CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 3 - Threat Discussion

[riekku]

I think that we should let it retain its ground weakness. If anything, that gives it more potential as a lure, which is definitely using it's bad typing to its advantage. That means no levitate though.

I'm absolutely against having this pokemon getting countered by water types or volt-turn. That can simply be remedied by giving it storm drain, water absorb, or dry skin. Having water types beat it 100% will throw the whole "using bad typing as advantage" thing down the drain.
(no pun intended.)

 

[GlassAbsol]

I think that there should definitely be a solid way of getting around water pokemon, especially those on rain teams. We're talking about beating the defensive water pokemon that we see on rain teams, but there are a lot of offensive rain abusers. Ludicolo is weak to one STAB and presumably unless we invest heavily in speed, we can't outspeed it in rain, so it's a potential offensive check. Also Reuniclus and Alakazam can beat our stab, and bulky Reuniclus won't have much of a problem taking a hit or two and can comfortably counter with a STAB Psychic/Psyshock. Are we worried about Psychic overall as a type considering the poor defensive coverage that Psychic has, and a reasonable amount of pokemon can counter?

Just my thoughts.

I definitely think that Heatran is a solid counter (next cap can we make a pokemon that mauls heatran on typing) and I agree that it's a good thing that Heatran can counter CAP3.

 

[fourkings8414]

I really think that the way to appropriately use the strengths of this typing is to somehow craft a Fire-type that can take on Water-types. Not only is this an unfilled niche right now (which is really practical), but it also helps a lot more than you might expect. Bulky Water-types are defined by strong neutral Water-type STAB, support Ice Beam for Dragons, and then Toxic. We already handle Ice coverage by resisting it, and we're immune to Toxic by typing! That means that if we continue this trend and plan on dealing with the Water-types, we can give this Pokemon a seriously typing-dependent niche that will be invaluable to the OU metagame. There is no better solution, if you ask me.

Dusk's proposal is extremely welcomed, in my opinion. This not only allows it to fill a special niche, but blocks many popular special attacking types. Resistance to ice, grass, fire, and a way to fight back against water types handily would enable it to become a sort of special sponge. Poll jumping here, but an immunity to water via Water Absorb or Storm Drain would be a huge plus against rain teams and giving this mon greater specially defensive capabilities. Speaking of rain teams, if we're talking of countering water-types somehow, rain is coming into the discussion no matter what not to mention it as a way to weaken fire attacks for other types. Of course we may choose to give it moves that fight back against water types rather than giving it immunity.

With this said, resistances give it innate bulk so giving it a role of a physically defensive tank to hold its own against physical attackers with resistances that hold off popular special attacking types would be interesting, though having CAP 3 become a special wall would optimize aforementioned resistances. It would also let it better handle electric attacks which are prevalent on water-types with the esteemed BoltBeam combo. Even Starmie would have trouble handling CAP 3 since many variants do not carry psychic moves.

Might I also add that the water types mentioned have low Def. We can capitalize on this by using the unorthodox physical poison and fire moves, which are often viewed as special attacking types. (I guess flare blitz is quite the exception.)

There is another route we could take: to completely ignore the water types and focus on the rock/ground and fighting types. If we make CAP 3 have an offensive presence, other pokemon may be afraid to come in. Further amplifying its presence are the type of moves it'll probably receive. We can have the moves provide supportive effects in case CAP cannot handle certain pokes so while they switch in, they may be statused. Though they may resist the STAB options, rock pokemon are not as common as ground who are hit neutrally by fire. The only two common rock pokemon are Ttar and Terrakion, both of which would not enjoy being burned by switching in to take the hit. I feel that this approach would rely two heavily on fire rather than both typings.

For Heatran and D-nite, I think they are worth reviewing a bit. They are part of the top 6 OU pokemon so I think being able to handle a number of them would be a huge plus. If we handle water, Politoed and Rotom-W (a bit) are cleared, Scizor is out without coverage moves to handle CAP 3 efficiently while having 4x weak to fire, and Ttar not wanting to be burned (is that good enough?). 4/6, this leaves only Heatran and D-nite who can be handled, more so for the former. Might I mention that Mold Breaker would allow CAP 3 to potentially use fire moves on Heatran, hit for regular damage against D-nite, and use a coverage ground type move against Rotom-W.

I can't help but keep brainstorming of the perfect coverage move for this CAP or said abilities attached to it. Truthfully, it's as Mars hinted and Asylum explicitly said. I think we should be able to mention such ideas while mainly focusing on the discussion. I understand that by doing the threat discussion before deciding on an ability, we can truly see what kind of ability we want for CAP 3.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I agree that we should not allow this CAP to be threatened by Water-types - that's actually one of the reasons I supported a Fire / Electric type in the first place. A Fire-type that is not threatened by Water STAB or has the power and coverage to kill bulky waters before they can kill it sounds like a fantastic idea, as it would certainly be an example of something that leverages its typing to occupy a niche.

I'd like to go a step further, though: I think this CAP should check most Fighting-types. One of the most useful resistances Poison has is a resistance to Fighting, and while our Fire typing opens us up to Stone Edge, this can be alleviated somewhat through certain stat spreads (emphasizing speed or physical defensiveness). That said, I do think Terrakion should beat this CAP.

Speaking of Terrakion, we should lose badly to most Rock-types and be checked by most Ground-types. I say "checked" because no Ground-type in the tier will enjoy switching into Overheat or a similarly powerful special fire move.

 

[Pallas Athena]

Among the strengths of the typing is its immunity to burn and poison. This obviously makes it very effective at combatting defensive teams, and I would be unwilling to see too many bulky Pokemon among its checks and counters. Below is a list of Pokemon I believe CaP3 specifically should and should not be checked by.

Dugtrio should be a check:

While I wouldn't call it a counter, as it will have difficulty coming in on any fire move of moderate power, CaP3 shouldn't have anything more advanced than substitute and the shed shell item to combat it. This means that CaP3 will be reluctant to take up an offensive role, but keep it more in line with the strengths of the typing: abusing key resistances. If CaP3 is offensive, Dugtrio would prevent it from being overpowering, and require that its team remove it before it tries to sweep or revenge kill.

Tyranitar and Politoed should be checks:

I did not say counters. If CaP3 was hard countered by one or both of the Top 6 OU weather starters, it would be significantly harder for it to operate due to its Stealth Rock weakness. I think that CaP3 should have some way of making them wary or forced to adapt to it (Burn, Poison, Coverage, Sunny Day), but ultimately be forced to switch if one of them gets in. This prevents it from being nearly unviable when its stealth rock weakness is considered, but allows it to be defeated by top OU playstyles with proper prediction or preparation.

Offensive Water, Rock, and Ground types should be checks or counters:

I'm looking at Starmie, Terrakion, Landorous, and to a lesser extent Gliscor here. The fact is, this typing does not lend itself to taking on the offensive playstyles in OU at all, and its strength lies in crippling the more defensive Pokemon on the opposing team to allow sweepers to set up. For instance, this typing allows it to destroy steels, absorb toxic spikes, and wall a few major OU threats with its typing. The weaknesses of it to offense are hard to redeem, and will probably end in creating a CaP that focuses on removing the weaknesses of a type instead of proving why it is good. While giving it an ability to deal with offensive waters would be cool, but ultimately it results in a Pokemon that is meant to patch up the weaknesses of Fire/Poison, instead of playing to the inherent strenghts of the typing. Therefore, I would have no problem with offensive weather sweepers, such as the ones outlined above, having a field day with CaP3.

Tentacruel, Jellicent, and Gliscor should not be counters.

This is where I will disagree with a lot of people. CaP3's typing is primarily meant to act as a defensive pivot, and give it a number of opportunities to switch in on steel-types, or Pokemon attempting to spread status. Given that the typing is so weak to many offensive threats, it almost needs to be able to break down the walls that would stop it, as it will be incredibly easy to revenge kill given the prevalence of Earthquake, Stone Edge, and water moves in the OU metagame. These three Pokemon not acting as checks would allow CaP3 to work as an excellent wallbreaker and/or stallbreaker- the natural strengths of its typing.

In a similar vein, defensive Heatran without Earth Power should be a basic stalemate, and Heatran with EP are probably an offensive Pokemon, and not worth checking. The same situation arises with CaP3 and Hidden Power Ground/some weak ground move designed to deal with Heatran and CaP3 while wasting a valuable moveslot.

There are a few other points, but most of them have been repeated. Alakazam should be a good revenge killer for this, which is basically inevitable. The same goes for Reuniclus, but it will probably be more of a counter. Conkeldurr is notable for not caring about the risk of status from burn or poison (either the status moves or its STAB move's effect chances) and be able to hit back with Stone Edge. Most fighting types will give this trouble, bar Virizion, Breloom, and Toxicroak.

tl;dr saying that "This should be able to cover for a water weakness" is trying to fix the type, and not show how it can be good, and there are other ways to play to the typing's strengths.

 

[Quilph]

I'd like to point out that, in line with the concept, this typing really allows the Poison type to come into its own. For once, using poison moves is actually encouraged through the typing. Ordinarily, Steel's immunity to Poison deters use of the latter, but since this is also part Fire, few if any steels bar Heatran can make a safe switch-in. It's been noted that waters should not be a hard stop to this CAP, and I agree entirely. This is a chance for Poison to fill the void, and for the Fire/Poison typing, as a unit, to become a strength if it can somehow deal with Water-types, perhaps muscling past them with a powerful Gunk Shot or something. Instead of immediately thinking of non-STAB moves for coverage, we need look no further than what we have already. Again, the concept aims to make the "bad" typing the CAP's selling point, so we need to shift the perception of Poison as being only useful defensively and start looking at it as an offensive presence which has just as much utility as the Fire STABs will.

In short, to handle Water types, let's utilize Poison attacks.

 

[Uberksetchy]

I think that making sure this thing can survive when facing a sand or rain team, and more importantly NOT MAKING IT RELIANT ON SUN will be a huge factor.

In addition to that, just on type alone it completely shuts Scizor down. That's pretty cool in and of itself.

Let's also not forget about its immunity to burn and poison. If we give it some way to deal with sand, that means it'll be nearly impossible to kill this thing with chip damage. That buys you turns, and turns win matches.

 

[erisia]

I'd like to point out that, in line with the concept, this typing really allows the Poison type to come into its own. For once, using poison moves is actually encouraged through the typing. Ordinarily, Steel's immunity to Poison deters use of the latter, but since this is also part Fire, few if any steels bar Heatran can make a safe switch-in. It's been noted that waters should not be a hard stop to this CAP, and I agree entirely. This is a chance for Poison to fill the void, and for the Fire/Poison typing, as a unit, to become a strength if it can somehow deal with Water-types, perhaps muscling past them with a powerful Gunk Shot or something. Instead of immediately thinking of non-STAB moves for coverage, we need look no further than what we have already. Again, the concept aims to make the "bad" typing the CAP's selling point, so we need to shift the perception of Poison as being only useful defensively and start looking at it as an offensive presence which has just as much utility as the Fire STABs will.

In short, to handle Water types, let's utilize Poison attacks.

Agreed. A powerful Gunk Shot, or Acid Spray + a neutral coverage move, should both be able to get past pretty much any Water type other than Gastrodon and Tentacruel, and they can be played around with other Pokemon fairly easily.

That said, I do want this thing to get Power Whip for lols.

 

[Skore]

Let's also not forget about its immunity to burn and poison.

Indeed lets not overlook this. The 3 most common status are Burn Poison and Paralsysis. There are abilities that allow you to ignore paralysis. This could be a potential niche as an Offensive status absorber that doesn't slowly die to staus effects like Guts abUsers.

 

[No Luck Involved]

@Rediamond: You make very good points and I agree with them. This makes me change my mind about how effectively CAP3 should handle defensive Water types. CAP3's typing naturally lends itself to be a stall breaker.

However this makes me fear whether CAP3 will be yet another huge blow to stall, but if we made it a (specially) defensive Pokemon, maybe even a wall, then stall could potentially gain an excellent new member that is an excellent answer to Steel types. It would then both be a great answer to stall for balanced teams as well as a great new Pokemon for stall teams themselves. Hyper offense is relatively unaffected because they can plow through CAP3 with physical Ground and Rock moves which are abundant anyway and they have enough to worry about in Skarmory, Gliscor, Blissey etc.

@Quilph: Yup I agree. There aren't very many Fire type or Poison type Pokemon in OU, but the two types together have a real potential to create something much greater than the sum of its parts. Making something stand up and be proud of its strengths despite its bad or lesser used type, this is what makes this project so interesting for me!

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Oh look I'm late again

Just like to say that that was an excellent post by Dusk, and that I more or less entirely agree with it in its entirety. I really want this CAP to have a valid and sustainable niche, and being able to more or less pick apart (or even be used on) rain teams is a particularly significant one. So yeah, my views in that regard have been more or less covered by those in that camp.

However, I want to make this perfectly clear: The ability to "wall" Scizor is neither a valid nor a sustainable niche. I can think of plenty of Pokemon in OU that wall Scizor, and yet it is still the #1 most used Pokemon. Scizor is a master of the switching game - counters and checks do not matter when it's escaping from them while battering them with a 70 BP STAB move off 130 base Attack - and, since Heatran is taking a good 15% from U-turn, our CAP may well find itself short on HP rather quickly, with its weakness to entry hazards taken into account. Similarly, this goes for pretty much all Steel-types, for what it's worth. Of course, Heatran has Earth Power, Metagross has Earthquake, Jirachi has Psychic, Magnezone has Thunderbolt and Lucario has Extremespeed - it is not feasible to suggest that on typing alone, this Pokemon is even close to a dedicated Steel killer. Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Forretress it can outmatch offensively, perhaps, but if it can't get rid of the entry hazards they set up it's a redundant point anyway. And there are better Pokemon to take care of these problems. The ability to take on and benefit from rain teams offensively is a niche that few non-Water or Hurricane Pokemon can claim. Toxicroak comes to mind as one of them, and is a pretty good example of how an overall poor Pokemon with an equally poor stat spread and movepool can be OU with the right niche, rather than just being generically powerful.

I'm also disliking this opposition to making it able to take on Water-types as being "the easy way out" or "trying to fix the Fire-type". I would ask whether, if we are not trying to fix something, what we actually are doing here, and whether Fire/Poison is actually bad enough to warrant some kind of boost in the first place. I'm currently operating under the assumption that, yes, Fire/Poison is fairly bad, and that it has some sort of debilitating weakness that would ordinarily prevent it from being a good type that we are trying to fix. I don't actually believe that such a problem exists (since I am rather unable to find one, given its rather impressive set of resistances and offensive presence). In fact, at the moment I am rather confused. Are we suggesting that this CAP would be capable of taking on Water-types with nothing more than a Poison-type STAB? Because if so, I will assume that we aren't giving it Thunderbolt or Giga Drain, and if such is the case... what exactly are we giving it? (rhetorical question, not actually considering this at this point). I truly believe that this Pokemon's only real difficulty in making it work is that it is decidedly moderate - it has no real stand-out qualities, or any of the kind that most "higher" typings have, and as such I feel that it is in our best interests to put it in a role that does not currently exist. Few existing Pokemon can take on all of Fire, Water, and Grass Pokemon at the same time, and if all goes well, this CAP would be a proper metagame player. As you can imagine, then, I see the typing as more of the facilitator towards the eventual goal than the bedrock of the typing - I was under the impression that it was for the very reason that the typing could not stand on its own two feet that it was chosen.

As a final note, I don't see why we should decide that this should be a pivot or sweeper or stallbreaker just like that, when there are infinitely many ways this concept could go. The typing has many inherent strengths - making it a bulky attacker does not immediately give it the best use of the typing's strengths, and furthermore, using only the typing's strengths and absolutely nothing else seems to me like a bit of a pointless waste of time to be honest. If we've come all this way just to make another typing-based attacker, I have to question whether there was anything wrong with the original typing in the first place.

 

[Pallas Athena]

The main reason for my assertations is simply that Fire/Poison is not so much of a "bad typing" as it is a potentially good typing that happens to be outclassed by two Pokemon with its subtypings.

In terms of Fire types, Heatran is incredibly similar and shares most of the same resistances as CaP3. Indeed, one of the only ways they are seperated by type is that CaP3 has the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes, while Heatran can not. In terms of poison typing, Tentacruel is a better bulky poison, and has a much better subtype when it comes to walling and support. Therefore, what exactly CaP3 can do that Water/Poison and Fire/Steel can not. The most notable is that it has a combination of Heatran's ability to destroy steels, and Tentacruel's ability to absorb Toxic Spikes. If it has such useful means of destroying stall given proper team support, why does it need to take on offense?

I'm not proposing that water types be able to walk over this. In fact, making CaP3 sufficiently defensive almost ensures that bulky water types will not want to switch in, out of fear of being statused and at the risk of giving it free turns due to the fairly weak power of most of their uninvested moves, or some other method that could be thought up at movepool such as Sunny Day access. The point is, there is more than one way to let CaP3 handle bulky waters while playing to the typing's strengths and not going out of way to "beat water types."

Since it is recognized by most of the users who have posted here that CaP3 should not be able to handle sand offense (EQ/Rock moves), wouldn't it only make sense to extend this to an inability to deal with offensive titans, while still being able to break down walls and do what it's typing lets it do? Otherwise, you run the risk of one Pokemon turning a metagame into a dominance of one playstyle if it can deal well with most other playstyles in OU (Volturn, stall, rain). There is much that can be explored with Fire/Poison, and simplifying it to "all water types" is a bit simplistic. If you read my post, you would know that I believe that some water types should be able to deal with it, and the vast majority should not. I simply want people to consider what "dealing with water types" and rain in general really means when only one major playstyle (sand offense) would remain to hard counter CaP3.

 

[Banryu]

NEW IDEA

We should look at this CAP in a different way than we do other CAPs. If you read the description again, the CAP is supposed to "take that "terrible typing", and find ways to fix it (usually via ability, movepool, or stats) to the point where the formerly terrible typing becomes the CAP's strong point". This should open up for some interesting conversation, since we are supposed to be learning from this CAP. I propose that we switch around the typings. (Have the fire typing be the defensive pivot and the poison typing be the offensive pivot). We can do this in a variety of ways. One way is to give it only very weak (or risky), but useful Fire STABs like Magma Storm, Flame Charge, or even just ember. But we could give it the stats so that the types that the pokemon Fire resists (scizor, heatran, etc.) are taken out by this CAP. Alternatively, we can give CAP 3 the strongest poison type moves and give it the support moves to back up the usual counters.

This may seem difficult, but I believe we can get really far with this. It would be great to see fire/poison type take out heatran, tenta, jellicent but not be able to take out ferrothorn or other mons that it should easily be able to take out. THis is just a thought that came to me, but it could turn out to be the most unique and individual mon we come up with and the mon we learn the most from.

Ardy's first quote

I have yet to read through this whole thread, but I quoted these two together because I feel like their ideas sort of mesh. I really like imagining the image of an offensive Poison-type or a defensive Fire-type, it's unusual and unprecedented and I think it could work. I also like what Project Mars and RD have to say about checks and counters for CAP3 and to it.

From what they've said, I'm imagining a mon where either of its offensive stats are usable, yet 1) are too mediocre for it to go mixed, and 2) have very different type coverage between its physical and special movepools.

I may be getting ahead of myself, but for say for instance...
Applicable Special offensive movepool: Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Psychic

Applicable Physical offensive movepool: Gunk Shot, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Crunch/Night Slash, Flame Charge

I understand that the point of this thread is not to construct or suggest movepools for CAP3 yet, but I'm doing so to look at how it might deal with threats (which IS the point of this thread), so bear with me.

Special CAP3 as demonstrated here could beat the aforementioned Steels (bar Heatran) as well as Gliscor, Tyranitar, and Tentacruel, though it would be unable to do anything against Heatran, and might struggle with less heavy or neutral waters like Jellicent and Vaporeon. Landorus and Terrakion could potentially be caught on the switch with SE Ice Beam or Psychic (respectively), though they would still be checks if safely switched in. Physical CAP3 has no physical Fire STAB outside of Flame Charge (which it may or may not be using at all depending on whether it's a tank or not), and thus struggles more to beat the steels bar Heatran this time (because Earthquake, though nothing much to hit Balloon Heatran who can threaten it with Earth Power).

This is purely speculatory, of course, and I may be getting a tad off-track. I suppose the question is, does it fit the concept for CAP-3 to be able to check different groups of its counters depending on its offensive orientation? I'm not sure.

 

[theBEEZ KNEEZ]

I agree with Rising_Dusk about the point of countering bulky waters, but I think we should think up some way to do this without just tacking on Storm Drain or Dry Skin and calling it a day. Nothing comes to mind at the moment.

As for threats, I thing mostly everything has been layed out.

I also think Fat nihilist had a fantastic idea of somehow making fire a useful support typing, and poison the offensive typing.

 

[SunnyE]

Maybe instead of giving CAP3 an immunity-giving ability to handle water types (which I'm seeing a near-unanimous agreement on that CAP3 should handle them) we could find other ways, such as giving him powerful coverage moves such as Power Whip or Thunderbolt. Or maybe an ability like Tinted lens to make the already strong STAB moves CAP3 potentially has (such as Fire Blast or Gunk Shot) that allows CAP3 to hit said bulky waters (including Jellicent and Tentacruel)... There are many ways that CAP3 can take on bulky water types without the need for immunity against water. (and immunity against water doesn't solve the Gastrodon problem either.)

 

[Mono789]

I'm going to go ahead and agree that Rising Dusk's idea for CAP3 to be threatening to water types is a good idea. The metagame is really dominated by the weather inducers, especially rain and sand. Being weak to the main threats in both weather teams would greatly hinder this Pokemon's chances. Give it a good chance against water types, despite being weak to their STAB, would go a long way in making CAP3 usable and giving it an interesting niche.

 

[Deck Knight]

I should check in on this.

On using Fire/Poison with some ability/move/whatever to help it handle Water types:

This actually is something unique that Fire/Poison can do because of how Bulky Water types operate. In addition to Burn and Toxic immunities, a fair number of Fire moves (as well as Scald) also remove freeze on the target when used. Fire/Poison is also well situated to handle any Ferrothorn without Bulldoze (most of them). In such a case while it's true the ability is an assist on a weakness, the remainder of the typing is very solid against the coverage moves of several combinant types, while still being critically weak to, say, Gastrodon and Earth Power.

As far as which Water types should be counters, the most obvious example would be Water/Ground, which still resists both STABs and has an SE 4x effective option. It's true this could be alleviated with Hidden Power Grass, but Fire/Grass/Poison coverage is only so-so. Tentacruel would invariably end up countered by CAP 3 unless it chooses to run HP Ground, an unlikely event. The most likely event is a stalemate, where the Toxic Spikes are absorbed and neither can do much to the other.

On Rock and Ground types being counters:

This is reasonable as far as it goes. Gliscor isn't going to want to switch in to a moderately powerful Fire Blast for example, but if it has Toxic Orb it might be able to avoid Burn on the way in. Our typing still has a way to fight back with Will-O-Wisp or Lava Plume potentially as high burn rate moves. Tyranitar is probably the biggest menace here, but I'm not really opposed to special Fighting coverage because of Sand Stream.

On Fighting types being counters:

This really only applies to Terrakion, Infernape, and things with Guts, like Conkeldurr. Any burned Fighting type, even those with Stone Edge, should have difficulty with CAP 3 unless they switch over to Earthquake (which all of them tend to have anyway). If CAP 3 can successfully get them to shift because of this, I think it would be a decent indicator of success. I'm entirely supportive of a CAP3 with decent physical defense as well as burn, after all, one of the key advantages of Poison typing is the resistance to fighting.

Heatran, Dragonite, CAP 3etc.

In considering the coverage options here, I think Dragonite should be a stronger check than Heatran. Heatran with Earth Power should do well against CAP 3, but I'm not opposed to Fighting coverage in order to keep CAP 3 as a deterrent to itself. Dragonite still loathes Burn, and I think CAP 3 should have enough physical defense to get a chance to burn it after eating a +1 Outrage.

Psychic types in general will also be fairly effective.

So basically I want to whittle the threats list down to:

Threats:

Water-types
Tentacruel (stalemate)
Gastrodon

Rock- / Ground-types
Tyranitar
Terrakion
Landorus
Dugtrio
Gliscor

Other
Heatran
CAP 3 (stalemate)
Dragonite
Infernape
Conkeldurr
Latios
Latias
Alakazam
Reuniclus

Threatens:

Politoed
Jellicent
Ferrothorn
Non-STAB Physical attackers not carrying EQ.

 

[SunnyE]

I don't think threatening Jellicent but not Tentacruel is possible... o.o

 

[Quilph]

I don't quite follow how a Tentacruel vs. CAP3 match-up is a stalemate. True, they mutually resist each other's poison attacks and CAP3 can get rid of Toxic Spikes, but Tentacruel still has a type advantage and resists both of the other's STABs. I also don't see how CAP3 threatens Politoed or Jellicent. You've lost me there.

 

[capefeather]

I think we need to consider a few caveats with the threats list as it stands above. I'm not sure that we particularly need some of them to threaten CAP 3 so much.

• As far as Gastrodon goes, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch for CAP 3 to run Hidden Power Grass or even have a stronger Grass-type move to beat it. I suppose a defensive CAP 3 with just its STABs wouldn't be able to do too much with Gastrodon in the picture, though. I'm not really sure it really is (or should be) a threat, though at least CAP 3 wouldn't have a guaranteed switch-in unless it had Levitate.
• I agree with Rising_Dusk in that Dragonite shouldn't have a free switch-in on CAP 3. If it's in, sure, Earthquake, whatever. CAP 3 should have the means to make Dragonite think twice about it, though.
• I'm not exactly sure why Latios and Latias are listed. I mean, yeah, it's likely that they will threaten CAP 3, what with their special bulk and high offensive power. However, I'm not sure there's a particular reason to care about them. If we happen to make something that beats them, then that's what happens.
• Infernape, I suppose, depends on its set. Physical sets have Stone Edge, okay. Special sets have problems, though. In all, it seems redundant to highlight Infernape as a threat.
• Reuniclus is similar to Latias and Latios simply because its low Speed offsets its greater ability to eliminate CAP 3 off the bat. CM may have to resort to Psychic without getting a chance to use Calm Mind at all, while TR at least can pull its setup off still. All this again depends on CAP 3 having enough power to do so, and it may or may not have such power.
• Alakazam can probably only revenge kill or try for a Focus Sash switch-in.

I generally agree with what has been said by Rising_Dusk, reachzero, etc. on the threats.

 

[SunnyE]

I agree with capefeather, and would add that even though Levitate takes away CAP3's biggest weakness, an ability that helps against water moves would be more useful since EQ users can and usually do have Stone Edge as well, as for a Water immunity gives more free-turn chances... Also "it seems pointless to highlight Infernape as a threat." not redundant. Redundant means that something is needlessly REstated.

 

[Screw-On Head]

I think this CAP will need good coverage move options in order to be viable in the OU metagame. Because of the weaknesses of it's typing, it needs to be able to the possibility of hitting most switch-ins hard with a unresisted STAB or a super-effective attack. This isn't a typing that allows many switch ins, taking 25% from Stealth Rock and vulnerability to Spikes (unless it has Levitate). Not to mention, while it has some useful resists and status immunities, it still has a lot of weaknesses, including the ever so obvious 4x Ground weakness (again, barring Levitate). Once switched in, it needs to be able to hold it's ground, or at least make switching in painful for the enemy. Think of Tyranitar, which covers is questionable typing with the ability to hit every OU Pokemon for super-effective damage without even resorting to hidden power, backed up by 134 Attack and 95 Special attack. I'm not saying it needs to have the sheer offensive power of Tyranitar (or the incredible coverage), but it should be able to pull it's weight and make it's presence known without being constantly forced to switch out from two-thirds the Pokemon in OU. Coverage can also come in the form of status moves, a lot of Pokemon might resist it's STABs but still not like getting Burned/Toxic'd/whatever.

That said, I really like the idea of this being a Water type counter, especially bulky Waters like Tentacruel, Vaporeon and Jellicent, but not so much Water/Ground types (Gastrodon). HP Grass is always an option against Gastrodon and the likes, but it should maybe be it's only option. As far as other counters people have been proposing like Heatran and Tyranitar, I don't think they should be true counters, maybe checks, but they should consider switching in with caution. I also really like the idea of Psychic types being able to force this guy out once they are safely in.

Overall, I guess I'm saying it should be quite difficult to switch in to this Pokemon, but not too difficult to force it out with the right moves (Ground, Rock and Psychic attacks mostly).

 

[meddle]

I'd like to go a step further, though: I think this CAP should check most Fighting-types. One of the most useful resistances Poison has is a resistance to Fighting, and while our Fire typing opens us up to Stone Edge, this can be alleviated somewhat through certain stat spreads (emphasizing speed or physical defensiveness). That said, I do think Terrakion should beat this CAP.

I support the inclusion of allowing CAP3 to check both Water AND Fighting.

Which, tangentially, begs the question: Why might I be using CAP3 over Heatran or Volcarona on my team, the two most-used fire types (Ninetales excluded)? Or rather, how might we design the typing advantages of CAP3 to make it an appealing option over the other OU Fire-types? Giving CAP3 the ability to check both Water and Fighting could afford it a small niche over Heatran and Volcarona, depending on other team synergies and, of course, ignoring the utility and role of CAP3, which we have yet to decide.

 

[Deck Knight]

A possible reason Jellicent would be countered but Tentacruel would not is because Tentacruel has Rain Dish for healing, and it can re-set up hazards or spin them away, whereas Jellicent usually uses Will-O-Wisp (doesn't work) and Scald (which, if we're countering Tentacruel, also won't work). I suppose Jellicent could be carrying Shadow Ball, but even still the thought I have makes that a non-issue, I'm thinking about Fire/Poison/Grass coverage on that particular set, which Tentacruel can handle but Jellicent can't.

I listed Psychic types because CAP 3 is weak to Psychic, and considering the two most prominent ones can have Life Orb Magic Guard, chances are CAP 3 isn't surviving.

In any case my thoughts on coverage thus far are Fire/Poison/Fighting with a few Fire staples like Hidden Power and Solarbeam, and maybe something niche like Scald (which Emboar and Stunfisk get). Most of those have limited impact on the threat list since they have fairly low comparative Base Power. Neutral STAB Fire Blast is strong and quite accurate, and Sandstorm blunts a lot of special attacks. This also leaves Sludge Wave as the strongest attack against say a Starmie, especially in Rain.

 

[FinalEquin0x]

In response to what Deck said, I believe that instead of using Hidden Power Grass, we could propose a move like Seed Bomb or Energy Ball, this would help it hit all water types pretty hard, while on top of it opening the fourth slot for either HP Ice, if wanting to hit Gliscor, Dugtrio, or HP Fighting for TTar. Now while this may sound ridiculous I also believe that if CAP3's attack stats aren't driven up the wall we can simply hit them hard and making them think twice, that's my goal with CAP3, make it a thinking game for my opponent, guessing my hidden power, or potentially another move like Scald seeing as it hits them all soundly, example:



Threats:

Rock- / Ground-types
Tyranitar
Terrakion
Landorus
Dugtrio
Gliscor

Other
Tentacruel
Heatran
CAP 3 (stalemate)
Dragonite
Infernape
Conkeldurr
Latios
Latias
Alakazam
Reuniclus

Threatens:

Quagsire
Gastrodon
Politoed
Jellicent
Scizor
Ferrothorn
Non-STAB Physical attackers not carrying EQ.

More or less just eliminating some threats, the goal of this was to find a way to make him have less counters, my proposed changes seemingly do just that.