CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 5 - Flavor Ability Discussion

[MLaRF]

Alright folks, here's what I would say:
Liquid Ooze would be a cool ability, easily representing either the nectar from the flower or its ectoplasm. It wouldn't be that good, because she's already immune to Drain Punch and resists Giga Drain, so there's not going to be any real threat of making it a niche ability in any way.
I'll also add in Gluttony because those venus fly traps and corpse flowers an' stuff are always just loafin' around with their mouths open, waitin' fer the food to just fall in. Could possibly create a niche set with Belly Drum, but then she gets Sucker Punched and it's all made useless.

 

[Stratos]

How about Sticky Hold?

It fits perfectly with the Pokedex data, and the idea of a Venus Flytrap.

 

[gonodactylus]

I really want Poison Point as the ability. Cute charm is still haxy and people don't really care about regular poison..

Another really good ability for this gal is... Damp it's uncompetitive, and plants are swampy and damp.

Edit: it also reflects upon trollfreak

Edit2: cursed body is also good, while slightly more competitive

 

[ShiningFire]

Ok, so as we all know Flower Gift and Levitate, which seems like the best option were deemed too competitive, since we voted on that. I say that the ability we give it should be able to be used competitively in certain cases. For example, Anger Point would be a good one. I used to use a team that centered around faster ice type pokemon using ice breath on a Tauros with Anger Point, maxing out its attack while I sent in other pokemon to use Follow Me and Rage Powder. However, Anger Point would not have been useful outside of that situation.

Other abilities like this, in my opinion are Telepathy, Heatproof, Cursed Body, Poison Point, Sap Sipper, Water Absorb,Sticky Hold, Shield, Unburden, Dry Skin, Aftermath, Anticipation, Liquid Ooze, Filter, and Shed Skin.
That's MY opinion, probably not the best, probably not the worst.

 

[riekku]

I think Damp might be a good choice...it's a ghost...lol. Yes...plants are damp.

Justified could be good...as it gets KO'ed by dark types. It could be a miko of justice...

Forewarn might be good...though it could be useful which is not what we want. Miko's can read the wind or something. Anticipation? Frisk?

uh...Honey Gather....plants gather honey...? Or Stench...since it's a dead plant?

Unnerve is a good suggestion from the past posts. You don't wanna eat berries in front of this mon. She's gonna steal your berries just like wacan gyarados.

I like Pressure but it can stall...so I'm not sure.

(and btw, is anyone else super-happy that their vote actually counted in art poll 3? lol...Yay for democracy.)

 

[reachzero]

I'm hearing a lot of abilities mentioned that I'm pretty sure are competitive....Forewarn is the one that is coming up the most. The strange thing about Forewarn is that it is actually much MORE competitive for this CAP than it would be even for other Pokemon. If two CAP2 switch in at the same time, they would tip off what the highest base power attack on the set is--and if is Power Whip, you know it is not Quiver Dancing, and if it is Sacred Fire you know it will not be using Shell Smash, etc. (yes, that could happen if Leaf Blade is allowed and Power Whip is not, for whatever reason...). This is completely disregarding other possible uses, like seeing whether Heatran has Fire Blast or Lava Plume, checking Salamence for Draco Meteor, Dragonite for Outrage or Dragon Claw, etc. Forewarn may not be a great ability for this CAP, but surely it is a competitive one.

On the other hand, these would be the abilities I would consider noncompetitive for this.

Hide

Damp
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Keen Eye
Minus
Plus
Liquid Ooze
Magma Armor
Oblivious
Pickup
Run Away
Soundproof
Big Pecks
Cute Charm
Friend Guard
Gluttony
Healer
Heavy Metal
Light Metal
Tangled Feet
Telepathy

Of those, I like the idea of Damp and Tangled Feet the best, mostly because they are most evocative of a moist plant and of having roots, respectively.

 

[erisia]

But giving it Water Absorb would make it immune to Burns from Scald... that would be competitive. :p

I'm all for Anticipation since flytraps have those little hairs on the inside of its mouth that let it detect insects. It's tenuous but I think it's a pretty good suggestion. If that's too competitive then Speed Boost Cute Charm is also pretty cool.

 

[CuteandScary]

I am opposed to Cute Charm because it gives a chance of attraction which would be a bitch to deal for the opponent and gives Cap some free chances of set up. Also could we get a list of non-competitive abilities?

 

[riekku]

OMG reachzero...Big Pecks?!?!?!?

Isn't that super-competitive?:naughty:

okay. Sorry for that little outburst.

I'll go back to reading my tsundere mangas nao...

Btw..I think Scrappy might be a good choice. Miko's can sense and hit ghosts..so. Besides...we have ghost stab to hit ghosts and don't need fighting moves to hit them.

 

[Birkal]

Dang, reachzero brings up an excellent point about Forewarn. It would neuter the non-predictability factor that we're trying to give CAP2 via Sketch Artist, in my opinion. It's pretty shocking that we didn't give any anticipation for the results of such an ability.

Also, I like the idea of Healer because it fits our current design moderately well. In Yilx's supporting material, he eluded to the fact that other Pokemon come to CAP2 in search of communicating with spirits. Perhaps through this channeling, she can heal those around her: healing their current status conditions and their hearts. It only heals the status of partners in doubles and triples, so it has no place competitively. However, I'd imagine that CAP2 enjoys healing the hearts of those around her (Yilx mentioned that she generally means well).

 

[jas61292]

That is a good point reachzero brings up, however I think that should be taken with a grain of salt, at least depending on how we are trying to make this Pokemon. It is very true that it may actually have mild use, but the fact is it would only ever be useful because everyone is going to be using CAP2 during the playtest. In a standard stabilized metagame that would be the end product, it would indeed be quite useless. But in the playtest, where its usage percentage will be off the charts, it could be quite useful. It really depends on which one of those two we should be focusing on: a real developed metagame, or the fake underdeveloped one we get for two weeks at the end.

That being said, the usefulness even in the playtest is debatable, as it requires you to switch your own CAP2 into the opponent, not the other way around, and unless you both switch at the same time, you already give your opponent a free turn. Also, with Ghost's self weakness, you probably just sacrificed your own CAP2 to learn what the opponent is doing, and by that point it may already be apparent anyways.

 

[Tobes]

Personally I feel that Keen Eye fits since she's a copy mon and carninvore, but I could also get behind Pickup (for the same reason as Keen Eye) or Telepathy.

 

[Weebos]

Of all the stated abilities I think Stench stands out the most to me. Nothing says Stench like a dead (assumed rotting) plant.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

reach raises an interesting point about Forewarn, but I still am not convinced that it is an issue. Interestingly, his list of non-competitive abilities is a lot shorter than what I probably would be okay with. I don't think things like Pressure are really doing anything major for CAP 2, and generally don't think that the ability has to have zero competitive use. I'd consider minor but otherwise unhelpful abilities sufficient for flavor purposes.

Forewarn may provide marginally useful information about Heatran (if you're insane enough to switch into it with CAP 2) or Salamence (which if you're switching CAP 2 into, you're already too late for Forewarn's information to be useful) or Dragonite's STAB, but I don't think it's useful enough information. The most useful situation for Forewarn is if two opposing CAP 2 double switch into each other or one attempts to revenge another. This would indeed reveal the set. However, in the case of the revenge kill, I think the opponent will have already used their key move, and in the double switch case, I don't think it'll happen enough in practice to merit real concern.

Regardless, I'll think about this more and see if maybe my opinion changes.

 

[reachzero]

By the way, there IS a counterargument against Cute Charm being uncompetitive:

1. If CAP2 is not mono-gendered, Cute Charm could actually activate and manifest a very powerful competitive effect.
2. If CAP2 is mono-gendered, it will cause good players to use all Pokemon of the same gender as CAP2.
3. If CAP2 causes good players to use all Pokemon of the same gender, it makes Rivalry Nidoqueen(-king) and Rivalry Haxorus disproportionately powerful.

Conclusion: Cute Charm is truly noncompetitive only if CAP2 is a genderless Pokemon.

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

I personally feel that White Smoke would be a nice one, but I'm unsure of just how 'flavour' it would be at the moment, considering that it has Sketch.
Outside of that, I either would consider Cute Charm, or Mold Breaker. Both of which are relatively useless on the thing.

Reachzero does raise a good point about how everybody might start using pokemon of the same gender, but it's also true that the ability would become totally useless if that happened; Nobody would use that ability.

Rivalry Haxorus is already pretty ridiculous anyway, at least on simulators. I don't think it would effect it TOO much anyway. And Nidoqueen/king... I don't have any experience with that one. Please leave a message after the beep.

Rivalry also raises a possibility for a flavour ability, as if it IS mono-F, and since we're only going to see it on simulators... But it doesn't fit too well.

 

[Temperantia]

I'm putting support behind Infiltrator and Forewarn namely for the reasons above.

Forewarn evokes so much of the flavor behind CAP2. The Pokemon is a freaking medium, of course the spirits will warn her of impending danger (especially if she's as friendly as it appears.)

Infiltrator works because it really plays off her yandere design. Can't you just see her, sneaking into places... maybe your house... just to be with you?
0_0

Other acceptable options would be Pressure or possibly Anger Point. Pressure because, well, its pretty much the default "intimidating presence" ability. Anger Point for invoking the image of "Miko" enraged by an attack in typical yandere fashion.


One ability suggestion I'm not a fan of is Telepathy. Spirit channeling=/=telepathy. Please, leave it to the Psychic-types...

 

[Tobes]

Just noting that Pressure and Anger Point would be very competitive on a SubSeed set.

EDIT: Just found out that Anger Point no longer works behind Sub, but a potential +6 off switching into a weak move that crits is kinda silly on something like this imo

 

[capefeather]

Well, when the first ability vote came up, I interpreted "negligible competitive ability" as an ability that wouldn't drastically alter the concept. I didn't vote for it, but that's how I interpreted it. Because of this, I have a fundamental disagreement with the use of small situations to "prove" that an ability isn't appropriate for consideration. I say this because I don't want people to think that recent developments here gave me pause and forced me to come up with this interpretation. I thought this going in. The reason for my interpretation is simple: it opens up most of the minor abilities that wouldn't have been considered in the previous ability discussion because they didn't fit the concept. I think that, this way, we get more variety and gain something that's closer to what everyone wants.

Back to the discussion, I'm sticking with Oblivious, Unnerve and Forewarn. I think they fit the design very well, more than others, and the other two I'd mentioned were admittedly a bit more trolly than we might actually want.

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

Looking at the Pokemon, the first few things that come to mind are Overgrow and Pickpocket. Pickpocket in particular jumps out to me as a rather poor ability that a venus flytrap and ghost Pokemon really feels flavorful. I'd aslo say Intimidate, but thats obviously too competitve.

 

[verbatim]

By the way, there IS a counterargument against Cute Charm being uncompetitive:

1. If CAP2 is not mono-gendered, Cute Charm could actually activate and manifest a very powerful competitive effect.
2. If CAP2 is mono-gendered, it will cause good players to use all Pokemon of the same gender as CAP2.
3. If CAP2 causes good players to use all Pokemon of the same gender, it makes Rivalry Nidoqueen(-king) and Rivalry Haxorus disproportionately powerful.

Conclusion: Cute Charm is truly noncompetitive only if CAP2 is a genderless Pokemon.

While it is obvious that Cute Charm has some competitive aspect, (no movement half the time) I would like to argue against this.

Only physical attackers will benefit from the switch to the feminine side (something lots of people already do). Add this onto the 30% chance (assuming you survive) that Cute Charm even activates, and it becomes slightly competitive in the vein of say, Unnerve blocking Lum from blocking Spore. Weather or not this is too much to be considered negligible is debatable, but it's close enough that people will go both ways.

EDIT: While point three may be sensical in the initial testing period, (when practically every team runs Sketchmona) afterwords people will most likely run Male (and possibly even during) on the basis of a 30% chance of infatuation triggered by a physical attack that doesn't faint being less threatening than giving Haxorus an attack boost.

 

[PoJ]

I think Infiltrator would fit this CAP nicely. I do like the idea of Forewarn more, but Reachzero makes a good point in that it can be pretty helpful sometimes.

Telepathy seems like a nice idea as well because CAP 2 can speak with spirits or something like that.

Stench also comes to mind because CAP 2 is a dead plant and stench has no competitive value. Damp too, since CAP 2 is a plant, and I would imagine most plants are damp.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Okay, due to popular demand, I went through every ability in the game and, using my current feelings, created a list of the negligibly competitive abilities that we could give to CAP 2 in this poll. Note that the entry with an asterisk (*) is not allowed for the first ability because it could theoretically soft ban CAP 2 in its own metagame.

I will also post this list to the OP for reference and update it as my feelings change.

Anticipation
Big Pecks
Cute Charm
Damp
Forewarn
Friend Guard
Gluttony
Healer
Heavy Metal
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Infiltrator
Keen Eye
Light Metal
Liquid Ooze
Magma Armor
Minus
Moody*
Oblivious
Own Tempo
Pickup
Plus
Pressure
Run Away
Soundproof
Sticky Hold
Swarm
Tangled Feet
Telepathy
Torrent
Unnerve

 

[Mr. Mysterious]

Are you sure that moody is very non-competitive, Rising Dusk?

It seems to me like that can make a very useful ability, namely on a support set. On top of that, CAP2's base stats are enough of a mixed bag to make it usually be a positive change.
I wouldn't put moody on the thing at all, because it seems like it could be very nice. Though, it IS a bit gimmicky.
I personally feel that we should've judged the moveset before judging the ability. None the less, moody doesn't seem like a good secondary ability for it at all.

Granted, nobody would actually use it due to a heavy reliance that the game's hax would work in their favor. Which we all know hardly ever happens.

 

[Stratos]

also it's banned yeah