CAP 11 CAP 11 - Main Typing Discussion

[Fuzznip]

The time has come to discuss Togekiss's Perfect Mate's primary typing. In the Concept Assessment 2 thread, we brought up that this CAP shouldn't just focus on Togekiss's weaknesses, as it should also focus on luring in certain attacks Togekiss will likely set up on. Get creative with this.

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
• What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
• What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
• Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate?

Please remember that this is the main typing discussion. Do not go too off-topic with secondary typings. There will be a thread for that once we select our primary typing.

Have fun!

 

[Icy Vegeta]

I would like to advocate the inclusion of Electric as Mate's Primary typing due to the fact that it can absorb T-bolts directed at Togekiss, and it can resist Bullet punches which is very important. Also it is a potent lure to any Earthquakes allowing Togekiss a free switch-in.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I would like to add Steel to the list of possible types for Perfect Mate's primary typing. Steel lures Earthquakers (Pert, Tar, Mamoswine, ScarfTran etc.), especially Choiced ones, in and then Togekiss can set up a NP, Twave or start flinching.

Also, Steel lures in slow Fighting types that Togekiss can kill with Air Slash.

Steel ftw.

 

[petrie911]

Despite what I said earlier in the concept discussion, I'd actually like to put in for the Psychic type.

Psychic is weak to Bug and Ghost, while at the same time resisting Fighting. This encourages moves that Togekiss easily comes in on and discourages the powerful STAB CCs it really doesn't want to come in on. Additionally, Togekiss's immunity to Shadow Ball means that CaP11 is unlikely to encounter a Ghost-type attack when switching in for Togekiss.

Psychic has another neat thing. It encourages Pokemon like Tyranitar, Weavile, and Scizor to switch in. What do these Pokemon have in common? They are all pokemon Togekiss will have trouble with. However, since they all have rather crippling weaknesses, this allows CaP11 to lure out these Pokemon, then destroy them with the appropriate move.

Lastly, although it has good synergy with Togekiss, Psychic doesn't have great synergy with Pokemon like Zapdos and Gyarados, who already resist Fighting and aren't immune to Ghost. This will help ensure that Togekiss is the one CaP11 is partnered with, instead of other OU Flyers.

And, on a less competitive note, Psychic is also a type we've never used in CaP. This allows us to explore new ground. (We've also never used Normal and Flying, but it should be fairly obvious why those are terrible ideas for CaP11)

 

[CobraJSF]

I would like to second Steel, as it is a good defensive typing and offers many benefits. These include:

-STAB on several good moves (Bullet Punch, Iron Head, Meteor Mash, etc.)
-Immunity to Toxic
-Resistance to Rock and Ice, two types that hit Togekiss for SE.
-A good defensive typing
-Weakness to Ground, which Togekiss can exploit.

Ninja'd

 

[NARFNra]

I'm still not very sure about all this Steel love. Considering that Togekiss really cannot take Fighting hits, if we create a Fighting weak pokemon it'd have to be have very large physical defense to avoid being KO'd by Lucario and the like.

Personally, I like Psychic, for the same reasons as petrie says.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Right, first off, we’ll do a little shuffle for a defensive typing. The offensive bit comes later. First, as I am adamant that CAP11 should not share a single weakness with Togekiss (make note there), I remove from the prospective list all the typings that share any number of weaknesses with Togekiss (ie. Rock, Ice, or Electric). Then, we remove the Normal-type. Then, we remove all those with a Pursuit weakness, as screwing up there would be a disaster, especially if they rely on each other to be effective, as that means constant switching.

So, we have the following:

Electric
Poison
Fighting
Rock
Dark
Steel

Here is the necessary information:

Togekiss’s Resistances: Ground, Ghost, Bug, Grass
Togekiss’s Weaknesses: Rock, Ice, Electric

And here are my thoughts.

Electric – resists Electric, so can take Thunderbolts aimed at Togekiss. Its STAB is also resisted by Grass and Ground, making a Flying STAB a powerful offensive complement, hence appealing to Togekiss’s power. Lastly, it attracts Ground-type moves, so can pull Togekiss in on predicted Earthquakes. Very good typing, my only concern is that we have had quite a few Electric-types recently, so another one risks a repeat of prior information.

Poison – An inferior Electric to be honest. Still attracts Earthquake, and reinforces Togekiss against Bug and Grass, as well as resisting Fighting, so an excellent defensive typing, but does not really help much on the offensive side, nor does it give very great synergy with Togekiss.

Fighting – Resistances to U-turn, Pursuit, and Stealth Rock, but no real defensive synergy. However, the Flying + Flying combination is a very, very potent one, so makes for a very good offensive duo. Doesn’t help with Ghosts though, and unless we’re careful could end up too independent. Oh, and we have two Fighting-types already.

Rock – My absolute favourite here, even if it may not seem as good as the others to a certain extent. It attracts both Ground- and Grass-type moves, which are the ones that Togekiss wants to come in on, and is a helpful offensive tool – very much so. Its weaknesses are bad news defensively, but it has a certain charm to it, as it seems the least likely to go wrong when paired with Togekiss, as this is the only typing that inherently gives both offensive and defensive support, both through desirable defensive synergy and desirable offensive typing. In particular, it encourages the use of Ground-types to counter it, which is useful, since this means a lot more opportunities for Togekiss to come in. Only thing is, the ominous spectre of Scizor looms, which makes it a lot less desirable than it otherwise could be.

Dark – Eh. I’m not too fond of it. No defensive synergy at all, and encourages U-turn spam by Scizor to destroy the combination. One thing it does have over the others, however, is the Colossoil-esque ability to ward off Ghosts, thereby allowing you to beat Togekiss’s nemesis Rotom-A, and therefore to spin away Stealth Rock.

Steel – Resists just about everything and attracts Ground-type moves. Not a particularly great offensive STAB, but still useful. Only problem is that it doesn’t have much synergy with Togekiss… at all… so it has basically zero relevance to the concept of Perfect Mate. I honestly don’t like it. Oh, and Togekiss can't take Fighting-type hits at all.

So, in conclusion, I would be happy with any of the ones above, for all the different reasons they provide and routes to travel for CAP11, but my favourites simply have to be Rock, Electric, Poison, and Fighting in that order.

Good night to you.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Does past CAP typing influence future CAP typing? I get the point that CAPs are here for the OU metagame and the OU metagame only, but does the fact that two of the last three CAPs have Electric as their primary typing mean that CAP 11 cannot be Electric or Water?

 

[peng]

Basically, whilst supporting all of the suggestions put forward so far, I feel that the Fighting type has been getting a lack of love here.

With Togekiss being represented as a mainly offensive Pokemon, abusing STAB attacks such as Air Slash along with coverage moves such as Aura Sphere and flamethrower, I feel that Togekiss' prefect mate should have typing to complement the coverage given by Togekiss' main attacks.
i.e. breaking Togekiss' counters.

So the Pokemon which counter Togekiss:
Blissey, Rotom Formes, Zapdos, Bronzong are the main pokemon which will be causing Togekiss problems when attempting a sweep.

The priority in creating Togekiss' prefect mate is to stop these pokemon reliably, and the types that can best pull this off are Fighting, Dark, and Fire.Fighting is in my opinion the best choice for the job, easily dispatching Blissey and punishing Bronzong's repeated switch-ins with strong STAB Fighting attacks. Rotom and Zapdos then still remain as problems, but they are less bulky than the aforementioned Blissey and Bronzong and can be easily dealt with in other ways. Of course, if Fighting was chosen as the primary typing, the secondary typing would probably be a type effective against Rotom or Zapdos, or something that can take repeated electric attacks anyway.

Fighting is also a potent support typing for Togekiss. Due to Fighting's resistance to Stealth Rock, easily the most common entry hazard, it means it can repeatedly switch in and out to support Togekiss without taking too much residual damage.

Anyway, thats my opinion. Vote Fighting!

 

[Bughouse]

I fear that any Psychic type CAP just isn't good enough as a helper for Togekiss. Petrie911 pointed out that it would lure in things like Tyranitar, Weavile, and Scizor which all can pursuit-trap this new psychic type (unless its second type resisted dark i.e. Psychic/Dark or it had a new ability preventing pursuit-trap somehow)

My vote at this point is for electric, provided that it does not gain an advantage from being hit from electric moves like Electivire or Jolteon, as this would benefit other Flying-types, namely Gyarados, too much. CAP 11 would almost have to be dual-typed, and the second type would preferably resist Stealth Rock (Steel, Fighting, or Ground). Electric/Steel has already been done; the other two have not. Personally I would love there to be an Electric/Ground combination.

As a side note, Electric has been dual-typed to only 4 types (the fewest besides Normal) in the game: Flying, Water, Steel, and Ghost. I would love to see more Electric types in the metagame.

 

[Quilph]

Poison is an attractive option for a few reasons.

One of its most important purposes is to draw in earthquake/earth power, and many seem to agree that the best way for Togekiss to make a switch is to be immune to a predicted attack. Electric, rock, steel, and fire could all serve a similar function, but none of them resist fighting moves. Given how Togekiss really can't absorb fighting attacks well, I'm inclined to think that CAP11 should resist them. Otherwise a speedy Infernape for example can jump in and severely maim both Togekiss and its partner, assuming the latter is weak to it. If CAP11 has good enough defenses, I might settle for neutrality to fighting, but a resistance is better. True, poison has nothing to bring to the table on the offensive end, but that role can be filled by the secondary typing, which is of course going to be discussed later. Poison can serve as a solid defensive buffer, and as mentioned it aids in dealing with bug and grass types. I don't want to get into secondary typing, so I'll keep it at this.

 

[QuimicVital]

I think Rock type would be a cool type combined with other type, as Togekiss resists Ground and Grass, and Rock is typically packed with Defense (not always) to resist it. Otherwise we could select Steel to make Togekiss resist everything and add another fu*king steel type to the list. :D

 

[Mektar]

I like the idea of the Psychic type, but we should consider Ground as well.

Ground types are immune to Electric attacks, including Thunder Wave, one of Togekiss' major weaknesses. They also resist Rock attacks, including Stealth Rock, another of Togekiss' weaknesses. Ground types even lure in Grass types, which Togekiss resists. Sure, Ground types are also weak to Ice, but it is still an interesting option.

 

[Class]

Voting Ground.

I agree with everything Mektar said, but also I will add this. Ground typing complements Togekiss very well offensively. Togekiss likes to abuse its flying STAB, which is resisted by Electric, Rock, and Steel. Ground hits all 3 of these super-effectively.

 

[Bughouse]

The problem I see with a Poison-typed Perfect Mate is that it provides no type coverage. Togekiss can already dispatch of Grass-types. Unless it had a second type that both resisted Stealth Rock AND provided type coverage, this could not be a Perfect Mate. As said above, the only types that resist Stealth Rock are Fighting, Ground, and Steel.

Poison/Ground has been done by GameFreak with Nidoking/queen and by CAP with Fidgit.
Poison/Fighting has been done by GameFreak with Croagunk and Toxicroak.
So unless CAP 11 were Poison/Steel... actually this is very interesting as it really entices Earthquake, which Togekiss can be switched in on, and CAP 11 would not have a Fighting weakness bringing down Steel or Psychic weakness bringing down Poison because the types help cover each other

This is also interesting as Steel types are immune to Poison (and I love these paradoxes as my suggestion of Electric with the possibility of Ground above suggests).

I know this is only a main-typing discussion, but I will actually switch my vote from Electric to Poison after seeing the possibilities in dual-typing later on.

 

[petrie911]

I fear that any Psychic type CAP just isn't good enough as a helper for Togekiss. Petrie911 pointed out that it would lure in things like Tyranitar, Weavile, and Scizor which all can pursuit-trap this new psychic type (unless its second type resisted dark i.e. Psychic/Dark or it had a new ability preventing pursuit-trap somehow)

I think you misunderstood that part of my post. You see, luring in Ttar, Weavile, and Scizor is not necessarily a bad thing. For starters, all 3 are pretty dangerous to Togekiss, and a way to lure them out is rather nice. Secondly, they're going to have a hard time pursuit trapping you if you don't switch and instead blast them with their 4x weakness. CaP11 will probably have good physical defense, so it should be able to take a non-switching pursuit, and it doesn't take too much attack to OHKO Ttar with Superpower/Low Kick or Scizor with Flamethrower. Lastly, Baton Pass escapes Pursuit, and having your opponent locked into a 40 power move can be very useful.

Not to mention CaP11 may get WoW, and burning any of those 3 Pokemon would do wonders for Togekiss.

 

[Fuhret]

I think that CAP11 shouldn't be Rock/Stealth Rock weak, which is more important than being Ice/Electric weak (it would help, but Togekiss is specially defensive and as the majority of Electric/Ice attacks are special, can take those hits fairly well).

This disqualifies Bug, Fire, Flying and Ice.

Types that would resist Rock are Fighting, Ground and Steel. I feel that Steel is an amazing typing as it can take many hits, but has no real synergy with Togekiss specifically and it's weak to Fighting. Togekiss doesn't have good defense and only a neutrality to Fighting, so cannot switch into Fighting attacks very well. I think that CAP11 should either resist or at the least take only neutral from Fighting attacks.

This disqualifies Normal, Rock, Steel and Dark.

Finally, I think that everyone can agree that Togekiss has a major problem with Gengar and Rotom forms. So, CAP11 should have no weakness to their STAB. Since no one uses Poison offensively, this means Ghost and Electric. Even though Togekiss can come in on Ghost attacks, it can't do much to the Pokemon using them.

This disqualifies Ghost, Psychic and Water.

Disregarding the aforementioned types, we are left with Fighting, Poison, Ground, Grass, Electric and Dragon.

Fighting: Some decent resistances, but doesn't have great synergy. It also can't handle Ghosts, and Togekiss usually carry Aura Sphere so offensively it isn't necessary.

Poison: Is great at resisting Fighting attacks, something that is very important, and also lures out Earthquake/Earth Power, but is horrible offensively. This could be a very good typing, but would need a great offensive secondary typing.

Ground: Immunity to Electric is nice, but a second weakness to Ice isn't. While it can draw out Grass-attacks, sharing a weakness isn't very good and that eliminates it as my choice.
Grass: Not a very great type, nothing that special about it; even if it does resist Electric, it also resists Ground attacks and that gives it poor synergy. Although Grass-types usually have good supporting moves, offensively the coverage isn't very nice and defensively it can't handle common Fire attacks/U-Turn. Also, another weakness to Ice.

Dragon: Just like Grass and Ground, weak to Ice and that kills it. Even if it does resist Electric and have fantastic neutral coverage, the weakness kills it.

Electric: One of my favourites. Not that much defensively, but resists Electric, Steel and Flying. It's only weakness is Ground, helping lure out Ground attacks for Togekiss, and can threaten out Water types (that usually carry Ice moves) for Togekiss. Offensively, it shares syngery with Togekiss luring out Grass and Ground types.

My votes would have to be for Electric, Posion, Fighting, in that order.

 

[smallvizier]

The most flexible main typing by far is Steel. What I mean by this is that there are several secondary typings which would combine very well with Steel. Steel/Psychic, Steel/Poison, Steel/Ghost and Steel/Dragon are all excellent typings which would cover most weaknesses and allow both pokemon to contribute to the partnership.

On the other hand, slow and physically defensive Steels have been done to death already - and CaP11 certainly has more options to consider.

Ground is an excellent typing, whether as Ground/Water, Ground/Ice or even - the horror! - a pure Ground type! Yes, I am suggesting that a pure-typed CaP wouldn't be the end of the world. For consider this: the only common weakness would be Ice, and thanks to its special defense, Togekiss can actually take Ice attacks quite well. Ground pokemon can ignore Electric and resist Rock attacks. Meanwhile Togekiss resists Grass attacks and can (again) lean on its special defense to shrug off Water. Then there's the added bonus of Thunder Wave resistance.

So, it's Steel or Ground, right? Wrong! Consider the Electric/Fighting CaP. Resistant to Electric and Rock, it handily deals with Togekiss' weaknesses - and possesses two amazing STABs to boot. Its own troubles are Psychic and Ground. But Togekiss is immune to Ground, and has the special defense to soak up Psychic attacks. An amazing combination!

So, I feel that Steel, Ground, Electric or Fighting would be the best 'main' typing for CaP11. I prepared this list some time ago, but it is no surprise to me that others have already reached the same conclusion - I am convinced that one of our CaP's types will eventually come from this list. As for my own personal preference? I will hold back and watch the thread develop before pitching my voice one way or another. As I said initially, though, if our priority is to create an interesting 'secondary typing' discussion then we can't go wrong with Steel. Its many resistances make it supremely versatile.

 

[zach the great]

I support Ground for the following reasons:
-SR (And Rock) resistance.
-SE hit on Tyranitar.
-Almost perfect coverage with Togekiss' Flying type.
-Electric immunity.

Of course, Ice could be a problem for the duo, but this could probably be worked around in Secondary type and abilities.

 

[Bughouse]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat srk1214
I fear that any Psychic type CAP just isn't good enough as a helper for Togekiss. Petrie911 pointed out that it would lure in things like Tyranitar, Weavile, and Scizor which all can pursuit-trap this new psychic type (unless its second type resisted dark i.e. Psychic/Dark or it had a new ability preventing pursuit-trap somehow)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat petrie911
I think you misunderstood that part of my post. You see, luring in Ttar, Weavile, and Scizor is not necessarily a bad thing. For starters, all 3 are pretty dangerous to Togekiss, and a way to lure them out is rather nice. Secondly, they're going to have a hard time pursuit trapping you if you don't switch and instead blast them with their 4x weakness. CaP11 will probably have good physical defense, so it should be able to take a non-switching pursuit, and it doesn't take too much attack to OHKO Ttar with Superpower/Low Kick or Scizor with Flamethrower. Lastly, Baton Pass escapes Pursuit, and having your opponent locked into a 40 power move can be very useful.
Not to mention CaP11 may get WoW, and burning any of those 3 Pokemon would do wonders for Togekiss.

So you are saying that CAP 11 should be Psychic type... yet also carry both a Fire-typed attack and a Fighting-type attack? I thought that CAP 11 was going to function as support and Physical wall. This pokemon cannot function as it should if 2 of its 4 moveslots are focused on not being pursuit-trapped.

 

[callforjudgement]

I think Psychic may be a good type for a Togekiss partner. Some of the things that I think Togekiss's Perfect Mate should be like (specially aggressive, ability to absorb and spread status) are typical of Psychic-type Pokémon. It's also worth noticing that you don't need an entire ability just to make a Pokémon immune to Pursuit; you can simply put Baton Pass in the Pokémon's movepool instead, letting you dry-pass the Togekiss in safely. (Out of all the things that Togekiss could be switching in on, an unboosted Pursuit is not likely to bother it much.) You could also give CAP11 a move that defeats most Pursuiters, making trying to Pursuit it very risky. So I don't think a Pursuit weakness is problematic at all for CAP11.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I support the inclusion of the Ground-type in the primary slate for typings. The reasons for this are all elaborated on below.

• Resists 2/3 of Togekiss's weaknesses

We're not creating a defensive core here, but at the same time, due to Togekiss's natural bulk and being slow, the core needs to be able to perform switches to one another well-enough. Ground is the only primary typing that immediately resists 2/3 of Togekiss's weaknesses.

• Resists Stealth Rock

This is something handy to start with for anything that plans to work with a Flying-type Pokemon. It is more a consequence of the first bullet, but it's so important that it deserves a note of its own.

• Thunder Wave immunity

Togekiss, no matter what it does, hates paralysis completely and totally. There are two ways to be immune to Thunder Wave: Ability and Typing. If we end up, in the future, forcing CAP11 to get an ability that renders him immune to Thunder Wave (Motor Drive, Volt Absorb, Limber), he will end up supporting other Pokemon better than Togekiss (Gyarados in particular). An Electric-type immunity can fit a Pokemon well into a team, but won't single it out to help out other Electric-weak Pokemon more than Togekiss. This keeps our CAP11 within the realm of "pairing best with Togekiss."

• Versatile Pairing

This isn't saying what our secondary typing will or should be, but rather suggests that Ground pairs excellently with a lot of different options that could work to great effect alongside Togekiss. This, for what it's worth, gives us variety in the secondary typing slate and encourages strong discussions there as well.

 

[familyguyman]

Since BoltBeam is such a common threat, our partner must be neutral or better to both. I want to keep this in mind through discussions.

I'm going to throw Fire out there for discussion. It can take BP and Ice attacks, lures Earthquake, has a very powerful STAB to hit Ghosts and Electrics hard as well as murder most Steel types leaving only Heatran who can be beaten with Aura Sphere. Rock types in OU are basically Tyranitar whom Togekiss can again deal with using Aura Sphere.

While Fire does share a Rock weakness, we can cover that up later (Fire/Ground anyone?) and it only emphasizes Togekiss' supporting role with Wish passing.


As for other types, Ground works for me, as does Electric (though it's not very useful defensively). Steel is bleh and does nothing offensively except help beat Tyranitar, we can bring that up as a secondary type IMO. I also like the idea of Rock, a very underrepresented type.

So basically,
My "good list" is: Fire, Ground, Rock
My "maybe later list" is: Steel, Electric, Fighting, Ghost, Water
My "No, shift away from this list" is: Psychic, Poison, Dark, Bug, Grass, Dragon, Ice, Normal, Flying

 

[petrie911]

So you are saying that CAP 11 should be Psychic type... yet also carry both a Fire-typed attack and a Fighting-type attack? I thought that CAP 11 was going to function as support and Physical wall. This pokemon cannot function as it should if 2 of its 4 moveslots are focused on not being pursuit-trapped.

It doesn't need to carry them, but the threat is there. Are you willing to risk Ttar to a possible Superpower or Scizor to a possible Flamethrower? Not to mention that both of those types are good coverage types, and would have good chance of being found on CaP11.

Also, as already mentioned, WoW and Baton Pass both offer great synergy with Togekiss and screw over pursuit trappers.

 

[smallvizier]

petrie911, Psychic does not cover any of Togekiss' three weaknesses. I understand that there is more to typing than weaknesses and as you mentioned, Fighting is a big concern - but still, Psychic would need to be paired with a type such as Steel to be effective. And if that's not the case, why not just pick Steel for the primary type and consider Psychic as an option in the next thread?

bugmaniacbob, you say your favourite type is Rock. Yet Rock also covers none of Togekiss' weaknesses - and it is weak to Fighting, another big problem for Togekiss. It also has weaknesses to Steel and Water, and Togekiss doesn't cover them either. In all we would have SIX types that caused our pairing problems: Electric, Ice, Rock, Fighting, Steel and Water.

Also, you say you think Steel has little synergy with Togekiss. Perhaps you didn't notice resistance to Ice and (crucially) Rock. On top of that, Steel's most dangerous weakness is Ground (all those Earthquakes)... and Togekiss is immune to Ground! That sounds like synergy to me. It gets even better when you consider potential secondary typings, where we're spoilt for choice. Steel/Poison resists Rock and Ice, but is 4x weak to Ground. Steel/Psychic shares Steel's resistances, and also gets STAB to the special-type Psychic attacks, which would be boosted by Nasty Plot. Steel/Ghost is immune to Fighting! Seriously, Steel 'just works.'

srk1214, you say you've switched your vote to Poison because it works so well with Steel. I would suggest that you might as well just vote Steel for now, and go for Poison in round two.

In conclusion, I favour four types which all have amazing STAB, well-suited resistances, and a superb range of secondary options: Steel, Ground, Electric and Fighting.