I already stated why CAP 22 needs to threaten Skarmory (common phazer) and Scizor (STAB Technician Bullet Punch), but I also find beating Cawmodore important because even if Cawmodore is hit with Parting Shot after it uses Belly Drum, it will still be at +5, which is enough to wreak havoc. Beating Jirachi is not mandatory, even with Scarf Iron Head, because Choice Scarf is going to outspeed us anyways, and other sets are vulnerable to Parting Shot, except possibly Specially Defensive sets. Beating Mega Gross is probably a good idea as well with Tough Claws Bullet Punch, though it is weaker in base power than Technician Bullet Punch and is not as threatening as Mega Scizor to our CAP.
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CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion
- Thread starter HeaLnDeaL
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Belly Drum raises the user's attack by 12 stages so Cawmodore will still be at +6
I was referring to Parting Shot after Cawmodore Belly Drummed, not before.
Oh my bad ngl I just saw the +5 and assumed you meant before since it's a common mistake. sorry.
It barely matters because unless CAP 22 has both Prankster and a higher speed than Cawmodore, the +6 Bullet Punch will hit and K.O. it before it can use Parting Shot.
I believe he was referring to using Parting Shot on the turn that Cawm BD's
While they do threaten CAP22, if we close off this set of checks and counters, what's left to check CAP22? Poison- and Fire-types and walls. I feel like CAP22 would be better off having counterplay against walls rather than Cawmodore, Jirachi, Metagross, and Scizor. It's not as if CAP22 is helpless against them on the switch in: it can hit them with a neutral STAB Fighting-type move. Basically, I agree with Skarmory, but these offensive Steel-type Pokemon need to be checks, otherwise CAP22 won't have enough to threaten it imo.
If we have no counterplay against Cawmodore, it can essentially use our CAP to set up, which is not something we should be encouraging at all. I mentioned Jirachi because, aside from Choice Scarf sets, it will likely be outsped by a FPS CAP 22 to begin with. Most of the counterplay that we can give our CAP against the mentioned Pokemon already provides counterplay to specific walls (I will leave this ambiguous to avoid poll jumping), so I fail to see how "having counterplay against walls" is more important.
Why is this important? It has zero impact on the concept. Not to mention we only need 102 sp attack and aura sphere to do more than 75% to Cawmodore, or 111 attack and close combat (both assuming a life orb, however, which definitely isn't a given either). I'm not saying either of these will happen, but if we want CAP22 to stop Cawmodore from setting up, it will be somewhat easy for us to do so. But Cawmodore in general is a non factor for the concept, and I have no idea why it's being brought up so much. Caw comes in on CAP22 and we don't have enough offenses to KO it? Guess what, switch out to a Caw counter like what's been done since the start of XY. Parting shot is even *slightly* better for us to do so, not because the -1 matters at all but because it lets us make sure the opp doesn't switch their Caw out, and if they do it lets us go to the right mon afterwards.
Cawmodore doesn't just come onto the field automatically with +6, and CAP will have every opportunity to switch out while it sets up. Murdering Cawmodore isn't needed for the concept, but it wouldn't be that hard anyway. Requiring a single mon to have counterplay against Cawmodore is a complete non-issue when we're fully capable of switching out to a check/counter as it sets up, just like how it's done in the metagame today.
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Having counterplay to walls is definitely important. If they get a safe switch in and can't be KOed by CAP22 the next turn, we risk CAP22 if it stays in or its teammate if it uses Parting Shot to be hit with a status move. I'm not saying that we need to beat every wall in the game, but we should be able to pressure some (like Skarmory).
ive been talking with some guys on PS and came up with a little bit of an opinion: we really dont need to handle stuff like rachi/megagross/sciz/caw/etc. Just going off of typing, neither of us should be able to really switch into eachother if predicted well- we'll hit them hard with fighting attacks although they can handle fairy, which is good, not bad- if they get in we should lose and giving them reasons to get in is good for the mon having checks. We shouldnt be able to switch in on them and we shouldn't beat them 1v1, and when played smart our counterplay to them should be clicking PS on the switchin- getting a switch into a caw check which is a practical necessity in the meta anyway, sciz and meta hate -1 (sciz less so but it only sd's up to +1), and getting a switch on rachi (be it scarf which can hurt from -1 or defensive which minds a lot less) again helps give us a reason to click PS.
I'm much more worried about cap22 handling passive mons then bulky/offensive steels, since they really dont care about PS and without a way to deal with them it's gonna be hard to utilize this cap well against stuff like stall, and being not great against bulkier stuff makes this hard to do its job well at all.
I'm much more worried about cap22 handling passive mons then bulky/offensive steels, since they really dont care about PS and without a way to deal with them it's gonna be hard to utilize this cap well against stuff like stall, and being not great against bulkier stuff makes this hard to do its job well at all.
I think we need to have some way to reduce harm caused by the fully passive stallmons, mainly Skarmory, but possibly also Chansey. This, however, doesn't mean we have to threaten them offensively, there are other means of reducing their impact on our PS pivoting, and picking and showing them would be poll-jumping, but I think everyone sees at least the several obvious ones.
I think it would be bending-over-backwards to try to win against the likes of Megagross and its powerful Bullet Punch. That thing just looks as too perfect counter to try to turn it over.
I also have no problem with losing to physical Jirachi, Naviathan, Magnezone and other bulky steels that fight "fair" or "somewhat fair". We can pivot out with a harm to their, often not stellar anyway, offences.
Losing the manfight against Cawmodore is a non-issue either. If CAP22 gets to manfighting Cawm, the battle is lost anyway. And, as was multiply stated, we can pivot out from him, where Parting Shot covers some double-switch tricks and any sane CAP team needs to stop Cawm in its tracks anyway. At least once (because if Cawm gets to setup twice, something's not right either).
The problem is slower bulky steels with pivoting moves, that force a guessing game with us on the shorter end - Magnezone and Jirachi can do so, but don't do that as often as others. Besides, Magnezone's Volt Switch can be quite easily (Colossoil likes this) blocked in an advantageous position (trapper, free hazards, whatever) by a Parting Shot and Jirachi runs U-Turn less commonly, because it needs those moveslots. (Mega) Scizor, however, is a completely different story. This thing is there often, runs U-Turn regularly, as well as strong Bullet Punch. That said, we probably don't need to beat him in a manfight. Again, that seems like going directly against the nature of Fairy/Fighting Parting Shooter. I'm, however, of a belief that we want to be threatening to him - one way or another - enough to discourage the switchin. Or at least, discourage the switchin enough that CAP22 isn't "Scizor coming in freely, forcing CAP22 out normally" all the time.
So, summary: I have no problem with losing to multiple of the threats, but we need to threaten the passive stallmons enough to reduce harm coming from them and we want a way to threaten Scizor on predicted switchin.
I think it would be bending-over-backwards to try to win against the likes of Megagross and its powerful Bullet Punch. That thing just looks as too perfect counter to try to turn it over.
I also have no problem with losing to physical Jirachi, Naviathan, Magnezone and other bulky steels that fight "fair" or "somewhat fair". We can pivot out with a harm to their, often not stellar anyway, offences.
Losing the manfight against Cawmodore is a non-issue either. If CAP22 gets to manfighting Cawm, the battle is lost anyway. And, as was multiply stated, we can pivot out from him, where Parting Shot covers some double-switch tricks and any sane CAP team needs to stop Cawm in its tracks anyway. At least once (because if Cawm gets to setup twice, something's not right either).
The problem is slower bulky steels with pivoting moves, that force a guessing game with us on the shorter end - Magnezone and Jirachi can do so, but don't do that as often as others. Besides, Magnezone's Volt Switch can be quite easily (Colossoil likes this) blocked in an advantageous position (trapper, free hazards, whatever) by a Parting Shot and Jirachi runs U-Turn less commonly, because it needs those moveslots. (Mega) Scizor, however, is a completely different story. This thing is there often, runs U-Turn regularly, as well as strong Bullet Punch. That said, we probably don't need to beat him in a manfight. Again, that seems like going directly against the nature of Fairy/Fighting Parting Shooter. I'm, however, of a belief that we want to be threatening to him - one way or another - enough to discourage the switchin. Or at least, discourage the switchin enough that CAP22 isn't "Scizor coming in freely, forcing CAP22 out normally" all the time.
So, summary: I have no problem with losing to multiple of the threats, but we need to threaten the passive stallmons enough to reduce harm coming from them and we want a way to threaten Scizor on predicted switchin.
Actually, Naviathan and Magnezone are likely to lose to CAP, given that they are both weak to Fighting-type attacks, which CAP 22 gets a STAB bonus on.
Our CAP should mainly avoid losing to phazers; however, according to the CAP role compendium, we already have super effective coverage on most phazers except for Fidgit (who we WANT to lose to), Skarmory (who we cannot afford to lose to), Suicune, Hippowdon (who tends to want Stone Edge over Whirlwind most of the time), and Pyroak. Scratch Fidgit and Hippowdon from the list. and our CAP wants to avoid losing to Skarmory, Suicune, and Pyroak, all of which are relatively bulky Pokemon that are neutral to at least one of CAP 22's STABs. I would like to avoid poll jumping if possible, but we will need to consider our CAP's offenses when trying to figure out how to deal with these mons and how well our CAP can synergize with teammates that can provide the support necessary to give our CAP stronger matchups against these threats, for these three Pokemon are relatively bulky and are not going to be easy to break through just by relying on Stealth Rock and STAB attacks alone. Pyroak, Skarmory, and Suicune can all manage with a Parting Shot drop, as they have a number of tools at their disposal that they can use that will not be affected by Parting Shot that much, including phazing moves, as mentioned before.
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Alfalfa mentioning Suicune also brought something to my head- how much can we afford to be set up on? Just going by typing, cune and clef both take neutral attacks (clef scaring us with fairy attacks) and clicking CM, and this applies to more niche mons like mega slowbro and reuniclus as well. It's mainly multi-stat boosts that scare me, like the before mentioned calm mind and stuff like quiver dance and dragon dance. We should be able to deal with moves like SD or nasty plot easier due to dropping it to only a +1 boost in one stat, but still should be a consideration.
Out of everything that could reduce/negate the momentum gained from using Parting Shot to switch out, Belly Drum, Multi-stat boosts, and Bulky Regenerators stand out: Belly Drum can negate a Parting Shot if it goes second while two of the more common users can scare PS'Mon out. Multi-stat boosts are still retaining a boost despite getting stats lowered, and Bulky Regenerators can switch out to regain a good portion of their health.
And I think we can find a way to deal with those while keeping PS a viable move option since they do share common weaknesses we can exploit between some sharing attack weaknesses or needing to use non-attacking moves to get ready.
And I think we can find a way to deal with those while keeping PS a viable move option since they do share common weaknesses we can exploit between some sharing attack weaknesses or needing to use non-attacking moves to get ready.
I'm not sure why we're scared so much of bulky phazing mons. The nature of phazing is random so aside from the fact they scramble the switchin, they don't stop Parting Shot, and there's absolutely nothing they can do to a hard switch from the Pokemon they phazed in to your original intended counter.
Set-up Sweepers is a different matter entirely, and the fact is those actually do counteract Parting Shot because PS is never faster than the setup move because you generally can't switch to another mon with it unless you run Necturna, Smeargle, or Pangoro.
Threats Discussion usually functions best with lists, so here's a few:
Pokemon CAP should Threaten:
General:
Dark / Dragon / Fighting / Rock Types - CAP resists their STAB and is SE against them. Exceptions apply when they have a sub-typing that threatens CAP.
Fighting-Weak Steel Types.
Fairy-Weak Flying Types.
Entirely passive Stallmons:
Chansey
Hippowdon
Skarmory
Mega Sableye
Pokemon that should check CAP (unless otherwise listed):
Poison Types
Fighting-Neutral (or better) Steel types without priority:
Scarf Jirachi
Scarf Kitsunoh
Bulky or Fighting-Resistant Fire types:
Mollux
Talonflame
Victini
Volcanion
Volkraken
Pokemon that should not threaten CAP without risk:
Fighting-Neutral Steel types with priority:
Cawmodore
Mega Metagross
(Mega) Scizor
Bulky Multi-Set-Up Sweepers (Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, Calm Mind):
Mega Altaria
Aurumoth
Mega Charizard X
Clefable
(Mega) Gyarados
Naviathan
(Mega) Slowbro
Suicune
Volcarona
Set-up Sweepers is a different matter entirely, and the fact is those actually do counteract Parting Shot because PS is never faster than the setup move because you generally can't switch to another mon with it unless you run Necturna, Smeargle, or Pangoro.
Threats Discussion usually functions best with lists, so here's a few:
Pokemon CAP should Threaten:
General:
Dark / Dragon / Fighting / Rock Types - CAP resists their STAB and is SE against them. Exceptions apply when they have a sub-typing that threatens CAP.
Fighting-Weak Steel Types.
Fairy-Weak Flying Types.
Entirely passive Stallmons:
Chansey
Hippowdon
Skarmory
Mega Sableye
Pokemon that should check CAP (unless otherwise listed):
Poison Types
Fighting-Neutral (or better) Steel types without priority:
Scarf Jirachi
Scarf Kitsunoh
Bulky or Fighting-Resistant Fire types:
Mollux
Talonflame
Victini
Volcanion
Volkraken
Pokemon that should not threaten CAP without risk:
Fighting-Neutral Steel types with priority:
Cawmodore
Mega Metagross
(Mega) Scizor
Bulky Multi-Set-Up Sweepers (Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, Calm Mind):
Mega Altaria
Aurumoth
Mega Charizard X
Clefable
(Mega) Gyarados
Naviathan
(Mega) Slowbro
Suicune
Volcarona
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I think the free boost would be more of an annoyance than anything. If you switch in Serperior as CAP22 uses Parting Shot, you're sitting at +1, yes, but then your opponent has the switch advantage. Serperior's damage output is still a little underwhelming at +1 anyways.
Does a Pokemon come in from Parting Shot after the move is used, or after all Pokemon on the field have made their move? Whether or not which either of them happens would either affirm or contradict what you have just said.
it's just like U-Turn and Volt Switch, so you have a chance to go to a Serp Check/Counter if it switches in on a PS.
So if you Parting Shot before Serperior makes his move, the Pokemon will be brought in before Serperior takes an action?
Way to confuse me even more. Let me simplify my questions into a statement: CAP 22 and Serperior are opponents to each other, and CAP 22 uses Parting Shot. If Serperior can attack after a teammate of CAP 22 is brought in through Parting Shot, then it is necessary that CAP 22 has an advantageous match-up against Serperior, for the above scenario would mean Serperior can attack a Pokemon at +3 the same turn it is hit with Parting Shot. To simplify this even more, our CAP should be able to keep Serperior from switching in, or even from abusing this situation if such is possible.
In that sense Serperior should not want to switch into our CAP in the first place. If we are faster and hit Serperior then it will be undeniably Leaf Storm whatever is coming in and be at +3. If we are slower it's just the reverse. Either way the CAP puts whatever pivots in to facing down a +3 Serperior. Of course certain Mons like Talonflame etc. would be fine but you get my point. As such the CAP should be threatening enough with its coverage or such that Serperior doesn't just come in and get a free setup.
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