter" and not "ultimate revenge killer" that's very bad. And feel free to completely ignore TTar and Dragonite guys, those probably aren't important.

You're right, I shouldn't make assumptions that a never-used set in OU is going to be used in a metagame that has yet another pokemon Infernape can never switch in on. And by the way, your argument has shifted from +2 Close Combat to Close Combat generally, which CAP10 most certainly can switch into. Nevermind your generally bad attitude and flippant "debate" style.

I also like how you keep pulling random pokemon into your posts that are slower to CAP 10 and weak to its STABs or 4x weaks to a highly likely coverage move, but that's neither here nor there. If you can't be respectful don't bother responding ( I mean in general for the remainder of this CAP, not just here).

 

[FlareBlitz]

First, Shuca Berry is only relevant if Nite decides not to just Outrage your ass into oblivion (which, if I were a Nite user, I would do upon seeing lack of lefties). Second, you state that Intimidate "helps just as much as Trace" when they just "switch out after hitting you", but it seems to me that taking 1.5x less from its physical attacks every time is a pretty big deal; in fact, with SR down, it's a huge deal because it means you can actually outstall it even if switches out every time.

Edit: Don't lecture me about respect when your rebuttals begin with a sarcastic "I didn't calc this but it sounds right!", Deck.

Anyway, given that the arguments for Trace generally amount to "well heatran can't hit us with fire attacks so that's good", I don't see why a dangerous but underused sweeper like SD Infernape would be irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[Scoopapa]

CAP10 can survive a +1 Outrage or Earthquake from Dragonite if it goes 252 HP / 252 Def +nature. The Earthquake has a decent chance to KO you with SR and lefties, though, while if you run Shuca you have a very very minute chance to be KO'ed by Outrage. I know everyone has been assuming CAP10 would always run speed, but the option is there.

Also, SD Ape may be irrelevant now but it probably wont be when CAP10 is on every team and SD is the only set that can beat it.

 

[Yllnath]

Just a simple reply to "Also, SD Ape may be irrelevant now but it probably wont be when CAP10 is on every team and SD is the only set that can beat it."
Are you implying infernape switches in to Cap10? That can't be right.. He's still weak to surf and even though nape is faster, his unboosted attacks are laughable against CAP10 and if he does boost up, he has already taken one STAB surf against his face in the turn he's Sword Dancing.

Infernape is not a counter to CAP10. He's scared to death of it and should not recklessly come in on it. Only if it's already in against something else, it has a good chance, but there are enough pokemon would could beat a rather defensively weak infernape and resist his +2 CC. Any ghost type come to mind, for one.

 

[Scoopapa]

Just a simple reply to "Also, SD Ape may be irrelevant now but it probably wont be when CAP10 is on every team and SD is the only set that can beat it."
Are you implying infernape switches in to Cap10? That can't be right.. He's still weak to surf and even though nape is faster, his unboosted attacks are laughable against CAP10 and if he does boost up, he has already taken one STAB surf against his face in the turn he's Sword Dancing.

Infernape is not a counter to CAP10. He's scared to death of it and should not recklessly come in on it. Only if it's already in against something else, it has a good chance, but there are enough pokemon would could beat a rather defensively weak infernape and resist his +2 CC. Any ghost type come to mind, for one.

....right. What I meant was "if it was the only set that wasn't countered by CAP10". I wasn't trying to say that Infernape could counter a random bulky water. C'mon, give me the benefit of the doubt here...

 

[Umbreon Dan]

I can't lock this thread, but this poll is closed. There should be no more discussion itt, regardless of how disappointed you may be with the result.

Trace is our primary ability. The Secondary Ability Discussion thread is up.

I would ask everybody not to post beyond this point until somebody locks it.