CAP 22 CAP 22 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

[Deck Knight]

I've added aubisio's Offensive and kyubic's Offensive Utility (Spikes) set to the OP. I'll provide commentary to some of the other sets below:

Name: Wishful Thinking
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Focus Blast HP Fire / HP Ground
Move 3: Wish
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 232 HP /36 SpA / 240 Spe
Nature: Modest

I think the set (before amendments) is trying to do too much at once and is getting lost in the shuffle. In the first place, ANY set with Wish and defensive investment should be prioritizing HP. Life Orb's HP burn is not significant enough to affect the gains from HP Investment, which in this case 232 HP reduces damage more than 140 Def/100 SpD for either stats. 232 HP EVs also put CAP at 367 HP, which avoids 1HP of additional damage from Spikes and is fairly close to an ideal Life Orb number.

Furthermore, If you look at Speed Tiers in CAP, the only thing 337 Spe is tying is +Spe Crucibelle, but Crucibelle is almost always going to Mega and HP Ground can't OHKO Mega Crucibelle (and it only KO's base Crucibelle about 50% of the time if you catch it on a switch). For this reason since the set is running Modest you should lower the Spe EVs to 240 (334 Spe) to Outpace +Spe Garchomp for the easy Moonblast KO, and put the 12 EVs gained this way into SpA, which actually nets some reliable KOs and 2HKOs. The result is the edited spread.

As far as HP Ground vs HP Fire, HP Fire's only viable target is Mega Scizor, which could otherwise Roost off a missed Focus Blast. HP Ground hits everything else just as hard, but it has less utility against opponents like Ferrothorn that are ground-neutral. I *suppose* you could run HP Fire for that purpose but it would have no other useful targets compared to Focus Blast or HP Ground. In a set like this, Aura Sphere has limited potential because we're not maximizing CAP's speed to ensure it hits the opponent first. Focus Blast is less reliable but much, much stronger.

If there is some agreement after the next phase I would like to push this amended set up into the For Consideration section.

Calcs:
36+ SpA Life Orb Pangoro Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Crucibelle: 177-211 (50 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
36+ SpA Life Orb Pangoro Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 408-484 (126.3 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
36+ SpA Life Orb Pangoro Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 276-328 (85.4 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
36+ SpA Life Orb Pangoro Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 181-214 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Name: Offensive
Move 1: Aura Sphere
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Flame Burst
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Why should Parting Shot be run in the 4th slot over Hidden Power Ground? The problem with Fire or Ground coverage is that if we provide CAP with one, the other is freed up for Hidden Power. Since both Fire AND Ground strike counters in different ways (including 4x hits) this makes the coverage moves problematic. Even with something as mediocre as Flame Burst, I feel that level of coverage sucks up a moveslot to make CAP more an all-purpose attacker rather a Pokemon defined by Parting Shot.

I'm very wary of Fire and Ground coverage to begin with, but before I make a final determination I'd like an argument as to why it would not be overpowered to allow a potential set with both coverage types to emerge, and what that 4-Attack set would do to discourage Parting Shot.

Name: Offensive Pivot / Stallbreaker
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Move 3: Sludge Wave / Taunt
Move 4: Parting Shot / Taunt
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

The biggest issue with this set is the Slashitis. While I like the idea of 3 Attack + Parting Shot, that isn't what this set is because it tries to shoehorn Taunt in. Taunt shouldn't be on a Specs set at all, and unfortunately if we select Taunt and Parting Shot this set is indistinguishable from a prior submission. My recommendation is to split out a 3-Attack Specs set into its own separate set and make edits you see fit to the original Dual STAB + Taunt submission.

- - - - -
For everyone else:

EDIT: Had a discussion with HeaL and decided snake_rattler's needed a little more work. Please re-read and adjust accordingly.

We now have 3 sets in Under Consideration. The first is an Imprison Set with Sludge Wave and Knock Off as the third move options. What is the consensus of the community on these two moves and their offensive / support capabilities?

The second is a Taunt option set based around Dual STABs and Taunt. This is a minimalistic basic set and I'd like to get feedback on pushing it into Accepted, perhaps with a slash for Aura Sphere / Focus Blast.

The final set is a utility Spikes set with STABs and Parting Shot. I'd like to firm up consensus on whether Spikes' fixed damage puts too many restraints around our counters or whether it assists Parting Shot in wearing down opposing teams generally.

Please focus on these submissions at this time, and do not submit any more sets until these 3 are discussed. Additional submissions are temporarily closed.

 

[snake]

For everyone else:

We now have 3 sets in Under Consideration. The first is an Imprison Set with Sludge Wave and Knock Off as the third move options. What is the consensus of the community on these two moves and their offensive / support capabilities?

The second is a Taunt option set based around STABs and a selection between coverage OR Parting Shot. I'd like to firm up consensus on Taunt being pro-or anti concept and whether Taunt + Parting Shot is more viable than Taunt + Coverage.

The final set is a utility Spikes set with STABs and Parting Shot. I'd like to firm up consensus on whether Spikes' fixed damage puts too many restraints around our counters or whether it assists Parting Shot in wearing down opposing teams generally.

Please focus on these submissions at this time, and do not submit any more sets until these 3 are discussed. Additional submissions are temporarily closed.

Name: Imprison Shot
Move 1: Imprison
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Sludge Wave / Knock Off
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

The Imprison set is very interesting, but unfortunately I see some flaws with it. While Imprisoning Moonblast helps our match up with Clefable immensely, Imprison and Parting Shot see no use on other Pokemon, so that leaves Sludge Wave and Knock Off as our next three moves to imprison. Most Knock Off users have ways to get around CAP22 other than removing its item, but having the assurance of keeping its item (unless it faces Trick) is very nice. Sludge Wave, however, is different. Many Poison-types run other STAB moves other than Sludge Wave. Gengar, Mollux, and Plasmanta are the most common users of the move, and sometimes they run Sludge Bomb for the increased Poison chance. Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss commonly run Sludge Bomb (or Clear Smog in Amoonguss's case), so Imprison doesn't phase them at all. However, even though there are these faults with this set, I do like the concept of this set. There is no reason why we should not have Imprison in our movepool. I can't think of any modifications I'd like to suggest on the set, but I may come back later if I think of anything.

Name: Offensive Utility (Spikes)
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Parting Shot
Move 3: Taunt
Move 4: Spikes Toxic Spikes
Ability: Natural Cure / Aroma Veil
Item: Leftovers / Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

On the Utility set, I think Toxic Spikes would be better to have than Spikes. First, it takes one less turn to set them up, which is important given that CAP22 will be switching a lot. Second, Spikes wears down offensive checks very quickly, which is not necessary on CAP22. Rather, we should focus on wearing down defensive checks, and Toxic Spikes does the job very well. Additionally, because Toxic Spikes are automatically cleared by grounded Poison-types switching in, the move solidifies Poison-types as true counters to CAP22.

 

[nyttyn]

We now have 3 sets in Under Consideration. The first is an Imprison Set with Sludge Wave and Knock Off as the third move options. What is the consensus of the community on these two moves and their offensive / support capabilities?

imprison is gimmicky garbage that only exists to try and indirectly dunk Clefable. Just use sludge wave instead, it already scores a 2hko that does a healthy chunk of damage, and there's no reason to give up one of our (very potent!) STABs just to dunk clefable and opposing cap 22 and nothing else (since this set would leave us hard-walled by steels, fire types, and poison types, which i don't think is an acceptable tradeoff for a move that only wins vs clefable if we swap into something not named moonblast, or they swap clefable in on us).

 

[Deck Knight]

imprison is gimmicky garbage that only exists to try and indirectly dunk Clefable. Just use sludge wave instead, it already scores a 2hko that does a healthy chunk of damage, and there's no reason to give up one of our (very potent!) STABs just to dunk clefable and opposing cap 22 and nothing else (since this set would leave us hard-walled by steels, fire types, and poison types, which i don't think is an acceptable tradeoff for a move that only wins vs clefable if we swap into something not named moonblast, or they swap clefable in on us).

Imprison has more utility than that, although it's very matchup based as to whether you would use it. The Knock Off variant is more practical for most battles. In either case if the opponent has Pokemon you know will utilize any of the Imprisoned moves and will attempt a switchin or revenge kill (which would be Clefable and other CAP 22s in this case), Imprison gives you that flexibility to control their next switch. It not only ensures that CAP will keep its item against common Knock Off users, it ensures that opposing Knock Off users are prevented from even selecting it, so if you really don't want your Volkraken to lose its Scarf, after you Imprison Knock Off you can PS to it (provided that's a smart move, against Soil it isn't) and there is no chance the opponent can Knock Off on the switched-in mon either. This also works against things like Knock Off Landorus-T and Azumarill, where you have one less coverage move to account for when you Parting Shot out.

The point being Imprison isn't superfluous or just about donking Clefable, although it enhances the ability to do so by ensuring it's only going to use a status move that turn. Imprison gets a bad rap for being gimmicky, but as I said when I initially proposed it, Imprison has never really had the tools to partner with effectively, and I think Parting Shot qualifies as one of those tools.

RE: snake_rattler: Sludge Wave's limited distribution is actually something I'd argue makes it better than Sludge Bomb for maintaining our threat list, as I want to maintain M-Venu and friends as reliable counters. They still are if their Sludge Bomb is imprisoned but in this case Sludge Wave's niche is maximizing damage specifically to Clefable (and I guess Azumarill and a few other bulky mons like Pyroak) while not allowing CAP to make life difficult for too many Poison-type counters. Unlike the drop from Moonblast to Dazzling Gleam for something like Clefable, the drop from Sludge Wave to Sludge Bomb for those Pokemon is negligible and I honestly don't see them shifting moves just because of CAP 22.

 

[Tmi489]

Imprison: Isn't there a move, called Dazzling Gleam? We might have to add that, and I think it does enough to be a threat anyways. Sludge Wave is in the same boat (Sludge Bomb as said before), but I'm not sure about the balance. Plus the poison type moves should deal enough anyways to out KO Clefable.
Offensive Pivot: Looks like a nice set, so I can't comment on it well. Maybe a weaker poison move (Clear Smog) could be used?
(T) Spikes: I feel like it's a bit anti-concept, since there's an easy chance you can just sash and get 2 layers, or not be able to take out walls that can heal due to 1 layer. I feel the same way as snake for spikes.

imprison is gimmicky garbage that only exists to try and indirectly dunk Clefable. Just use sludge wave instead, it already scores a 2hko that does a healthy chunk of damage, and there's no reason to give up one of our (very potent!) STABs just to dunk clefable and opposing cap 22 and nothing else (since this set would leave us hard-walled by steels, fire types, and poison types, which i don't think is an acceptable tradeoff for a move that only wins vs clefable if we swap into something not named moonblast, or they swap clefable in on us).

Aren't we supposed to be walled by fire/poison? We might have to do something else to get the fighting STAB since steel. But still fighting isn't as good as you said, IMO (but lots of stuff would get harmed). Is there a problem with having it in the movepool at all?

 

[Flargliklarfglik]

Imprison is just too situational, and it doesn't fit on offensive characters that well. The imprison would usually do nothing in a fight, while as using the slot for taunt allows you to stop set ups, and can prevent people using status moves on the pokemon you switch in through parting shots. Also it helps address the swords dance counter. Locking people into damage and lowering their damage is just a really useful combination.

Sludge wave doesn't seem to be the best coverage option because poison, fairy, and fighting all share the common resist from poison. If you absolutely must have something super effective on fairy, you can always use flash cannon. However I still don't think he needs coverage since he is designed to switch out...

The offensive pivot seems fairly good with the taunt, except if you went with choice specs it wouldn't be able to taunt + parting shots. I think it would be a solid pick with a non-choice item.

The spikes build I think is really solid though since some enemies may have to switch to lose their debuffs, tripping the spikes.

 

[snake]

Name: Offensive Pivot / Stallbreaker Choice Specs
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Move 3: Sludge Wave / Taunt
Move 4: Parting Shot / Taunt
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Name: Taunt-Shot
Move 1: Aura Sphere
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Taunt / Sludge Wave
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

It has come to my attention that my original set has too much going on, so I am changing mine exclusively into a Choice Specs set and proposing an edit to Aubisio's Life Orb set. These two movesets achieve what I wanted in my original submission.

 

[Ba'al]

On mobile so Im not going to post a moveset but Simple Beam could have similar utility to Taunt in that it forces switches because staying in means both losing your ability and being hit with double the kapow of PS, and switching means the switch in gets hit with PS, and you can pivot out accordingly.

 

[Samoyed]

It has come to my attention that my original set has too much going on, so I am changing mine exclusively into a Choice Specs set and proposing an edit to Aubisio's Life Orb set. These two movesets achieve what I wanted in my original submission.

I like your suggestion and i was suggesting a STAB/STAB/Coverage/PS set I would have it as that but the focal point of my suggested set is Taunt. I feel that a more offensively oriented set with Poison coverage is definitely a set worth considering however too and if someone had ninja'd me on my Taunt set I would have proposed that.

 

[Korski]

Yeah with all due respect to Deck Knight the Imprison set is gimmicky at best. There is nothing wrong with giving the CAP Imprison since all the set really does is have a chance to sort of annoy something every once in a while, but I'm pretty sure that it would be a waste of time to run it on a set (although Knock Off I think maybe should get some discussion). You're not stopping Clefable from using Thunder Wave, Calm Mind, Soft-Boiled, Wish, Protect, or Stealth Rock (I'd rather it use Moonblast than those moves, honestly), and you're not making the most out of face-offs with opposing CAP22s or Knock Off users. And if the CAP gets Sludge Bomb/Wave as its only non-HP coverage (which I think it should), then Clefable's not switching in anyways. Any way you slice it, if Imprison is ever going to be a competitively viable move (hard to imagine), it's not going to be on an offensive Poke with good dual-STABs and a pivoting move.

Next, I think hazard stuff is bad territory to enter into. Hazards define movesets, and the goals of this concept already center entirely around a different kind of utility. If we add Spikes and/or Rapid Spin to the movepool, they will not be competing for a moveslot with STABs or coverage moves; they will be competing directly with Parting Shot. We don't need that.

Taunt is really the best thing there is to go with Parting Shot, hands down. It shuts down passive mons and forces the use of attacking moves that we can nerf with Parting Shot. It's an awesome combination and we shouldn't mess with it, imo. If you want to do 3 attacks + Parting Shot or 4 attacks, that's fine too, can't be avoided, but beyond Taunt there is really no support or utility move I can think of that doesn't directly threaten the use of Parting Shot. Wish is dubiously competitive with CAP's HP, but it plays well with Parting Shot and so I would consider it an exception.

 

[Kyubics]

Okay, so since it was my set, I'm going to talk a little bit about Spikes and why I think that CAP 22 should get access to the move.

Next, I think hazard stuff is bad territory to enter into. Hazards define movesets, and the goals of this concept already center entirely around a different kind of utility. If we add Spikes and/or Rapid Spin to the movepool, they will not be competing for a moveslot with STABs or coverage moves; they will be competing directly with Parting Shot. We don't need that.

I'll start with this because it has the easiest answer. Simply put, Spikes will not compete with Parting Shot for a moveslot because they have such great synergy with each other. Parting Shot makes Spikes so much better because anything that's hit with it wants to switch out to loose the stat drops, forcing whatever comes in to take hazard damage. I agree with the fact that hazard removal may compete with Parting Shot, but I really don't think that Spikes would because of this.

(T) Spikes: I feel like it's a bit anti-concept, since there's an easy chance you can just sash and get 2 layers, or not be able to take out walls that can heal due to 1 layer. I feel the same way as snake for spikes.

In the same vein, how is this anti-concept? A sash lead set, while undoubtably uncommon, would almost certainly utilise Parting Shot due to the momentum it gains. Spikes/PShot/Taunt/STAB would be perfectly acceptable as CAP 22 could pivot out into a set-up sweeper, most likely, on the HO teams it finds itself on after setting as many spikes as it could. Of course, it is ruined by priority, but that is meant to be the case with all of these sets, so I really don't see the problem with this.

Spikes messes with our checks and counters too much. Many of CAP 22's checks are grounded, meaning they will have a lot more difficult time switching into CAP 22 reliably. I get that Spikes is a move that synergizes well with VoltTurn in general, but given that we are making a CAP here, we do not want to give our CAP Spikes if it is going to mess with its checks and counters, which it would.

Actually, not a whole lot of dedicated checks and counters are affected. Flying types such as Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y and, to an extent, AV Tornadus-T are not affected at all; Mega Venusaur forces a 50/50 on whether it recovers or goes for Slude Bomb, so CAP 22 can't safely Taunt it; Amoongus has Regenerator so can still repeatedly check us and, like Mega Venusaur, can threaten us with a Poison STAB while we Taunt; Mollux and Fidgit can still safely switch in and Rapid Spin away any Spikes, something that is affected by neither Taunt nor Parting Shot, and Mollux like the others, forces a 50/50 between attacking and recovering, and finally, Fire Types such as Volcanion and Volkraken are hit decently by our neutral Fighting STAB anyway so we're not solid checks. The only Pokemon on our threatlist that would be hugely affected would be Plasmanta, however I think that is a fair trade for more easily threatening passive Pokemon like Chansey and Hippowdon. The fact that Spikes wears down threatening priority users is actually a positive thing because, once they are removed, CAP 22 can safely attack and then use Parting Shot without needing much prediction to switch out rather than being threatened out before it can use Parting Shot.

On the Utility set, I think Toxic Spikes would be better to have than Spikes. First, it takes one less turn to set them up, which is important given that CAP22 will be switching a lot. Second, Spikes wears down offensive checks very quickly, which is not necessary on CAP22. Rather, we should focus on wearing down defensive checks, and Toxic Spikes does the job very well. Additionally, because Toxic Spikes are automatically cleared by grounded Poison-types switching in, the move solidifies Poison-types as true counters to CAP22.

Now to the most difficult part:
First of all, in my opinion, two layers of Spikes are better than two of Toxic Spikes anyway because the opposing Pokemon takes damage directly on the switch-in instead of having to wait a couple of turns. For example, an opposing Pokemon switches in on a resisted Moonblast, becoming Badly Poisoned. The next turn, they are hit with either Taunt or Parting Shot, depending on whether they are passive or offensive. The following turn they switch out to remove themselves of -1 offenses or Taunt. In this scenario, the opposing Pokemon only takes two turns of poison, which equates to almost the same amount of damage as two layers of Spikes. This, you may think, may make them even. However, Spikes has the added capacity to do more damage when a third layer is set, something Toxic Spikes cannot do. Furthermore, have only one layer of Toxic Spikes can in fact be detrimental due to how it inflicts regular Poison on something that you would much rather to be Badly Poisoned instead. Toxic Spikes are also much easier to remove so CAP 22 may end up having to set them up more throughout a match that it would've done with Spikes.
In answer to your second point, it is necessary to threaten some offensive Pokemon because we can't threaten then with Parting Shot if they use priority, as I mentioned before.
Finally, Toxic Spikes being cleared by Poison Types is actually extremely detrimental because it means that, if this CAP sets them, they will almost never stay up on the other side of the field due to how easy it is for Poison Types to switch in on us. If the opponent has a Poison Types (which may become more likely after the introduction on CAP 22) it means that every time CAP 22 is out it will switch in, removing the Toxic Spikes that are set up. This adds. to the previous point that I made about how Toxic Spikes will probably need more setting up throughout the duration of the match. This means that Toxic Spikes will probably not be viable due to it being, in most matchups, a waste of a moveslot. It is similar in some respects to building a Rapid Spin user that is hardwalled by Ghost Types, something that would mean that it would be very ineffective at using Rapid Spin and why good Rapid Spin users, like Colossoil can beat them.

On a separate and somewhat unrelated note, I agree that recovery and hazard removal would be too much for this CAP due to their competition with Parting Shot but that we must have access to Taunt to be effective, as I mentioned in my previous post. Though I see the point about SpDef Talon, it requires good prediction from the user to CAP 22 to remotely threaten it and even then it can function while Taunted as long as it has hazard removal in the back. It is nothing new to say that Talonflame if threatened by Stealth Rock. I also really support the changes snake_rattler proposed to create a Specs and a Taunt set, though it might be worth slashing HP Ground or Fire over Sludge Wave or Parting Shot on the Choice Specs set.

 

[david0895]

As I already talked about these moves, I'm going to say my opinion about Imprison set and Fire/Ground coverage:

Name: Imprison Shot
Move 1: Imprison
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Sludge Wave / Knock Off
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

I don't find particular problems with this set, but probably will have low usage since it's dedicated only to Clefable.
Also about Sludge Wave users: Mollux and Plasmanta have no problem to change from Sludge Wave to Sludge Bomb, making Imprison useless against them.

Moves I want more discussion on:
- Fire/Ground coverage (outside Hidden Power)

A Fire move could be a good idea for predicting the Steel switch-ins that check CAP22:

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 302-359 (88 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 302-359 (88 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 234-276 (96.6 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 234-276 (96.6 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 169-200 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not sure about giving him a more powerful move because it does to much damage:
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Lucario Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Lucario Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 304-358 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Lucario Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 242-286 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also I don't see a real motivation to use a Ground move, since will have the same power of Focus Blast:
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 343-406 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 343-406 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 255-302 (70 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 234-277 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 234-278 (68.4 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 266-316 (89.5 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 268-317 (90.2 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

In the end I want to add that I have seen no consideration about Close Combat, which is useful to deal easily with Chansey:

4 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 367-432 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 344-408 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

 

[Natu Worry]

Moveset Submission

Name: Parting Slumber
Move 1: Yawn
Move 2: Parting Shot
Move 3: Moonblast
Move 4: Aura Sphere
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Simple but very effective. This set works exactly like DPP Yawn-Baton Pass Jolteon and the current RU's Yawn-U-turn Uxie. On the turn you threaten something out you click Yawn, what happens next is your opponent is given an ultimatum. Either they stay in and let their mon go to sleep or they switch out while you click Parting Shot and gain momentum.

 

[Deck Knight]

Name: Offensive Pivot
Move 1: Parting Shot
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Aura Sphere / Focus Blast Close Combat
Move 4: Close Combat / Knock Off / (Energy Ball / Grass Knot)
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 204 Atk / 52 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive

• Parting Shot is the signature move of CAP22 that reduce Atk and SpA
• Moonblast is the Fairy STAB that destroy Fighting types like Keldeo, Tomohawk and Revenankh.
• Aura Sphere is he fighting STAB move with perfect accuracy that does heavy damage to Steel type like Ferrothorn, Heatran and Skarmory. If you want more power use Focus Blast, but remember the miss chance
• Close Combat is a good move that guarantee a 2HKO on Chansey and a OHKO on Colossoil.
• Knock Off can be used to remove Chansey's Eviolite, Energy Ball scores a 2HKO on Hippowdon, Krilowatt, and Rotom-W with a 2HKO on Mega Slowbro w/ Spikes or SR. (Grass Knot hits Hippowdon and Mega Slowbro harder, but is significantly weaker against Krilowatt and Rotom-W)
• Natural Cure allow CAP22 to absorb a status condition
• Life Orb is the best item to boost its moves and guarantee a lot of OHKO and 2HKO
• Naive is chosen over Hasty in order to allow CAP22 to take better the moves of the Dragon types like Dragonite or Garchomp and OHKO back with Moonblast (assuming that Multiscale is broken).

As the only set currently submitted with Close Combat, I've morphed this set into a mixed offensive pivot and adjusted EVs accordingly. With these EVs, Close Combat always OHKO's Standard AV Colossoil, and the 4th move choice comes down to additional utility against bulky Pokemon by removing their items or having an additional offensive option for physically defensive Pokemon. Grass coverage does very well against several of these threats while retaining all of our checks and counters (Fire/Poison/Flying).

 

[Project_Mars]

I agree with the "Imprison is too gimmicky to work" line. Imprisoning Knock Off seems ineffectual since very little would want to use Knock Off vs this anyways due to the 4x resist. I suppose there is merit to using it to ease prediction for switch-ins, but PS'Mon's STABs should hit them for fairly decent damage on a switch-in anyways. Sludge Wave's general lack of wide-spread distribution is another point to it being a gimmick: Sure it will be great for PS'mon, but only, say, one battle out of every ten or so. For an Imprison set to be worth it, it would have to lock out a fairly meaningful move that would cause a player to think twice about switching in on PS'Mon that is also fairly common. Problem is there aren't a whole lot of those that would be able to fit.

I'm mixed on Spikes/Toxic Spikes mainly because I am a huge fan of Taunt. On one hand STAB/(T)Spikes/Taunt/PS could make for a nice lead option, on the other hand it could also just turn into STAB/STAB/(T)Spikes/Taunt which may not be the best thing to go with. Personally, I am more of a fan of Taunt because it is a good way to force switches on Walls/Set-Up Pokemon and has good synergy with Parting Shot. Spikes/Toxic Spikes is good for punishing switches, but does not itself cause switches to happen. If i had to pick one of them, Taunt would be my choice.

 

[Deck Knight]

Updates to second post:

Accepted Sets:
I've moved the basic Taunt-shot and Taunt + Spikes set into Accepted Sets. Taunt has received overwhelming support in the discussion thread, does not interfere with Parting Shot, and stifles the defensive play that hampers Parting Shot as a strategy.

Spikes has a more mixed reception because hazards *can* be a distraction and do weaken some of our checks if they must come in repeatedly, however the general tenor of sets has been that the primary STAB is Moonblast while the Fighting STAB is a very strong but not set-critical option. Additionally, many of our checks and counters either aren't affected at all or have recovery options that force a 50/50 as to whether CAP should stay in to Taunt or Parting Shot out.

For these reasons I believe Spikes does not compete as much with Parting Shot as it does with the secondary STAB, even when factoring in access to Taunt. All 3 moves work together well on a pivoting set, and since our concept is about Parting Shot and not about utilizing our typing or STABs, I'm comfortable with placing it firmly in the accepted column.

Under Consideration:
I've removed the Imprison Set, since general community consensus is Imprison does not warrant its own set slot. It might be a fun Other Option, but not as a main set choice.

I have pushed 4 sets into Under Consideration for discussion.

The first is a Bulkier Wish set that outspeeds Garchomp, OHKOs it with Moonblast, and runs a Modest nature. The set can pass 183 HP Wishes to team members while softening the blow with Parting Shot. The second slot is used as either a powerful secondary STAB or as coverage to catch checks off guard. Because the set is bulkier it will often survive hits that would OHKO a 0/4 spread and therefore actually get a chance to benefit from its own Wish or hit a check twice.

I'd like general commentary on the relationship between Wish and Parting Shot, and on whether CAP should always be pushing for the highest possible speed tier with our sets.

Next up are a few sets that explore mixed attacking and coverage. The mixed set incorporates Close Combat and a choice between Knock Off and Grass Coverage to address physical threats that can take a predicted Close Combat. Parting Shot is the final move to pivot in and out.

The Specs set utilizes dual STAB and Sludge Wave as coverage for Fairy-type opponents, with Parting Shot as the 4th move to pivot out on a prediction.

I would like to discuss these coverage options (Grass, Poison) as well as finalize community consensus on others (Fire, Ground, some people have mentioned Flash Cannon as well on PS.)

The final set is another support-oriented set, utilizing Yawn to put pressure on an opponent to switch, and Parting Shot to determine whether you'll be facing a sleeping -1/-1 mon or an awake -1/-1 mon.

I'd like this set to be the branching point to discuss other support moves as well, like Thunder Wave and/or Toxic and how they should interact with CAP's sets. [Toxic is a guaranteed move.]

New Submissions are once again closed temporarily.

 

[Alfalfa]

Why should Parting Shot be run in the 4th slot over Hidden Power Ground? The problem with Fire or Ground coverage is that if we provide CAP with one, the other is freed up for Hidden Power. Since both Fire AND Ground strike counters in different ways (including 4x hits) this makes the coverage moves problematic. Even with something as mediocre as Flame Burst, I feel that level of coverage sucks up a moveslot to make CAP more an all-purpose attacker rather a Pokemon defined by Parting Shot.

I have a deleted post from the Naviathan project with the deletion reasoning suggesting that we do not necessarily have to give the CAP we are creating moves that every other Pokemon has (Hidden Power, Protect, Substitute, etc., though this was in regards to whether or not Naviathan should get Substitute). If I am interpreting this correctly, we do not necessarily have to give CAP 22 Hidden Power and can give CAP 22 solely Flame Burst for coverage.

 

[Deck Knight]

I have a deleted post from the Naviathan project with the deletion reasoning suggesting that we do not necessarily have to give the CAP we are creating moves that every other Pokemon has (Hidden Power, Protect, Substitute, etc., though this was in regards to whether or not Naviathan should get Substitute). If I am interpreting this correctly, we do not necessarily have to give CAP 22 Hidden Power and can give CAP 22 solely Flame Burst for coverage.

From a technical perspective this is correct - however it should only be done in extraordinary circumstances and it requires both the section leader and TL (and the mods to an extent) agree on it. I don't view "we don't have to have Hidden Power" as a justification for Flame Burst though. If anything it just convinces me Flame Burst is out of place and if CAP wants to have Fire coverage it should utilize Hidden Power for that at the inherent opportunity cost of Hidden Powers of other types.

 

[snake]

Name: Choice Specs
Move 1: Moonblast
Move 2: Aura Sphere / Focus Blast
Move 3: Sludge Wave
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Since Aubisio doesn't want Sludge Wave on his LO set, and none of the other sets really conform to having Sludge Wave as a coverage move with 252 SpA, I think it might be best to slash my set with Life Orb. If this isn't the right thing to do, I just want to make it clear that I'm not advocating Sludge Wave solely for a Choice Specs set; Life Orb sets should be able to take advantage of the move as well.

Coverage Arguments:

A Fire move could be a good idea for predicting the Steel switch-ins that check CAP22:

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 302-359 (88 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Scizor: 302-359 (88 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 234-276 (96.6 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 234-276 (96.6 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flame Burst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 169-200 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not sure about giving him a more powerful move because it does to much damage:
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Lucario Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Lucario Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 304-358 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Lucario Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 242-286 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also I don't see a real motivation to use a Ground move, since will have the same power of Focus Blast:
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 343-406 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 343-406 (88.8 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 255-302 (70 - 82.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 234-277 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volkraken: 234-278 (68.4 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 266-316 (89.5 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 268-317 (90.2 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

First off, giving CAP22 Fire-type coverage weakens Steel-types' ability to check CAP22, which I think is very important. Even if Flame Burst didn't OHKO Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, and Cawmodore, I would oppose it since we have perfectly good Fighting-type moves to use to check these Pokemon; we don't need Flame Burst to do that for us. If someone is really worried about these Pokemon that much, they can sacrifice a speed point and a moveslot for Hidden Power Fire.

Second, I see a very real motivation to use a Ground-type move, especially Earth Power. It hits basically our entire threatlist super effectively with a few exceptions. Yes, your calcs show that Focus Blast and Earth Power do about the same amount of damage to some Steel- and Fire-types, but you fail to list the Poison-types that hard hit super effectively by Ground-type coverage. In addition, Earth Power's reliable accuracy makes it a much better option than Focus Blast. We even have precedence of this in our own metagame: Life Orb Tomohawk. Even though CAP22 and Tomohawk have different checks, Life Orb Tomohawk sometimes forgoes Focus Blast or Aura Sphere for Earth Power if it doesn't run both Fighting- and Ground-type moves at the same time. I don't like walls of calcs, as they hurt my eyes to read, but if I need to show calcs on why Earth Power make CAP22 into a pure offensive monster, I will.

My opinion on Fire- and Ground-type coverage, if you haven't guessed already, is limiting CAP22 to Hidden Power Fire and Hidden Power Ground. They're good enough if CAP22 needs to hit certain targets and is afraid of missing Focus Blast.


I still support Poison-type coverage, as Sludge Wave helps CAP22 break Clefable. In one of my previous posts, I explained why it improves our match up with it but doesn't stop Clefable from crippling CAP22 in most cases. While it does 2HKO Pyroak, Azumarill, and Mega Gardevoir, I don't think these are as bad as beating those Steel-types. Pyroak is a passive Pokemon that we should be able to threaten imo. Azumarill and Mega Gardevoir are already 2HKOed by Life Orb Moonblast, so while doing more damage with Sludge Wave might seem too overwhelming, I'm not suggesting that we turn a 3HKO into a 2HKO. In addition, Azumarill can hit CAP22 hard with Aqua Jet. Bottom line, Sludge Wave is a good way to improve our match up with Clefable without causing too much collateral damage to CAP22's check list and it solidifies Poison-types as true counters to CAP22.

As for Grass-type coverage, it hits very little on our threatlist - only Azumarill. However, as I've stated in my paragraph about Poison-type coverage, Azumarill is already 2HKOed by Moonblast, so again, this isn't a 3HKO being turned into a 2HKO. Really, I see no reason not to include Energy Ball or Grass Knot given how it doesn't hit much on our threatlist. What I am worried about is Giga Drain. While it doesn't have STAB, I fear the semi-reliable recovery might give CAP22 too much longevity. However, we do need to remember that running Giga Drain sacrifices a moveslot that could be taken up by a more useful coverage move. I still haven't really formed an opinion on it, but I wanted to get it in the discussion.

 

[david0895]

First off, giving CAP22 Fire-type coverage weakens Steel-types' ability to check CAP22, which I think is very important. Even if Flame Burst didn't OHKO Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross, and Cawmodore, I would oppose it since we have perfectly good Fighting-type moves to use to check these Pokemon; we don't need Flame Burst to do that for us. If someone is really worried about these Pokemon that much, they can sacrifice a speed point and a moveslot for Hidden Power Fire.

The first part of calcs are made with that pokemon because CAP22 must be checked with priority moves.
Also: CAP22 must threaten Steel types. With a Fire move, it's more easy since that pokémon cannot enter safely.

but you fail to list the Poison-types that hard hit super effectively by Ground-type coverage.

Thanks for reminding me Poison types: since Poison types are supposed to counter CAP22, I'm against a Ground move, because, with that, they cannot even check him (only Scarf Mollux/Plasmanta/Crucibelle are faster)

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Mollux: 452-536 (118 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Plasmanta: 478-567 (147.5 - 175%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Crucibelle: 385-458 (108.7 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Alfalfa]

The first part of calcs are made with that pokemon because CAP22 must be checked with priority moves.
Also: CAP22 must threaten Steel types. With a Fire move, it's more easy since that pokémon cannot enter safely.

Thanks for reminding me Poison types: since Poison types are supposed to counter CAP22, I'm against a Ground move, because, with that, they cannot even check him (only Scarf Mollux/Plasmanta/Crucibelle are faster)

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Mollux: 452-536 (118 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Plasmanta: 478-567 (147.5 - 175%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Crucibelle: 385-458 (108.7 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I agree with you that CAP 22 should not have Ground coverage (even Hidden Power Ground), but Earth Power in particular is just rather strong for this CAP, as is Flamethrower. If we calced Hidden Power Ground:

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Hidden Power Ground vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Mollux: 302-359 (78.8 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Plasmanta: 322-380 (99.3 - 117.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Crucibelle: 260-307 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There is a clear drop in power between Hidden Power Ground and Earth Power, but both of them illustrate how potent Ground coverage can be on Pokemon that are supposed to be able to check CAP 22, which is why I mentioned not giving Hidden Power to CAP 22 in the first place.

EDIT: I noticed discussion on Sludge Wave, and I just want to throw out calcs on Sludge Wave against Clefable (the target) according to 1760 stats's two most common Clefable spreads, for reference:

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 190-226 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Clefable: 200-237 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[snake]

The first part of calcs are made with that pokemon because CAP22 must be checked with priority moves.
Also: CAP22 must threaten Steel types. With a Fire move, it's more easy since that pokémon cannot enter safely.

Thanks for reminding me Poison types: since Poison types are supposed to counter CAP22, I'm against a Ground move, because, with that, they cannot even check him (only Scarf Mollux/Plasmanta/Crucibelle are faster)

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Mollux: 452-536 (118 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Plasmanta: 478-567 (147.5 - 175%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Crucibelle: 385-458 (108.7 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm glad to see we have come to a consensus that Earth Power would be a disastrous option.

However, regarding Fire-type coverage, you have failed to recognize a) that CAP22 is supposed to target only Steel-types weak to Fighting-type moves (i.e. Ferrothorn, Heatran, etc.) and b) that CAP22 is supposed to be threatened by priority users, prominent examples being Mega Metagross, Cawmodore, Mega Scizor, and Talonflame. Yes, Mega Metagross, Cawmodore, and Mega Scizor are Steel-types; however, they are not weak to Fighting-type moves. Jirachi and Kitsunoh are also Steel-types that are also not weak to Fighting-type moves. Our threatlist shows that we are not to threaten all Steel-types as you seem to claim; therefore, Fire-type coverage is more detrimental than helpful in regards to our threatlist. In addition, even though Mega Metagross, Cawmodore, and Mega Scizor hit with STAB Priority Bullet Punch, letting them be OHKOed on the switch-in is a terrible idea, that reduces them from semi-reliable switch-ins (due to how hard Focus Blast hits) to extremely soft checks, only able to threaten CAP22 if they switch into a move that is not Flame Burst.

Again, our Fire-type coverage should be limited solely to Hidden Power Fire. I see no good reason to allow any other Fire-type coverage more powerful than that.

 

[Alfalfa]

I'm glad to see we have come to a consensus that Earth Power would be a disastrous option.

However, regarding Fire-type coverage, you have failed to recognize a) that CAP22 is supposed to target only Steel-types weak to Fighting-type moves (i.e. Ferrothorn, Heatran, etc.) and b) that CAP22 is supposed to be threatened by priority users, prominent examples being Mega Metagross, Cawmodore, Mega Scizor, and Talonflame. Yes, Mega Metagross, Cawmodore, and Mega Scizor are Steel-types; however, they are not weak to Fighting-type moves. Jirachi and Kitsunoh are also Steel-types that are also not weak to Fighting-type moves. Our threatlist shows that we are not to threaten all Steel-types as you seem to claim; therefore, Fire-type coverage is more detrimental than helpful in regards to our threatlist. In addition, even though Mega Metagross, Cawmodore, and Mega Scizor hit with STAB Priority Bullet Punch, letting them be OHKOed on the switch-in is a terrible idea, that reduces them from semi-reliable switch-ins (due to how hard Focus Blast hits) to extremely soft checks, only able to threaten CAP22 if they switch into a move that is not Flame Burst.

Again, our Fire-type coverage should be limited solely to Hidden Power Fire. I see no good reason to allow any other Fire-type coverage more powerful than that.

Mega Gross is 2HKOd by Aura Sphere after Stealth Rock anyways, and Cawmodore OHKOd a majority of the time after Stealth Rock; the only way you are keeping Cawmodore from being OHKOd is if you forgo Aura Sphere, which literally nobody will agree with you on:

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 144-172 (47.8 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 199-234 (82.2 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[snake]

Mega Gross is 2HKOd by Aura Sphere after Stealth Rock anyways, and Cawmodore OHKOd a majority of the time after Stealth Rock; the only way you are keeping Cawmodore from being OHKOd is if you forgo Aura Sphere, which literally nobody will agree with you on:

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 144-172 (47.8 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore: 199-234 (82.2 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I wasn't arguing against Fighting-type moves. I was arguing against Fire-type coverage that is unnecessary on CAP22. My point is that CAP22 already threatens those Steel-types as it is with those moves, so Flame Burst is unneeded.

 

[Alfalfa]

I wasn't arguing against Fighting-type moves. I was arguing against Fire-type coverage that is unnecessary on CAP22. My point is that CAP22 already threatens those Steel-types as it is with those moves, so Flame Burst is unneeded.

Flame Burst was primarily aimed at Skarmory and Ferrothorn by hitting them harder than Aura Sphere, not Mega Gross and Cawmodore. If you are worried about Flame Burst against other targets I already explained such.