CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Poll 2

What should be CAP 10's stat spread?


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beej

everybody walk the dinosaur
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  • We will not allow posts in this topic such as "I voted stat spread." Put some substance into your post.
You know the drill by now. Vote for whichever spread you think will best fulfill the concept.
Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?
Typing: Water/Electric

Overview of the spreads:

Deck Knight said:
Final Submission:

151/84/73/83/74/105. BST: 570

Physical Sweepiness: 149 (Rank 5, Good)
Physical Tankiness: 174 (Rank 6, Very Good)
Special Sweepiness: 149 (Rank 5, Good)
Special Tankiness: 174 (Rank 6, Very Good)
ODB: -4.34 Slight Bias to Defense
PSB: 0.14 Slight Bias to Physical
Overall Rating: 361 (Rank 7: Excellent)

HP:
High HP maximizes the effect of EV's spent on one of the defenses. This is especially vital for Utility Counter because its defensive prowess is now directly linked to defensive investment. The simple truth is that there is no way to increase a Pokemon's HP by 10%, so the best way to encourage and optimize wise EV investment is by having High HP and lowish defenses. Blissey is the extreme example that illustrates this perfectly. EVs and Nature together will never let you raise a Pokemon's stat by more than 70 + [Original Stat/10] points. Therefore the lower the initial stat the higher your defensive prowess goes up by adding those points. Blissey's Defensive ability more than doubles with 252 Defense EVs and Nature, Shuckle's is barely touched.

Speed:

Speed may be factored into Sweepiness stats but it is crucial here for defensive purposes. Consistently outspeeding Base 100 Pokemon without a speed nature allows it to run a positive Def/SpD boosting nature (or Atk/SA). Thus CAP10 would only have to face one attack each time it switches in rather than two if it were slower. Additionally it will receive 10% less damage than if it needed a speed boosting nature to avoid a second attack. Since many of OU's Top threats are unwallable through any reasonable means, avoiding a second attack is your best chance for reliably countering them. Fidgit used this trait (and indeed, same Base Speed) with Encore to excellent effect. Essentially I want to optimize the perceived threat level. The actual level of threat depends entirely on the spread and the set. 105 Speed accomplishes this by turning Speed into a viable defensive mechanism.

Attack and Special Attack: These values are the maximum allowed for a Rank 5 Sweepiness stat. They will require some investment in order to net KO's, but a diverse movepool will allow CAP10 to thrive with lesser stats. When I worked out the calculations combined with Speed I found them sufficient. Any more speed looked like it would undermine capacity to threaten, and any less would remove the advantages 105 Speed brings with it.

With no investment, Ice Beam deals 94-111% to Naive DDMence. 40 EV's guarantees a OHKO. CAP10 could run a set with 12 HP / 252 Def/28 SA/216 Spe and Timid, with Leftovers. The Nature of Mence doesn't really matter as DDMence is going to eat 10% of it's health if it attacks you after DD.

Final Stats (assume neutral nature):

446 HP / 204 Atk / 245 Def / 209 SpA / 184 Def / 300 Spe.

Code:
[B][U]Offensive Calculations[/U][/B]

Offense Multiply damage by: 
0.9 for Negative Nature
1.1 for Positive Nature
1.3 for Life Orb
1.5 For Choice Item (physical attacks)

When calculating boosts:

+Nature: 91% = OHKO, 50% = 2HKO
+1/Choice Band/Specs: 67%+ = OHKO, 36%+ = 2HKO
Life Orb: 77% + = OHKO, 42%+ = 2HKO
Expert Belt/Type Plate:  84%+ = OHKO , 45%+ = 2HKO

[B]Waterfall:[/B]

371 HP / 297 Def (w Solid Rock) RP Rhyperior:
48-58% Reliable 2HKO

381 HP / 256 Def CBTar:
36-43%

385 HP / 248 Def Restalk Tran:
37-44%

323 HP / 248 Def Scarftran:
44-52% 2HKO with SR

420 HP / 345 Def Hippowdon:
24-29%

354 HP / 325 Def Defensive Gliscor:
31-37%

401 HP / 297 Def Restalk Swampert:
15-18%

[B]Surf:[/B]

371 HP / 146 SpD (Solid Rock) RP Rhyperior:
118-140% OHKO (80-94% in SS).

381 HP / 236 SpD CBTar (in SS):
32-38% 3HKO

385 HP / 299 SpD Restalk Tran:
37-44% 3HKO

323 HP / 224 SpD Scarftran:
59-70% 2HKO.

420 HP / 202 SpD Standard Hippowdon:
51-60% reliable 2HKO

354 HP / 186 SpD Defensive Gliscor:
65-77% 2HKO

401 HP / 216 SpD Restalk Swampert:
25-30%

281 HP / 194 SpD Steel Killer Magnezone:
38-46%

[B]Thunderbolt:[/B]

331 HP / 236 SpD Offensive DDGyarados:
110-130% OHKO

295 HP / 206 SpD Spinner Starmie:
70-83% 2HKO

315 HP / 238 SpD Agility Emploleon:
57-68% 2HKO

448 HP / 226 SpD Wish Vaporeon:
42-50%

364 HP / 341 SpD Toxic Spiker Tentacruel:
34-41%

334 HP / 176 SpD Spiker Skarmory:
72-86% 2HKO 

401 HP / 255 SpD Wish Support Jirachi:
21-25%.

331 HP / 176 SpD DDMence:
36-43%

[B]Earthquake:[/B]

364 HP / 299 Def CB Metagross:
27-32%

404 HP / 236 Def SubCM Jirachi:
30-36%

382 HP / 256 Def CB Tyranitar:
29-35%

282 HP / 176 Def Standard Lucario:
59-70% 2HKO

364 HP / 196 Def Toxic Spiker Tentacruel
41-48%

385 HP / 248 Def Restalk Heatran:
62-73% 2HKO

401 HP / 303 Def Wish Support Jirachi:
25-29%

281 HP / 266 Def Steel Killer Magnezone:
80-94% 2HKO

[B]Superpower:[/B]

381 HP / 256 Def CBTar:
72-86% 2HKO

281 HP / 177 Def Standard Lucario:
71-84% 2HKO

281 HP / 266 Def Steel Killer Magnezone:
48-56%

[B]Ice Beam:[/B]

331/196 SpD Standard Salamence
98-116% 87% OHKO

420 HP / 202 SpD Standard Hippowdon:
34-40%

343/186 SpD Defensive Gliscor
89-106% OHKO with SR.

383 HP / 216 SpD Physically Defensive Zapdos
35-41% Shaky 2HKO with SR.

322 / 216 SpD Offensive Zapdos:
41-49% 2HKO with SR.

404 HP / 236 SpD Defensive Celebi:
30-35%

302 HP / 296 SpD Offensive CM Latias:
32-38%

[B]Flamethrower:[/B]

329 HP / 216 SpD Standard Agiligross
40-47% 2HKO after SR and LO damage.

343 HP / 196 SpD Standard Scizor:
85.1% - 101.5%  80% OHKO with SR.

354 / 156 SDef Standard Forretress
102-122% OHKO

282 HP / 176 SpD Standard Lucario
57-68% 2HKO

334 HP / 176 SDef Standard Skarmory
47 – 55% 2HKO with SR.

338 HP / 320 SDef Standard Bronzong
26-31% 4HKO

281 HP / 194 SpD Steel Killer Magnezone:
52-61% 2HKO
Code:
[B][U]Defensive Calculations:[/U][/B]

Defense Multiply damage by:
0.9 for positive Nature on CAP10
0.9 for opponent Neutral Nature
1.3 for Life Orb
1.5 for Choice Item

When calculating boosts:

+1/Choice Band/Specs: 67%+ = OHKO, 36%+ = 2HKO
Life Orb: 77% + = OHKO, 42%+ = 2HKO
Expert Belt/Type Plate:  84%+ = OHKO , 45%+ = 2HKO
[B]
405 Atk: Adamant Metagross/Salamence/Tyranitar (approx.)[/B]
[Assume STAB if matches Steel/Psychic/Dragon/Rock/Dark]
Outrage: 47-56% 2HKO with SR
Meteor Mash: 10-12%
Stone Edge: 40-47%
Dragon Claw: 32-38% 
Crunch: 32-38%
Zen Headbutt: 32-38%
Explosion: 132-165% OHKO
Superpower: 31-38% 
Earthquake: 53-62% 2HKO
Aqua Tail: 11-14%
Ice Punch: 10-12%

[B]394 Atk: Adamant Scizor/Breloom/Machamp/Mamoswine[/B]
[STAB where indicated]
Focus Punch: 58-68% [STAB] (2HKO).
Close Combat/Superpower: 46-55% [STAB] (2HKO)
Dynamicpunch: 73-86% [STAB]  2HKO
Earthquake: 78-91% [STAB] 2HKO
X-Scissor: 31-37% [STAB]
Seed Bomb: 62-73% [STAB] 2HKO
U-turn: 27-32% [STAB] 
Bullet Punch: 6-7% [Tech] [STAB]
Ice Shard: 7-10% [STAB]
Superpower: 31-37%
Earthquake: 52-61% 
Stone Edge: 26-30%
Ice Punch: 9-11%
Pursuit: 15-18% [Tech], 20-24% (fleeing)
[B]
383 Atk: Adamant Gyarados/Heracross/Azelf/Honchkrow/Electivire (approx.)[/B]
[STAB where indicated]
Close Combat: 45-53% [STAB] 2HKO with SR
Megahorn: 45-53% [STAB] 2HKO with SR
Bounce: 17-20% [STAB] 
Drill Peck: 15-18% [STAB]
Sucker Punch: 30-35% [STAB]
Zen Headbutt: 30-35% [STAB]
Waterfall: 15-18% [STAB]
Brick Break: 28-33% [STAB]
Thunderpunch: 28-33% [STAB]
Night Slash: 26-31% [STAB]
Pursuit: 15-18% [STAB], 30-35% (fleeing)
Explosion: 125-147% OHKO
Superpower: 30-35% 
Cross Chop: 25-30%
Earthquake: 50-59% 2HKO with SR
Stone Edge: 25-30%
Brick Break: 19-22%
Ice Punch: 10-11%

[B]328 Atk: Adamant Flygon/Jirachi[/B]
[Assume STAB on Dragon/Ground/Steel/Psychic]
Outrage: 38-45%
Earthquake: 64-77% 2HKO
Dragon Claw: 25-30%
Iron Head: 6-7%
Zen Headbutt: 25-30%
U-turn: 15-18%
Ice Punch: 8-9%

When calculating boosts:

+1/Choice Band/Specs: 67%+ = OHKO, 36%+ = 2HKO
Life Orb: 77% + = OHKO, 42%+ = 2HKO
Expert Belt/Type Plate:  84%+ = OHKO , 45%+ = 2HKO

[B]394 SpA: Modest Heatran/Gengar/Magnezone[/B]
[Assume STAB where indicated]
Fire Blast: 31-36% [STAB]
Flamethrower: 24-29% [STAB]
Thunderbolt: 49-57% [STAB] 2HKO with SR
Sludge Bomb: 46-54% [STAB] 2HKO with SR 
Shadow Ball: 41-48% [STAB]
Flash Cannon: 10-12% [STAB]
Lave Plume: 20-24% [STAB]
Thunderbolt: 32-38%
Dragon Pulse: 30-36%
Earth Power: 61-73% 2HKO
Energy Ball: 55-65% 2HKO
Hidden Power NVE: 11-14%
Hidden Power Neutral: 24-28%
Hidden Power SE: 47-57% 2HKO with SR

[B]383 SpA: Modest Zapdos/Azelf[/B]
[Assume STAB on Electric/Psychic]
Thunderbolt: 47-56% 2HKO with SR
Psychic: 45-53%
Heat Wave: 16-20%
Flamethrower: 15-19%
Hidden Power NVE: 11-14%
Hidden Power Neutral: 23-28%
Hidden Power SE: 47-55% 
[B]
350 SpA: Modest Salamence/Latias/Jolteon[/B]
[Assume STAB on Dragon/Psychic/Electric]
Draco Meteor: 64-75%
Thunderbolt: 43-51%
Dragon Pulse: 41-48%
Psychic: 41-48%
Fire Blast: 18-21%
Hydro Pump: 18-21%
Surf: 14-17%
Shadow Ball: 24-29%
Hidden Power NVE: 10-13%
Hidden Power Neutral: 21-25%
Hidden Power SE: 43-50%

[B]339 SpA: Modest Rotom-A/Infernape (approx.)[/B]
[STAB where indicated]
Overheat: 30-36% [STAB]
Fire Blast: 26-31% [STAB]
Focus Blast: 53-62% [STAB] 2HKO
Flamethrower: 21-25% [STAB]
Vacuum Wave: 17-21% [STAB]
Thunderbolt: 42-50% [STAB]
Shadow Ball: 35-42% [STAB]
Overheat: 20-24%
Leaf Storm: 83-97% OHKO with SR.
Blizzard: 17-21%
Hydro Pump: 17-21%
Air Slash: 11-13%
Hidden Power NVE: 10-12%
Hidden Power Neutral: 20-24%
Hidden Power SE: 41-49% 
[B]
328 SpA Modest: Celebi/Starmie/Jirachi/Dragonite[/B]
[Assume STAB on Grass/Water/Psychic/Steel/Dragon]
Leaf Storm: 120-142% OHKO
Draco Meteor: 60-71% 2HKO
Hydro Pump: 25-30%
Fire Blast: 17-20%
Surf: 20-24%
Psychic: 38-45%
Dragon Pulse: 38-45%
Energy Ball: 68-81% 2HKO
Flash Cannon: 8-10%
Flamethrower: 13-16%
Ice Beam: 13-16%
Thunderbolt: 27-32%
Analysis: This spread is primarily concerned with countering Salamence by outspeeding it, surviving its Outrage if necessary, and threatening a KO with Ice Beam. To do this requires a large investment in defense EVs, so this spread is remarkably good at taking physical attacks generally. However, because it needs to outspeed Salamence it's offensive prowess is very suspect. It can take out Mence, Flamethrower offers decent coverage on Steel types, and Thunderbolt can cover Gyarados. Since these three are the most effective moves on the set, the 4th move will probably be a supporting move, maybe Toxic, maybe Recovery. It could also put Surf in there and have the coverage of Fire/Water/Ice/Electric.

It's weaknesses particularly in regard to special attacks are very noticable, and it has extreme difficulty dealing with several bulky defensive pokemon like Celebi and Swampert. Even Physically Defensive Zapdos could offer a potential problem. Mixed attacking is pretty much out of the question with this set, so Blissey also walls it handily.



+1 LO Naive Mence Outrage: 84-2-99.1%. Earthquake: 85-100%
Meaning that if you created a CAP10 to Counter Salamence, it would be able to come in on any of its moves and either force it out or take an Outrage, or have a high probability of surviving Earthquake (it needs to hit 443 when the range is 378-446). Now the interesting part is that we have no investment in SpD. Here is what LO Draco Meteor does: 63-74%. So while we have not and cannot wall Salamence, we can switch in to any of its attacks and, barring a critical hit, force it out by threatening a OHKO.

Now you might ask what this spread is weak to? Well, it can't break Defensive Zapdos. Even Physically Defensive Zapdos only takes 35-42% from Ice Beam, so even though you outspeed it, it can still Roost and easily Pressure Stall you out. Offensive Zapdos would avoid the 2HKO were it not for Life Orb recoil, as another example. As far as the damage Zapdos is dealing, Thunderbolt from Physically Defensive Zapdos deals 36-42%. LO Zapdos clean 2HKO's with Thunderbolt, so it can't come in on you, but you can't really switch into it.

What about Tyranitar? CBTar deals 79-94% with Earthquake to this spread. What does Superpower do to TTar? 65-76%. The Defense Drop ensures Earthquake will proceed to OHKO CAP10, you also risk a potential KO from Sandstorm damage, especially if SR is down. If you used Life Orb you would be susceptible to the above Mence's Outrage and perish via recoil, Zapdos would more easily dispatch you, and you'd still need SR or to divert from Defense to manage a solid KO.

This is merely a scenario example of one specific set that could be tailored to ostensibly counter these three threats. It can certainly damage each of them in turn, and it fares fairly well against them, but the only one it really hard counters is Salamence, who can't KO it with any of it's moves, is slower if it begins with Outrage, and even with the +1 cannot guarantee a KO without hazards. I'll have more advanced Calcs later, this is a draft.


EDIT NOTE: While this spread is very similar to Vaz's, Vaz was posted before the original closing of the topic. His is also is slightly over the allowed parameters, so before you claim "copycat," do know I spent a goodly amount of time calibrating this to fit the restrictions.
Fuzznip said:
Here's my spread. I hope you all like it.

130 HP / 81 Atk / 82 Def / 80 SpA / 84 SpD / 120 Spe

Physical Sweepiness: 149 Rank 5: Good
Physical Tankiness: 173 Rank 6: Very Good
Special Sweepiness: 149 Rank 5: Good
Special Tankiness: 174 Rank 6: Very Good
Offensive/Defense Balance: -4.35 Slightly biased towards Defense
Physical/Special Balance: -0.09 Slightly biased towards Special
Overall Rating: 361 Rank 7: Excellent
Base Stat Total: 577

Overview

When coming up with a stat spread for this CAP, I was aiming for a spread that gives us as much versatility as possible. We want this CAP to have a lot of freedom with its EV choices so it can be constructed to whatever is best to the Pokemon you want to counter. This freedom is done by using a base HP stat of 130 and base Speed stat of 120, along with relatively equal offensive and defensive stats. I wanted to make sure that this CAP won’t be used offensively because of the pretty high Speed, so the average offenses help remove that potential idea of being uses offensively. I’m sure you all won’t like to see this CAP using some Life Orb set because it has great Special Attack and Speed; this is not what the concept is meant to do. I want this Pokemon to take hits, hit back with decent power that won’t leave it helpless, and outspeed certain Pokemon that you want without much EV investment.

HP / Def / SpD

130 HP / 82 Def / 84 SpD is my defensive spread of choice. The high HP gives us a lot of room for where we want our EVs to go. We can use minimal HP investment and insert the rest of our EVs in either or all (Special) Defense, (Special) Attack, and Speed. This is probably the most important aspect of this CAP; versatility. I tried to maximize this Pokemon’s defensive abilities but keep them relatively close to each other to avoid any bias when selecting the Pokemon you want to counter. I mean, I don’t want considerably higher Defense than Special Defense because you won’t be able to effectively counter special threats, such as Azelf, Starmie, etc. So, the close, slightly above average defenses paired up with the great HP stat makes it a good defensive Pokemon.

Atk / SpA / Spe

I didn’t want this Pokemon to be used as a potential sweeper, so the offensive stats I gave it kind of steer it away from being held offensively. The offensive stats are just not sweeper material, so the 80-ish range of these stats are acceptable in my opinion. Also, these stats don’t make our Pokemon weak when countering Pokemon, it still has decent enough power to hit stuff back.

About the Speed... This was probably the most difficult stat for me to decide on. I really didn’t want this CAP to be used offensively, but now with those non-sweep-ish offensive stats, I can safely enhance its Speed to higher levels. I was completely against getting higher 110, but now that I think about it, this CAP would really benefit from the Speed. With base 120 Speed, we are able to outspeed dangerous threats with minimal investment (depending on what it is), as well as outspeeding +1 Salamence, one of the threats that this CAP needs to be able to deal with, and a ton of others. With no Speed at all, we sit at 276 Speed, which already outspeeds a large amount of sweepers, such as Gyarados and Tyranitar. Since we have this much Speed, we are able to use a +(Special) Defense nature and still outpace +1 Salamence and the likes. Also, we don’t need to use a lot of Speed in general, because this CAP is unlikely to try and outpace Pokemon like Dugtrio, meaning we can outspeed what we want and we will most likely have more than enough EVs to use in the other stats. So basically, the Speed is not used for offensive purposes, it's used for defensive purposes.

Speed Landmarks

Below is a list of great Speed landmarks to hit with both neutral and positive natures.

Code:
[B]Neutral Nature[/B]

12 Speed (279): 252 Timid Heatran
16 Speed (280): 252 Adamant Lucario
20 Speed (281): 188 Timid Rotom-A
24 Speed (282): 220 Mild Electivire
36 Speed (285): 252 Jolly Mamoswine, 252 Jolly Dragonite
48 Speed (288): 252 Jolly Gyarados, 212 Timid Rotom-A
80 Speed (296): 252 Jolly Heracross, 252 Jolly Kingdra
92 Speed (299): 252 Timid Rotom-A
100 Speed (301): 252 Adamant Salamence, 252 Adamant Jirachi, 252 Modest Celebi, 252 Modest Zapdos, 252 Adamant Flygon
124 Speed (307): 252 Timid Roserade, 252 Jolly Lucario
132 Speed (309): 216 Jolly Gliscor
168 Speed (318): 252 Jolly Gliscor, 252 Jolly Electivire
220 Speed (330): 192 Jolly Infernape
224 Speed (331): 252 Adamant +1 Tyranitar
212 Speed (329): 252 Jolly Salamence, 252 Jolly Jirachi, 252 Timid Celebi, 252 Timid Zapdos, 252 Jolly Flygon

[B]Positive Nature[/B]

162 Speed (347): 252 Jolly Infernape
176 Speed (352): 252 Timid Gengar, 252 Timid Latias
180 Speed (353): 216 Timid Azelf
218 Speed (360): 252 Modest Jolteon
212 Speed (361): 252 Timid +1 Magnezone
216 Speed (363): 252 Timid Starmie, 252 Timid Azelf
224 Speed (365): 252 Jolly +1 Tyranitar

[B]Neutral Nature + Choice Scarf[/B]

0 Speed (414): 252 Jolly Weavile, 252 Jolly Aerodactyl, 252 Timid Jolteon, 252 Adamant +1 Kingdra, 252 Adamant +1 Gyarados
12 Speed (417): 252 Timid +1 Heatran
16 Speed (420): 132 Adamant +2 Metagross
40 Speed (429): 232 Modest +2 Empoleon
48 Speed (432): 252 Jolly +1 Gyarados
80 Speed (444): 252 Jolly +1 Kingdra
96 Speed (450): 252 Adamant +1 Flygon, 252 Adamant +1 Jirachi, 252 Adamant +1 Salamence, 252 Modest +1 Zapdos
176 Speed (480): 252 Adamant +2 Metagross, 252 Modest +1 Gengar, 252 Modest +1 Latias
212 Speed (493): 252 Jolly +1 Flygon, 252 Jolly +1 Jirachi, 252 Jolly +1 Salamence, 252 Timid +1 Zapdos
216 Speed (494): 252 Modest +1 Starmie, 252 Modest +1 Azelf

[B]Positive Nature + Choice Scarf[/B]

0 Speed (454): 252 Adamant +1 Flygon, 252 Adamant +1 Jirachi, 252 Adamant +1 Salamence, 252 Modest +1 Zapdos, 252 Jolly +1 Kingdra, 252 Jolly +1 Gyarados
60 Speed (480): 252 Adamant +2 Metagross, 252 Modest +1 Gengar, 252 Modest +1 Latias
96 Speed (495): 252 Jolly +1 Flygon, 252 Jolly +1 Jirachi, 252 Jolly +1 Salamence, 252 Timid +1 Zapdos, 252 Modest +1 Starmie, 252 Modest +1 Azelf
172 Speed (525): 252 Adamant +1 Weavile, 252 Modest +1 Jolteon
176 Speed (528): 252 Timid +1 Latias, 252 Timid +1 Gengar
216 Speed (544): 252 Timid +1 Starmie, 252 Timid +1 Azelf
As you can see, base 120 Speed gives this CAP a huge amount of freedom with what it wants to outpace. Whether you want to outspeed Choice Scarf Tyranitar or Dragon Dance Gyarados, you can build your EVs to fit your needs with great success.

To demonstrate attacks this Pokemon can handle and how much damage it can deal back, below are many defensive and offensive calculations. All of the Pokemon are assuming the highest possible (Special) Attack stat they use (some of them don’t use the highest, so remember this when viewing the calculations).

Defensive Calculations

The following calculations are being done with a spread of 52 HP (414 HP) / 252 Def with a +Defense nature (289 Def) / 124 Spe (307) to outpace Jolly Lucario. The remaining 80 EVs can be placed into any offensive stat or added to HP / Defense / Speed. (You can take out 8 EVs from Special Attack and put them into HP to achieve a Leftovers number at 416).

Code:
Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +1 Gyarados using Waterfall: 27% - 32%
Same Gyarados using Bounce: 28% - 33%
Same Gyarados using Earthquake: 89% - 100%
Same Gyarados using Stone Edge: 45% - 53%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk Metagross using Meteor Mash: 12% - 14%
Same Metagross using Earthquake: 63% - 74%
Same Metagross using ThunderPunch: 24% - 28%
Same Metagross using Zen Headbutt: 38% - 45%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +1 Salamence using Outrage: 85% - 100%
Same Salamence using Earthquake: 95% - 100%
Same Salamence using Dragon Claw: 57% - 67%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +2 Lucario using Close Combat: 98% - 100%
Same Lucario using Crunch/ExtremeSpeed: 44% - 51%
Same Lucario using Ice Punch: 21% - 24%
Same Lucario using Stone Edge: 55% - 64%

Adamant Life Orb 252 Atk +2 Infernape using Close Combat: 94% - 100%
Same Infernape using Flare Blitz: 47% - 56%
Same Infernape using ThunderPunch: 39% - 46%

Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Tyranitar using Crunch: 44% - 51%
Same Tyranitar using Stone Edge: 55% - 64%
Same Tyranitar using Aqua Tail: 16% - 19%
Same Tyranitar using Earthquake: 72% - 86%

Adamant 252 Atk Machamp using DynamicPunch: 36% - 42%
Same Machamp using Ice Punch: 9% - 10%
Same Machamp using Earthquake: 47% - 56%
Same Machamp using Stone Edge: 24% - 28%

Adamant Choice Band 252 Atk Scizor using U-turn: 37% - 44%
Same Scizor using Bullet Punch: 8% - 9%
Same Scizor using Superpower: 43% - 50%
The following calculations are being done with a defensive spread of 80 HP (421 HP) / 252 SpD with a +Special Defense nature (293 SpD) / 96 Spe (300 Spe) to outpace Timid Rotom-A and neutral natured base 100s. The remaining 80 EVs can be placed into any offensive stat or added to HP / Defense / Speed.

Code:
Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Heatran using Fire Blast: 24% - 29%
Same Heatran using Earth Power: 49% - 58%
Same Heatran using Dragon Pulse: 24% - 29%
Same Heatran using Hidden Power Grass: 38% - 46%

Modest Life Orb 252 SpA Magnezone using Thunderbolt: 42% - 50%
Same Magnezone using Hidden Power Grass: 42% - 50%
Same Magnezone using Flash Cannon: 9% - 10%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Gengar using Shadow Ball: 33% - 39%
Same Gengar using Thunderbolt: 26% - 31%
Same Gengar using Focus Blast: 33% - 38%
Same Gengar using Energy Ball: 43% - 52%

Timid 252 SpA Roserade using Leaf Storm: 86% - 100%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Shaymin using Seed Flare: 81% - 96%
Same Shaymin using Earth Power: 41% - 48%

Modest Life Orb 252 SpA +2 Togekiss using Air Slash: 31% - 37%
Same Togekiss using Aura Sphere: 50% - 59%

Modest Choice Specs 252 SpA Salamence using Draco Meteor: 64% - 76%
Same Salamence using Dragon Pulse: 41% - 49%
Same Salamence using Hydro Pump/Fire Blast: 18% - 22%

Timid Choice Specs 252 SpA Jolteon using Thunderbolt: 40% - 47%
Same Jolteon using Shadow Ball: 22% - 26%
Same Jolteon using Hidden Power Grass: 39% - 46%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Rotom-A using Shadow Ball: 28% - 33%
Same Rotom-A using Thunderbolt: 33% - 39%
Same Rotom-A using Leaf Storm: 66% - 77%

Timid Life Orb 252 SpA Starmie using Hydro Pump: 20% - 24%
Same Starmie using Thunderbolt: 21% - 25%
Same Starmie using Ice Beam: 11% - 13%
Same Starmie using 100 BP Grass Knot: 46% - 54%

Bold 0 SpA Celebi using 100 BP Grass Knot: 41% - 49%
Offensive Calculations

The following calculations are being done with 80 SpA (216 SpA). I decided to just show the calculations on the special side due to the stronger and greater special attacks it may have access to. I also did not go through every single Pokemon, just enough for you guys to get the idea of the power my spread holds.

Code:
[B]Hydro Pump[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 42% - 49%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 35% - 42%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 18% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 22% - 25%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 57% - 67%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 46% - 55%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 32% - 38%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 48% - 56%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Heatran: 69% - 82%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 35% - 41%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 46% - 54%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 41% - 49%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 58% - 68%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 85% - 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 26% - 31%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 13% - 15%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 34% - 40%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 46% - 54%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 16% - 19%

[B]Surf[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 33% - 39%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 28% - 33%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 14% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 17% - 20%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 45% - 53%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 37% - 44%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 25% - 30% 
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 37% - 44%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Heatran: 56% - 66%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 85% - 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 28% - 33%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 37% - 43%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 33% - 39%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 35% - 54%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 67% - 80%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 21% - 24%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 10% - 12%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 27% - 32%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 36% - 43%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 13% - 15%

[B]Thunderbolt[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 33% - 39%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 28% - 33%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 34% - 40%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 45% - 53%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 18% - 22%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Heatran: 28% - 33%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 42% - 50%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 28% - 33%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 17% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 35% - 54%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 83% - 97%
168 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon: 45% - 53%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 42% - 49%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 27% - 32%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 18% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 13% - 15%

[B]Ice Beam[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 11% - 13%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 9% - 11%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 19% - 23%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 91% - 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 15% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 24% - 29%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 17% - 20%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Heatran: 5%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 14% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 9% - 11%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 24% - 29%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 11% - 13%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 30% - 36%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 89% - 100%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 14% - 16%
168 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon: 7% - 9%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 7% - 8%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 35% - 42%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 12% - 14%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 34% - 40%

[B]Fire Blast[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 100%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 47% - 56%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 12% - 14%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 15% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 75% - 89%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 31% - 37%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 11% - 13%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 16% - 19%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 18% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 46% - 55%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 31% - 36%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 7% - 8%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 39% - 46%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 29% - 34%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 17% - 20%
168 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon: 9% - 11%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 9% - 10%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 22% - 27%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 61% - 73%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 10% - 12%

[B]Flamethrower[/B]

248 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Scizor: 87% - 100%
252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Metagross: 37% - 45%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Gyarados: 9% - 11%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Salamence: 11% - 13%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Lucario: 60% - 70%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Rotom-A: 24% - 29%
252 HP / 0 SpD Relaxed Swampert: 8% - 10%
0 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Flygon: 12% - 15%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Infernape: 14% - 17%
0 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Jirachi: 37% - 44%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Jolteon: 24% - 29%
160 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Tyranitar: 6% - 7%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Gengar: 30% - 36%
252 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Gliscor: 22% - 27%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Starmie: 14% - 16%
168 HP / 0 SpD Bold Vaporeon: 7% - 9%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Suicune: 7% - 8%
252 HP / 0 SpD Bold Zapdos: 18% - 21%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Magnezone: 48% - 58%
0 HP / 0 SpD Timid Latias: 8% - 10%
Thank you for reading and I hope you consider my spread for CAP 10. :)
 
First thing I'd like to say is that best of luck to your spread Deck Knight. May the better spread win.

However, I just find that massive HP a bit of a turnoff. I mean, since you don't necessarily have to invest in HP at all, you can just as easily maximize both of your defenses and turn into an effective all-purpose wall. This essentially kills the purpose of the concept. You can't argue that nobody will use this CAP as one, because they quite possibly can. Basically, you can invest in some Speed to outpace a Pokemon, and then split your EVs into both defenses to take hits on both sides effectively. For example, let's say you want to outpace Jolly Lucario. To outpace it, you need to invest in 136 EVs into Speed with a +Speed nature. That leaves you with 372 EVs to spare for both of your defenses, so you could possible run a spread of 192 Defense / 180 Special Defense / 136 Speed, and with that gargantuan HP stat, you aren't that much weaker when taking hits. This is just an example, so don't take this too seriously.

A lot of people are complaining about my spread because of the Speed. Let me just make this clear once and for all: in absolutely no way can my spread effectively use a sweeper set. It just can't happen. Those offensive stats are worthless and far from viable for a sweeper, despite all of that Speed. Please don't bring up "Well what about Deoxys-S", because it plays much differently than my spread. It has significantly higher Speed (base 180), which allows it to even outpace most Choice Scarf Pokemon with a neutral Speed nature without a Choice Scarf (I need a Choice Scarf). Also, it has pretty good offenses, both sitting at base 95, which is definitely good enough for a sweeper (and are much higher than mine).

The amount of Speed my spread suggests is only for defensive purposes. You're able to outpace Pokemon like Salamence and still use a positive defense nature to take its hits easier. Also, you are more free with your EVs, as you can use minimal investment in your Speed to outpace certain things, and then insert the rest into either defense and either offense. The amount of freedom you have with this is very useful when it comes to countering specific threats. Be it Choice Scarf Tyranitar or Dragon Dance Gyarados, you are able to construct your Pokemon to handle these threats with ease.

That's all I have to say. Good luck Deck, again.
 
The same can be said for the most part about your speed Fuzznip. I think it is much more likely that CAP 10 will invest in speed and a single def stat and put what is left into attack. I am voting Deck Knight
 
I shall stick with what I said before and vote for Fuzznip's Stat Spread. It looks much clearer and more uniqe than Deck's Spread. The high speed is vital to outspeed the metagame's top threats and does not rquire a huge amount of HP like Deck's.
 
The same can be said for the most part about your speed Fuzznip. I think it is much more likely that CAP 10 will invest in speed and a single def stat and put what is left into attack. I am voting Deck Knight
How exactly is that a problem? Investing in Speed is of course not a bad thing at all. It helps this CAP counter specific threats. Then the CAP will invest in one of its defenses and put the rest into one of its offenses to harm the Pokemon it wants to counter for greater damage, or just adding it to its HP to take hits better. This is exactly what my spread intends to do.
 

Korski

Distilled, 80 proof
is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
It's pretty clear that speed is going to be the primary method of countering for this CAP, which is fine by me, and I'm positive it will be effective. That being said, it's obvious to me that Fuzznip's is the better spread if only for the fact that it's faster than both Deck's spread and all of OU (bar the rare Ninjask or Weavile), allowing you complete freedom to outrun just about anything you want in just about any speed tier. Deck's spread sits at 105, just barely above OU's largest menace, Salamence, pretty reasonably requiring it to invest a large amount of EVs (216) along with a boosting nature to outrun it, which I can say with a fair amount of certainty will be included in every standard spread, since that 100 base landmark is pivotal to outrun if you can do it. Beyond that, it fails to outrun a few notables, including Latias, Infernape, and Gengar (nearly every iteration of Starmie can't really touch this CAP due to typing) and thus must find new ways of customizing itself to beat those threats, which I think is somewhat inconsistent. The defensive calculations are roughly the same, as are offensive calcs, so they're a wash, which leaves only Speed as the separating factor between the two. Fuzznip's is simply better in that regard.
 
Going with Fuzznip but both are good. The speed, I feel, is needed to get the jump on Latias, Starmie and the like. It also helps out speed some slower Pokemon at +1 (T-Tar) which can be useful.
 
Deck Knight's has better offenses, defenses, and doesn't waste time with what I feel is a completely unnecessary amount of Speed. As my main fear is that CAP10 won't be able to touch tanks, Deck Knight's does this ever so slightly better.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
It's tough to say how CAP10 will play out with either spread. I don't like all of that speed on Fuzznip's set, since its two usable STABs and passable offense might leave it open to interpretation as an offensive Pokemon; however, having good speed would allow it to circumvent its modest bulk and allow it to function as a utility counter simply by surving a strong hit from another offensive Pokemon, outspeeding them, and KOing with super effective move.

This is a difficult decision, but Deck Knight seems to have the superior spread, since I think the higher speed will harm the vision of a utility counter rather than aid it. 105 is good enough for getting past Mence and Lucario, who pose the biggest problems to tanks/walls in general and combined with a mediocre offense, it won't stand on its own as a tangible OU threat. This is just the kind of balance CAP10 needs to realize its true potential.

EDIT: Took another look at the Sp. Def on Deck Knight's spread and I think it's a smidge too low. I hope we can negotiate a small boost to those defenses after the vote.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Good Luck Fuzz.

In any event I think the spread speaks for itself. I think neither defense will be a problem. What special attack even remotely matches the power of +1 LO Salamence Outrage? (Other than a +1 LO Draco Meteor from CM/DM Latias...). If it can survive that while still outspeeding its user and being able to KO back, I assure you the only problem you'll have with CAP10 is deciding the optimum investment for countering certain threats. The reason the SpD calculations are so low is because I only do calculations of completed spreads, so those calculations are based on 12/0 HP/SpD investment.

As far as speed is concerned I'm fine not outpacing Infernape/Latias/Gengar. Those are certainly threats, but unlike Salamence/Zapdos/Celebi/Jirachi they all have exploitable weaknesses either from low defenses or, in Latias' case, being Tyranitar food. The only way you would have caught them anyway is with a spread like Fuzz's since they all run Max Spe+. I don't necessarily want Every CAP10 spread to run 176 Spe with Timid/Jolly to outspeed a threat like Latias. There's no real downside to doing that, it's less EV's than it takes for my spread to Outrun Mence.

Fuzz's set is infinitely better at abusing Choice Band and Choice Specs though. The luxuries of having 339 Spe without a nature (or 372 with) are great. I think Band or Specs might see some use on a niche set, but I'd prefer them not to be generally viable. Given the likely coverage movepool this is going to get, 388 Atk(or SpA) /372 Spe isn't that bad. Technically it's the same as Dugtrio, except Dugtrio has paper defenses and CAP10 doesn't. Alternatively you could run 426/339. Considering all the mons you do outspeed even there, I wouldn't put it past someone to run it.

As for my spread being an all-purpose wall with 252/252 Defenses? Laughable. It needs 12 HP EVs to guarantee survival +1 LO Naive Mence Outrage even with 252 EVs in Defense. Nevermind you'll never threaten anything you don't hit 4x with what amounts to 204/202/246 Offenses/Speed.
 
I am going to vote for Fuzznips only on the basis that I prefer the extra speed investment over the extra HP. Speed is pretty much crucial to countering a lot of the most common sweepers at the moment, especially when you're relying on versatility more than power.
 
Speed is pretty much crucial to countering a lot of the most common sweepers at the moment, especially when you're relying on versatility more than power.
By this, I assume we're talking about sweepers such as Latias, Gengar, Salamence and Infernape - ones which have fairly exploitable weaknesses but major speed to circumvent this. As Scizor is one of the most common sweepers as well, it's only problem against CAP 10 is that it's Bullet Punch is 1/4 effective.
My answer to that is you cannot exactly use that argument. Blissey still sits as a solid counter to Special Sweepers despite below average speed, average Special Attack, and paper-thin Defence and Attack. All because it has maxed out HP and high Sp. Defence to deal with all those Special Sweepers. I'm not saying that speed isn't more useful, but it's not anywhere near crucial.

I've voted Deck Knight purely on the basis that I'd prefer the higher HP stat to the higher Speed. There isn't much difference between both spreads - each can outspeed a lot, and have high HP. The attacking stats are practically the same, and it's just a case of more Attack vs. more Defence in the end. I want more defence for my Pokemon, so Deck Knight's gets my vote for that reason.
 
I think you misunderstand me Fuzznip. 120 Base Speed means you only need 96 EVs Positive Nature to outspeed Salamence! That means that the rest of those EVs can be invested in the secondary defense (or attack), exactly what you wanted to avoid!
 

SJCrew

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I don't think the base stats are set in stone anyway, as I think there's a little room for improvement on either set if we truly want them to be effective as utility counters. Even though higher speed gives you more leeway for investing in other stats, lower speed requires more investment so that its countering purpose is even more specific. Switching in on Draco Metoer, outspeeding, then hitting with Ice Beam for the OHKO is good for Mence, but that's not going to help it counter stuff like DD Gyara, who can just OHKO with EQ. We have to make it effective, but limited, so it fulfills its role and nothing more.
 
I voted for Deck Knight, though I had a really hard time deciding. In the end, the large HP won me Over, as I figured an Appropriate type resist berry could allow you to counter powerful EQ/GK/LS users without havind to outspeed, which I think negates most of the issues with not outspeeding certain pokemon. Base 105 speed isn't bad anyway. I also thought the base 120 speed might mean the number of Ev's needed to outspeed certain threats was a bit too small. Anyway, good look to both of you, and props on creating such brilliant spreads.
 
OK, so I've not really been following most of the CAP project, but I think Deck Knight has a better spread overall with its massive HP. Surely, if this is supposed to counter stuff, it'd benefit from having higher base HP so it can survive just a little bit longer?
 
OK, so I've not really been following most of the CAP project, but I think Deck Knight has a better spread overall with its massive HP. Surely, if this is supposed to counter stuff, it'd benefit from having higher base HP so it can survive just a little bit longer?
But the defenses are lower so it's not a huge difference.
 

Destiny Warrior

also known as Darkwing_Duck
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Well, right now, I'm rather impressed with Deck Knight's spread. The offenses are just enough for a Utility Counter, and and the same goes for its defenses. The HP stat and speed stat HAVE to be high(with the speed stat definitely having to be >100 to outspeed stuff like DD-Mence when holding a Scarf). It looked weird to me during the first poll with that plain enormous HP stat, but afterwards, I got the point that the HP stat is necessary for lasting after good +1 hits.
 

beej

everybody walk the dinosaur
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Well, the poll is closed, and Deck Knight's spread has won the vote. Congratulations!
 
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