CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5c - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Umbreon Dan]

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Typing: Water/Electric
Stat Spread: 151/84/73/83/74/105
Primary Ability: Trace

Rules:

• No poll jumping. I for one am very glad that we're going to have to stop repeating this soon. At this point it's simply no discussion of movepools. This is important; movepool discussion was a recurring problem in the previous couple of threads.
  
  
• No threadhogging. This is an open discussion and should not devolve into a back-and-forth between two people.
  
  
• Don't get hung up on the same points. The discussion should remain fresh throughout the course of this thread, and you really shouldn't be posting the same arguments over and over.
  
  
• Don't suggest a custom ability without sufficiently backing it up in your post. Frankly, if a custom ability wasn't accepted into the primary ability poll, then we just don't see it as being a really interesting option for this CAP. It is extremely unlikely that we're going to accept it now.

The secondary ability poll will be a little less restrictive than the primary ability poll, so you can all expect maybe a few more options on the slate. What this means is that discussion of slightly more controversial abilities is now highly encouraged. What this doesn't mean is that we're going to accept anything you dream up. Don't suggest Shadow Tag (for example).

Try to enjoy yourselves.

 

[Rhys29]

I believe Magic Guard should be one of the considered abilities to have. Magic Guard makes sure CAP10 can switch in countless times against opponents without having to worry about SR/Spikes/TS/SS/Hail/etc. damage. With Toxic Orb it can switch into Breloom as long as TO has been activated and force it out with Ice Beam (as long as it hasn't put a Substitute up). It won't take confusion damage if hit by Machamp's Dynamic Punch (I believe this is correct). It can stall down things like Blissey so it won't have need of boosted offenses. Rotom's Burns only slow you down if your moveset is physical and if you're ment to counter Rotom it won't be. Just a few examples.

I think Magic Guard works extremely well as a second ability to cover a lot of things Trace cannot. However, at the same time, I can see how many would think Magic Guard a bit too good. I'm curious to see what others suggest.

 

[Skymin_Flower]

I believe Magic Guard should be one of the considered abilities to have. Magic Guard makes sure CAP10 can switch in countless times against opponents without having to worry about SR/Spikes/TS/SS/Hail/etc. damage. With Toxic Orb it can switch into Breloom as long as TO has been activated and force it out with Ice Beam (as long as it hasn't put a Substitute up). It won't take confusion damage if hit by Machamp's Dynamic Punch (I believe this is correct). It can stall down things like Blissey so it won't have need of boosted offenses. Rotom's Burns only slow you down if your moveset is physical and if you're ment to counter Rotom it won't be. Just a few examples.

I think Magic Guard works extremely well as a second ability to cover a lot of things Trace cannot.

Agreeing with this. I think this will provide a lot of versatility when it comes to countering status Pokemon in particular, and many things that Trace does not help with.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Magic Guard does nothing to combat the threats that Trace fails to cover. The only advantage Magic Guard has for switching into these threats is that it prevents the loss of life due to entry hazards. Even despite that, it fails to net any real advantage when switching into Infernape, Lucario, Tyranitar, Machamp, and so forth. It also doesn't help CAP10 if it is forced to switch into (at some late stage of the game) things like Breloom, Scizor, Mamoswine, Swampert, or what have you. With CAP10 not having Intimidate, these threats will always be immensely dangerous to CAP10.

Magic Guard is also dangerous because it can be used so effectively offensively. Thinking ahead without blatantly poll-jumping, many people have been wanting to put Volt Tackle on CAP10. This is completely out of the question if CAP10 gets Magic Guard, because then the recoil damage is nullified, forcing its strongest physical Electric attack to be Thunderpunch. Furthermore, Life Orb becomes immensely useful on CAP10 with Magic Guard because its recoil is nullified. I would always run LO on all CAP10 sets just on principle, even over Leftovers, if Magic Guard is present. This isn't even considering the immense defensive potential Magic Guard carries with immunity to weather effects and all residual damage in general. I don't really support it for these reasons.

I also recognize that many people do not support the use of custom abilities on CAP10, but Deck and I were discussing the other night (God forbid we agree on something..), and we both think that a custom ability might be valuable on CAP10 if it's of a specific nature. CAP10 doesn't like things like Toxic, Burn, Paralysis, or Sleep. These things are things that will incapacitate CAP10 once they are applied. Furthermore, being immune to one just isn't enough, especially with the diverse roles that CAP10 is being forced to assume. Natural Cure isn't enough to remedy this either, as CAP10 needs to be able to stay in without status in the first place, not simply lose it by fleeing from battle. Finally, Shield Dust simply isn't good enough to stop all status, as all it stops are the 'hax' status effects and not things like Will-O-Wisp, Spore, Toxic, or Thunder Wave.

With this all in mind, I am proposing a custom ability that acts as Status Immunity. CAP10 would be immune to poison, sleep, confusion, paralysis, burn, and freeze. This would allow it a reasonable level of tolerance for threats that serve to beat their counters by inflicting status (Rotom-A, Machamp, Gliscor, Zapdos, Togekiss, Toxic Heatran) and also permits it to be more useful at a later stage in a battle when it is forced to switch into things that rely on status as their primary mode of crippling opponents (Blissey, Breloom, Celebi, Jirachi, Snorlax' Body Slam). It also gives it a much-needed immunity to Toxic Spikes, which would otherwise completely demolish CAP10's ability to soft counter its targets. It also helps a lot to be immune to a stray freeze from Ice Beam, paralysis from Thunderbolt, or burn from Flamethrower/Fire Blast.

I am curious what the rest of you think of this suggestion, so don't hesitate to speak up!

 

[Matthew]

As by now you all should know my stance on custom abilities. Status Immunity is already given to us by a variety of other abilities that could work just as well. Poison Heal could be used with this CAP, with Toxic Orb we even have a very powerful status free pokemon. Natural Cure, while obviously only on the switch out greatly helps this CAP cure itself of Sleep moves, burn, or even paralysis. Shed Skin is another move which can save a pokemon of status as it gives it the option to lose it every turn (Revenankh has already shown us this). Immunity gives us a way around poison. Flash Fire gives us a way around Will-O-Wisp. Volt Absorb let's us around Thunder Wave. Early Bird makes sleep easier to deal with. Let's not forget things like Shield Dust which prevents us from secondary effects of most Electric-, Fire-, and Ice-type attacks. Which means we don't worry from switching into Thunderbolts or Ice Beams.

With a plethora of abilities must the first one we turn to always be one we create ourselves?

 

[PeanutFlipz]

I too, believe that Magic Guard would be overpowered. If you really think about it, which person in their right mind would put Trace over Magic Guard.

I like the idea of Status Immunity, but like with Magic Guard, I think that Trace will almost always be pushed aside in favour of this Ability. As an alternative I am suggesting Shed Skin, this acts in essentially the same way, but is not so overpowered that it will always be the superior option.

 

[Rhys29]

Magic Guard does nothing to combat the threats that Trace fails to cover. The only advantage Magic Guard has for switching into these threats is that it prevents the loss of life due to entry hazards. Even despite that, it fails to net any real advantage when switching into Infernape, Lucario, Tyranitar, Machamp, and so forth. It also doesn't help CAP10 if it is forced to switch into (at some late stage of the game) things like Breloom, Scizor, Mamoswine, Swampert, or what have you. With CAP10 not having Intimidate, these threats will always be immensely dangerous to CAP10.

I mentioned how Machamp and Breloom (forgot to mention no Leech Seed damage either) are generally easier to handle with Magic Guard. Mamoswine and Swampert have to deal with things like Magnet Rise (not poll jumping, it will be a necessity for these kind of mentionables). Infernape will fear CAP10 like it fears Vaporeon for the most part. Lucario is outrun and OHKO'd with any CB/CS SE hit. Tyranitar is a mentionable threat but immunity to Sand Storm damage was something you somehow overlooked.

Magic Guard is also dangerous because it can be used so effectively offensively. Thinking ahead without blatantly poll-jumping, many people have been wanting to put Volt Tackle on CAP10. This is completely out of the question if CAP10 gets Magic Guard, because then the recoil damage is nullified, forcing its strongest physical Electric attack to be Thunderpunch. Furthermore, Life Orb becomes immensely useful on CAP10 with Magic Guard because its recoil is nullified. I would always run LO on all CAP10 sets just on principle, even over Leftovers, if Magic Guard is present. This isn't even considering the immense defensive potential Magic Guard carries with immunity to weather effects and all residual damage in general. I don't really support it for these reasons.

I don't see how CAP10 could be much of an offensive threat even with no LO recoil. Investing heavily in Speed and an offense will take away a huge amount of it's survivability. And sweeping with base 84/83 offensive stats doesn't seem all that possible or even logical when you have excellent defensive options. Clefable is similar and it can go offensive so I can see your concern, it is simply a much milder concern to me.

Aren't we going for defensive potential? And isn't an immunity to weather effective vital if it is ever thinking about bringing down SS/Hail teams? I don't see much concern in this either.

With this all in mind, I am proposing a custom ability that acts as Status Immunity.

I'm curious as to how Magic Guard doesn't do this. It can freely absorb poison from TS, the actual move Toxic, or via item and proceed to absorb status the rest of the game. Not to mention all the threats you listed that Magic Guard doesn't help against have even less issue dealing with a different status immunity ability. The only ones I see are Breloom and possibly Machamp, and Breloom is taken on easily as long as a Toxic Orb CAP10 with Magic Guard has switched in once before (wouldn't be that hard tbh). The rest would have an easier time since CAP10 would still have to worry about SR or possibly SS damage (Tyranitar) building up. If status is really that big of an issue most sets would be glad to run Rest/Sleep Talk. Takes away their ability to deal with a lot of threats while giving it staying power against the ones that it is tailored for.

I'm not dead set on Magic Guard, in fact it's starting to waver in my mind as I'm not sure how many advantages Trace would have over Magic Guard, however I feel there should definitely be stronger arguments against it if any are to be made.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

With a plethora of abilities must the first one we turn to always be one we create ourselves?

I looked over every single one of those abilities, and they all have one thing in common: they combat only a single status. Being immune to poison isn't enough, as paralysis still neuters it entirely and the threat of burn completely rips it apart. Being immune to paralysis isn't enough either, since now Toxic Spikes rip us apart alongside the other mentioned things. The same goes for every other option you list, bar one. (Early Bird is terrible by the way, just go with Insomnia/Vital Spirit if you need to deal with Sleep, but I digress)

The only option worth noting from your list is Poison Heal, which I did consider. I don't really agree with obtaining double leftovers healing, though, which is in particular why I don't like it. It gives this thing too much flexibility in setting up substitutes repeatedly and just beating things up from behind them with its great STABs - especially given it's immense base 105 speed. For this reason, I feel that a status immunity with only Leftovers recovery is the best approach. It's also great to be able to switch into these status effects the first time, as before Toxic Orb activates you are still vulnerable. (Granted, that's only one turn, but still) Shed Skin was another ability I looked at, but the unreliability of shedding the status at the end of each turn is a huge turn off. This CAP, if anything, needs to be immune to the status from the get-go, otherwise its capacity to counter threats is significantly reduced until it gets lucky. Also, small side note, but Poison Heal fails to render CAP10 immune to confusion. (Which is only really useful against Machamp, and he's still a fair presence in OU)

There just simply isn't a pre-made ability that fits the bill for what CAP10 needs, if status is something we'd like to deal with. (And it most certainly is, considering how vulnerable CAP10 is to all of them)

I mentioned how Machamp and Breloom (forgot to mention no Leech Seed damage either) are generally easier to handle with Magic Guard. Mamoswine and Swampert have to deal with things like Magnet Rise (not poll jumping, it will be a necessity for these kind of mentionables). Infernape will fear CAP10 like it fears Starmie. Lucario is outrun and OHKO'd with any CB/CS SE hit. Tyranitar is a mentionable threat but immunity to Sand Storm damage was something you somehow overlooked.

Machamp still rips you apart with the STAB DynamicPunch. Furthermore, Magic Guard only prevents the self-damaging aspect of confusion, it doesn't stop the 50% chance for your turn to be in vain. That's a big deal. Also, Breloom is still going to Spore you and proceed to set up on you. (Or just slaughter you with Seed Bomb) Immunity to sandstorm damage is nice, but my other points against Magic Guard are simply too great to make it fair on CAP10 given the concept.

I don't see how CAP10 could be much of an offensive threat even with no LO recoil. Investing heavily in Speed and an offense will take away a huge amount of it's survivability.

You don't see it? Here, let me show you.

Some assorted damage calcs with a 252/252 SpA/Spe Modest set.
Keep in mind that you don't take entry hazard damage or passive damage.

252 Modest Life Orb Pokemon Thunderbolt  
  
  vs. 136/0 Timid Leftovers Starmie : 126.8% - 150.5%
  vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Suicune : 71.8% - 85.1%
  vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Suicune +1 : 49% - 57.9%
  vs. 188/0 Bold Leftovers Vaporeon : 76.3% - 90.2%
  vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Togekiss : 77.5% - 92%
  vs. 12/0 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 103.8% - 123.1%
  vs. 252/92 Calm Leftovers Empoleon : 72.6% - 85.5%
  vs. 252/252 Impish Leftovers Skarmory : 97% - 115%

252 Modest Life Orb Pokemon Surf  
  
  vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 57.2% - 68.2%
  vs. Naive Choice Scarf Heatran : 107.7% - 126.9%
  vs. 244/12 Calm Leftovers Heatran : 73.4% - 86.5%
  vs. 252/88 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 90.5% - 107.1%
  vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Gliscor : 116.9% - 137.9%
  vs. 252/0 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 44.1% - 52%
  vs. Naive Life Orb Infernape : 165.9% - 195.2%

Really? 2HKOing Swampert with a neutral attack? 2HKOing TTar with ease in a Sandstorm? OHKOing even Specially Defensive Skarmory with Thunderbolt? 2HKOing Suicune? OHKOing Togekiss after Rocks? These things alone aren't that bad, all things considered, since with LO you're shaving off chunks of your life and you're susceptible to passive damage. As long as that last point is true, CAP10 is inferior to other LO options, namely Starmie. As soon as you get rid of LO recoil, all passive damage, and all entry hazard damage, CAP10 becomes one of the most attractive options for sweeping available. I'd always use it over Starmie.

I'm curious as to how Magic Guard doesn't do this.

For the record, Magic Guard does not prevent the speed loss of paralysis, the attack reduction of burn, doesn't prevent sleep, and doesn't prevent the 50% chance to waste a turn from confusion.

 

[Vaz]

An ability in which would provide great usage and versitality yet is a bit contreversial is Magic Guard which will force the opponent to either attack this beast, use another move or switch. It is a great way to block status effects, entry hazards, weather effects and other annoying moves. It will give the opponent a harder time to defeat it also and will taek longer to remove.

 

[Seizen]

While Status Immunity seems needed, we already have Shed Skin. Which, while seems like a lesser ability, you must think: If you don't like Trace as your primary ability, you'll almost always choose Status Immunity as your secondary one, unless you specifically need Trace to counter whichever Pokemon CAP10 is going to take down. At least, that's how I see it.

Now, I don't know whether Shed Skin would take Status Immunity and make it too weak, but it seems as if this could end up being a way to appease the Trace-haters sooner rather than later.

Rather than Status Immunity, why not Marvel Scale? It raises Defence when we get status-induced, which, while not dealing with the status in quite the same way, we at very least get yet another boost for defences to mitigate the damage done. While Burn/Poison/ToxicPoison still threaten CAP10 severely, Sleep/Freeze/Paralyz are not so worrying. I know it's not as attractive, but it does deal with the same problem, just in a different manner.

 

[Objection]

Either:
Secondary ability only effective vs. mons not hurt by Trace

Or:
No second ability.

If CAP10 is always able to counter even one major OU threat (by major I mean top 20), then it's not fulfilling the concept. It might be a good idea to recap which pokemon Trace is effective against.

 

[Rhys29]

IMachamp still rips you apart with the STAB DynamicPunch. Furthermore, Magic Guard only prevents the self-damaging aspect of confusion, it doesn't stop the 50% chance for your turn to be in vain. That's a big deal. Also, Breloom is still going to Spore you and proceed to set up on you. (Or just slaughter you with Seed Bomb) Immunity to sandstorm damage is nice, but my other points against Magic Guard are simply too great to make it fair on CAP10 given the concept.

Machamp is debatable, a status immunity ability would deal with it better. Breloom can't Spore you if Toxic Orb has already activated. Status immunity doesn't help against Sub/Seed variants. Status immunity also makes you much less reliable against every other threat you mentioned. At this point you have yet to make a 'great' point against Magic Guard.

You don't see it? Here, let me show you.

Some assorted damage calcs with a 252/252 SpA/Spe Modest set.
Keep in mind that you don't take entry hazard damage or passive damage.
 
252 Modest Life Orb Pokemon Thunderbolt  
 
  vs. 136/0 Timid Leftovers Starmie : 126.8% - 150.5%
  vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Suicune : 71.8% - 85.1%
  vs. 252/0 Bold Leftovers Suicune +1 : 49% - 57.9%
  vs. 188/0 Bold Leftovers Vaporeon : 76.3% - 90.2%
  vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Togekiss : 77.5% - 92%
  vs. 12/0 Modest Petaya Berry Empoleon : 103.8% - 123.1%
  vs. 252/92 Calm Leftovers Empoleon : 72.6% - 85.5%
  vs. 252/252 Impish Leftovers Skarmory : 97% - 115%
 
252 Modest Life Orb Pokemon Surf  
 
  vs. 160/0 Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar : 57.2% - 68.2%
  vs. Naive Choice Scarf Heatran : 107.7% - 126.9%
  vs. 244/12 Calm Leftovers Heatran : 73.4% - 86.5%
  vs. 252/88 Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 90.5% - 107.1%
  vs. 252/0 Impish Leftovers Gliscor : 116.9% - 137.9%
  vs. 252/0 Relaxed Leftovers Swampert : 44.1% - 52%
  vs. Naive Life Orb Infernape : 165.9% - 195.2%

Really? 2HKOing Swampert with a neutral attack? 2HKOing TTar with ease in a Sandstorm? OHKOing even Specially Defensive Skarmory with Thunderbolt? 2HKOing Suicune? OHKOing Togekiss after Rocks? These things alone aren't that bad, all things considered, since with LO you're shaving off chunks of your life and you're susceptible to passive damage. As long as that last point is true, CAP10 is inferior to other LO options, namely Starmie. As soon as you get rid of LO recoil, all passive damage, and all entry hazard damage, CAP10 becomes one of the most attractive options for sweeping available. I'd always use it over Starmie.

Good, some calculations. I was waiting for someone to post them. However none of these are impressive to say the least. You show calcs against things that generally fear any poke using any of these attacks with LO and STAB. This does go to show it can possibly be offensive though Starmie and Zapdos would tend to do this better imo. It has an easier time with no LO recoil however both Starmie and Zapdos have reliable recovery to even things out. This is a much better point than anything you have said so far.

For the record, Magic Guard does not prevent the speed loss of paralysis, the attack reduction of burn, doesn't prevent sleep, and doesn't prevent the 50% chance to waste a turn from confusion.

Only if you don't have an item such as Toxic Orb and it hasn't been activated yet. Or you have yet to pick up a status before hand. I don't see anyone making these points about Clefable's ability to status absorb when played correctly. Magic Guard provides an easy way for CAP10 to absorb status while still being able to handle a variety of other threats that Trace would generally not help against.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Is it the case that since Intimidate "lost" the first poll, it's not an option for the secondary ability? If that's not the case, I support Intimidate, for reasons I've already gone over multiple times but will go over again on request.

If that is the case, there are a few other abilities I'd like to mention. One is Poison Heal. I see that a custom ability called "Status Immunity" has been suggested. Poison Heal is, for all intents and purposes, that ability, except it trades total status immunity all the time for one brief period of vulnerability (right before toxic orb activates) and susceptibility to Confusion for double leftovers recovery. The double leftovers recovery is vitally important without Intimidate, since it would allow CAP10 to shrug off hazard damage and Sandstorm easier, as well as buffering any hits it takes on the switch in from things like CBTar or random unboosted Earthquakes. The only concern is if the ability will end up being "too powerful"; I'm open to the idea that it might be, but it seems that it's a great option if we decide it's not from discussion.

Another one I like is Aftermath. Basically, this is insurance; if the thing that you're attempting to counter manages to survive your assault and kill you, you can at least guarantee that it'll go down with you or at least be severely weakened due to Aftermath. This doesn't do anything to encourage the "general wall" thing we're trying so hard to avoid, but its usefulness is debatable...although honestly, for a lot of threats, I'd prefer Aftermath to Trace.

 

[petrie911]

Once again, I throw Filter in as a suggestion. It still helps CaP10 switch in on those Ground attacks Trace doesn't cover, and more importantly it actually helps CaP10 against Metagross, whose Quake is a huge threat. Filter also has the advantage that it works on special moves, unlike Intimidate. Lastly, Filter's smaller defense boost prevents CaP10 from acting as too general a counter than Intimidate CaP10.

On a different tack, since people seem to be concerned about status as well as switching in on hard-hitting physical attacks, how about Marvel Scale? It seems to fit both bills, without having Magic Guard's offense issues.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

While Status Immunity seems needed, we already have Shed Skin. Which, while seems like a lesser ability, you must think: If you don't like Trace as your primary ability, you'll almost always choose Status Immunity as your secondary one, unless you specifically need Trace to counter whichever Pokemon CAP10 is going to take down. At least, that's how I see it.

Yes, somehow it makes sense that if your primary ability (Trace) isn't necessary to counter the threats you want to target with your CAP10, hopefully you will want to choose whatever the secondary ability is.

This is a much better point than anything you have said so far.

That was the point I was making. The thing hits as hard as LO Starmie and boasts STAB Thunderbolt, but it would no matter what. Starmie's faster so it's arguably better in that vein, but CAP10 is a hell of a lot bulkier. CAP10 still isn't attractive enough as a sweeper, though, but if you toss in no LO recoil, no entry hazard damage, and no residual damage of any sort, it becomes much better than Starmie.

I don't see anyone making these points about Clefable's ability to status absorb when played correctly.

Any Clefable set that runs physical attacks (Double Edge, etc.) hates burn and paralysis. Go read her analysis and see for yourself.

Only if you don't have an item such as Toxic Orb and it hasn't been activated yet.

I've already explained why I feel that Poison Heal isn't suitable, so I'm not going to clutter the topic with it further. After this post, I'm going to refrain from posting in it for awhile so as to not hog the thread. You should consider doing the same.

 

[Rhys29]

That was the point I was making. The thing hits as hard as LO Starmie and boasts STAB Thunderbolt, but it would no matter what. Starmie's faster so it's arguably better in that vein, but CAP10 is a hell of a lot bulkier. CAP10 still isn't attractive enough as a sweeper, though, but if you toss in no LO recoil, no entry hazard damage, and no residual damage of any sort, it becomes much better than Starmie.

The point? Odd because you attempted to make several but I guess you too saw them as nothing important. LO Starmie was listed for it's fast STAB Surf. However since CAP10 doesn't have Hydro Pump yet, LO Starmie hits much much harder. Being bulky makes you a better tank, not necessarily a better sweeper though the point is debatable. Comparing LO Starmie to LO Magic Guard CAP10 just shows Starmie can sweep better in basically the same situation. All of the Thunderbolt calcs show that Starmie can still OHKO some of those threats and 2HKO everything else even without STAB. Starmie is the better sweeper, CAP10 would be a better tank in this situation. Still it does stand that no LO recoil can help CAP10 go offensive even when others do it better.

Any Clefable set that runs physical attacks (Double Edge, etc.) hates burn and paralysis. Go read her analysis and see for yourself.

The only time I saw either Burn or Paralysis hindering it was on two offensive sets: Wall Breaker and BD sweeper. Both of these sets aren't based around Clefable absorbing status which was what I was going for. Any set that is defensive and utilizes Magic Guard's ability to absorb status doesn't give a crap about para or burn because it either doesn't matter if its Att drops or it is already statused to block these two statuses. Hell, two of them run Flame Orb. If Magic Guard CAP10 were to want to avoid Burn or Paralyze, it would just run Toxic Orb, as I have been saying this entire time. At the same time I see very few threats CAP10 will have to go physical for and its STABs clearly indicate it will be Special Attack based. This is, once again, a moot and poorly attempted point to make.

I've already explained why I feel that Poison Heal isn't suitable, so I'm not going to clutter the topic with it further.

At no point did I mention Poison Heal, though once again it does block status without us having to make a custom ability and it still has use beyond that. Helps CAP10 switch into SR continually since Poison Heal recovers as much as a neutral switch into SR in a turn.

I will refrain from posting. No more needs to be said on the matter.

 

[Deck Knight]

Well Rising Dusk beat me to it, but I wanted to expand on what it should do.

If we're going to use a custom ability we need to make sure it addresses threats that Trace doesn't.

With this all in mind, I am proposing a custom ability that acts as Status Immunity. CAP10 would be immune to poison, sleep, confusion, paralysis, burn, and freeze. This would allow it a reasonable level of tolerance for threats that serve to beat their counters by inflicting status (Rotom-A, Machamp, Gliscor, Zapdos, Togekiss, Toxic Heatran) and also permits it to be more useful at a later stage in a battle when it is forced to switch into things that rely on status as their primary mode of crippling opponents (Blissey, Breloom, Celebi, Jirachi, Snorlax' Body Slam). It also gives it a much-needed immunity to Toxic Spikes, which would otherwise completely demolish CAP10's ability to soft counter its targets. It also helps a lot to be immune to a stray freeze from Ice Beam, paralysis from Thunderbolt, or burn from Flamethrower/Fire Blast.

I would also add Leech Seed and Attract (rare/silly as it is) to this list. Effectively this trades Magic Guard's recoil trait for full status immunity. I still think Taunt and Torment should hit, but getting rid of Leech Seed takes away another of Brelooms options, generally leaving it with just Seed Bomb and Focus Punch. Leech Seed immunity is especially valuable given CAP10's huge HP. Adding Leech Seed to the things the custom ability addresses can also help curb the tide of theoretical Leech Seeding counters (SubSeed Sceptile returns?)

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

What Pokemon and/or effects don't Trace addresses? You already addresses status ailments through this custom ability idea of yours (although having it effect Taunt and Torment would be interesting), but what about the Pokemon that make having Trace seem useless?

Edit: Would making this Status Immunity ability block all passive damage minus recoil from Life Orb and/or recoil moves be too much?

 

[pokefan13]

I personally like the idea of having Marvel Scale, and if the CAP is equiped with a Lum Berry, then it gets the boost without the status (for the first time anyways).

 

[Bucky]

I'm going to suggest Adaptability for CAP10. Due to its typing, CAP10 will have a multitude of STAB attacks to chose from so why not equip it with an ability to make those attacks more powerful? Its base Attack & Sp. Attack stats could no doubt use the extra boost. CAP10 is supposed to be a customizable counter, and I think Adaptability would serve those who want their counter to be more offensively inclined.

I think the idea of Magic Guard is wonderful, depending on what each person's biggest threat to their team is. With Magic Guard, CAP10 would be an excellent counter to various Pokemon such as Milotic, Ludicolo, Alakazam, etc. My only worry is that most of the biggest threats in the OU metagame are physical attackers, but this ability still has my support.

 

[Str0ngbad]

I am interested in the 'no status ability' but I really don't see why it should block leech seed too. It feels like we are trying to get more out of an ability than we should and slapping an extra thing on imo. Not that it wouldn't help, just that I think it is too much.

I don't like Marvel Scale because of the wall-ish flavor of it. If you are simply targeting one pokemon that ability will not be very useful toward accomplishing that goal.

I like the passive damage immunity of Magic Guard but I too think it encourages people to make Cap10 more of an offensive threat than we want and also that it would almost always make Trace a worthless choice. Poison Heal falls in a similar vein in regards to being too useful but leaning towards a wall rather than wall-breaker.

Looking at Solid Rock (I'd rather call it that just to mess with people) again I do not think it makes CAP10 too bulky after all. I am still undecided as to whether it would be the best secondary ability but it is surely worth talking about a little bit more.

 

[Wind Kutone]

I think

CAP 10 should get an ability that gives the opponent -1 speed, thus it becomes faster then choice scarfed what nots.

But then again the status block does sound pretty nice. It would allow it to not only counter offensive threats but to counter defensive threats too. So i think ill just go for the no status idea.

 

[LoZDestroyer]

I like the idea of the custom Status Immunity ability with Deck Knight's proposed additions, as it aids in taking down things that are otherwise generally unphased by Trace, such as Breloom.

I do NOT like the idea of something such as Adaptability as such a thing would encourage sets somewhat like Surf/T-Bolt/Coverage/Coverage or Recovery, which would hit with greater power from a pair of moves with great coverage than it would without it and instead with Life Orb. While it would not affect anything other than Water and Electric moves, those two types synergize quite well and hit many things. Hitting them harder from decent offensive stats seems to encourage offense rather than defense.

Note: Adaptability Surf/T-Bolt/What have you is 1x effective versus single resists. (2x from STAB times 0.5x from resist) This means you're essentially giving it a two-type Tinted Lens to anything that isn't outright immune or double resisting. Ground types can't exactly come in to absorb an Electric attack and expect to stick around for the Surf, except for Gastrodon. CAP10 doesn't suck at offense, so such a thing is not, in my opinion, usable for the concept as it has far too much potential for outright assault versus countering.

 

[Deck Knight]

I am interested in the 'no status ability' but I really don't see why it should block leech seed too. It feels like we are trying to get more out of an ability than we should and slapping an extra thing on imo. Not that it wouldn't help, just that I think it is too much.

I don't like Marvel Scale because of the wall-ish flavor of it. If you are simply targeting one pokemon that ability will not be very useful toward accomplishing that goal.

I like the passive damage immunity of Magic Guard but I too think it encourages people to make Cap10 more of an offensive threat than we want and also that it would almost always make Trace a worthless choice. Poison Heal falls in a similar vein in regards to being too useful but leaning towards a wall rather than wall-breaker.

Looking at Solid Rock (I'd rather call it that just to mess with people) again I do not think it makes CAP10 too bulky after all. I am still undecided as to whether it would be the best secondary ability but it is surely worth talking about a little bit more.

The idea behind anti-Status ability with the additions is to provide the versatility equivalent to something like Magic Guard, but without the enabling of things like recoil-less Volt Tackle or no-drawback Life Orb boost. Magic Guard is kind of like Intimidate was in that it does a bit too much all at once. What we'd want to do is take the positive aspects of Magic Guard that are relevant (no Poison, Burn, or Full Paralysis) and extend them while reducing those overpowered aspects (no recoil or LO recoil, weather immune, hazard immune) that make it too much.

Basically no Status ability is shooting for a Magic Guard-esque level of protection but tailored more towards a utility counter's aims. Essentially it'd be an auto-Safeguard + Leech Seed and Attract. This would allow it to foil many otherwise productive indirect damage strategies.

Although since Rising Dusk stole my thunder, here's a different custom ability:

Substitute Bypass: This Pokemon's Attacks ignore an opponent's Substitute.

Naturally this ability is worthless if your opponent isn't using Substitute on their set, but it is a way to get around things like Brelooms that always Sub first instead of Spore, Or any of the various oddities like SUbtran and SubChamp.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

What we'd want to do is take the positive aspects of Magic Guard that are relevant (no Poison, Burn, or Full Paralysis) and extend them while reducing those overpowered aspects (no recoil or LO recoil, weather immune, hazard immune) that make it too much.

Wait...how is hazard and weather immunity overpowered? I understand that [LO] recoil would be too much for CAP10, but wouldn't CAP10 like to have that kind of immunity as well as immunity to Status aliments?