CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[david0895]

1. What abilities complement CAP22's ability to use Parting Shot and pivot well?
The best abilities for this work, are Regenerator and Natural Cure. But in the specific case of the single move Parting Shot, I think that Limber is the most useful, becuase avoiding the paralysis spam from Prankster pokèmon (like Thundurus) will guarantee the use of this move (except against faster pokèmon). Also Mold Breaker and Infiltrator could be good, because they can bypass magic Bounce user and substitutes, but they are too specifices.

2. What abilities will allow us to reduce harm caused by walls for both CAP22 and its teammates?
Talking about CAP22 itself, it needs to be protected from paralysis and sleep (and burn if physical attacker), in order to perform all its roles so Limber, Vital Spirit (and Guts) are the best choices. But adding its teammates change the discussion in favor of Natutal Cure thanks to the possibility of absorbing all the status problem.

3. Should CAP22's ability have a focus on its offenses or on its utility?
Obviously its utility. CAP22 is born mainly for using Parting Shot, not for create an offensive pokèmon.


Also I want to consider some ability written from some previous people:

-Rattled: This could be a great ability thanks it's 4x resistance, if CAP22 can catch this oppurtunity, it will gain a helpful speed boost.

-Regenerator: As a fast pokèmon, it will be frail, so the single motivation to give this ability is to use it with life orb.

-Intimidate: It simply redound with Parting Shot.

-Unaware: Why give it to a frail pokèmon that cannot survive to pokèmon like Charizard X or Landorus-T?

-Frisk: I cannot see this further than a Kitsunoh 2.0... -.-

-Levitate: Not so useful as the others abilities. In one word: outclassed

-Serene Grace: I don't see a utility in this ability since it will most apply to the STAB fairy moves (Play Rough and/or Moonblast)

-Prankster: This is excessive, since CAP22 MUST BE THREATENED from priority moves.

-Contrary: HELL NO! This will turn CAP22 into a dangerous sweeper thanks to Close Combat or Superpower. Also even enemy CAP22 and Magic Bounce user, can boost our pokèmon.

 

[Exclaimer]

I feel like a lot of you guys are assuming a lot about this Pokemon. Especially related to later stages. How do you know we're going to get Contrary Superpower/Close Combat, when there are plenty of examples of Fighting types that lack them? We could easily avoid this issue by not getting those moves. Please avoid talking about later stages unless we're absolutely certain of them, such as "This cap will probably get a STAB move". I'd also like to point out that Regenerator is only broken if the later stages don't take it into account. We don't know if it'll be broken. There's no way any of us COULD know. It very well COULD be broken if our Pokemon is good enough, but so could any other ability. The combination makes it broken, not anything specific.

And another thing: Where are you getting that this pokemon is frail? You've no idea whether or not this Pokemon is frail, it's not even got stats yet. Or any ability. Or moves.

More thoughts on abilities:

I like Intimidate because it compounds with Parting Shot and allows teammates a lot of setup opportunities. It could act like Memento, but without sacrificing anything. This would definitely see use simply because intimidate is a great standalone ability, but it also has the chance to deter usage of Parting Shot which would be slightly less effective against physical attackers.

Mold Breaker is neat so that Mega Diancie cannot switch in effectively, but other than that I see it as too niche to be worth considering over other, widely-purposed abilities.

I heavily dislike Rattled since we are defined by our use of a move that switches us out. The speed would simply go away once we're out, so I don't see much of a point. Justified falls under the same boat, though I like it more because it gives us more power, which makes Knock Off less appealing to use and supporting the rest of the team.

 

[jas61292]

I'd like to second what reachzero said about Regenerator. Regenrator is a super powerful ability, and has taken Pokemon like Slowbro and Tornadus-T who otherwise would be flawed and made them competitive mainstays. Our typing is absolutely fantastic, we resist stealth rock, and, lets be honest here, this is CAP, so we are not going to have anything but good stats, regardless of the specifics. We want to be a pivot, sure, but we don't need one of the games strongest abilities to help us do that. It would be overkill, and especially with a pivoting move and Pursuit resistance, could make us stupidly hard to kill. We don't need that or want that.

On the other hand, I love Natural Cure. We chose in concept assessment to be a fast parting shot user, and nothing would hamper that like paralysis. While we are yet to determine stats, we are sure to create them (and our movepool) with the idea that we will usually be going first. If that is not the case, it will be very problematic. Sure, once paralyzed, we would likely have to hard switch, not parting shot, but a single hard switch is a small price to pay for making sure we are not crippled for the rest of the battle. The fact that it helps with other conditions is just a bonus. That said, I prefer it greatly over something like Limber, as it encourages the playstyle we are already going for.

I also am a big fan of Serene Grace. Moonblast and Play Rough are the big targets for this, potentially allowing us to more easily land a -2 in conjunction with parting shot, and as the two main competitive fairy moves, we are almost guaranteed to have at least one of the two. That said, if we go with this, there are plenty of other options to go with this, with all sorts of effects, so we can tailor its use as we like. And as has been mentioned, no Serene Grace does not have to mean flinch hax.

 

[Bughouse]

I like abilities that help make CAP 22 more threatening. This really should have imo some of the best unboosted offensive strength in OU in order to force switches and get free Parting Shots. It's obvious Natural Cure could be good, but it could be good on pretty much any Pokemon. I don't like it when CAP falls back on generically good abilities when it's unnecessary.

So back to boosting offenses... Fairy/Fighting has the unfortunate problem where Fairy doesn't have an attack nearly as strong as Close Combat/Superpower or Focus Blast (assuming we helped fix accuracy) on either side of the spectrum. So to me what seems most natural is to assist the power of the Fairy STAB to be equivalent (or even stronger) to what the Fighting STAB can do. This will give the CAP much more general offensive prowess since Fairy is a more spammable STAB than Fighting. That leads me to Pixilate.

Hypothetical example of how much more threatening CAP would become and force switches. This is an example CAP with 110 Atk like Mega Altaria has. I've given a hypothetical LO, since this is not a Mega CAP. Compare the power to Pixilate Return to Play Rough. It's basically an increase of 1.5x due to higher base power and the 1.3x boost.

252+ Atk Life Orb Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 227-269 (56.1 - 66.5%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Mega Altaria Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 153-183 (37.8 - 45.2%)

 

[Alfalfa]

Bughouse Fairy-type attacks already get super effective hits on a decent fraction of the metagame... plus, 90 base power, while not high like 120, is still relatively respectable in terms of damage output. I doubt CAP 22 is going to lack enough power to threaten most Pokemon with a STAB Play Rough or Moonblast, for we already have made it clear that we want our CAP to be offensively threatening. People have already brought up concerns about Regenerator, and while Pixilate likely lacks the gravity of those concerns, I doubt anybody is going to be one board with Pixilate because they are going to be too afraid that it will be too large of a buff to our CAP.

 

[snake]

Hi guys! I just wanted to say that I'm really loving the discussion so far. I just wanted to comment on some of the abilities proposed so far. I will be listing them in the order that they appear in the thread. Note that these are just my personal opinions and observations. I'm not trying to make any decisions at this moment, but there are some abilities that I just do not care for personally, which I will be getting to.

Natural Cure: This seems like the most popular ability so far. As a) a pivot that b) doesn't appreciate status conditions, Natural Cure seems like a great direction to go with. Since it's getting so much support, I'd like more supporting evidence than just the aforementioned two facts (a and b).

Serene Grace: I'm in the middle on this one. On one hand, stacking stat drops with Moonblast or Play Rough is really nice. On the other hand, we have to restrict ourselves in Movepool stage (not that it's impossible to get through though), and it kinda distracts CAP22 from using Parting Shot to gain stat drops. I'm not thinking of flinch hax when I make this judgement, and I'm still open to this ability, but I feel a little concern for it.

Unaware: I struggle to see the main idea behind this ability. Most people have stated that it can help check BD Cawmodore and BD Azumarill; however, by typing, they will still beat us with their STAB moves anyways, even while ignoring their boosts. If we Parting Shot against them, they're still at +5, which is still a lot.

Prankster: This ability seems to go against our threat list, particularly the point of priority and Choice Scarf users, so I'm not liking this ability.

Regenerator: Having this ability will really strain our Stats stage trying to keep CAP22 in check with the rest of the metagame. That said, I'm not completely opposed to it, but CAP22 can (and imo should) get some form of recovery elsewhere.

Poison Heal: This isn't our solution to Natural Cure. Not only does it give a status immunity and very great recovery, it encourages CAP22 to stay in for long periods of time, which is NOT what an offensive pivot is supposed to do. Personally, I find it very anti-concept.

Limber/Electric-type Immunity: As of now, we basically lose to most paralysis inducers. boxofkangaroos summed it up well in one of his posts. I'm not really in favor of abilities that give a paralysis immunity.

Levitate: An interesting option: it lets us hard counter Colossoil and Garchomp and avoid all hazards bar Stealth Rock, which we resist. I'm not opposed to it.

Contrary: From what I can tell, people have proposed it for Rebound Colossoil and Magic Bouncers, yet, by typing, we beat these bouncers with our STAB moves for the most part. In return, we have to limit ourselves on physical Fighting-type STAB moves and we risk powering up CAP22 with an opposing CAP22's Parting Shot. The negatives really outweigh the positives for this ability imo.

Rattled: This feels like Prankster, as if we switch into Colossoil's Knock Off and get the speed boost, we could potentially outspeed a Choice Scarf Pokemon, which goes against our threatlist. Obviously it's a lot more situational than Prankster, but it still doesn't mesh with our threat list.

Defiant/Competitve: This is like Contrary but even more potent. I don't think this ability is necessary, personally.

Unburden: Because CAP22 is a pivot, it gets to enjoy this boost once, so it actually discourages CAP22 to run Parting Shot.

Scrappy/Reckless: These abilities buff our Fighting-type STAB moves, but I'm not really sure what for.

Intimidate: Right now, I feel like this is anti-concept. It accomplishes half of what Parting Shot would do anyways, which discourages Parting Shot. Yes, stacking boosts would be nice, but personally I believe it discourages Parting Shot.

Pixilate: I fail to see how this helps our concept in any way asides from making our Fairy-type STAB already hit harder than it already will. Pixilate makes CAP22 an offensive juggernaut, so I really don't like this ability.

Feel free to propose more abilities! Again these are just my personal opinions, so if you disagree with me, feel free to post and tell me why I'm wrong!

 

[Tmi489]

1. What abilities complement CAP22's ability to use Parting Shot and pivot well?
Not only can Natural Cure/Regenerator help with the cap, but there's one more ability that could be useful. Well, Aroma Veil or Trace can work well. As a scout, it would prevent easy taunts (AR) and see the abilities of others. However, there's normally not many viable abilities for each 'mon, so yeah. Another possiblity is any form of weather inducing ability, but STAB doesn't complement any of them. Magic Guard can also work well, however Cruci-M already has that. And Arena Trap could work, but seeing as how Shadow Tag is banned, nah.
2. What abilities will allow us to reduce harm caused by walls for both CAP22 and its teammates?
As others said, abilities that can stop status effects aregreat for this role. However I can't see Synchronize being very good for some walls, mainly since some walls are immune. M. Bounce could be a neat idea if timed correctly, as it stops entry hazards and status. Not sure if that's balanced though.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

My opinions on the abilities proposed thus far:

Natural Cure: This seems like an excellent fit for CAP 22, since a fast pivot would definitely not like status. It's also useful without being too powerful.

Serene Grace: This ability is interesting. For one thing, it has potential outside of the infamous Jirachi/Togekiss flinch spam strategy. On the other hand, we'd have to be very careful in the movepool stage, as certain moves that would otherwise be fine might become overwhelming. I'm not against it, but we would have to be mindful of its potential power moving forward.

Unaware: We lose to the two major Belly Drummers in CAP (Azumarill and Cawmodore) based on typing alone, and 3.5x Attack still hits very hard. There's little point in picking this ability if Clefable and Quagsire can better utilize it anyway.

Prankster: This ability has too much potential to muck up the threat list for CAP 22. We don't want to be complete fodder for Choice Scarf and priority users, but we also don't want to be at an advantage against them.

Regenerator: I was initially in favor of this ability, but the arguments against it by reachzero and others have persuaded me otherwise. As previously stated, Fairy/Fighting is a very good typing both offensively and defensively, so Regenerator would place heavy constraints on the later stages of the project.

Poison Heal: No way. The only reason that Breloom doesn't commonly run this ability is because Technician better complements its movepool and stats, while Gliscor is a matchup nightmare for some teams just because of this ability. I'll even say that there's no other ability that would more actively go against the concept than this one.

Limber/Electric-type immunity: The former is in almost all respects an inferior version of Natural Cure. The latter doesn't do much for CAP 22 when, as previously discussed, most paralysis users beat CAP 22 anyway. There are better options than any of these abilities.

Levitate: I can see the use of this ability. Having this would make Colossoil dead weight against CAP 22, while reducing the effectiveness of bulky Ground types like Landorus-T, defensive Garchomp, and Gliscor. An immunity to all hazards bar Stealth Rock is also nice.

Frisk: This ability is all right in my book. Being able to scout opposing items and thus deduce possible movesets is a nice perk for a pivot to have.

Contrary: As I mentioned back during the concept assessment, a reflected Parting Shot already forces the opponent to switch. Furthermore, Colossoil and Mega Diancie don't particularly want to switch into Fairy/Fighting STAB, so this ability seems rather pointless.

Rattled: The Speed boost can mess with our threat list in certain situations, and CAP 22 doesn't particularly mind being hit by any of the three types this ability covers. I don't think this really helps CAP 22 in being an effective pivot.

Defiant/Competitive: I'm really not seeing the point of having these abilities. If Parting Shot were a damaging move, maybe I could see the appeal, but as it stands, these abilities don't exactly encourage pivoting.

Unburden: This is only a one-time boost, which encourages staying in for prolonged periods of time. Again, this runs against what a pivot is supposed to be. Furthermore, there are better ways to discourage Knock Off spam that don't reduce the incentive to have Parting Shot available.

Intimidate: Like snake_rattler, I believe this ability is just generically good and would run the risk of being used as a substitute for Parting Shot instead of a complement. As such, Intimidate would be a distraction from the concept.

Pixilate: Like several other proposed abilities, I feel this ability is a distraction from CAP 22's role as a fast pivot. I don't see any particular reason why CAP 22 needs its Fairy STAB to be even stronger.

Aroma Veil: Taunt immunity is nice to have, as Parting Shot is a status move. I'm not opposed to this ability.

Trace: I have reservations about this ability because it can potentially clash with the threat list. For example, if CAP switches in on Volcanion and copies Water Absorb, Steam Eruption becomes useless against us. Copying Azumarill's Huge Power or Mega Metagross' Tough Claws could also be problems, as they could potentially encourage the CAP to stay in for an attempted sweep instead of pivoting.

With that out of the way, one other ability that could work is Forewarn. It serves a similar purpose to Frisk as a scouting ability. While it could be useless against certain Pokémon, it could also be helpful in discerning what set an opponent is running.

 

[Bughouse]

Lol @ everyone saying Fairy STAB moves are strong enough already. No. It needs Fairy STAB to be strong because Play Rough and Moonblast really are quite weak moves for something that we want to be a major offensive threat. Fast Parting Shot (which, yes, we did decide on in CA) only works properly if the opponent is induced to switch.

So what offensive OU mons use Fairy STAB attacks?
Mega Diancie with its 160 SpA
Azumarill with Huge Power
Mega Gardevoir with Pixilate
Mega Altaria with Pixilate

The next closest thing to being used in OU as an offensive threat with Fairy STAB? Sylveon... also with Pixilate
Banned from OU? Mega Mawile with Huge Power. Heck, even Xerneas's ability powers up its own Moonblast.

There's a reason these all have had huge buffs to what they can do with their Fairy STAB. It's not strong enough on its own. Granbull has 120 Atk. Let's give it a CB or a LO.
252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 160-189 (38 - 45%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Granbull Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 140-165 (33.3 - 39.2%)

Mega Altaria has 110 Attack and no special item.
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 148-175 (35.2 - 41.6%)

Pixilate's boost and the ability to use stronger Normal type moves is not just a quirk of trying to abuse power. It's literally the only way offensive Fairy types can exist in OU, except for a 160/160/110 juggernaut with Magic Bounce.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Moderator Announcement:

Hey kids, this was announced before this CAP even started, but we're building for the CAP metagame, not the OU metagame. As such, your arguments involving threatlists / hit lists /etc should be directed towards the CAP metagame. Talking about OU / other mons is perfectly fine to make a point, just remember CAP22 will be designed to hit things in the CAP metagame, and not things in OU.

 

[calvinball]

3. Should CAP22's ability have a focus on its offenses or on its utility?

I think that focusing on Parting Shot as our concept means we should try to emphasize CAP 22's role as a fast pivot. Based on that, I think we should lean towards focusing on utility as we think about CAP 22's ability. If we focus too much or solely on offenses, we may unintentionally discourage the use of CAP 22 as a pivot with Parting Shot rather than just a straight-up sweeper or wall breaker.

The discussion's already progress quite a bit so far, so I'll focus on talking about what other posters have brought up rather than answer the fist two questions directly, as all of my answers have already been covered by others. I'll run through some of the suggested abilities and provide my two cents if I think it'll contribute to the discussion.

Rattled, Defiant, Unburden, Trace, Contrary - As others have said, these abilities are wholly focused on boosts of some kind, which discourages pivoting. A CAP 22 who Traces a valuable move or gets a one-off Unburden boost or is lucky enough to be Contrary and get hit with an unfortunately timed Memento doesn't want to pivot to its teammates, even in the face of its checks and counters, since now it may have the strength to power through them. I think that if we want the concept to truly shine and for our threat list to continue to consistently apply to CAP 22, we shouldn't utilize an ability that enables strategies to circumvent that. If a set that doesn't use Parting Shot is better than a set that does, Parting Shot will be left by the wayside and we'll miss our concept.

Dry Skin - I find it interesting, as a type immunity does encourage switching in to take the hit, and if CAP 33 doesn't threaten the foe directly, Parting Shot can then be used as a means to more safely bring in a counter by lowering the opponent's offensive stats. And, if the opponent switches, you can bring in the right counter to the new Mon for free. Plus, gaining a weakness to Fire emphasizes how such Mons threaten it, keeping it in check so it's not too centralizing or overpowered.

Frisk - As a guy who used a Frisk Dusknoir in PU, I can't tell you how useful it is to know sets sometimes. While it's not my first choice for CAP 22's ability, I could support it if convinced that my other choices weren't as good as I thought.

The ability I most support for CAP 22 is Natural Cure.

Natural Cure: This seems like the most popular ability so far. As a) a pivot that b) doesn't appreciate status conditions, Natural Cure seems like a great direction to go with. Since it's getting so much support, I'd like more supporting evidence than just the aforementioned two facts (a and b).

Since I find that I support Natural Cure as CAP 22's ability, I'd like to try and propose another good reason to use it as CAP 22's primary ability.

Others have already said that Natural Cure helps CAP 22 be a better pivot, and it limits the impact walls have on CAP 22.

In addition to that, the concept of Parting Shot is all about pivoting - switching in, switching out. Having Natural Cure would make CAP 22 an effective absorber of burns, paralysis, and poison; when faced with an opposing Mon known to use status against your Mon that's currently out, prediction could enable you to switch to CAP 22 and absorb the status safely, then Parting Shot out to an appropriate counter to either the status using Mon or to whatever Mon your opponent switches to in response to CAP 22.

Talking about Natural Cure inevitably requires one to think about other abilities that provide status immunity, such as Poison Heal, Limber, Immunity, and Insomnia. I believe Natural Cure would better fit CAP 22, not because it is a "superior" ability, but because it encourages switching and pivoting more than the alternatives do. Natural Cure eliminates status on the switch, meanings that if CAP 22 wants to be rid of the status, it has to switch, encouraging use of Parting Shot.

In brief, I believe Natural Cure is the ability that will most encourage the use of CAP 22 as a pivot and help us fulfill the concept.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Lol @ everyone saying Fairy STAB moves are strong enough already. No. It needs Fairy STAB to be strong because Play Rough and Moonblast really are quite weak moves for something that we want to be a major offensive threat. Fast Parting Shot (which, yes, we did decide on in CA) only works properly if the opponent is induced to switch.

So what offensive OU mons use Fairy STAB attacks?
Mega Diancie with its 160 SpA
Azumarill with Huge Power
Mega Gardevoir with Pixilate
Mega Altaria with Pixilate

The next closest thing to being used in OU as an offensive threat with Fairy STAB? Sylveon... also with Pixilate
Banned from OU? Mega Mawile with Huge Power. Heck, even Xerneas's ability powers up its own Moonblast.

There's a reason these all have had huge buffs to what they can do with their Fairy STAB. It's not strong enough on its own. Granbull has 120 Atk. Let's give it a CB or a LO.
252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 160-189 (38 - 45%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Granbull Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 140-165 (33.3 - 39.2%)

Mega Altaria has 110 Attack and no special item.
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 148-175 (35.2 - 41.6%)

Pixilate's boost and the ability to use stronger Normal type moves is not just a quirk of trying to abuse power. It's literally the only way offensive Fairy types can exist in OU, except for a 160/160/110 juggernaut with Magic Bounce.

Pixilate: I fail to see how this helps our concept in any way asides from making our Fairy-type STAB already hit harder than it already will. Pixilate makes CAP22 an offensive juggernaut, so I really don't like this ability.

I feel like Bughouse makes an excellent point. I don't mean to be particularly poll-jumping in the next bits, but most Fairy Types relevant to the tier have some massive stats or a move booster like Pixilate. This CAP wouldn't end up as an offensive juggernaut if the stats were done right. I believe one of our goals was to be able to force switches and threaten bulky Pokemon; it won't be possible to accomplish this goal without at least having some offensive power that makes the opponent think twice about staying in. For example, a Hippowdon isn't going to care at all about a weak Play Rough coming off a non-banded 110 Attack stat. Heck, even the Special side won't do much more damage. But if you add in Pixilate, but tweak things just right, we could create something that hits a little harder than if it didn't have Pixilate. here are solutions to decreasing the effectiveness of bulky Pokemon, but we will need to harm them to some extent in order to actually make them need to switch out. In conclusion, I feel that Pixilate is a justified option for CAP 22.

 

[Alfalfa]

If we have enough power to force out most bulky Pokemon, our CAP is likely going to incline more towards being a wallbreaker than a pivot. Our CAP is not supposed to have the power of an offensive juggernaut (why do you think we dismissed Ground / Fairy as a typing?), it is just supposed to have the power, dual STABs, and coverage necessary to put offensive pressure on a number of common threats, as well as a handful of Pokemon that do not care about Parting Shot as well, excluding Poison and Fire-types barring Heatran. Also, using Pixilate makes using Pokemon like Fidgit and Talonflame as checks a lot harder.

 

[Ignus]

I don't think wallbreaker and pivot are really two roles that are particularly distinct and separate - 'Wallbreaker' generally refers to one's ability to provide offensive pressure with hard hits, and 'Pivot' generally refers to a Mon's ability to properly switch in and provide defensive pressure. For example, Azumarill could be referred to as a Pivot for it's ability to switch into Dragon and Fire types, but could also be referred to as a Wallbreaker for its ability to brute force certain matchups.

Personally, I think both a utility approach and a offensive approach are perfectly reasonable - The only requirement we have to follow is make sure that the stuff we bring in are those that are hurt the most by us running away with parting shot, so I by no means am against something like pixilate because of worrying that it will make us 'too wallbreaky' when the traits of a wallbreaker and a pivot don't particularly conflict with one another. I think Genesect is a super good example of what a 'pivoty wallbreaker' looks like - and although it got banned from OU (and rightfully so), I think it shows that a u-turn style pivot who also happens to be a wallbreaker is a perfectly envisionable direction to take the concept. Genesect had it's own problems that got it banned (the word unpredictable comes to mind) that are mostly unrelated to CAP's direction, so I think as long as we're making sure our checks and counters we defined last stage aren't being eaten, we should be fine.


That said, Pixilate is still probably not my first choice - I still think Natural Cure is a better ability for the concept in general, but to dismiss Pixilate because it might conflict with the concept makes little sense to me.

 

[NumberCruncher]

1. What abilities complement CAP22's ability to use Parting Shot and pivot well?

So obviously abilities that directly involve switching like Natural Cure and Regenerator serve this well. Any ability that provides an immunity also helps it get in. Scouting abilities like Frisk also tend to work decently.

2. What abilities will allow us to reduce harm caused by walls for both CAP22 and its teammates?

Obviously resistance to status goes a long way in keeping this mon from being destroyed by defensive mons, as well as passive recovery. However, passive recovery tends to work against our concept, as it encourages us to stay in and Protect against threats instead of Parting Shot away.

3. Should CAP22's ability have a focus on its offenses or on its utility?

Probably utility in all honesty. Fighting typing is both offensively and defensively terrible support typing for Fairy, as it only adds resistances to Rock and types you already resisted, and adds 3 incredibly relevant weaknesses. In addition, Fighting works against very few Steel and Fire types in this format, and Crucibelle is the only Poison type taking normal damage from Fighting, so it doesn't really let you beat much you couldn't beat before, as well as being walled by CAPs plethora of Ghosts. Therefore, the less CAP needs to rely on pushing through with STAB, the better off it's probably going to be. In addition, Fairy is very good typing for utility.


That being said, let's look at the abilities discussed thus far:

Natural Cure: As has been said by everybody in this thread, this is an excellent ability for this mon. It keeps us from being threatened out by Chansey and Mega-Eye, and acts as a boon to not only Parting Shot, but also teams that want pivots. Simply a great ability.

Frisk: Another perfectly serviceable ability that can be helpful in scouting sets, like checking Lando for a Helment or Tomohawk for an Orb. It encourages us to go in and out, which makes Parting shot more appealing as well.

Regenerator: Regenerator is quite a bit like the abilities above, but really pretty ridiculous. Healing Regenerator on a mon that actually resist rocks is absurdly good, and on a Fairy type that's even crazier.

Levitate: Levitate is useful in the way pretty much every immunity move would be useful to a pivot, with the added bonus of being particulatly good against the Ground-type passive bulky mons in the format.

Dry Skin: In a similar vein to Levitate, Dry Skin helps us get in on mons like Naviathan. It makes it harder for us to beat Fire types, which is good. It even has inreresting interations, where Dry skin lets you beat Defensive Starmie, but not Offensive Starmie, so you use the Parting Shot to scout. There are a bunch of little interactions like that that push Parting Shot in a subtle way. My only real problem with this is that we're supposed to be weak to Aqua Jet users, but given that the best Aqua Jet abuser beats us anyway, the's probably fine.

Aroma Veil: Taunt immunity is actually pretty neat. It's a very good support ability and not only protects our Parting Shot, but whatever support moves we give it. I can get behind this.

Trace: Trace can work pretty decently on this mon. It doesn't combo insanely well with this mon, but it isn't awful either. To be honest, this seems more like a secondary or flavor ability than a primary one.

Defiant/Competitive: This seems pretty much the exact opposite of what we want in an ability. This encourages us to stay in instead of using parting Shot, it keeps our counters from switching in on us, and forces us to rely very heavily on our offense.

Rattled: On of the only abilities that makes Fighting typing on a Fairy not completely redundant, Rattled lets us sponge a Dark or Bug type move insanely well and get a boost from it. Unfortunately, it suffers from some of the problems that Defiant does, namely that it makes counters harder to come in and encourages us to stay in.

Contrary: Heck no! On of the best things going for our Fighting STAB is that Fighting type moves combo insanely well with Parting Shot. You can fire off a Close Combat or a Superpower, then Parting Shot away to stop yourself from getting trashed. Not only would Contrary mean we couldn't reasonably have those sorts of moves, but it's insanely anti-concept, turning us from a pivot to a late-game sweeper.

Pixilate: So basically Pixilate would render any Fairy move we try to give this mon a moot point, which seems like an odd direction to go given that we're actually trying to make its STAB relevant. I just can't help but feel at the point we're considering Pixilate that Sheer Force wouldn't just be a better pick, and I'm fairy certain that's not the direction this project wants to take.

Prankster: Just no. We're actually trying to get countered by priority users, and CAP need more Prankster users like Ireland needs more pubs.

 

[Alfalfa]

Levitate should be considered if we want to avoid Spikes / TSpikes without wanting to give our CAP Magic Guard. Keep in mind as well that if we do run Levitate NumberCruncher, we resist or are immune to all of Landorus-T's common attack moves (Earthquake, Stone Edge, U-turn, Knock Off, Superpower), which may have some merit, especially since Landorus-T despises Parting Shot. I am not saying I am on board with Levitate just yet, I am just pointing some things out that should be considered.

 

[Earth Traveler]

1. What abilities complement CAP22's ability to use Parting Shot and pivot well?
Natural Cure, Regenerator (apparently broken), Prankster (broken again), Contrary (apparently broken despite the fact it doesn't have any moves :/).

2. What abilities will allow us to reduce harm caused by walls for both CAP22 and its teammates?
Huge Power Natural Cure would definitely help remove status, and Regenerator would remove the passive damage. I guess Iron Bar-- *gets shot* would not be helpful at all. Magic Bounce could be funny if nothing else against a wall.

3. Should CAP22's ability have a focus on its offenses or on its utility?
Yes.

One thing nobody's suggested is the possibility of Magic Bounce. Of course, now a bunch of people will probably say that's broken, but I'm still going to suggest it on these grounds: While Natural Cure benefits our CAP by curing status, it doesn't really deter it. In fact, it could be argued it would encourage statusing CAP22 to force it to switch/use Parting Shot to cure the status. Magic Bounce straight-up punishes usage of status moves, which helps CAP22 threaten passive walls that like to use status moves and that the Threat Discussion says CAP22 is supposed to be able to counter. It would also deter entry hazards; CAP22 could come in, bounce Spikes, et al., and Parting Shot out next turn without taking a hit (theoretically). I think it could be the perfect ability for an offensive pivot.

 

[calvinball]

Contrary (apparently broken despite the fact it doesn't have any moves :/).

I wouldn't say that it's broken - I don't know if anyone has, but if someone has, that's not the reason I'd say Contrary shouldn't be CAP 22's ability. Contrary is an ability based on the idea of getting stat boosts, and having stat boosts discourages one from switching out, since then CAP 22 would lose the boosts. If we want to focus on CAP 22 using Parting Shot and being a pivot, we don't want to give it an ability that will encourage strategies based on it getting boosts and staying in.

One thing nobody's suggested is the possibility of Magic Bounce. Of course, now a bunch of people will probably say that's broken, but I'm still going to suggest it on these grounds: While Natural Cure benefits our CAP by curing status, it doesn't really deter it. In fact, it could be argued it would encourage statusing CAP22 to force it to switch/use Parting Shot to cure the status. Magic Bounce straight-up punishes usage of status moves, which helps CAP22 threaten passive walls that like to use status moves and that the Threat Discussion says CAP22 is supposed to be able to counter. It would also deter entry hazards; CAP22 could come in, bounce Spikes, et al., and Parting Shot out next turn without taking a hit (theoretically). I think it could be the perfect ability for an offensive pivot.

Hm... that's something I hadn't even considered. Although Magic Bounce is a powerful ability, its power is still dependent on what we do in later stages, and the nature of the ability doesn't naturally detract from CAP 22's potential pivoting qualities.

This combination of a pivoting move and Magic Bounce makes me think of Xatu, who has Magic Bounce and U-Turn.

CAP 22 could conceivably come in on a hazard setter or status user that doesn't threaten it or that it threatens and Bounce the status moves back. Then its use of Parting Shot allows it to get in a counter to the Pokemon in question (hopefully without said counter being hit with a status move, since now the status user probably isn't using such moves for fear of them not working on CAP 22) or to whatever the opponent switches in (perhaps a counter to CAP 22).

It's still possible that Magic Bounce could make it more difficult to keep CAP 22 balanced in later stages, though. Before throwing my weight behind Magic Bounce, I'd like to hear if anyone has thoughts on whether or not Magic Bounce could possibly imbalance CAP 22 in the current metagame.

I feel like Bughouse makes an excellent point. I don't mean to be particularly poll-jumping in the next bits, but most Fairy Types relevant to the tier have some massive stats or a move booster like Pixilate. This CAP wouldn't end up as an offensive juggernaut if the stats were done right. I believe one of our goals was to be able to force switches and threaten bulky Pokemon; it won't be possible to accomplish this goal without at least having some offensive power that makes the opponent think twice about staying in. For example, a Hippowdon isn't going to care at all about a weak Play Rough coming off a non-banded 110 Attack stat. Heck, even the Special side won't do much more damage. But if you add in Pixilate, but tweak things just right, we could create something that hits a little harder than if it didn't have Pixilate. here are solutions to decreasing the effectiveness of bulky Pokemon, but we will need to harm them to some extent in order to actually make them need to switch out. In conclusion, I feel that Pixilate is a justified option for CAP 22.

Wouldn't it be better to just give CAP 22 the offensive stats you think it needs to hit hard enough? Why use Pixilate when we can just give CAP 22 better offensive stats? Pixilate would prevent us from giving CAP 22 an ability that has some utility applications - Pixilate is pure offense.

I don't mean to poll jump, but I fear that Pixilate would kind of pigeonhole us as far as CAP 22's stats and movepool goes moving forward.

Talking about this, though, makes me think that Magic Bounce would also be effective at giving CAP 22 a tool against passive, bulky Pokemon. Bulky Mons that are more passive tend to rely on status moves, which a Magic Bounce CAP 22 would just send right back. If we want our ability to have application against passive, bulky Mons, Magic Bounce could do that in a manner that I think is less anti-concept than Pixilate.

 

[Project_Mars]

3. Should CAP22's ability have a focus on its offenses or on its utility?
Yes.

One thing nobody's suggested is the possibility of Magic Bounce. Of course, now a bunch of people will probably say that's broken, but I'm still going to suggest it on these grounds: While Natural Cure benefits our CAP by curing status, it doesn't really deter it. In fact, it could be argued it would encourage statusing CAP22 to force it to switch/use Parting Shot to cure the status. Magic Bounce straight-up punishes usage of status moves, which helps CAP22 threaten passive walls that like to use status moves and that the Threat Discussion says CAP22 is supposed to be able to counter. It would also deter entry hazards; CAP22 could come in, bounce Spikes, et al., and Parting Shot out next turn without taking a hit (theoretically). I think it could be the perfect ability for an offensive pivot.

It prevents PS'mon from staying status'd, meaning that switching in a status user to take at least two attacks to try to paralyze PS'mon only to have that paralysis get removed upon the inevitable switch results in no gain on the side of the Pokemon using the status attack. It discourages it by making it a play that would hurt more.

 

[firesthor]

i dont mean to poll-jump by any means, but i believe that our ability to threathen walls and passive pokemon is not something we must necessarily do in this stage of the concept. we could provide CAP with means to do it later, via moves or stats or whatever.

and well, here is the deal. CAP will be fast. bar prankster pokemon, almost every status user are slow. so unless we switch on a toxic or something like that we arent likely to get statused. at all. so natural cure does give us the oportunity to switch in with impunity against walls, but after that what? i dont know, is pro-concept and its good but i dont think it will solve our problems, since the concept is parting shot, no status absorver with a pivoting move.

And the more i think about levitate, the more i like it.its just great with this concept. I feel is the ability to go, not just because being able to repeadtly switch in without worring about hazzards at all is extremly good for a pivot, but the ability to get in for free in a predicted ground move, which are almost everywhere, is wonderfull. AND it gives us the ability to pressure some pokemon, like landorus and garchomp, by almost completely walling them, will help us at forcing them switch.it doesnt mess with our counters or threath list, its pro-concept, and even though it doesnt help with status or passive pokemon, as i said, i dont think we will get hit by status at all if we dont switch directly on status moves and we can deal with passive things later, so i strongly support levitate

 

[snake]

Hi guys, I'd like to chime in on some of the newer abilities.

Pixilate: While we want to reduce harm to walls, I don't believe applying offensive pressure would be the best and only solution. My concern is that applying that much pressure on walls could apply too much pressure to our offensive checks.

Levitate: Levitate does allow us to avoid most all hazards and allows us to counter Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Colossoil pretty well. I'm not completely sold if this is the direction we want to go in.

Magic Bounce: This ability is very interesting. While Natural Cure allows CAP22 to absorb status, Magic Bounce actually deters an opposing wall from using the status move in the first place. I'd like to hear more about this ability.

 

[Absolclaw]

I personally feel that CAP would be better of having an ability that focuses on its Utility, else I fear we may have an accidental powerhouse on our hands. This is why I personally like the suggestions along the lines of Natural Cure and Frisk.

I'm just going to throw two ideas out there; the first is Synchronize, as a different way of dealing with potential incoming status. Compared to Natural Cure, Synchronize is more of a way of discouraging status being thrown about in the first place, at the cost of still being susceptible to them of course. Magic Bounce is probably the superior option as it is more flexible, but I felt like it was worth suggesting anyway.

The other, more silly idea is Pickpocket/Magician. Either stay in and have your item stolen, or switch out and take a Parting Shot to the face. Granted, not having your own item is pretty annoying, but the potential to cripple the other player further sounds decently enticing.

I'm not sure how I feel about Pixilate. While it is true that there aren't many powerful Fairy moves, my problem with abilities that power us up is that we have no idea what our stats even look like yet, and we may end up setting ourselves to be too powerful by accident.

 

[Project_Mars]

Synchronize wouldn't discourage Thundurus and other electric-types using Thunder Wave on PS'mon though, since Electric-types can't be paralyzed. Ditto with Fire-types and WoW.

 

[VannAccessible]

Some more thoughts on other abilities.

Contrary: On the one hand, I can see the rationale in wanting to discourage Magic Bounce/Rebound users from jumping in and mucking up our Parting Shot schnanigans by dropping our own stats. However, at the end of the day, Contrary is still anti-concept. With boosted stats (or potential abuse with Superpower/CC), Contrary simply has too much risk of turning CAP22 into a sweeper. CAPs role is a pivot, and this ability detracts from that.

Mold Breaker: The more pro-concept alternative to Contrary. This allows CAP to PS the Magic Bouncers and still give them the appropriate stat drops and pivot out. This is very worth considering.
As far as offensive utilities, MB allows CAP to potentially OHKO Dragonite with its Fairy STAB.

Rattled, Defiant, Competitive: Boosted stats are for sweepers, not pivots. Anti-concept, I'm afraid.

Pixelate: Low base power of Moonblast/Play Rough aside, the dual STAB of Fighting and Fairy should not be underestimated. Steel types which often love to absorb a Fairy attack such as Heatran have to be wary of the potential Close Combat or Superpower. Psychic types which would normally easily switch into Fighting moves, like Lati@s, have to deal with the risk of being hit with a Fairy STAB.
Pixelate isn't a terrible idea, but I think there are better abilities. Fairy moves are not all CAP has to work with. Fighting STAB supplemented by Fairy STAB is a very real threat as it is, before even considering PS. Besides, CAP isn't meant to be an all out offensive mon. It doesn't need to wreck the meta with nuclear Hyper Voices like Mega Gardevoir to be threatening.

Aroma Veil: While Taunt immunity is nifty for our Parting Shots, with its nice dual STAB, I don't believe CAP will be Taunt fodder. Also consider, most users of Taunt are either walls CAP has no business switching in on to begin with, like Heatran or Skarmory, too slow to hit it with Taunt in a 1V1 situation, or weak to its STABs. Aroma Veil is underwhelming.

Magic Bounce: This seems far too good an ability. A role of deflecting hazards distracts from the original Parting Shot utility. For status immunity, I feel Natural Cure is much more pro-concept, as it encourages the user to pivot out.

Synchronize: Doesnt prevent status, and again, Natural Cure is more pro-concept for status reasons.

Pickpocket: Very niche, and makes CAP risk taking items it doesn't want, such as Black Sludge or Choice Scarf. Not a fan.

In conclusion of the newer abilities mentioned, I'd be most inclined to support Mold Breaker. Natural Cure, Levitate and Frisk are all very highly viable abilities for a pivot.

 

[calvinball]

Magic Bounce: This seems far too good an ability. A role of deflecting hazards distracts from the original Parting Shot utility. For status immunity, I feel Natural Cure is much more pro-concept, as it encourages the user to pivot out.

Why is hazard deflection anti-concept (though I would point out that Magic Bounce also deflects status)? Switch in, bounce the Toxic or Stealth Rock, Parting Shot out and bring in the appropriate attacker. That sounds like potential another aspect of pivoting. I don't mean to say Magic Bounce has to be the ability - I'm a bit worried about it myself - but I'd appreciate a little more elaboration if possible.