CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll 2

[Innocent Criminal]

Fighting shares no weaknesses with Normal / Flying

Which is a good thing, no matter how a put it. I understand your point, but I already talked about it and Fighting does it better. The only way Ground is ever gonna hurt the many troubling pokemons is to predict the switch and use a SE move... Not so reliable, especially when Rotom, Zapdos and Gengar can switch on your STAB.

However, we can use the fact that Fighting gets perfect coverage with either Rock, Ice or Ghost, types to which every single Togekiss counter is weak. This leaves us many wait to lure in and kill them. You can use expert belt to fake a choice item. You can run both of them and show Ice Beam, only to kill Rotom coming to absorb Fighting, or show Shadow Ball to dispose of Zapdos with Ice Beam or Power Gem.

That's fair, but it's impossible for Normal/Flying to get perfect type coverage. And the closest it gets is with Ground being one of the primary types. So what is Fighting doing in the picture

Fighting/Electric is even better : with every Electric-type and their brothers running HP Grass or Leaf Storm to kill swampert, "only" resisting Electric is good enough.

Offensively Fighting is redundant.

As I explained many times, and as most agreed on Concept Assessment, redundancy is good for Togekiss, to cure its moveslot syndrome. Only the NP sweeper has room for Aura Sphere !

Let me say this again: Why. Is. Togekiss. Switching. In. On. Ice Beam/Surf?

Then, following that logic, we could just as well make CAP11 Flying/Normal. Why would he switch on Tbolts, Ice Beams and Stone Edge, anyway ? Oh, right... That's called defensive synergy, and it's the only reason to choose Ground over Fighting. I don't think perfect defensive synergy is need important for Togekiss, but at the very least, it shouldn't attract then be forced out by Togekiss' counters.

a fighting type is susceptible to Thunder Wave

There are no rules stating that, we make the pokemons we want to. "Rock types are physical and slow" didn't prevent us from making Stratagem. Actually, Fighting-type, by itself, is one of the least susceptible to TWave typing because it has both physical and special priority moves. I think a slow, bulky and specially offensive Fighting type would fit the concept very well.

The CAP project is to test how pokemon will function in OU, not along with the rest of the new pokemon, correct? So unless colossoil became togekiss' greatest partner already, in which case this project would have been rejected, then it is not relevant.

It is relevant because Colossoil has everything we would give to Ground CAP to help Togekiss (Electric immunity and ability to remove Rotom, Gengar, Zapdos, Starmie...) and IS, in fact, Togekiss' greatest partner. However, it is also Gyarados' perfect partner for these very same reasons, despite being weak to Celebi and bulky waters. As "Gyarados minus its electric counters" is better than "Togekiss minus its electric counters", it's used with Gyara and not with Kiss. It is definitely relevant, not "because we already did it lol", but because it shows that the caracteristics that you want to give to CAP lead to a Gyarados partner.

Maybe because Air Slash is really shitty STAB without Fighting move coverage? It'd make an incredibly predictable core, something like "Togekiss NP's, SpecsJolt switches in". Let's see, we can switch to our Fighter and take a ton of damage, or we can keep Togekiss in and die. Now let's try "Togekiss NP's, Zapdos switches in". You switch to your Fighter, and oh dear it's taken off half of your HP. "Togekiss NP's, Rotom-anything switches switches in" Well, STAB TBolt is still going to take a ton off your fighter,

Secondary type says hi. It's so easy to add a resistance when you don't have an ice weakness to cover. Fighting/Electric is flawless, but there are no good Ice-resisting Ground combination.

and if they're running, say, Overheat, I hope you've got the special defenses of Hariyama there.

As far as I know, Ground doesn't resist Fire either, but it is weak to Hydro Pump, Leaf Storm, Blizzard and also HP Grass/Ice that every electric type run to beat Grounds. Also, our CAP could very well have the bulk of Hariyama. BTW, don't be fooled by its high HP, it is less bulky on both SpD and Def that Snorlax is on Def. It seems so bulky because of it's good defensive typing.

Basically, not running Aura Sphere drastically lowers the damage dealing potential/usefulness of Togekiss.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't have many resistances, which prevents it from being defensive, which is important to it's core

Before saying that Fighting is a bad defensive typing, try to remember how bulky Machamp is, now look at its defensive stats, compare it to Salamence's while keeping in mind that Salamence has Intimidate and you'll understand my point. A few key resistances and no exploitable weakness is all it takes for a good defensive typing.

 

[KingEmpoleon]

Fighting/Electric is flawless, but there are no good Ice-resisting Ground combination.

Earthquake says hello. Togekiss switches in but most users have something to deal with it, such as Stone Edge. And does it resist Ice? No.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Maybe because Air Slash is really shitty STAB without Fighting move coverage? It'd make an incredibly predictable core, something like "Togekiss NP's, SpecsJolt switches in". Let's see, we can switch to our Fighter and take a ton of damage, or we can keep Togekiss in and die. Now let's try "Togekiss NP's, Zapdos switches in". You switch to your Fighter, and oh dear it's taken off half of your HP. "Togekiss NP's, Rotom-anything switches switches in" Well, STAB TBolt is still going to take a ton off your fighter, and if they're running, say, Overheat, I hope you've got the special defenses of Hariyama there. Basically, not running Aura Sphere drastically lowers the damage dealing potential/usefulness of Togekiss.

1) Air Slash is not shitty STAB, and while Fighting complements it best (hey there's an argument for making CAP11 Fighting!) something like Fire Blast or Shadow Ball or Wish or Baton Pass could be much more useful based on the rest of your team. We're making the Perfect Mate for Togekiss, not the Perfect Mate for One Specific Togekiss Set.

2) Powerful electric types give this core an issue, but I'd rather try to switch in on Specs Jolt than Gyarados, Kingdra, or Starmie, because at least Electric has commonly-spread immunities. Plus there are multiple ways we can alleviate the issue of Electric weakness, while there's just one real way to do so with Ground's bulky water weakness.

3) Not really sure why a Fighting-type would be afraid of Overheat...? But as long as we're talking about Rotom's special moves, let's consider Leaf Storm/Hydro Pump versus a Ground-type CAP11. Let's also consider what happens when SpecsJolt just uses HP Ice to guarantee that something in your core dies.

I'm not saying you don't have valid points. But your concerns regarding the possible downsides of a Fighting-type CAP pale in comparison to my, and others', concerns regarding a Ground-type CAP.

 

[EdgeHead]

Maybe because Air Slash is really shitty STAB without Fighting move coverage? It'd make an incredibly predictable core, something like "Togekiss NP's, SpecsJolt switches in". Let's see, we can switch to our Fighter and take a ton of damage, or we can keep Togekiss in and die. Now let's try "Togekiss NP's, Zapdos switches in". You switch to your Fighter, and oh dear it's taken off half of your HP. "Togekiss NP's, Rotom-anything switches switches in" Well, STAB TBolt is still going to take a ton off your fighter, and if they're running, say, Overheat, I hope you've got the special defenses of Hariyama there. Basically, not running Aura Sphere drastically lowers the damage dealing potential/usefulness of Togekiss.

Or, with the move slot saved by not needing Aura Sphere, you could run something like Shadow Ball which is just as effective, and even moreso against the Rotom forms.

EDIT: Whoops, beat me to it

 

[Venator]

It is relevant because Colossoil has everything we would give to Ground CAP to help Togekiss (Electric immunity and ability to remove Rotom, Gengar, Zapdos, Starmie...) and IS, in fact, Togekiss' greatest partner. However, it is also Gyarados' perfect partner for these very same reasons, despite being weak to Celebi and bulky waters. As "Gyarados minus its electric counters" is better than "Togekiss minus its electric counters", it's used with Gyara and not with Kiss. It is definitely relevant, not "because we already did it lol", but because it shows that the caracteristics that you want to give to CAP lead to a Gyarados partner.

This is what caught my attention.

Give CAP 11 Mold Breaker and then what happens? Rotom and Gengar switch out, that's what.

Also, as much as you want to compare Collosoil with CAP 11 (Ground), the only way that will happen is if it gains Dark as a secondary typing, gets massive HP and Attack and low defenses. Which is pretty much isn't going to get as it lures Fighting-types which Togekiss hates to switch into.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

This is what caught my attention.

Give CAP 11 Mold Breaker and then what happens? Rotom and Gengar switch out, that's what.

Also, as much as you want to compare Collosoil with CAP 11 (Ground), the only way that will happen is if it gains Dark as a secondary typing, gets massive HP and Attack and low defenses. Which is pretty much isn't going to get as it lures Fighting-types which Togekiss hates to switch into.

You really don't get my point. What makes Colossoil is its Electric immunity and ability to counter every Electric-types. That's what the Ground typing is trying to achieve, and also what Gyara loves. It doesn't have to trap them (Jolteon and zapdos aren't), forcing them out without taking any damage is already good enough to punish any usage of a Gyara counter by SR damage and momentum stealing.

 

[Venator]

You really don't get my point. What makes Colossoil is its Electric immunity and ability to counter every Electric-types. That's what the Ground typing is trying to achieve, and also what Gyara loves.

It's main attraction is taking the TBolt meant for Gyara and kill any fleeing Electric-type with STAB Pursuit with its massive attack. But Collosoil was not build to take hits. Collosoil is an all-out attacker with Taunt and Encore. His purpose: stop Pokemon from setting up and drag them down with him with Explosion or kill the fleeing Poke with Pursuit.

We are not talking about "making another Collosoil". We are talking about using the Ground-types Offensive/Defensive synergy with Togekiss to build the perfect mate for Togekiss.

Does it have to resist Stealth Rocks? Yes.
Does it have to have all of Collosoil's Physical and Support movepool? No, it doesn't.
Will it get Earthquake or Earth Power, depending on the stats? Yes, it will.

 

[peng]

I'm worried that this CAP will become so tailored to Togekiss that people will be able to predict a switch-in to Togekiss without it haven't even been sent out previously. Obviously we want to create a Pokemon that is mainly tailored to what Togekiss needs, but the way people seem to be going about this typing poll is 'if it helps any other Pokemon, we've failed this project'. This is a very poor mindset, as when you look at Pokemon such as Heatran, it has a very wind range of 'perfect mates'. Heatran + Celebi, Heatran + Machamp, Heatran + Gyarados, the list goes on, so making CAP11 a Perfect Mate exclusively for Togekiss is pretty out of reason.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm not a particularly huge fan of either of these main type options.

however, my choice between the two is pretty easy.

The dual weakness to ice is just too big of a weakness considering how prevalent ice attacks are.

FIGHTING gets my vote here

Plus, a No-Guard pokemon with fighting/electric typing has the juicy possibility of stab Zap-Cannon and Dynamic Punch

 

[Snow Leopard]

Rather than my previous vote, I believe a primary typing of Ground synergizes better with Togekiss because it attracts Grass types (fresh meat for Togekiss), it's entirely immune to Electric, and resists Rock, including the dangerous Stealth Rock.

 

[doominic77]

All the good types are dissapearing. First Poison wasn't in Poll 1 and now Electric isn't in Poll 2.

Anyway in voted for Fighting because Ground's Ice weakness could be crippling. Sure most Ice moves are unSTAB HP Ice but if they are weak than they will be weaker on fighting.

There are many strong Fighting moves that would benifit from STAB.

Sure Togekiss usually has Aura Sphere but it is not STABed. The Fighting type can take care of many of Togekiss' counters (etc. Tyranitar, Blissey).

Fighting doesn't take care of Rotom-A or Zapdos but a secondary type could take care of that (if thinking Ghost or Rock).

All these are the reasons that Fighting is the obvious choice.

 

[TubaKing]

I'm worried that this CAP will become so tailored to Togekiss that people will be able to predict a switch-in to Togekiss without it haven't even been sent out previously. Obviously we want to create a Pokemon that is mainly tailored to what Togekiss needs, but the way people seem to be going about this typing poll is 'if it helps any other Pokemon, we've failed this project'. This is a very poor mindset, as when you look at Pokemon such as Heatran, it has a very wind range of 'perfect mates'. Heatran + Celebi, Heatran + Machamp, Heatran + Gyarados, the list goes on, so making CAP11 a Perfect Mate exclusively for Togekiss is pretty out of reason.

But the point is to make sure that it is best paired with Togekiss and doesn't accidentally help something else out more.

 

[KingEmpoleon]

Plus, a No-Guard pokemon with fighting/electric typing has the juicy possibility of stab Zap-Cannon and Dynamic Punch

The main typing hasn't been decided yet let alone a secondary typing if any.
And I doubt No-Guard would be the ability on this.

 

[Deck Knight]

All the good types are dissapearing. First Poison wasn't in Poll 1 and now Electric isn't in Poll 2.

Anyway in voted for Fighting because Ground's Ice weakness could be crippling. Sure most Ice moves are unSTAB HP Ice but if they are weak than they will be weaker on fighting.

There are many strong Fighting moves that would benifit from STAB.

Sure Togekiss usually has Aura Sphere but it is not STABed. The Fighting type can take care of many of Togekiss' counters (etc. Tyranitar, Blissey).

Fighting doesn't take care of Rotom-A or Zapdos but a secondary type could take care of that (if thinking Ghost or Rock).

All these are the reasons that Fighting is the obvious choice.

Togekiss can already beat Tyranitar and Blissey with a set of Thunder Wave/Nasty Plot/Air Slash/Aura Sphere. Scarftar cannot switch in on T-Wave and all other variants cannot switch in on any of Thunder Wave, Nasty Plot, or Aura Sphere.

Blissey needs Toxic to stand even a chance against Kiss, as Air Slash can eventually flinchax it to death, and it can simply paralyze Blissey anytime it comes in again. It takes some time but it wins eventually.

In the meantime, Fighting loses to all of Togekiss' actual, not imagined counters. Starmie and Zapdos resist it, Rotom-A And Gengar are immune to it.

Fighting's redundancy is a weakness, not a strength. "It helps with 4MSS!" is a ridiculous argument. Flying/Fighting is good coverage. Forcing Togekiss to switch out and CAP11 to take a hit is not synergy. In fact it's the opposite of synergy because if Togekiss comes in again it might have to eat SR. Having a fighting type partner is not going to reduce the allure of Aura Sphere on a Plot set.

 

[dxiyczk]

All i know is that if CaP11 isn't normal/flying, then it needs to have sturdy or else both it and Kiss will be OHKO'd by sheer cold.

Voted for fighting because a core weak to bulky waters is not a core. also, fighting pokemon for mad cool dojos. also fighting has to punch, even to ward off the enemies.

 

[GraffnTrix]

Togekiss does not "handle [ice attacks] just fine", please do some calcs before posting things like that.

Life Orb Starmie 2hkos even max HP Togekiss with Surf -> Ice Beam. CM Suicune 2hkos the same Togekiss with Ice Beam at +1 if defensive, and ohkos if offensive. Even Vaporeon with no special attack investment KOs with Surf -> Ice Beam. Again, this is all max HP Togekiss, a sweeping Togekiss does even poorer.

People are severely overestimating Togekiss's defensive capabilities, and if you vote Ground based on that you're going to feel a bit silly when any simple bulky water shuts down this core.

Anyway, I don't want to start threadhogging, so this will be my last post here. Please think about your vote. That's all.

That would be a viable argument, but we're talking about a Togekiss. Switch in Togekiss after a death fodder, and we can take an Ice Beam, we Thunder Wave, then Roost while we're faster/on the switch.

 

[KingEmpoleon]

All i know is that if CaP11 isn't normal/flying, then it needs to have sturdy or else both it and Kiss will be OHKO'd by sheer cold.

Voted for fighting because a core weak to bulky waters is not a core. also, fighting pokemon for mad cool dojos. also fighting has to punch, even to ward off the enemies.

Eh, what is this I don't even..

It's posts like these that make me just go "what?"

Several things wrong:
1) It's not gonna be Normal/Flying.
2) OHKO Clause says hello.
3) "Fighting pokemon for mad cool dojos" is NOT a reason.
4) Punching doesn't have anything to do with it.

 

[Chateau]

Let me say this again: Why. Is. Togekiss. Switching. In. On. Ice Beam/Surf?

Because Ground CAP11 can't handle it. Neither can, so the core would be pretty severely flawed.


I voted for Fighting because while it doesn't offer the better defensive synergy, it offers better offensive synergy, which is the more important for this CAP.
As for the possiblity of becoming Collosoil 2, the CAP's description so far (should Ground be chosen) certainly smells like it. I'm sure we'd do our best to prevent that, but even with entirely different movepools, it would be a slow, bulky, Ground type hellbent on killing Rotom, Ttar, and Blissey. That's fine, if it fits the concept, but it would be boring and redundant.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Maybe because Air Slash is really shitty STAB without Fighting move coverage? It'd make an incredibly predictable core, something like "Togekiss NP's, SpecsJolt switches in". Let's see, we can switch to our Fighter and take a ton of damage, or we can keep Togekiss in and die. Now let's try "Togekiss NP's, Zapdos switches in". You switch to your Fighter, and oh dear it's taken off half of your HP. "Togekiss NP's, Rotom-anything switches switches in" Well, STAB TBolt is still going to take a ton off your fighter, and if they're running, say, Overheat, I hope you've got the special defenses of Hariyama there. Basically, not running Aura Sphere drastically lowers the damage dealing potential/usefulness of Togekiss.

How the hell is Aura Sphere supposed to take care of Zapdos and Rotom?

I voted Fighting. A previous post mentioned that "Togekiss isn't low OU because of its electric weakness; it's low OU because of movepool syndrome. A Fighting partner takes Aura Sphere off of Kiss's moveset, which gives us a lot more options.

 

[UncleSam]

No electric...O well....

Voted Ground because 'Kiss has Aura Sphere already, making Fighting STAB redundant and meaningless. Maybe people don't realize this, but between TWave, Roost, and awesome Special Defense, Togekiss can swallow the average unSTABed HP Ice or even Ice Beam, even if STAB Ice Beams are problematic.

As for Blissey...why even bring it up when 'Kiss can beat it easily assuming it isn't carrying one move...TWave. You know what type on CAP11 might encourage Blissey to think twice before TWaving to it's heart's content against 'Kiss? That's right, Ground.

Offensively, Fighting neuters CAP11 from helping Togekiss at all. Sure it's slightly better defensively (argubly, at least), but not by much, and with all of the Zapdos that will be flying around in the post-Latias and potentially post-Mence era, having a safe switch off of Thunderbolt is far more important than eating an HP Ice, particularly when paired with Blissey not wanting to TWave with a ground type CAP11 in the wings.

 

[Maru]

I picked Fighting because of the fact it has much better synergy with T-Kiss the whole point of this is to make a pokemon that compliments T-Kiss' weaknesses and strengths, which ground simply does not it is threatened by too many pokemon having to watch out for HP Ice, the whole of Bulky Water types, and allowing pokemon to easily set up on it, Skarmory being a major concern of mine due to being able to use SR and pummel Cap11(ground) into the ground with stabed Brave Bird and very likely 2HKOing T-Kiss on a switch. Unless Cap11(Ground) is a staller with good defenses it really won't be helping T-Kiss much.

 

[Deck Knight]

I picked Fighting because of the fact it has much better synergy with T-Kiss the whole point of this is to make a pokemon that compliments T-Kiss' weaknesses and strengths, which ground simply does not it is threatened by too many pokemon having to watch out for HP Ice, the whole of Bulky Water types, and allowing pokemon to easily set up on it, Skarmory being a major concern of mine due to being able to use SR and pummel Cap11(ground) into the ground with stabed Brave Bird and very likely 2HKOing T-Kiss on a switch. Unless Cap11(Ground) is a staller with good defenses it really won't be helping T-Kiss much.

What, exactly is Fighting's synergy with Togekiss? It lures in everything Togekiss dispises and fails to deal decent damage to them to boot. Fighting lures in Starmie, Gyarados, Rotom-A, Gengar, Zapdos, Salamence (if it isn't made Uber soon), basically everything Togekiss cannot pivot to.

Will someone please explain to me what synergy Fighting has? HP Ice is ridiculous. You know what does more damage than Zapdos HP Ice/Grass to a Ground CAP 11? Zapdos Thunderbolt to a Fighting CAP 11.

"Resists SR" is it. Period. It's redundant with Togekiss' existing coverage. Saying it removes the need for Aura Sphere is specious, since the entire point in having the coverage to avoid needing to switch out when something walls your Flying STAB.

Togekiss already has ways around both Tyranitar and Blissey. It's one of the few special attackers that can make such a claim, yet still people are saying it has "better synergy." Perhaps I have the wrong understanding of synergy, but whatever it is, Togekiss and Fighting don't have it.

 

[Griffin Rich]

I voted Fighting myself. As mentioned before, I have a really bad feeling that if ground pulls through, we'd see a Collosoil 2.0. I also feel that the Aura Sphere redundancy outweighs the potential of a CAP redundancy.
I also agree with the fact that Fighting types could be substantially bulkier than anyone realizes. With Flying and Psychic as weaknesses, a good secondary typing could mean we have a monster on our hands.
If fighting gets picked, I'll push Fighting/Electric to the end, as we would have something that is weak only to psychic and ground, and has huge possibilities to mesh with Togekiss.

 

[cim]

I think Fighting type is the wrong type for this CAP. Fighting is a pretty bad typing for helping Togekiss with the threats it cares about. People jump and see "oh, Blissey and Tyranitar" while seemingly forgetting that Togekiss could care less about either of these Pokemon. In addition, a defensive Fighting type is far more likely to be a good Pokemon "on its own" than Ground is simply because there are so many Ground types in Pokemon. I also disagree with picking Fighting because Ground would be too good of a companion typing. Nerfs can come at the movepool and stat level, they don't have to start here.

I strongly recommend Ground as a primary typing. It has the most potential for dealing with Rotom-A, Zapdos, Aerodactyl, Metagross, and Jirachi. Ground resists Stealth Rock and covers two of Togekiss's weaknesses. While it "shares" an Ice weakness, Togekiss shrugs off all special OU Ice attacks without much thought anyway. I honestly think this is a no brainer and that picking Fighting because of stuff like Blissey and Tyranitar, or picking Fighting because it takes Aura Sphere off Togekiss's moveset to make room for other stuff, is using logic that fundamentally misjudges Togekiss as a whole. (On top of that, Rotom-A and Zapdos are threats because of STAB AND speed, so you can't claim they only lose because of moveslot syndrome or something)

 

[Chateau]

What, exactly is Fighting's synergy with Togekiss? It lures in everything Togekiss dispises and fails to deal decent damage to them to boot. Fighting lures in Starmie, Gyarados, Rotom-A, Gengar, Zapdos, Salamence (if it isn't made Uber soon), basically everything Togekiss cannot pivot to.

Ground STAB doesn't deal with any of those. Also, luring in Kiss' counters is sufficient if we give it means to beat them.

And can someone please explain how having a Ground STAB deals with Rotom-A?