CAP 10 Cap 10 - Part 5d - Secondary Ability Poll

[Umbreon Dan]

Vote on the secondary ability

Options:

Filter/Solid Rock
Intimidate
Magic Guard
Poison Heal

We will not allow posts in this topic such as "I voted Beej is a penis". Put some substance into your post.

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Typing: Water/Electric
Stat Spread: 151/84/73/83/74/105
Primary Ability: Trace

For the record, Natural Cure wasn't allowed because it's really just a worse version of Poison Heal or Magic Guard...

 

[familyguyman]

I wouldn't have minded Natural Cure as I find both Magic Guard and Poison Heal a bit overwhelming. That being said, Magic Guard is just too much IMO. CAP10 does need to be able to die somehow, Magic Guard makes it very hard to do thanks to it blocking Stealth Rocks and Spikes and the like. Poison Heal is in a similar vein but it totally locks the item slot to Toxic Orb. No Focus Sash or Life Orb or pinch berries. It also doesn't stop passive damage but it can help recover the damage done over time.

Filter would never get used over Trace as far as I can see and Intimidate is, again, to general and now redundant for my liking.


For the record I voted Poison Heal.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

As has been mentioned beforehand, status is likely to be a problem to this CAP. Therefore, something that uses status to our advantage (ie. Poison Heal) is likely to be the best choice, hence why I voted for it.

 

[SJCrew]

Poison Heal isn't going to help CAP switch into status, though, which is my main issue with it. If Breloom comes in for the Spore, something's going to have to take the fall. Poison Heal on something besides Breloom sounds cool, but I'm really not seeing the practicality.

I've gone over my reasoning for Intimidate plenty and I don't think it needs further elaboration. CAP really needs the help countering the Pokemon it needs to in such a physically dominant metagame.

 

[petrie911]

I reiterate my vote for Filter. It gives CaP10 the necessary bulk against certain key threats that Trace doesn't help against (Metagross, Heatran*, Gliscor, Mamoswine, etc), without giving too much.

Poison Heal would probably be my second choice, though I think 12.5% healing per turn and status immunity might be a bit much.

*Anyone who says Trace helps against Heatran needs to actually think. Earth Power is Heatran's real threat, not a resisted Fire Blast.

 

[BulbasaurSOLAR]

I believe that poison heal and magic gaurd are overpowered and nobody would use trace if these were a choice for an ability. For the most part trace covers intimidate so I voted Filter. It looks like the extreme recovery from poison heal is in the lead which I believe will make this pokemon a lot more than a utility counter.

 

[rippersteveM5]

I voted Intimidate again, but i would not mind either Filter/Solid Rock or Poison Heal winning, as they both take this CAP in positive directions.

I am however strongly against Magic Guard as an ability, I believe a pokemon with decent attacking stats and defences will be almost broken with an ability such as this imo.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Voted for Intimidate. It's simply the best way for CAP10 to deal with certain extremely powerful physical threats, which currently cause it significant problems. Although I would be happy with Poison Heal, since the double leftovers helps a bit in that regard as well, and the status immunity is nice too.

 

[Vaz]

For the secondary ability for the pokemon of CAP10, I will be voting for Poison Heal. Poison Heal provides many various useful effects which greatly enhance the time in which it will last for and how many pokemon it will be able to KO.


With Poison Heal as its secondary ability, it will be able to receive a considerably larger amount of HP compared to if it just had Leftovers and no Poison Heal. Leftovers heals around 6% of its HP whether with Poison Heal from a Toxic Orb, it will heal around 12% of its HP which is double the amount it would regularly receive. With this, it is able to endure many hits that the opponent may throw at it.

This ability is also very helpful when faced against a pokemon that would cause a status allignment. Toxic Orb kicks in after one turn of being in play. This prevents many pokemon from "crippling" it and preventing it from proceeding in its duty as a Utility Counter. It can no longer be Badly Poisoned by the many pokemon that posses this move, become burned by many pokemon which would halve its attack and paralyzing it to destroy its speed and fully remove the name Utility Counter from its head.

Lastly, having this ability will prevent Toxic Spikes form Poisoning/Badly Poisoning it. As explained, getting poisoned is not good, and is very annoying.

(Despite what I said in the other thread) Magic Guard is too powerful for many reasons. It prevents it from taking many various damages it would normally receive such as entry hazards, weather and Life Orb damage which would suggest to people that it is a sweeper WHICH IS NOT WHAT WE WANT.

Filter is not all that great because it will become not all that powerful with it as it is only primarily blocking it from Earthquake which can be easily avoided as it will be faster than Salamence (excluding after +Speed) and it can also easily switch to another pokemon such as a Levitator.

Intimidate would have been a great Primary Ability, but with Trace up its sleeves it does not go all too well with it, as Intimadate is not all that contrevercial whether this ability is.

The only con about having this ability though is trying to switch this pokemon into pokemon that would use a status allignment such as a Rotom with Will-o-Wisp or a Breloom with Spore.

All in all, having Poison Heal will greatly influence the it will stand in battle.

 

[beej]

Voted for Poison Heal. In addition to dealing with status users, it also provides a way to take less damage from many attacks on a regular basis thanks to the additional healing. I would say that this compliments Trace pretty well, due to being multi-faceted, whereas the other abilities are more specific in what they focus on.

 

[scampy]

Filter/Solid Rock: Reducing two weaknesses by 1/4 is not so hot, pass.

Intimidate: Not a fan, anti-Intimidate arguments have been done to death so I'm not going to repeat what others have said a hundred times beforehand

Magic Guard: The offensive capabilities of Magic Guard are being seriously overestimated imo, but I dislike this ability because it doesn't really mesh well will the concept outside of making CAP10 harder to kill. At least Poison Heal allows you to counter status and whatnot.

Poison Heal: Being able to switch into status is pretty cool, but it assumes that CAP10 was already in play beforehand in order for Toxic Orb to have already activated. It's also a rather neat way to combat Trick users (minus Jirachi). I guess it's the best choice out of the bunch, so it gets my vote.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Poison Heal: Being able to switch into status is pretty cool, but it assumes that CAP10 was already in play beforehand in order for Toxic Orb to have already activated. It's also a rather neat way to combat Trick users (minus Jirachi). I guess it's the best choice out of the bunch, so it gets my vote.

As far as I know Toxic Orb still poisons steel types...

My pick was Magic Guard. I think it's easily the best way to keep CAP10 from being done over by stall teams, which have pokemon that CAP10 could be designed to counter (I.E. Skarmory, Hippowdon, Blissey).

 

[pokefan13]

Poison Heal allows it to be switched into Toxic Spikes with ease and will also keep it staying as a Utility Counter after Toxic Orb is activated, hence why it was my choice.

 

[black_cotton]

okay thats probably a little to late but here is my opinion to NOT SUPPORT POISON HEAL:
First i do not want to poll jump or anything but lets assume poison heal winning and becoming the 2º ability... and lets given CAP the following moveset: substitute,protect,toxic and a filler move(taunt, or stab eletric or water moves).
With its defensive status it would probably stall almost all the metagame; and lets put double recovery into account... oh.

Thats not a far impossible scenario seeing the distribution of the moves that i listed(toxic, protect and substitute.)

Some of you may argument that this can be countered by taunt/ trick users right?
Right and Wrong, because we are forgetting the 105 speed which would make it outspeed almost the entirely metagame allowing CAP taunt them BEFORE they taunt you (excluding UBERS).

This are the taunt users that we DO NOT outspeed regardless nature and EV:
OU- Weaville, infernape,gengar,azelf aerodactyl
UU, NU AND BL-Alakazam,ambipom,crobat,Electrode,floatzel, froslass, mismagius ,persian and purugly.

Great, only 5 carry super effective moves, 2 are immune to poison but none is immune to either eletric or water, and just one resists eletric, and another 1 resists water. Also the majority are seem as a lead and Cap would not switch until they have fainted.

Now lets take a look at the TRICK users that we do not outspeed by no means:
OU- Azelf, gengar,latias, starmie.
UU,NU-Mismagius,froslass,espeon,alakazam.

Incredible, that means that depending of the move we choose in the 4º slot we can stall to death a great portion of the metagame while restore health even with the weather; Wait... what? thats to far fro the concept im my opinion.

Thats why POISON HEAL is kinda broken, so i will again SUPPORT MAGIC GUARD , because taking into account everything that had been discussed the pros are more better then the cons.
Thats my opinion.

Edit: PurpurealSunshine: Point taken, it would be necessary something with a 60 base max speed and scarf to outspeed cap 10 with max speed and positive nature.

 

[viol and bass]

Black cotton, unless I'm mistaken the most common item that would be tricked is choice scarf, which, of course, boosts speed. So plenty of other things could outspeed CAP10 and trick it a scarf.

 

[Little Battler]

well, I'm kinda undecided between poison heal and magic guard

POISON HEAL will give it lots of healing each turn, allowing it to be a wall and counter lots of offensive threats. Perhaps we should throw leech seed into the movepool and sub up, leech seed, kill any counter they try to bring in with TBolt / Surf. Or even better, focus punch (well, taking STAB into account... there's only 15 difference in base power). Sounds fun eh?

MAGIC GUARD will allow it to abuse life orb and / or volt tackle (since I doubt volt tackle will make its way into the movepool if magic guard got chosen) to break through walls with ease, allowing it to counter defensive threats easily, not to mention that it would make it an absurdly powerful sweeper...

 

[Cooky]

I voted beej is a penis.

I also voted poison heal for the following reason:

The 12.5% recovery it provides it changes the following 2HKO's into 3HKO's given these stats 446 HP / 204 Atk / 245 Def / 209 SpA / 184 SDef / 300 Spe (assuming +ve nature from the attacker):

• Salamence's Outrage: 47-56% 2HKO with SR now a 3HKO on average (with life orb it still 2HKO's with SR).
  
• Salamence/Metagross/Tyranitar Earthquake: 53-62% has a chance not to 2HKO without SR.
  
• Machamp/Breloom Close Combat/Superpower: 46-55% now doesn't 2HKO with SR
  
• Heracross Close Combat: 45-53%/Megahorn: 45-53% now doesn't 2HKO with SR
  
• Gyarados's Earthquake: 50-59% now doesn't 2HKO without SR
  
• Magnezone's Thunderbolt: 49-57% now doesn't 2HKO without SR
  
• Heatran/Gengar/Magnezone Hidden Power SE: 47-57% now doesn't 2HKO without SR

Bearing in mind these are all calculated with positive natures which is often not the case its safe to say the poison heal recovery will allow CAP 10 to outstall these mons if it gets recovery or to 2HKO them in return due to the superior speed it posesses against the majority of the aforementioned pokemon.

Given that the loose definition of a counter is something that can switch in, take a hit and pose an immediate threat I believe CAP 10 should not be 2HKO'd by the threats it should be countering.

Intimidate only applies to the physical spectum in terms of damage mitigation, magic guard I find overwhelming as spikes will be the largest deterrent to CAP 10, and filter doesn't apply to non super effective attacks.

Status is obviously a bitch as has been said previously so that's another plus for poison heal.

(Thanks Deck Knight for the calcs im lazy)

 

[AlphaBravo]

okay thats probably a little to late but here is my opinion to NOT SUPPORT POISON HEAL:
First i do not want to poll jump or anything but lets assume poison heal winning and becoming the 2º ability... and lets given CAP the following moveset: substitute,protect,toxic and a filler move(taunt, or stab eletric or water moves).
With its defensive status it would probably stall almost all the metagame; and lets put double recovery into account... oh.

Thats not a far impossible scenario seeing the distribution of the moves that i listed(toxic, protect and substitute.)

Some of you may argument that this can be countered by taunt/ trick users right?
Right and Wrong, because we are forgetting the 105 speed which would make it outspeed almost the entirely metagame allowing CAP taunt them BEFORE they taunt you (excluding UBERS).

This are the taunt users that we DO NOT outspeed regardless nature and EV:
OU- Weaville, infernape,gengar,azelf aerodactyl
UU, NU AND BL-Alakazam,ambipom,crobat,Electrode,floatzel, froslass, mismagius ,persian and purugly.

Great, only 5 carry super effective moves, 2 are immune to poison but none is immune to either eletric or water, and just one resists eletric, and another 1 resists water. Also the majority are seem as a lead and Cap would not switch until they have fainted.

Now lets take a look at the TRICK users that we do not outspeed by no means:
OU- Azelf, gengar,latias, starmie.
UU,NU-Mismagius,froslass,espeon,alakazam.

Incredible, that means that depending of the move we choose in the 4º slot we can stall to death a great portion of the metagame while restore health even with the weather; Wait... what? thats to far fro the concept im my opinion.

Thats why POISON HEAL is kinda broken, so i will again SUPPORT MAGIC GUARD , because taking into account everything that had been discussed the pros are more better then the cons.
Thats my opinion.

Edit: PurpurealSunshine: Point taken, it would be necessary something with a 60 base max speed and scarf to outspeed cap 10 with max speed and positive nature.

Hello Black Cotton.

For the "Poison Heal stall problem":
As PurpurealSunshine said, most Trickers can outspeed you - I never met a Scarfer below 340 Speed. In addition:
- The omnipresent Tyranitar lowers your healing to 12.5%/cycle
- You can't hurt anything Steel-type without resorting to move #4.

 

[black_cotton]

Hello Black Cotton.

For the "Poison Heal stall problem":
As PurpurealSunshine said, most Trickers can outspeed you - I never met a Scarfer below 340 Speed. In addition:
- The omnipresent Tyranitar lowers your healing to 12.5%/cycle
- You can't hurt anything Steel-type without resorting to move #4.

I guess i did not express myself clearly in my edit i was agreeing with PurpurealSunshine i saying that every scarf with 60 base speed or more would outspeed the Cap10.

Now lets take COOKY post and the calcs. that he showed meaning that a earthquake tyranitar is a 2HKO and with the sub,protect, toxic and the POISON HEAL RECOVERY cycle how it would not stall even tyranitar?

 

[Cooky]

Now lets take COOKY post and the calcs. that he showed meaning that a earthquake tyranitar is a 2HKO and with the sub,protect, toxic and the POISON HEAL RECOVERY cycle how it would not stall even tyranitar?

No I meant if CAP 10 gets instant recovery (I said if I'm not poll jumping quite yet) it could stall with its higher speed and recovery for more health until it is in a better position to retaliate.

I didn't reference sub stalling, because if poison heal does indeed lead down that route (as I fear it might) then that would detract from the original purpose of countering. I doubt that that would be its most effective set, it sounds like absolute set up bait.

 

[Bamce]

Hmm, unfortunately I'm late to the party.

I feel poison heal takes far to much out of the equation when dealing with cap10. The most reliable answer to walls is toxic. Now we are removing that. As well as removing sleep, freeze, para, burn. This almost guarantees the use of toxic orb. This also almost always guarantees the use of this ability over trace.

Removing burn also removes the attack drop. This may become more relevant as move pool is worked on.

!05 base speed is quite fast. Looking at other walls/defensive pokes
Blissy, 55
skamory 70
rotom-f 86
spirittomb 35
dusknoir 45

Paralysis may not hamper these more traditional defensive pokes. However it is a real threat to cap10 with 105 speed.

Of the options listed I would pick a magic guard. It gives the same net healing as poison heal+sandstorm while still leaving cap10 vulnerable to the secondary effects of the other major status.


I would have loved to see unaware make the list of options. Would help immensely in countering stat upers. Able to come in on a mence or gara after a dragon dance. As well as helping against swords danced anything.

 

[black_cotton]

No I meant if CAP 10 gets instant recovery (I said if I'm not poll jumping quite yet) it could stall with its higher speed and recovery for more health until it is in a better position to retaliate.

I didn't reference sub stalling, because if poison heal does indeed lead down that route (as I fear it might) then that would detract from the original purpose of countering. I doubt that that would be its most effective set, it sounds like absolute set up bait.

I see now... i get your points.
Now to the set up bait position it depends of the 4º moveslot (see taunt as a example).
And right now i'm guessing we should stop with this topic because we're making projectures of a moveset that doesn't even exist yet lol, or even poll jumping. So i will stop by now, i just wanted to show that this would be a valid route seeing the general state of things.

 

[Mattman324]

I voted beej is a penis.

I also voted poison heal for the following reason:

The 12.5% recovery it provides it changes the following 2HKO's into 3HKO's given these stats 446 HP / 204 Atk / 245 Def / 209 SpA / 184 SDef / 300 Spe (assuming +ve nature from the attacker):

• Salamence's Outrage: 47-56% 2HKO with SR now a 3HKO on average (with life orb it still 2HKO's with SR).
  
• Salamence/Metagross/Tyranitar Earthquake: 53-62% has a chance not to 2HKO without SR.
  
• Machamp/Breloom Close Combat/Superpower: 46-55% now doesn't 2HKO with SR
  
• Heracross Close Combat: 45-53%/Megahorn: 45-53% now doesn't 2HKO with SR
  
• Gyarados's Earthquake: 50-59% now doesn't 2HKO without SR
  
• Magnezone's Thunderbolt: 49-57% now doesn't 2HKO without SR
  
• Heatran/Gengar/Magnezone Hidden Power SE: 47-57% now doesn't 2HKO without SR

Bearing in mind these are all calculated with positive natures which is often not the case its safe to say the poison heal recovery will allow CAP 10 to outstall these mons if it gets recovery or to 2HKO them in return due to the superior speed it posesses against the majority of the aforementioned pokemon.

Given that the loose definition of a counter is something that can switch in, take a hit and pose an immediate threat I believe CAP 10 should not be 2HKO'd by the threats it should be countering.

Intimidate only applies to the physical spectum in terms of damage mitigation, magic guard I find overwhelming as spikes will be the largest deterrent to CAP 10, and filter doesn't apply to non super effective attacks.

Status is obviously a bitch as has been said previously so that's another plus for poison heal.

(Thanks Deck Knight for the calcs im lazy)

...wouldn't Heatran be using Earth Power, which is 10 base power more than HP? Because if so, it now 2hkos you, expecially because on switchin 1 you're either:

A: Switching in right then. Heatran won't predict you, and will fire off a safe FB... maybe.

B: Switching in on a SMART player who tries to counter something, like other Heatran or such, that switches in on it, and hits you (For an instant 2hko) on the switch, forcing out CAP10.

C: You've switched in before, and while the Toxic orb is on, you've likely recieved damage. Thus it can probubly 2hko you anyway.

D: Stealth Rock is up and you're fucked no matter what.


Anyway, going to vote for Filter. Sure, we won't really worry about the grass weakness, but that means a LOT will try to hit him with ground attacks. Lowering damage from EQ (And the occasional HP Grass or Energy ball, since this thing should be pretty light.) by a third can help sometimes, unless I'm horribly wrong here and misjudging the strength of the move. 100 base power off of some of the higher attack stats in the game HURTS even when you are not weak to it. Infact, the power is compairable to... actually, it's MORE POWERFUL THAN SCIZOR'S BULLET PUNCH (on a neutral hit, not on CAP10.)

 

[Cooky]

...wouldn't Heatran be using Earth Power, which is 10 base power more than HP? Because if so, it now 2hkos you, expecially because on switchin 1 you're either:

A: Switching in right then. Heatran won't predict you, and will fire off a safe FB... maybe.

B: Switching in on a SMART player who tries to counter something, like other Heatran or such, that switches in on it, and hits you (For an instant 2hko) on the switch, forcing out CAP10.

C: You've switched in before, and while the Toxic orb is on, you've likely recieved damage. Thus it can probubly 2hko you anyway.

D: Stealth Rock is up and you're fucked no matter what.

You're right about heatran earth power is a straight 2HKO (although this is only relevant if said heatran is scarfed due to CAP 10's higher speed and stab surf, also a choiced ground move is noted set up bait), but the other comments are highly situational. Obviously if its recieved prior damage it can't counter effectively but the same can be said of any defensive 'mon.

Yeah I agree on the SR comment though it does dick on CAP 10's countering ability, maybe a more effective EV spread than 12 HP / 252 Def/28 SA/216 Spe could be created with regard to utilising poison heal better.

 

[Objection]

Why Objection objects to Magic Guard:

Magic Guard = no Life Orb damage.
No Life Orb damage = free boost to attack and special attack.
Free boost to attack and special attack = generic sweeper.
Generic sweeper =/= concept.
Not concept = bad.

Therefore, Magic Guard = bad.

Why Objection objects to Intimidate:

This Venn diagram illustrates how abilities are part of the concept.

Intimidate violates this by having a not insignificant overlap of Salamence and Gyarados.