CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 6 - Counters Discussion

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canno

formerly The Reptile
Ferrothorn could be an almost 100% counter unless Sketchy uses a Fire-type move or Sketchy gets a bunch of boost under his belt, and if it runs TWave it can destroy SS variants. Other boosting sets could do better, but they will most definitely not like being paralyzed.
 
I'm dubious to whether this will pose as a threat but what about Arcanine? Arcanine has intimidate which lowers CAP2's physical prowess, fire typing to take in Sacred Fire (let alone Flash Fire), and STAB Flare Blitz as well as Will-o-wisp to threaten CAP2. If CAP2 were to forgo a stat-booster for coverage, Arcanine will be able to outspeed and possibly OHKO CAP2. However, this is all dependent on whether CAP2 will depend on Sacred Fire and revolve on a physical set.

I apologize for the lack of calcs. I hope someone else can provide.
 
I saw the exact post and thought it WASNT a reliable check lol.

But that is assumed +2 so i guess youre right
Yes, but the calcs that Gliscor deals back shows that a standard Gliscor would be 2HKO'ed and would be dealing back a 3HKO. And it has to switch in, so setup is likly.

However, it is assumeing Power Whip, which I highly doubt will get onto the final movepool. [Although Wood Hammer might, due to recoil]
 
Ferrothorn is a pretty decent check/counter, depending on the moveset. Grass and Ghost are not very effective to it, and as the ability poll decided against immunity or limber, it is susceptible to Toxic and Thunder Wave. It does, however, has an issue with fighting or fire type attacks.

Forretress
is another one that resists stabs,but dislikes fire. It can set up a round of hazards and use Toxic to prevent it from being complete set-up bait.

As said by others before me, Skarmory takes anything that's not a fire attack like a boss. It too can set up hazards, phaze with whirlwind if it sets up or toxic it/Brave Bird it in the face.

Jirachi takes CaP2's stabs easily, but doesn't like fire either. On a Rain team, Jirachi will counter/check CaP2 pretty good, because Jirachi doesn't realy care about fighting type attacks anyway.

All the above fear fire attacks, which means if it goes for a moveset with a sketched V-Create or Sacred Fire, Heatran will wall it to no end. It will also punish it with STAB super effective fire attacks. However, Heatran is heavily hindered by Rain. It's attacks will lose half their power in a bang. Heatran is therefore not perfect. Then again, perfection is not necesarry. The likelyhood of someone using CaP2 in Rain with a fire attack is also very small.

Hydreigon is another pokemon that doesn't care about fire, but it's afraid of fighting type attacks. Mach Punch will be available through Sketch, but I asume there will be relatively few stat boosting moves to go with that. Hydreigon can threaten it with STAB Dark Pulse or Fire attack in the sun.

Dragonite is the one true counter to this thing. Multiscale is quite posibly the best ability in the game, and Dragonite's usage stats in regular OU seem to show what it does for a pokemon. Even with something like Ice Punch or Icicle Drop, CaP2 will fail to ohko. It will be outspead after a quick Dragon Dance and suffer from Outrage or Fire Punch in sun.

Gliscor has been popping up in the comments, and I agree that it can use Toxic/Fling/Ice Fang on CaP2 and then heal back through Poison Heal and Sub/Protect. I hate that set in general, and I think it will serve as a good check to CaP2, but lacking a great way to fight back outside of Ice Fang makes me weary. If you go for an annoying Gliscor anyway, you might allready run Toxic anyway.

Scizor does a fair job at punishing CaP2 too, with Choice Band U-Turn into Heatran or something like that, it can actually give CaP2 a run for it's money. As does actually anything with U-Turn and decent attack (Landorus, Mienshao, Darmanitan and Zapdos all learn U-turn, have good attack stats and can outspeed CaP2).

This is what just pops up when I see the stats of CaP2 and the pokemon that can serve a roll other than pure CaP2 counter.

EDIT: I just came up with a good one: Salamence. It has Intimidate and resists Grass and Ghost. It will suffer heavily from any Ice attack, but it outspeeds CaP2, so when it's in, it can threaten CaP2. Crunch, Fire Blast or Fire Fang will do some good damage. I don't have calcs yet, they might come later, depending on my schedule.
 

Asylum_Rhapsody

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So is it then safe for us to assume that, if Sketch is used for a coverage move, that move will most likely be...

1) A powerful Fire-type move like V-Create or Sacred Fire to deal with Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, Jirachi, Scizor.
2) A powerful Ice-type move like Icicle Crash or Ice Beam to deal with Hydreigon, Dragonite, Gliscor, Salamence.
3) A powerful Dragon-type move to deal with Hydreigon, Dragonite, Salamence.
4) A powerful Fighting-type move like Aura Sphere, Hi Jump Kick, Sacred Sword to deal with Ferrothorn, Heatran, Hydreigon.

Further possibilities include a powerful Ground-type move to deal with Heatran, Jirachi; a powerful Water-type move to deal with Heatran, Gliscor; a powerful Rock-type move to deal with Dragonite, Salamence. However, none of these have coverage as good as the other four above, so I don't think that they will see nearly as much use. With that in mind, would Sketchy, if going for a coverage move, have sufficiently good reason to with with anything other than a Fire, Ice, Dragon, or Fighting attack?
 
It'll nearly never be Ice unless specifically targeting Dragonite or Gliscor or some such. It would also never run Dragon, since it's always inferior to the other options. Fighting hits Hydreigon as strong as Ice does, and Fighting also hits Heatran super effectively and Skarmory neutrally. Fire is also attractive as it hits Jirachi and Skarmory super effectively, though it then leaves CAP 2 walled by Heatran.
 

Asylum_Rhapsody

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I wasn't too sure about Dragon myself but thought I might include it anyway because of its abundance of powerful attacks in general. Still, it makes sense that it and Ice wouldn't be nearly as popular as the other two. So then, if Sketchy uses Sketch for a coverage move, it will most likely be for a Fire-type move or a Fighting-type move, yes? As such, it seems that Dragonite is going to be the most reliable counter. I think that Ice-type might see some use because of that, but that depends on how important it becomes to have a more reliable counter to Sketchy.
 
So yeah...AFROBULL will be a counter, no?

It ain't 'fraid of ghosts and it sips your sap...

So no fighting move = cock-blocked by bouffalant? Not to mention Sawsbuck...

Yeah...I know this is rather sad of me, as Bouffalant is NU...but still...
 
Idk on that, but a bulky normal-type might do well at walling sketchy. Granted, most of them have the misfortune of having their STAB negated. (annnd i noticed that there are none of that in OU. Miltank seems solid enough though. Outspeeds and has access to scrappy.)

Tangrowth and other Bulky Grass types can wall, but quite a few would have to contend with a sketched Fire move or HP-Fire.

Really though the typing is something else. Types with STAB on it(dark, flying, fire, and ice. Ghost is weak vs ghost) do not tend to be bulky outside one or two. So finding something that can be a 3hko in those types might be a little hard. But one 'mon I haven't heard mentioned is scrafty. Decent bulk, netural to sketchy's STAB, and it's got some decent abilities. Only thing that might hold it back is the low speed and set-up, but it has two nice options for that in dragon dance and bulk up.
 
I believe Mandibuzz will be a great counter since it resists Cap 2's main stab moves and is neutral to Fire and Fighting, two move types that most Cap 2 will be having. Staraptor would also be a good choice to quickly take down Cap 2.
 
What about Infernape?

Resists Grass STAB, neutral to Ghost and resists Fire. Can hit back with a strong Overheat or Flare Blitz and bounce away with a neutral U-Turn into another counter.

Such as LO Weavile.

If it chooses not to go with a physical ghost move it could also run into trouble with Bulk-Up Gallade carrying Shadow Sneak.

Actually considering it, it runs into more checks and counters in the UU/RU environs than it does in OU (such as Houndoom, Empoleon, Honchkrow, Drapion etc - basically dark types and steels).
 

DarkSlay

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Hi all, just checking in. I'm surprised that no one's really mentioned Volcarona as a decent check to CAP2. Volcarona naturally is immune to burns, has Fire STAB and a Special Attack stat that rivals Heatran, and is faster than CAP2. It 4x resists Grass attacks, giving it a few opportunities to come in on a few moves. It is neutral to Ghost, as well as to anticipated Fire and Ground attacks. It also resists Fighting attacks.

Looking at specific sets, Substitute Volcarona seems to be the biggest threat to most potential CAP2 sets. It's naturally faster than CAP2, so even if it comes in on, say, a Leech Seed, it forces CAP2 to retreat. And, of course, 135 SpA stats with STAB Fire attacks will more often than not OHKO CAP2. To me, on the right team, Volcarona could be as viable as Heatran as a check for CAP2. It just needs to watch out for boosted physical Ghost attacks and (I guess) sketched Rock attacks or HP Rock.
 

Birkal

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I agree with a lot of what has been said in this topic, so I'm not going to play a broken record. However, in the same vein as DarkSlay's post, I would recommend that Sun teams in general will give CAP2 significant problems. Super-Effective STAB-type moves under sunlight are going to hurt no matter which way you look at it. Furthermore, Chlorophyll abusers can switch into Grass-type attacks, which consequentially gives them a turn to set up. CAP2 will have to run Max Speed / +Speed to outrun Venusaur under the sunlight at +2, while Venusaur can do plenty of damage in return with Hidden Power Fire (with its nifty 100 SpD to boot). Ninetales also poses as a semi-threat for CAP2 with boosted Fire-type moves, considerably Higher Speed, and moderate Special Defense.
 
CAP2 will have to run Max Speed / +Speed to outrun Venusaur under the sunlight at +2, while Venusaur can do plenty of damage in return with Hidden Power Fire (with its nifty 100 SpD to boot). Ninetales also poses as a semi-threat for CAP2 with boosted Fire-type moves, considerably Higher Speed, and moderate Special Defense.
You do realize most sets for Sketchy will be physical, right?


@Darkslay: I understand what you're getting at, Darkslay, but I don't believe most Volcarona users would really ever try to use it as a counter or check to CAP2. The fire moth doesn't take 120 Atk Earthquake, Shadow Claw or Sacred Fire terribly well, especially after a +1 or +2 boost. In addition, there's Volc's SR weakness, meaning it won't want to be switching in unless absolutely necessary and it definitely won't if it can't take Sketchy's hit at 50%.
 
You do realize most sets for Sketchy will be physical, right?


@Darkslay: I understand what you're getting at, Darkslay, but I don't believe most Volcarona users would really ever try to use it as a counter or check to CAP2. The fire moth doesn't take 120 Atk Earthquake, Shadow Claw or Sacred Fire terribly well, especially after a +1 or +2 boost. In addition, there's Volc's SR weakness, meaning it won't want to be switching in unless absolutely necessary and it definitely won't if it can't take Sketchy's hit at 50%.
I still believe that only heatran and hydreigon will be able to deal with sketchy. Why? Why not dragonite?

Because half the time he will be running a fire move, and the god of all fire moves (physical) is scared fire. yea. even better than V-Create.

Why?

It has a 50% burn rate. That is higher than the chance of Focus Blast hittin twice, so its not THAT rare. All dragonites will be scared as fuck to come in on a potential burn.
 
From the counters discussion I've seen so far, I've noticed that nearly all of the pokemon are succeptible to electric attacks, which makes it far safer to sketch if you want to cover neutral bases all around.
 

verbatim

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The thing is, when you say susceptible, you mean neutral. Also when we talk about Physical Electric attacks we either have to chose between Volt Tackle (recoil is bad) or Bolt Strike (missing is worse).
 
You do realize most sets for Sketchy will be physical, right?


@Darkslay: I understand what you're getting at, Darkslay, but I don't believe most Volcarona users would really ever try to use it as a counter or check to CAP2. The fire moth doesn't take 120 Atk Earthquake, Shadow Claw or Sacred Fire terribly well, especially after a +1 or +2 boost. In addition, there's Volc's SR weakness, meaning it won't want to be switching in unless absolutely necessary and it definitely won't if it can't take Sketchy's hit at 50%.
Quiver Dance is just as viable as Gear Shift (or Swords Dance in a different case) when referring to CAP2's offensive potential. For that reason, I don't see why it shouldn't be considered, especially given that the Pokemon in the OP can be disregarded as checks and counters with a moveset change. Chlorophyll sweepers, while not the bulkiest Pokemon currently existing, can switch into and immediately threaten CAP2 with a KO or setup. Unfortunately, none of them boast the bulk needed to tank three Power Whips or at least two unboosted Shadow Claws (assuming that it's going to be CAP2's best physical Ghost STAB), leaving them as simple checks to Quiver and Swords Dance. That said, bulky Volcarona can least switch into Adamant LO Shadow Claw (48% max) and Power Whip multiple times, threatening with a STAB Fire Blast or Quiver Dance; in fact, Volcarona doesn't need Fire Blast, as Firey Dance comes very close to an OHKO without SR. If CAP2 is running Leftovers instead, it loses a substantial amount of power, turning even Shiftry into a pretty good check to Gear Shift.

*Note* I'm assuming Grass/Ghost/Fire|Fighting as CAP2's attack coverage for its boosting sets.

I'd like to get into what can keep the the inevitable support (defensive) sets in check as well as the offensive ones. (RestTalk) Gyarados can absorb a Spore and doesn't mind tanking a couple of Power Whips with Intimidate. Gyarados also has the ability reliably to check most physically offensive sets, save (crappy) Sacred Fire burns; Gyarados can soak up a couple of Power Whips, OHKO with Bounce, phaze with Dragon Tail / Roar, or even paralyze CAP2 with an unexpected Thunder Wave. Kyurem seems like another good check to CAP2, just evading the 2HKO from Shadow Claw with a bit of Defense investment and obviously OHKOing back with Ice Beam. Kyurem naturally outpaces this CAP as well, meaning that it doesn't really mind switching into a Leech Seed either.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
The thing is, when you say susceptible, you mean neutral. Also when we talk about Physical Electric attacks we either have to chose between Volt Tackle (recoil is bad) or Bolt Strike (missing is worse).
We also have the reliable safe option Fusion Bolt (100% accuracy and 100 BP). In fact, if Sketchy wants to use an Electric physical attack, I think Fusion Bolt is the main choice (unless it doesn't mind the lower accuracy of Bolt Strike or the recoil from Volt Tackle, which imo is the worst option out of the three)
 

DarkSlay

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@Darkslay: I understand what you're getting at, Darkslay, but I don't believe most Volcarona users would really ever try to use it as a counter or check to CAP2. The fire moth doesn't take 120 Atk Earthquake, Shadow Claw or Sacred Fire terribly well, especially after a +1 or +2 boost. In addition, there's Volc's SR weakness, meaning it won't want to be switching in unless absolutely necessary and it definitely won't if it can't take Sketchy's hit at 50%.
Well, while SR weakness is a big problem for Volcarona, this can be remedied by team support. It's important to note what KO's after SR, but when looking at checks, it's more about what tools Volcarona has that could really hinder CAP2 and seeing if any disadvantages that CAP2 presents can hinder Volcarona from being a check.

With that out of the way, let's look at some calcs. I've done a few different calcs to see what this actually does. I'm going to do two sets, one for Bulky (the most popular set) and one for Offensive. This is assuming that CAP2 gets a physical Ghost move in its movepool and has the ability to Sketch anything (to prevent polljumping).

A few notes: +2 Atk calculations on CAP2 are irrelevant, since SD CAP2 is still slower than Volcarona, meaning that it cannot hit on the next turn after the switch. Also, it's obvious that Volcarona OHKO's CAP2 with the Offensive set, so it's mainly just defensive calcs for that one.

Bulky (240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spe):
Offensive
+0 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 86.7% - 101.8%
+0 Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 107.1% - 125.7%
+0 Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 57.8% - 68.7%
+0 Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 71.4% - 84.8%
+1 Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 128.9% - 152.4%
+1 Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 159.1% - 188.1%
+1 Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 86.7% - 101.8%
+1 Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 107.1% - 125.7%
Defensive (assume 252 Atk EV's for CAP2)
+0 Shadow Claw: 28.6% - 34%
+1 Shadow Claw: 42.9% - 50.4% (slim chance of a 2HKO without hazards)
+0 Sacred Fire/EQ: 27% - 31.8%
+1 Sacred Fire/EQ: 40.4% - 48%

Offensive (252 SpA / 252 Spe)
Offensive
+0 Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 69.3% - 81.9%
+0 Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP2: 85.5% - 101.1%
Defensive
+0 Shadow Claw: 49.5% - 58.8%
+1 Shadow Claw: 73.6% - 87.1%
+0 Sacred Fire/EQ: 46.9% - 55.3%
+1 Sacred Fire/EQ: 70.7% - 83%

As you can see, Bulky variants of Volcarona actually do quite well against CAP2, shrugging of most neutral hits and at the very least force a switch. That looks like a really good check to me. Again, CAP2 can carry Rock Slide to deal with Volcarona, but it's possible that other (more important) coverage moves might be chosen. Just pointing out a Pokemon that not a lot of people are paying attention to!

EDIT: Oh, also, don't underestimate a few perks that Volcarona has, like Flame Body! Switching in on a Physical (especially Grass) move and having a 30% chance to Burn is quite nice.
 

LouisCyphre

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A few notes: +2 Atk calculations on CAP2 are irrelevant, since SD CAP2 is still slower than Volcarona
Shell Smash.

Also, Volcarona can fairly comfortably switch into known special variants, I imagine.

Also, it's spelled "Fiery Dance."
 
Obviously, things like Heatran, Skarmory, and Jirachi are going to be counters, but just looking at typign and stats, I would imagine that Staraptor could switch in to Sketchy on either of its STABs (made easier with Intimidate), outspeed, and threaten it with Brave Bird.

Also, pokes like Registeel could probably tank a boosting set (i.e. one that lacks coverage outside of STAB) and cripple it with status.

I know that the aforementioned steel-types are better counters to Sketchy, but there are plenty of other pokemon that could threaten or check many sets, if not all, and counter at least a few of them.
 

verbatim

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Staraptor actually looked like an interesting. The problem is that its competitively useful set (Reckless Band/Scarf) takes 112.9% - 133.1% from a +2 Atk (Shell Smash) Life Orb Adamant Sketchy Power Whip/Wood Hammer (I'm assuming the strongest Grass move, for comparison, Seed Bomb deals 75.2% - 88.7%). You could use Intimidate to make Power Whip/Wood Hammer not kill in one hit, but then you have to sacrifice Reckless.

The only way Staraptor can take Sketchy out is if it runs Intimidate and switches in while CAP 2 Shell Smashes, takes a hit, and Brave Birds it (Choice Scarf/Adamant deals 269.8% - 317.6%. Choice Band/Adamant deals 404.7% - 476.4%). This may be an interesting technique if you run Choice Band, as even if Sketchy switches out, the switch in will not enjoy taking a Banded Brave Bird. Alternatively, U-Turn might be worth looking into, assuming Banded Adamant, if Sketchy stays in U-Turn deals 79.1% - 93% (unfortunately, it does not kill, but if Sketchy hits you with a Life Orb attack before or after your strike, he'll be dead or nearly so).

I'm not 100% convinced of Staraptor's utility in this situation. If anyone has experience with Staraptor and can vouch for its effectiveness without Reckless, I'd be glad to hear it.
 
Okay, well, I think that this is kind of grasping at straws now. I think we've been really good with our CAP so far, and that we're dead on with the checks we need. We really can't have any hard counters given our setup, but that's really not too terrible. I recognize a lot of very specific limitations will have to come out in the movepool stages in order to keep things in line with what we want our CAP to be beaten by, but I don't think that's a particular problem.

We'll talk more of that when it comes. As it stands, I'm closing this so all of CAP can focus on the wonder that is art polls! That will be up within an hour or so. Cheers all.
 
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