CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9 (Main Ability Discussion)

[X-Act]

Okay guys, imagine Cresselia had 95 base SpA, and had Solar Power and was Grass/Fire typed instead.

You're basically describing this new Pokemon here, except it has slightly less defenses.

Seriously guys, come on. Can't you see that Solar Power is broken?

Let me say this again since most people seem to have missed my post:

This Grass/Fire Pokemon has more physical defense than Forretress and as much special defense as Togekiss. It only has 3 weaknesses, one of which is Poison, which is barely used.

Read that, and read it again.

Then tell me if Solar Power would be okay on this. It would only be okay if you want this to be in the uber tier. :( Imagine such a bulky Pokemon 2HKOing BLISSEY with Fire Blast and Life Orb. Yeah, right.

I mean guys, I kind of expected you to be a bit more thoughtful than this.

The same reason makes it too good to make it summon Sun, no matter how many turns it would have. I mean, imagine Cresselia summoning Sun or Rain or whatever. Yeah right.

As I already calculated before, Intimidate would make it the most physically defensive Pokemon BAR NONE, making it being hit for 7% less damage than REGIROCK. That's why I'm not advocating it.

About Battle Armor, such a defensive Pokemon not being able to be hit for a Critical Hit is a bit too much, I think. :(

By the way, there's another ability that's exactly like Vital Spirit. It's called Insomnia.

Anyway I have to go for a lecture.

 

[Mekkah]

By the way, there's another ability that's exactly like Vital Spirit. It's called Insomnia.

Which suits this thing even less in my opinion.

About Battle Armor, such a defensive Pokemon not being able to be hit for a Critical Hit is a bit too much, I think. :(

I dunno, it matters about 6.25% of the time, and then less because it doesn't always gets attacked, and even less because it also gets KOed sometimes when already on low health. Maybe more if you aim Cross Chops and Stone Edges at it, but...I cannot see the big deal anymore.

Gengar and this have ZERO in common.

Deck Knight, the point is that moveslot syndrome does not take away the danger of having access to a bunch of moves. Just look at Gengar. People fear it because it has 10 viable moves or so, despite the fact that it only uses four per battle.

 

[Aki]

Super Luck is still totally being overshadowed by sniper...

Battle Armour is not broken. It comes close, but it is totally not broken if we can get away with Bulk Up revenankh which is almost non-counterable without wasting a teamslot. Besides, if you're relying on a critical hit for a counter, then it's not really a counter now, is it? :\\

Okay guys, imagine Cresselia had 95 base SpA, and had Solar Power and was Grass/Fire typed instead.

You're basically describing this new Pokemon here, except it has slightly less defenses.

...And cresselia gets charge beam, making it's special attack effectively base 121 after a boost with no evs. No special attack Cresselia +1 charge beam: 279 SpA. Wodman with no special attack evs: 226. If you pump SpA ev's, then not only do you miss out on that bulkiness, cresselia still comes out on top due to a decent recovery move. solution to this is just not give it charge beam. Growth is ok, because it does no damage and it limits your support/sweeping movepool.

Seriously guys, come on. Can't you see that Solar Power is broken?

Let me say this again since most people seem to have missed my post:

This Grass/Fire Pokemon has more physical defense than Forretress and as much special defense as Togekiss. It only has 3 weaknesses, one of which is Poison, which is barely used.

Read that, and read it again.

Then tell me if Solar Power would be okay on this. It would only be okay if you want this to be in the uber tier. :( Imagine such a bulky Pokemon 2HKOing BLISSEY with Fire Blast and Life Orb. Yeah, right.

It's only bulkier then forry if they both have evs. Also, you can't really claim that it's bulkier then forry whilst you need to drain the EV's out of defences and into special attack, plus it's draining health each turn. LO just stacks on top of that and makes this thing cry.

I mean guys, I kind of expected you to be a bit more thoughtful than this.

The same reason makes it too good to make it summon Sun, no matter how many turns it would have. I mean, imagine Cresselia summoning Sun or Rain or whatever. Yeah right.

giving it any amount of auto sun is not cool for the same reasons as why drought is and should stay uber.

As I already calculated before, Intimidate would make it the most physically defensive Pokemon BAR NONE, making it being hit for 7% less damage than REGIROCK. That's why I'm not advocating it.

Has this even been discussed in detail? O_o and yes, it would be broken.

About Battle Armor, such a defensive Pokemon not being able to be hit for a Critical Hit is a bit too much, I think. :(

...and again, if you're relying on a crit to counter it, then it's not a counter. Good players and battles do not hope for hax for a win.

By the way, there's another ability that's exactly like Vital Spirit. It's called Insomnia.

Anyway I have to go for a lecture.

Basically, Solar Power's not broken because it drains hp, effectively killing the bulkiness, especially with LO, but Auto sun is because there is just too many beneficial effects obtained from the sun.

 

[devoninja]

Perhaps it would be better to say that this thing would be bulkier than a no defense Gyara or Garchomp. Plus it has no 4x weakness. That mean that if it were able to seriously sweep with Chlorophyll or Solar Power or Drought+ agility/calm mind it would be much harder to counter than Gyara or Garchomp. Because your "counter" would be very hard pressed to OHKO and likely be in danger of a OHKO. Even something that could come in against it would have to fear either a supereffective move or a hidden power. For example, Gyara or Garchomp could survive a switch into a fire or grass move (although with Solar Power not many times) and threaten to Stone Edge but they could not survive a 4x damage HP or even guarantee a OHKO with Stone Edge. That is why it is so important that this pokemon NOT get a powerful, reliable sweeping ability like Chlorophyll or Solar Power. Once set up it would be very tough to take down and would probably be designed to defeat potential counters.

 

[X-Act]

No, it's bulkier than Forry if they both have 0 EVs. If you don't believe me, calculate their physical tankiness using my applet. If both Forretress and this Pokemon maximize their Def, this thing would still be better defensively. And remember Forretress' SpD is bad. This thing's SpD is very good.

With Solar Power, this thing would have 339 SpA even with 0 EVs in SpA. Cresselia, as you say, would only have 279 after one Charge Beam, whose effect works only 70% of the time. Sunny Day works 100% of the time. Not to mention that Sunny Day not only boosts the SpA, but its Fire moves as well, and Solarbeam gets STAB and doesn't need to recharge with a sunny weather. Add HP Rock to that and it can counter fellow Fire types and Salamence/Dragonite in a pinch. Yeah, I'm thinking Sunny Day/Solarbeam/Fire Blast/HP Rock with either Heat Rock or even Charcoal (Charcoal ensures you 2HKO Blissey with Fire Blast) or even Life Orb if you want to go kamikaze.

Well, all in all, do whatever you like. Just don't complain afterwards that I didn't warn you about this thing's threat. A bulky Pokemon such as this should never have an ability that improves its offense, unless you want it uber.

 

[Aki]

Right, then what i've used to work it out must be wrong then.

Charge beam does continue to rise SpA, to a maximum of +6. I was using +1 as an example, because you cannot obtain +6 SpA in one go.

This thing just can't be uber with a 95 base Special Attack and a base 70 Attack.

And solar power alone dosen't make it uber: while you're abusing solar power, it's chipping off your health, reducing your bulkiness. It's not something like pure power which just doubles it.

 

[Mekkah]

Charge Beam only works 61% of the time considering its accuracy, and...just is hardly comparable at all. And at the end of the day this thing has much better STAB and type coverage than Cresselia ever will have.

 

[X-Act]

What you're not realising is that Sunny Day would make Fire Blast automatically 225% more powerful if this thing has Solar Power. Cresselia would need at least 3 turns of Charge Beam (with all of them working, mind you) to surpass that.

What you're missing also is the fact that Cresselia has no 120-power moves to speak of (except Solarbeam, which is kinda ass on it). This thing would have Fire Blast and Solarbeam, both STABbed and powered up by Sunny Day (and Solar Power), and both are 120 power. And on top of that this thing has 95 SpA compared to Cresselia's 75.

Again, I repeat, decide what you like, but don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Wow...the last few posts almost sound like you're being forced into voting on that ability alone. Also...has anyone actually does tests to see if even having a insta-Sunny Day (not PermaSun) harmful to the metagame? All this theorymon talk about it make me think that none of you actually did hands-on testing.

 

[Aki]

@X-Act: I'm not backing solar power 100%, but i don't think it's overly broken, especially when you actually NEED the sun in play.

@G_T: It is, because it frees up that moveslot on a team needed for sunny day.

Still liking Battle Armour, Sniper, Rock Head and Super Luck.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Sniping with a bazooka/cannon? Unrealistic at best but hey, we can alway say it has the power to change the barrel of his guns to any shapes. Super Luck is much harder to say...it doesn't really have any critical hit moves to use effective.

 

[Aki]

Think Xbox live, Spartan lasering. It's not a Sniper Rifle, but you can't just pull it up in someone's face without being HS about 24 times, with a BR. As for super luck, we can always adapt to the situation by giving it a new move(s).

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Think Xbox live, Spartan lasering. It's not a Sniper Rifle, but you can't just pull it up in someone's face without being HS about 24 times, with a BR.

It took me a few seconds and some Halo footage to actually understand what you're talking about. I can somewhat see this thing "sniping" off people with it's cannons in the heat of battle. I can also see it on it's pre-evo form since they have smaller gun barrels.

As for super luck, we can always adapt to the situation by giving it a new move(s).

Mostly so since the only critical hit moves that aren't physical are Air Cutter, Aeroblast, Spacial Rend, and Razor Wind. They're a better selection of crit moves on the Physical side but the only a few make some sense on it one it can't learn because that would fuck up it's precious counters. You could alway use those crit move with Super Luck in some gimmicky Physical moveset.

 

[Luck]

This Grass/Fire Pokemon has more physical defense than Forretress and as much special defense as Togekiss. It only has 3 weaknesses, one of which is Poison, which is barely used.

.

The best way to support your point is to show people how much a fire blast in Sunny day does against counters.

Posion-Gengar,Tentacruel,Weezing
Flying-Togekiss,Dragonite
Rock-Cradily,T-Tar

Blissey,Cressila,Heatran

If people do not like Rock Head, we could call it Petrified, as in petrified wood.

Fossil wood that is hard as a rock.Perfect

I like Pressure as it have it's worth in battle.

Okay, list of abilities that will probably be on the ability poll

Rock Head
Battle Armor
Leaf Guard
GreenHouse
Solar Power
Chlorophyll - Been the main reason behind this pokemon until it became defensive.
Heatproof (?)

I'll edit this when I find more abilities with a lot of support behind them.

Change the name of Rock Head to Petrified or Petrified Wood.Sniper was mention in good bit in posts in this thread.

 

[X-Act]

Well it's not like this thing doesn't have the defenses to set up Sunny Day...

I'm just sure that something so bulky (and so few weaknesses) doesn't need to have its offense improved as well. And so I won't vote for abilities that help its offense, and am trying to convince others to do the same... :)

Let's put it this way, if this thing ends up having Solar Power, I'd sign up on the CAP server just to thrash everybody with it! *evil grin*

EDIT: Okay, maybe I'm not seeing everything. I'll actually VOTE for Solar Power just because I'd like to annoy people with a Pokemon that takes hits like a champ and has a 120 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 (STAB, Solar Power, Sunny Day) power Fire Blast off 95 SpA.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Change the name of Rock Head to Petrified or Petrified Wood. Sniper was mention in good bit of post in this thread.

Okay...will add Sniper onto the list. Rock Head can also be called Tempered Wood since Petrified somewhat implies the wood has turned into stone.

 

[Deck Knight]

Deck Knight, the point is that moveslot syndrome does not take away the danger of having access to a bunch of moves. Just look at Gengar. People fear it because it has 10 viable moves or so, despite the fact that it only uses four per battle.

This will have about 6 viable moves. 2 STAB attacks, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Hidden Power, and Stun Spore (if even that). Its third offensive option is Hidden Power, which only situationally addresses its counters. Even if we go mad and load this up with stuff like Growth, Knock Off, Whirlwind, and Spikes, it still won't expand its threat base much (maybe WW...).

Gengar's problem isn't that it only has 4 moveslots. It's that you can really only be certain of one: Shadow Ball, and then it has dozens of other combinations that can be custom tailored to cover the backs of the rest of your entire team. Saying "Gengar" to this is stupid because EVERY pokemon only gets 4 moveslots. Gengar's power comes entirely from the fact that 3 of those moveslots could be nearly anything. In fact, so varied are those 3 slots that Gengar has no complete counter outside of Blissey (and even then you have Explosion). Destiny Bond Gengar screws up a lot of pokemon it normally wouldn't. Energy Ball is a quick answer to Swampert and Hippowdon, Thunderbolt takes out most waters. Focus Blast shows Tyranitar and Lucario the door, and scares off most Weavile from coming in. Explosion forces Blissey to only think about coming in when it is at high health.

So unless we're planning on giving this a Gengar-esque movepool, saying it only has 4 moveslots is assinine. EVERY pokemon has 4 moveslots. The power in movepool comes not from the fact you only have 4 slots to choose from on a pokemon, but how many different potential combinations you can choose and how those directly effect your ability to counter and be countered. Gengar would be a whole lot easier to counter if it lost Explosion and Destiny Bond, two of its least used viable options. Take out Focus Blast alone and Gengar loses nearly all bite against Tyranitar and Weavile, who can eat an HP Fite on the way in and then bid Gengar good day with Pursuit.

Its the same with Garchomp. A Garchomp stripped of Fire Fang/Fire Blast/Flamethrower would just be bait for Skarmory. Sure, you'd still have Stone Edge, Crunch, or Swords Dance to fill that Fire move slot, and Garchomp would still have 6 or 7 viable moves. It's just that by removing that one viable move (their function is basically the same: keep floaty steels from eating Garchomp's lunch), Garchomp becomes a much weaker pokemon. It will have 4 moveslots regardless.

Just like this. Unless we give this Earth Power, which has already been shot down (same pre-emptively with Ice Beam), Heatran will always counter this 100% of the time, even if it got Solar Power. Houndoom will counter this 100% of the time. So will Arcanine, Ninetales, Rapidash, Infernape, and Flareon. All of them can use any Sunlight boost this gets against it, and basically blast through its defenses. If fact, the existence of this would popularize more Fire pokemon. Rain Dance Kingdra will counter this 100% of the time, as will Rain Dance Ludicolo.

Also, Auto-Sun is broken unless its duration is the same as Tail Wind. There's just too much you can do in 3 offensive turns of sunlight, 4 if this switches in as a sacrifice.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Just like this. Unless we give this Earth Power, which has already been shot down (same pre-emptively with Ice Beam)

Neither one of those moves are eliminated from it's movepool as of yet. Earth Power can probably come back and land a decent spot in it's movepool since it doesn't hurt any of it's prime counters enough to warrant its removal. People say it cant have Physical Rock and Ground moves but that doesn't mean it can't have special version of them.

Ice Beam is probably taken up due to typing problems and preserving it's small counter list, but part of the balance package =/

 

[Grawl]

I'm actually very much against making new abilities. Rock Head was first mentioned, because it would fit him. Now we're changing the name, because it doesn't fit? I think it's a little pointless to create an ability that already excist, just to give it to one pokemon. It's not like we're going to create another wood armor pokemon to give it to.

The same with entirely new abilities. Take Greenhouse for an example. Does it really need it? No. It can function perfectly fine with existing abilities. So why creaty a new ability, when it's very likely to never be used again, while we don't really need to. I know a lot of new abilities were created with DP and some of them weren't needed either. But does that mean we should? Lets just try to work with what we got first and when a pokemon really needs a new ability (which I don't think this one does), then we could consider creating one.

 

[Darkflagrance]

I'm actually very much against making new abilities. Rock Head was first mentioned, because it would fit him. Now we're changing the name, because it doesn't fit? I think it's a little pointless to create an ability that already excist, just to give it to one pokemon. It's not like we're going to create another wood armor pokemon to give it to.

The same with entirely new abilities. Take Greenhouse for an example. Does it really need it? No. It can function perfectly fine with existing abilities. So why creaty a new ability, when it's very likely to never be used again, while we don't really need to. I know a lot of new abilities were created with DP and some of them weren't needed either. But does that mean we should? Lets just try to work with what we got first and when a pokemon really needs a new ability (which I don't think this one does), then we could consider creating one.

I feel what when we create new abilities like this we are resembling the noob CAP'ers who give their created pokemon random made-up dream abilities. The pokemon we have now will be OU even without giving it new abilities.
Also, none of the 'renamings for flavor' is necessary either, and in creating a pokemon I feel that it is better to be as conservative as possible; no new abilities, types, moves, etc. as may be avoided. Rock Head is figurative; Shelgon, Bagon etc. have Rock Head because their heads are as hard as rocks, not because they are actually made of rock. Therefore there is no reason to rename Rock Head to Tempered Wood for the new pokemon. We could even save the Tempered Wood ability for the future, when some new CAP might need an ability that fits the name better.

By the way, on the off chance that we are bold text voting,
ROCK HEAD
BATTLE ARMOR

 

[jagged_angel]

Ok, maybe Chlorophyll and Rock Head don't need to be renamed, but if some people are going to consider not voting for them just because the name of the ability doesnt fit the pokemon then that's gonna cause a bias in the voting.

To avoid bias for and against names of abilities the poll should be organised so that we are voting for the description of the ability not the name of it:

Recoil moves have no recoil. E.g. Rock Head, Tempered Wood
Prevents critical hits. E.g. Battle Armor
Prevents status effects in sun. E.g. Leaf Guard
Summons sun for 5 turns. E.g. GreenHouse
Loses HP in sun. Special Attack increases 50%. E.g. Solar Power
Speed doubles in sun. E.g. Bask, Chlorophyll
Critical Hits do 3x damage instead of 2x. E.g. Sniper

Possible Addition
Prevents Sleep. E.g. Insomnia, Vital Spirit

IMO Heatproof is a baaaad idea for our poke since Heatran and all other Fire pokes would lose viability as threats.

Also Solar Power Is overpowered, I've changed my mind due to X-Act's persuasion. Anything that can 2HKO a Blissey with a special move and only 1 turn of set up is very strong, the fact that this poke is gonna have great defences and few weaknesses means solar power would be a bit broken.

 

[Dane]

Neither one of those moves are eliminated from it's movepool as of yet. Earth Power can probably come back and land a decent spot in it's movepool since it doesn't hurt any of it's prime counters enough to warrant its removal. People say it cant have Physical Rock and Ground moves but that doesn't mean it can't have special version of them.

...Heatran and basically every non-Charizard, non-Moltres Fire Pokemon say "Hi".

 

[Lil Ant]

Infernape will not counter this thing. Infernape can probably get 2hko by a Scarf Fire Blast after a Stealth Rock switch in.

 

[Lil Ant]

...Heatran and basically every non-Charizard, non-Moltres Fire Pokemon say "Hi".

Moltres and Charizard are probably the best 100 percent counters. Just because they are 4x weak to Stealth Rock doesn't mean anything. They also have roost, incase you didn't no. Aerial Ace Salamence or Stone Edge Garchomp can serve as a great counter as well. Aerial Ace gets STAB from Salamence as well, also helps out vs Machamp and Heracross, not to mention Revenakh.

 

[chronostrike]

You're reading that wrong. That's Dane's reasoning why woodman shouldn't get Earth Power.