Yeah, I feel the same way as Doug on this.
Regarding the balance of Dragon Dance on this Pokemon...for this example, let's go with the suggestion Dane and I both made of making Wood Hammer/DD egg moves, so that Wood Hammer is illegal with Dragon Dance. This only really affects Gyarados as a counter, but that's still fairly significant. Now, what counters Woodman with DD? (I'll just assume 252 atk/spe, adamant, LO for all calculations)
Gyarados:
Woodman does 32.29% - 38.02% (25.00% - 29.43% with lefties) damage with Seed Bomb after one Dragon Dance, including Intimidate. If it Seed Bombs on the switch, 21.88% - 25.52% (16.67% - 19.79% if Woodman is carrying lefties). This same BulkyGyara does 49.61% - 58.27% back with Stone Edge. Woodman is just barely 3HKOing AFTER a Dragon Dance with LO, and Gyarados is 2HKOing pretty solidly. Without LO, Woodman's damage is pretty pititful. Clearly, Gyara counters DDWoodman very effectively.
Salamence:
Woodman does 23.35% - 27.41% with Return to Aldaron's Fatmence (252 HP / 220 Def, Bold/Impish) after a DD, again including Intimidate. Given that Fatmence always carries a recovery move, there's virtually no way that Woodman can pose a significant threat. Meanwhile, 0 atk/sp atk Salamence is dealing 47.51% - 55.91% with Stone Edge, 43.31% - 50.92% with Aerial Ace, and 30.45% - 35.70% with Dragon Pulse.
Heatran:
Woodman's return does 23.46% - 27.78% to 0/4 Heatran after one DD. Clearly, DD Woodman isn't touching Heatran anytime soon. Heatran does only 35.17% - 41.21% damage back with Flamethrower (0 sp atk), but it hardly matters because Woodman is dealing pitiful damage and/or damaging itself with recoil (not to mention 0 sp atk Heatran would only be seen on defensive sets, which are at even less risk). In a more realistic 0/4 Heatran situation, Specstran will 2HKO with Flamethrower, as will Scarf Heatran with Fire Blast.
Moltres:
Woodman does 34.64% - 40.78% with Return against Sarenji's defensive Moltres (248 hp/148 def, Bold) after one DD, while Moltres does 33.86% - 39.90% back with Flamethrower or 53.28% - 62.73% with Air Slash. It's only a true counter if it carries Air Slash, but otherwise it's still capable of dealing a fair amount of damage to Woodman.
Togekiss:
Woodman does 78.34% - 91.98% with Flare Blitz against 252 HP Togekiss after a DD. Clearly, Togekiss isn't going to be an effective counter to this, but it can switch in, take one attack, and then deal a lot of damage with Air Slash.
Again, remember that ALL of these calcs are done with 252 attack, Adamant, 1 DD, and LO, unless stated otherwise. If there are at least 3 hard, top-level OU counters (none of which are beaten by the same Hidden Power) and plenty of other checks, I think it's safe to say that DD won't be overpowered on Woodman.
TBH I actually was planning on placing a new move onto this creature during the movepool poll, but after seeing Choloray's attack description I decided against it.I really don't want to create any new moves. This pokemon has plenty going for it, it does not need a signature move. I've seen several references to a new special grass move for this guy. I don't know if GT is seriously considering it, but I think it's a bad idea.
Alrighty, so that's all the material that seem to need to be voted on?Main disagreements seem to be:
Physical movepool and boosters
Bulk Up
Curse
Swords Dance
Dragon Dance
- Brick Break
- Rock Slide
Wood Hammer and/or Flare Blitz
Utility
Stun Spore
Reflect/Light Screen
Synthesis
Special Attacks
Zap Cannon
Charge Beam
Ancientpower
Leaf Storm
Aura Sphere has 3 things that make it worse than Brick Break:If Brick Break and Rock Slide are on the voting list, I'd like Aura Sphere to be there too. It might be a little stronger, but it doesn't break walls, and all three of the main problem Pokemon weak to fighting have better or equal Defense when compared to Special Defense anyway.
Plus, shooting an orb of pure inner energy seems like something it could do.
Que?I also have to say I don't mind Aura Sphere as a potential move for testing.
The only moves I am adamantly against are Ground / Rock / Physical Fighting moves higher than 75 BP.
I am also against Ice / Special Fighting moves, but I'm willing to test them out.
If these Pokemon are using more offensive spreads, their 3HKO's and questionable 2HKOs will turn into solid 2HKOs (though I don't think there's any real check that can 1HKO), but Woodman's attacks will be stronger. Defensive spreads are usually more potent if you're trying to survive something's attacks (and since you're not 1HKOing, defensive spreads are usually better), and it's not as though any of the spreads I mentioned are made specifically to counter Woodman, all of them were made for the original 493 metagame.So what you're saying is most of these pokemon need their most defensive spreads to counter DDWoodman,
I offered calculations for LO because most of the time, Woodman's not really doing enough damage to threaten these Pokemon significantly anyways.and you've assume this is going to use Life Orb rather than Leftovers and only DD Once.
Yeah, if you're somehow running Hidden Power Ice and Electric on the same set, it 2HKO's all its counters (sans Moltres). Either Salamence or Gyarados will counter it, and both of them are still surviving to deal damage back anyways (unless you hit them with HP on the switch, in which case they'll both be faster since you haven't DD'd and still get a free hit on you anyways). I also notice your set lacks a physical Grass move, which means that Gyara beats it much worse if it's without HP Elec and suddenly a whole lot more things enter the realm of potential counters or checks.In other words, it 2HKOs all of those pokemon except Moltres, and none of them 2HKO it. Only Moltres remains a solid counter, which it is supposed to be anyway.
Brick Break is the biggest deciding factor here, IMO. To be honest, I don't see why there's so much support for it - it's worthless against Blissey since Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer will always be stronger (150 bp vs 180, unless you're using it on a mixed set with Battle Armor in which case it'd require a ton of attack investment to actually do something), so the only real purpose of it seems to be nullifying one of its other counters, Heatran.Now I grant you I assumed this had Brick Break, but BB seems to have a decent amount of support. Either way nothing specifically says this can't be mixed, and all my calcs are without Life Orb. If you chose Lum Berry instead of Leftovers, you wouldn't be as durable, but Togekiss would simply end up wasting its time with Thunder Wave and be roundly slaughtered.
I'm just saying, if Brick Break and Rock Slide get on the vote list, Aura Sphere should too. The three main Pokemon that would be affected are Tyranitar, Heatran, and Blissey.
Heatran has equal defenses, and 180BP is worse against it than 280 (HP Ground).
Blissey's Special defense far outweighs her defense, so Aura Sphere would be weaker overall compared to Brick Break. Plus, Aura Sphere and Fire Blast hits her just as hard, so it's basically a null argument anyway as it's no more effective than Fire Blast. Plus, Fire Blast can burn which this can't. It's only upside is the accuracy.
Tyranitar is the only one it really affects. Even then, not so much. It would hit just as hard as Grass Knot. Grass Knot hits at 120 BP * STAB * weakness. That's 360 BP, same as Aura Sphere. Plus, after Sandstorm, his special defense is better than his defense anyway. Not sure how much that would affect it since it's not as monstrous a difference as Blissey's is, but still.
It's more you can do this all at once:But against every fire Pokemon (excluding the ground hybrid ones, but including Charizard and Moltres which you didn't include) and every Dragon except Garchomp and Flygon, HP Rock is better than any of them.
So if you could have 150BP HP Rock or 90BP Aura Sphere, which is the more likely choice to make his 4 slots?
Your opponent isn't going to mystically know what HP you're running until it is too late. A physical Grass move is pointless on the DD set since all of your hard counters for every Woodman set are neutral to or resist Grass. This set derives no competitive advantage from having a physical Grass move unless your opponent believes it wise to switch Tyranitar (KO'd by BB anyway), Swampert, or Hippowdon into this. The very threat that this could be packing a STAB Grass move almost sure to OHKO or 2HKO them is enough to ward them off.Fishin said:Yeah, if you're somehow running Hidden Power Ice and Electric on the same set, it 2HKO's all its counters (sans Moltres). Either Salamence or Gyarados will counter it, and both of them are still surviving to deal damage back anyways (unless you hit them with HP on the switch, in which case they'll both be faster since you haven't DD'd and still get a free hit on you anyways). I also notice your set lacks a physical Grass move, which means that Gyara beats it much worse if it's without HP Elec and suddenly a whole lot more things enter the realm of potential counters or checks.
Aura Sphere, exclusive? In the sense of someone's signature move or the fact that it's only been given to a small pool of pokemon?I must say I disagree with Aura Sphere. Its exclusiveness is simply too much for me. But if people vote it to be tested, then so be it.