CAP 33 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

[spoo]

After two days of polling, we're finally here with quziel's concept The Very Fast Immovable Object! This stage is incredibly important, as it informs the direction of the entire rest of the process. Please carefully read the concept, quoted below, and review the guidelines for participating in this stage as well.

Title: Very Fast Immovable Object

Description: This is a wall that has a high speed stat

Justification: When designing a wall, we typically prioritize defensive typing, defensive stats, and ability choice the most, with offensive prowess and speed being secondary considerations at best. This concept aims to explore how the general considerations for designing a wall change when said wall actually has the speed stat to change how it interacts with the offensive threats it's expected to take on.

Questions:

• How and why does the Speed stat matter for a wall.
• When and why does outrunning an offensive threat matter?
• Is speed only useful for letting a wall force a KO on a threat before said threat can KO it? What formes of utility / recovery are strongly speed dependent?
• Are there any options that are open to a wall specifically because of a high speed stat that may not be open to slower walls, even accounting for ability choice?
• What makes fast walls decide to not just invest in their offenses?
• Does being a "Fast Wall" imply some level of offensive presence? Is offensive presence necessary to truly reap the rewards of going very fast?

Guidelines:

1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.​

2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if you're poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.​

CAP 33's TL ausma will open the thread with their thoughts and a series of questions and considerations. Please make sure to read their initial post and subsequent posts carefully and follow them for discussion! Keep posts civil and on topic, or else they will be deleted.

CAP 33 So Far

 

[ausma]

Hello everyone! We finally have our concept: Very Fast Immovable Object. I'm really excited about this one and I personally believe there is a lot of design space surrounding the role Speed plays that will really have us think about its significance as a stat across the board. To kick off discussion, though, I think there's some important things we need to establish about this concept due to its very unique parameters. Before answering any questions or if you're wondering about the idea behind Very Fast Immovable Object, I implore you read quziel's submission here. Here are your initial questions:

The original submission asks arguably the most important question in order to establish a framework for our process. Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?

Some status and utility moves seen on walls can be Speed dependent, as the original concept mentions. How can these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?

The concept notes how Speed as a stat can be worthwhile to invest into instead of bulk on defensively inclined Pokemon. Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokemon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?

Speed is an incredibly powerful stat, and we need to consider that. It will inevitably interact with offense and defense simultaneously, regardless of how much we fine tune our build. As such, it's really important to consider the fine line we tread with balancing them. How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

Very Fast Immovable Object considers Pokemon like Mega Latias, Talonflame, and Scream Tail as examples of Pokemon that fit its concept. Are there any others that are worth considering? What makes these examples effective at being walls even without dedicated investment? Are they offensive in any important ways when actualizing this concept? If so, how?

__

Because of the very abstract design space this concept calls for, I really want us to take some time to dissect these questions, as well as anything else the original concept posits that I may have missed. I am aiming for this first wave of discussion to last around 48 hours, and possibly shorter or longer depending on activity.

Without further ado, let's get started!

 

[Samirsin]

1. Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?
Speed matters for a wall because it can redefine the wall's role on the battlefield. A high Speed stat empowers the wall to potentially outspeed and disrupt opponents before they execute their moves. This opens up new strategic possibilities, allowing the wall to dictate the flow of battle by forcing switches or disrupting opponents' setup attempts. Speed becomes a tool for control, prediction, and seizing momentum.

Overall, the concept of a very fast wall introduces an element of surprise and disruption, as opponents must adapt to a wall that not only withstands hits but also actively interferes with their game plan. This unique approach challenges us to rethink the role of Speed in defensive strategies and encourages discussions about how this new dynamic affects the metagame.

2. Some status and utility moves seen on walls can be Speed dependent, as the original concept mentions. How might these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?
Moves like Encore, Disable, Strength Sap and Taunt often aim to control the opponent's strategy. With a high Speed stat, a wall could outspeed and disrupt opponents before they execute their moves, potentially tipping the balance in favor of the wall's team.

3. Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokemon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?
This question delves into the balance between Speed and bulk. If a high Speed stat allows a wall to outpace and disrupt opponents, it might compensate for lower defensive investment. We should explore scenarios where Speed investment proves more valuable than traditional bulk investment and how this influences team strategy.

4. How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?
To determine the necessary level of offensive potency, we need to analyze the specific threats that CAP 33 aims to counter or disrupt. The offensive capability required to secure favorable 1v1 matchups against these targets is crucial. If the wall's offensive prowess is too high, it might overshadow its defensive role or lead to unintended dominance against a broader range of opponents.

5. Very Fast Immovable Object considers Pokemon like Mega Latias, Talonflame, and Scream Tail as examples. Are there any others that are worth considering? What makes these examples effective at being walls even without dedicated investment? Are they offensive in any important ways when actualizing this concept? If so, how?
Pokémon like Mega Sableye, Mandibuzz, or even bulky Water-types with access to reliable recovery moves could demonstrate the potential of the concept, but now with Speed. Despite being primarily defensive, the mentioned examples often possess offensive utility. Mega Latias has access to powerful special moves, Talonflame's priority moves provide offensive pressure, and Scream Tail's ability to disrupt opponents also contributes to its overall offensive presence. These offensive aspects enhance their versatility, enabling them to handle a wider range of threats. Lugia with Multiscale, Encore Iron Valiant, Roaring Moon high special defense are other examples.

Hyper high speed is not necessary, but we must focus on a specific threat to build around it.

 

[Brown4Sides]

Some status and utility moves seen on walls can be Speed dependent, as the original concept mentions. How might these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?

Utility moves may be able to either debuff the opponent or weaken their offensive potential before it can get off an attack. If you underspeed your opponent, you switch-in, take an attack, next turn, take another attack, then debuff them. If you outspeed your opponent, however, you can debuff them after being hit with just one attack.

How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

We can totally get by without being offensive. Pokemon that lack offensive potential in the metagame is not unheard of. If anything, I would argue going too offensive would hurt the concept, as going too offensive would detract from our role. I'm willing to give some leeway to this, but not by too much.

 

[snake]

Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?

Who goes first in a matchup completely changes how the matchup works. Although priority helps slower offensive teams mitigate speed issues, Speed is the most important stat in the game. For a wall, CAP33 can cripple (or just knock out) opposing wallbreakers or sweepers before they have a chance to act, or else those slower Pokemon will have to switch out.

Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokemon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?

At a certain Speed stat, it's almost always worth investing max speed, as seen with Mega Latias, Talonflame, and Scream Tail.

How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

Some sort of offensive presence is likely warranted, but it depends on the other aspects of the CAP. For example, a build with a strong defensive typing, a high speed stat, and wide array of utility is likely only balanced if its offensive presence is heavily limited (see Scream Tail). On the other hand, choosing a less potent defensive typing could allow the offensive presence to be higher to be higher (see Mega Latias and Talonflame).

Very Fast Immovable Object considers Pokemon like Mega Latias, Talonflame, and Scream Tail as examples. Are there any others that are worth considering? What makes these examples effective at being walls even without dedicated investment? Are they offensive in any important ways when actualizing this concept? If so, how?

Mega Latias took advantage of its respectable special attack stat to apply pressure or even set up with Calm Mind. Of note, Mega Latias' massive stats are largely mitigated by exploitable weaknesses with its still-good defensive typing and its lack of an item slot. Talonflame has a large focus on burning opponents with Flame Body or Will-o-Wisp, but its Brave Bird hits respectably hard for the tiers where it has been a fast wall. Scream Tail, on the other hand, has barely any offensive presence but focuses mostly on passing Wish and disrupting teams with Encore. It's probably closest to being a conventional "wall" than the other two, but I think it's good that its offensive potential is so limited because of just how gargantuan its bulk is.

 

[Stories]

Hi I am a CAP casual at best but I adore the design process taken for these guys. Sorry if I do this wrong

• How and why does the Speed stat matter for a wall? Speed is the most important stat in the game, being able to use a move before your opponent can be the difference between life and death, and this applies to utility moves that a wall would use as well. Being able to restore your own HP, set up hazards or screens for an ally, or even dish out a bit of damage before going down can be the game maker, and there are many Pokemon with great potential that never get to make use of it due to their poor Speed.
• When and why does outrunning an offensive threat matter? This ties into my first point a bit (making me think I answered the first bit wrong lol) but moving before your opponent means using a move that you couldn't have if they outsped and KO'd you. There are some incredibly potent utility moves that can enable offensive threats in this game, some examples being Healing Wish / Lunar Dance / Revival Blessing, Heal Bell, Rapid Spin / Defog, Aurora Veil / Light Screen / Reflect, Encore, Knock Off, and many other pivoting moves. You see Speed play an important role among defensive Pokemon, especially in doubles formats, with Prankster being regarded as one of the best support abilities in the entire game, along with others like Triage and fast Pokemon like Protosynthesis Scream Tail, Booster Energy Iron Bundle, and Regieleki.
• Is speed only useful for letting a wall force a KO on a threat before said threat can KO it? What formes of utility / recovery are strongly speed dependent? I honestly think it's quite the opposite, unless you count revenge-killing as utility, but you can semantics your way into anything that wins you the game is utility so I won't go down that route. While high speed is often considered valuable for support moves, there's the understated value of slow utility options like a slow HP recovery used to safely absorb a hit and be healthier than if you were to heal and then be hit after, there's also slow pivoting in the infamous Teleport but also U-turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot on slower Pokemon and even MORE niche was Orthworm's slow Shed Tail in OU before being banned, allowing it to safely pass a Substitute after absorbing the incoming attack for a frailer offensive teammate. I think HP / status restoration and pivoting are the two most important and universal utility aspects, with things like hazard support (please stop giving every single CAP pokemon spikes and/or spin) close behind, and then the gimmicks like screens, webs, phasing, etc..
• Are there any options that are open to a wall specifically because of a high speed stat that may not be open to slower walls, even accounting for ability choice? Pivoting into a wallbreaker and shutting down their setup option is a luxury slower Pokemon don't have. As an example in NU (forgive me for being an NU addict), Despite Drifblim's superior bulk, Sableye makes for a better check against the likes of Tauros and Medicham due to Prankster giving it effectively greater speed.
• What makes fast walls decide to not just invest in their offenses? Besides the obvious answer of "their offenses suck comparatively", sometimes the utility moves used to assist another offensive Pokemon can give more payout than just running two unsupported offensive Pokemon.
• Does being a "Fast Wall" imply some level of offensive presence? Is offensive presence necessary to truly reap the rewards of going very fast? I think some utility moves can be considered offensive. I mean let's be real sometimes Thunder Wave is basically an OHKO move. Overall I think Fast Wall DOESN'T imply a level of offensive presence, but typically fast walls without offensive presence tend to be kinda bad unless their defensive presence is just that absurd (like Blissey).

I hope this isn't considered poll jumping but I think support regarding hazards would be pretty lame given nearly every CAP Pokemon has Spikes or Rapid Spin even if it makes 0 sense thematically imo. A Pokemon with low HP and a fast Pain Split could be neat, Teleport is sorely missed in SV, Revival Blessing seems like a neat move to attempt to keep balanced, and maybe something berry-related could be done CORRECTLY (Greedent and Oinkologne are very poorly designed).

 

[SHSP]

The original submission asks arguably the most important question in order to establish a framework for our process. Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?

Generally speaking you're expecting a wall to get hit first before doing it's end of the interaction- with a faster wall, a lot of the way it plays changes. The talk about status and how important speed is has been covered in posts like Togkey's and Snake's, but it's also worth noting that it does make a lot of little things different compared to the way other walls and fatter mons play out situations. A quick example off the top of my head is in recovery: the pattern of taking a hit and healing the damage back up changes with the wall outspeeding the attacker, now healing before it takes a hit and ends the turn at a lower HP, which in turn has pros and cons (safer vs crits, leaves you lower for the following turn, etc).

Some status and utility moves seen on walls can be Speed dependent, as the original concept mentions. How can these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?

Having the higher speed helps a decent amount with prediction when it comes to stuff like say, Wisp and Twave status gameplans. If you're faster than the physical mon you switch in on, you've got a lot more ease in clicking Wisp knowing you're (assuming you hit) taking a significantly less powerful hit or forcing the mon out and spreading a burn to something else. Disruption type moves like Encore and screens as mentioned above also get a lot easier to click and to take advantage of with the better speed in play, compared to being a lot more reliant on prediction and getting correct turns with slower walls.

How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

A lot of it does come down to targets, but I think having some level of offensive strength really isn't a bad thing for this sort of a concept. There are really not that many mons that come to mind that do little to nothing offensively and still find their way onto competent teams (that aren't committed to something like harder stall styles). Obviously we don't exactly want to max out the triangle of "fast strong and fat," and concept is dictating that we're leaning more towards the fast and fat ends, but it's gotta have some juice to find its way into the metagame. It doesn't have to come through direct damage, either- Togkey makes a good mention of utility like Twave filling the role- but I think its an important part of how these sort of mons get usage.

 

[Fenghuang]

I wonder for this CAP how much offensive presence we want it to have. Good speed+ good bulk is already a lot of stats, so unless we give this CAP insane BST the offensive capabilities are going to have to be at least somewhat low, but of course we can cut into our bulk if we want to give it more offensive presence. I say this because I think the utility benefits of going first are interesting and are fun to explore, but I don't see as much discussion about the offensive uses of fast bulk. With that being said:

Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?

One thing I'm thinking of, is that a fast bulky mon can attack, take a hit, and then attack again. In that sense, the combination of bulk and speed allows a mon to have a higher offensive presence than it normally would, combined of course with walling and utility.

How can these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?

There are the more obvious ones (fast taunt for denying hazards and status, fast screens for utility and additional bulk a la scream, fast strength sap for denying damage, etc) but I think something we haven't mentioned yet is fast defensive boosting. This is something that some chinese registeel sets used to really enjoy; registeel isn't fast, but it can be faster than a lot of things if you max invest speed, and you don't really miss the lost bulk that much because you can iron defense and amnesia before your opponent attacks. Registeel didn't do this super well, but I think in general a fast cosmic power/iron defense/amnesia/bulk up/calm mind can really let a bulky mon get the most out of its EVs. Someone mentioned teleport and I'm kinda obsessed with the idea now; teleport has hitherto only been given to pokemon without the bulk to use it (alakazam, gardevoir), or pokemon who are really slow (slowtwins, etc). The main exception to this is teleport arcanine, one of my favorite sets of all time. The ability to outspeed the opponent with will-os, screens, etc and then eat a hit and give your offensive mons a free switch is a huge boon, and can be really fun and powerful if done right.

Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokemon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?

This is a non-issue if we give it enough tools, and even if it doesn't want to invest in speed in some sets that's fine. as long as speedier sets are also equally or more viable.

How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

I have spoken a bunch in this post about offensive presence, but I actually think this CAP really needs to lean harder into utility, though I think that sometimes offensive presence can aid a mons utility by making it less defenseless and less of setup fodder, even if its running a very utility-centric set. Scream Tail comes to mind, a mon who brings the fast bulk and utility but has a decently strong dazzling gleam when needed.

Are there any others that are worth considering? What makes these examples effective at being walls even without dedicated investment? Are they offensive in any important ways when actualizing this concept? If so, how?

Gliscor is the main one that comes to mind. Its 95 speed allows it to taunt and u turn on several relevant threats in DPP, though that's less speed than it used to be and it is pretty slow by modern standards. The other one is Tentacrul, a bulky water that sports a shockingly high 100 speed. Ho-oh and Lugia are two more than come to mind when I think "fast bulk", though I am unsure how much we can learn from box legendaries with 680 BST.

 

[shnowshner]

The original submission asks arguably the most important question in order to establish a framework for our process. Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?

Tbh the biggest factor here is this common situation with your "standard" slow wall

Turn A: Opponent positions a strong and fast attacker against us. We are compelled to hard switch here to our defensive answer.
Turn B: We switch, and get hit with an attack. Our bulk is enough to weather the hit as expected.
Turn C: Since we are slower, the opponent is always able to act before us, allowing them to either switch out, or attack again however they can.

Generally, we're not in the most advantageous position in this series of turns. Sure if we adequately wall the Pokemon in front of us, things are way better, but we've got a lot of momentum to regain and likely would want to spend a turn healing ourself if we want to not lose this interaction later.

A fast wall can eliminate the concerns presented during Turn C, if we can act before the opponent does. In fact, it largely reshapes the relationship. If our opponent has the ability to simply U-Turn on during Turn C, that's often a very safe play to make as it deals extra damage and catches us on a double. Outspeeding them here means that going for U-Turn, while now providing a slow pivot, could leave the active Pokemon liable for getting crippled in some fashion.

In short, a slower wall often cedes advantage in exchange for its staying power, while a fast wall can nab that advantage back way quicker by virtue of limiting the opponent's options. It's especially helpful later on when our HP might be low from having to stave off threats multiple times or after rounds of chip damage: a wall at 50% needing to take two hits before getting to act is significantly more vulnerable than one that only needs to survive that one turn.

Some status and utility moves seen on walls can be Speed dependent, as the original concept mentions. How can these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?

Going first allows us to change these moves from a "reaction" to an "action" so to speak. Clearest example would be Will-O-Wisp, a move I envision as being a major talking point in the future. A slow wall using Wisp would want to be sure it's plenty safe to use, due to the imperfect accuracy of Wisp meaning you may lose that turn. Similarly, the opponent has more options to deal with us using Wisp: you could lure us in and use Substitute on the turn Wisp comes us, granting both free setup and protection from the Burn status. Contrast this with moving before the target: we're immediately threatening the opponent with status that will reduce their damage output. In some cases, Wisp could be our means of walling the opponent, instead of a way of punishing them as we wall them out. Additionally, we'd be able to use Wisp before they can employ their own countermeasures.

The concept notes how Speed as a stat can be worthwhile to invest into instead of bulk on defensively inclined Pokemon. Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokemon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?

Speed is an incredibly powerful stat, and we need to consider that. It will inevitably interact with offense and defense simultaneously, regardless of how much we fine tune our build. As such, it's really important to consider the fine line we tread with balancing them. How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

Answering these together. I'll give an example:

Suppose we're designed to handle Iron Moth, but this is a Pokemon with the capability to swap out one of its coverage moves for one that targets us specifically, flipping the matchup and punching a hole in our team with a 2HKO when we thought we were safe. A slower wall would need to find some sort of insurance against this plan if you're concerned about it: options like Protect, resist Berries, or an ideal defensive partner can help here. If we're fast enough, however... we could just give ourselves a move like Earthquake and delete Iron Moth from the game. (Tera absolutely can make this more difficult but it's a bit early to assess that.)

A fast wall gives us greater access to the best defense one can imagine: removing the offense. Now there's a wrong way to go about this, and that of course is giving ourselves so much offense that the term "wall" no longer applies. But being a wall doesn't mean we don't attack, it just means we usually don't attack first. Our concept lets us do just that, so there are plenty of situations where our defensive merit will come not from raw bulk, but from specific matchups where we can switch in on the right moves or the right sequence of plays and genuinely scare the opponent out instead of denying them progress. This is sorta what Zeraora did in SS: as the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the metagame, you provided a defense against other fast threats by virture of moving before them and threatening to KO them, whether that was Knock Off onto Dragapult or Close Combat into Weavile. Zera is quite far from our definition of a wall, but you can see the promise here. Outspeeding the opponent gives us more options on how we want to tackle their presence, while reducing theirs in return.

I imagine some sort of offensive pressure would help us work defensively here as it's true of many other defensive Pokemon, but I don't view it as needed to function, just more straightforward in both design and comprehension. Our offensive presense could legit end up as running a STAB or strong coverage solely for like half a dozen key matchups where they can get good damage off and mostly just harass the rest of the metagame if we can afford the time.

Very Fast Immovable Object considers Pokemon like Mega Latias, Talonflame, and Scream Tail as examples of Pokemon that fit its concept. Are there any others that are worth considering? What makes these examples effective at being walls even without dedicated investment? Are they offensive in any important ways when actualizing this concept? If so, how?

https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/crobat/
https://www.smogon.com/dex/ss/pokemon/crobat/

Check the first two sets. Crobat is running a combination of heavy Speed investment to outpace the Pokemon it needs to, and then dumping the rest into bulk. The base stats really don't jump out as "wall" here, but the combination of the right typing for the metagame and the ability to outpace much of what it wants to switch into (or even what switches into it) gives it a fantastic defensive profile. It's definitely a looser fit on the wall definition as it operates closer to a pivot, but it can still effectively wall out a number of Pokemon in its environment and that's what we'd want to be emulating here.

This is largely what holds true for Talonflame, as the stats don't line up with wall, but the typing and capability to outspeed lets it find success in that role anyhow. Add in access to useful status moves and the defensive applications of Flame Body even against bad matchups, and you've got a very capable defensive Pokemon.

 

[Amamama]

Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?

Speed matters for every Pokémon. In a pinch a faster Pokémon will have the upper hand over a slower one as going first can potentially allow it to net a KO before the opponent can react.
The ability to go first can help Pokémon with lower bulk to still force switches.
A Pokémon like Dragapult or Meowscarada can check a number of offensive Pokémon during an entire game without ever having to rely on bulk, simply bc they move first and threaten the opposing Pokémon out. Slower Pokémon on the other hand have to rely on having enough bulk to eat one potentially even two hits of the Pokémon they want to threaten out.

How can these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?

While Pult is not a Wall it has defensive utility and Hex sets even have similarities to defensive Pokémon as they use Status Moves to debuff and soften the opponent adding chip damage and boosting its strongest move.
This is another important factor of going first as a defensive Pokémon. Other utility moves like Haze or Foul Play, Encore or Taunt become much more effective at stopping opposing offensive Pokémon if the Wall using them is faster then their opponent since they can lock a sweeper or breaker into unfavorable/out if necessary moves or simply take away or abuse their boosts before being hit.
Moves that spread Burn are very interesting for defensive Pokémon as they - if they are faster than the opponent - basically improve the users defense stat by 50% (idk if the math is correct here)
Knock-Off can remove power boosting items and soften the opponents power in a similar way.
Lastly defensive boosting moves going first can allow their user to take hits they otherwise might not.

Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokemon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?

Speed investment becomes more interesting the harder it is for a Pokémon to avoid 2hkos and the more offensive Power it has.
Being faster and then also being threatening to an opponent means you often take only
one hit at most. Being faster also means being able to switch into resisted hits even if the opponent could possibly follow up with a super effective coverage move.

How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

There certainly is a point where a fast Pokémon might opt to slap on a choice item or other power boosting item and simply be an offensive pivot.
That said offensive power can be necessary to check opposing Pokémon.
If you aren’t capable of stomaching two hits from an opposing breaker and are unable to immediately KO back you lose a lot of potency as a defensive Pokémon.
Still offensive Power can be substituted with utility in some cases.
A fast wall will be able to threaten opposing offensive Pokémon with utility like will-o-wisp or thunderwave especially early game, when offensive Mons still need all their power to break open defensive cores.

Are there any others that are worth considering? What makes these examples effective at being walls even without dedicated investment? Are they offensive in any important ways when actualizing this concept? If so, how?

I think one of the most interesting fast walls is Alolan Persian.
Its Speed in conjunction with Fur Coat and Fould Play allow it to check physical attackers and sweepers it otherwise could not.
Adding a fast Thunder wave further boosts its ability to check offensive threats.
Another very curious case is Prankster Sableye.
This Pokémon virtually has no defensive stats, but Prankster allowing its utility to go first means it actually can serve as a defensive Pokémon thanks to will-o-wisp and fast recovery.

 

[Sawyer.]

As I see it, these are the three biggest benefits a fast wall has over a slower, bulkier wall:

1. A fast wall still has utility (including the ability to heal up) when it is at low HP. This makes it less susceptible to being overwhelmed, and also means it can be played more recklessly.
2. A fast wall is typically better at dealing with some wallbreakers. For example, Scream Tail can switch into Iron Valiant and Encore it if it uses Swords Dance, whereas a slower check would be liable to get 2HKOd by a +2 attack. A fast wall can also provide a last-ditch way to get damage or status on a threat, even at the cost of its life.
3. A fast wall can kill weakened offensive Pokemon without letting them attack.

Based on the above, I initially thought we should design this CAP around using status moves to deal with specific wallbreakers which threaten balance/stall teams. However, most wallbreakers in the metagame have ways to boost their speed (through e.g. Booster Energy or Dragon Dance), making this a questionable route to take. I also think that if we're focusing purely on fast status moves, we'd be better off just using Prankster.

Because of this, I believe it makes more sense to focus on CAP33's offensive capabilities. With enough speed and damage output, CAP33 could reliably clean weakened offensive teams, yet still lack the power or coverage to be an offensive threat in its own right. At the same time, it should have sufficient bulk and recovery to reliably check/counter a range of threats. This would be a fascinating niche, and not one that I've really seen before (although bulky Crobat, as mentioned by Shnowshner, comes pretty close).

 

[Voltage]

Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?

Many walls we see in play are often slow, and are therefore characterized on their ability to absorb significant amounts of damage and shrug it off. Because of their reactive nature (as opposed to a proactive nature), these walls are specifically used to invalidate the actions of their opponents. With a faster wall, we now are being preventative. We have pointed at Scream Tail quite a bit here, but I think there's a lot of merit in observing that Scream tail can prevent its foes from acting in the way they want because of its high base speed, and use of moves like Encore. Because Scream Tail, a fast wall, moves first, it can decide the pace of play and make the opponent react to its more defense-based actions. Mega Latias has a similar function in older gens since it has the speed to usually outpace most of its foes, and thus allow the user to decide which actions that they want to do that turn. Do you need to heal to get out of critical hit range? Great, click Recover. do you have enough HP to bolster your defenses? Great, click Calm Mind. the fact is, the fast wall has the autonomy to do what it wants without having to try and predict what the foe may do, beyond cases of priority attacks which are often easily anticipated.

The opponent, therefore is now put into a reactive playstyle, which causes them to consider what they can do to prevent the wall from acting. The same thought process applies: "do I have priority moves to prevent the fast wall from acting?" might cross their mind, for example. The opponent facing the Fast Wall must consider what they can do to prevent the fast wall from just doing what it wants: are they able to out boost it? Would switching to a different party member work better? The player facing the fast wall must regain control of the pace of play in order to ensure the fast wall doesn't put a fast end to their match through its means of controlling the narrative.

Some status and utility moves seen on walls can be Speed dependent, as the original concept mentions. How can these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?

Speed is something that is variable, as we've seen with the change in generations. Paralysis immediately comes to mind as a way to generate artificial speed through slowing down the opponent. By clicking Thunder Wave, not only do you halve the opponent's speed, but you also put them on a stupid RNG system that might even prevent them from acting at all. When paired with a moderately fast Pokemon, you would be able to create opportunities later in the match to artificially outspeed your foes, which would be essential for success. But when the Thunder Wave user is already VERY fast, the use of Thunder Wave now become a lot more preventative in nature. But Paralyzing a foes when you're already fast, you are able to effectively shut it down from ever being able to set up and sweep past you in a meaningful way. Provided your attack doesn't miss, this is almost a guaranteed way to maintain control of play.

Encore is another example, as we've come to understand. If moving second, you have almost no control over what you're locking the opponent into. But if moving first, you can actively choose whether or not you want to lock the opponent into the move they just used, and then manipulate that case to your advantage. You also can maintain the mind game aspect of it all too, forcing your opponent to perhaps misplay on the expected Encore. I see very little reason to use Encore on anything remotely slow, you lose your autonomy (in general I think Fast Walls provide a lot of user autonomy and control). We can look at a direct CAP example with Astrolotl with Base 114 speed and encore (and also Will-o-Wisp, another example). Astrolotl makes effective use of Encore because it's got an ability that allows it to enter battle pretty regularly, and a base speed that's high enough to outpace many metagame threats both with AND without investment. Meaning that the threats Astrolotl wants to outspeed can be prepared for with proper Speed EVs and then the remaining EVs can be spend on making Astrolotl tanky enough to survive a hit and then lock the foe into it as it switches out, restoring HP in the process. Astrolotl's high base speed allows for it to be EV'd bulkier, which therefore allows it to use Encore effectively.

Will-O-Wisp is another move that becomes more effective from a defense perspective when used by a fast user. Returning the Astrolotl example, one of the ways it might be effective from a more defensive utility perspective is that it can use Will-o-Wisp to halve any physical damage it might otherwise take. This halving imparts some pseudo physical bulk upon Astrolotl as now it does not have to worry as much about physical attacks coming from the Pokemon it just outsped and burned.

In general, status moves are very effective on faster Pokemon if we want to consider a defensive perspective. With a faster defensive Pokemon using these moves, they continuously control the pace of play in a match which is imperative in play.

The concept notes how Speed as a stat can be worthwhile to invest into instead of bulk on defensively inclined Pokemon. Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokemon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?

I got ahead of myself in the last question when I referenced Astrolotl, but I think the point still stands. Astrolotl has a high base speed, but it only cares outspeeding a certain number of Pokemon depending on its application. Therefore, the remaining amount of EVs can be used to determine the right stat spread that would allow Astrolotl to avoid a 2HKO from something it might mean to check. Now Astrolotl still runs a lot of speed in general, but I think there's a limit to where speed will ultimately be a prioritize in the moveset: once you outspeed all the Pokemon you aim to check or counter, you don't want to waste any more EVs in Speed when they could be spent in bolstering defense or even giving the wall just enough offense to cleanly pick up a very specific knock out, for example. But, if the Pokemon we aim to check requires an maximum investment in Speed for one reason or another, then we're going to have to either maximize the speed, or accept that this Pokemon will not check the that fast Pokemon. The question then becomes, what does moving before the faster Pokemon allow us to do in a match. If the only way to check the faster Pokemon is to outspeed it and either cripple it or knock it out, then you better believe we're going to want speed at the cost of some defensive presence.

Speed is an incredibly powerful stat, and we need to consider that. It will inevitably interact with offense and defense simultaneously, regardless of how much we fine tune our build. As such, it's really important to consider the fine line we tread with balancing them. How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

I feel like offensive potency is something like salt in this process. We will need some of it in order to ensure that we manage to complete the process of walling a set of Pokemon, but we don't want too much offense lest we start to turn into something more like a tank. In my humble opinion asuccessful Wall has a very specific offensive presence that can prove to be fatal under proper circumstances. If we consider Mega Slowbro in ORAS, with a set like:

Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Slack Off
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock

Notice how there's still a potential for offensive progress to be made via Scald and Psyshock, but it comes off of a Base 30 Speed. While 130 SpA is definitely a HIGH special attack stat, if the target resists Water or Psychic moves, like Ferrothorn, or doesn't fear a Burn, like Zadpos, Rotom-W or Cyclohm, then Mega Slowbro can be a detriment to the space. Furthermore, anything faster than it (read almost everything) running Taunt will be able to shut down the parts of Mega Slowbro that pose the biggest threat: Mega Slowbro's ability to heal itself and slowly set up with Calm Mind while not fearing Critical hits with Shell Armor.

Slowbro does not immediately win 1v1s, but instead requires careful play in order to find openings in which it can start setting up and force a checkmate. It does not have an immediate offensive presence, but almost nothing is taking down a Mega Slowbro at +3 Spa and +3 SpD without boosts of its own, and if this Mega Slowbro has been sweeping through the opposing team, there's almost no way to stop it.

Furthermore, I think boosting leans well into the idea of a fast all, as observed with Mega Latias. Mega Latias has a Base 140 SpA which, again is nothing to coff at, but it still cannot break through al the defensive threats it faces withut some additional set up on its own. Luckily, Mega-Latias is able to check a lot of common threats from ORAS and SM OU through its inherent bulk, and force openings with it speed. A +0 Mega Latias wins very few 1v1 matchups, but a +2 Mega Latias might pose a much greater threat. I think this CAP should have some kind of similar offensive capability, albeit not with such exaggerated win and loss conditions. We should not be winning matchups 1v1 unless given ample time to set up our offenses in a significant way. Perhaps this boosting potential could be used as a way to punish the opponent for playing poorly around this wall.

Very Fast Immovable Object considers Pokemon like Mega Latias, Talonflame, and Scream Tail as examples of Pokemon that fit its concept. Are there any others that are worth considering? What makes these examples effective at being walls even without dedicated investment? Are they offensive in any important ways when actualizing this concept? If so, how?

Other fast Pokemon that can be played as walls that come to mind are:

• ADV OU Defensive Flygon, which manages to be one of the few Pokemon that check Tyranitar by threatening Earthquake or Toxic (though it does have to be wary of Ice Beam) by nature of just being faster than an unboosted Tyranitar.
• DPP Ubers Lugia sports a Base 110 Speed and a solid defensive typing given its circumstnces. However, what makes Lugia most effective is its naturally insane bulk. Lugia does not rely on its offenses in DPP Ubers, rather it relies entirely on its speed and Defenses to bolster its bulk with moves like Reflect and Roost, while letting turns of Toxic whittle down foes, and using a coverage move every now and then to accelerate the process.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I wonder for this CAP how much offensive presence we want it to have. Good speed+ good bulk is already a lot of stats, so unless we give this CAP insane BST the offensive capabilities are going to have to be at least somewhat low, but of course we can cut into our bulk if we want to give it more offensive presence. I say this because I think the utility benefits of going first are interesting and are fun to explore, but I don't see as much discussion about the offensive uses of fast bulk. With that being said:

If we do go for the more offensively inclined route, the key problem to overcome will be our BST constraints. Taking Crobat as our blueprint, it has a relatively high BST (535), but only 85/80/80 bulk and 90 attack. To overcome this without min-maxing, we may need to focus on just one defensive stat, or else rely on high-powered moves to overcome a relatively low attack stat.

High/low BST is not a concern in CAP. If we hypothetically think that we are going to need cover legendary stats to pull off the concept, then that would be an option that could be put on the table (The odds of this happening are extremely low, but it's just a good way to get a point across). CAP has pretty much always subscribed to the belief that BST is a meaningless measurement of power, hence why we use BSR instead, and the most recent process (Hemogoblin) did a very good job at showcasing this in my opinion (We had numerous sub-BST 500 Stat Spreads that were submitted that all would have been fairly strong, and even the winning spread still has a fairly low BST compared most of the other CAPs). We are not going to be constraining ourselves into being within a certain BST limit during the process, as pretty much anything is going to be fair game here. As for any sort of limits to our BSR, this is something that will be dealt with by a discussion lead by the Stats Leader when the time comes for it. For the time being, it would be best to assume that pretty much any sort of stat spread, within reason, is something within the realm of possibility.

Might make a response to some of the questions later on, not super sure at the moment. This is just something I wanted to get off my chest for now.

 

[Pipotchi]

Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?

When you move first and can recover before getting hit, it increases your bulk twofold in some situations- you can switch into hits that would 2hko other mons as seen with every Prankster recover user, and wall a mon that does 40% despite switching in with 45% of your hp remaining. This means you have more free turns in the match to press things like status, hazards, spin, or whatever other duties you have as a utility pokemon. A lot of faster mons rely on this 1-2 punch to finish off things that switch in on them, and wearing down mons to 2hko later on the switch is just an integral part of competitive pokemon. This is very valuable to evade.

When you threaten something out while faster, it also means they can't keep a handle on the tempo of the match with pivoting moves, having to hard switch out. Overall, your options are much higher than your opponents and they may have to deal with multiple things they wouldn't even in their winning matchups- like considering getting hit by a pivoting move, or status before getting to attack you. We can see that even mons like Cinderace are able to use Will-o-wisp to cripple its answers, giving it agency in losing matchups even with its middling, uninvested defensive stats.
Also if you take 60% from an attack and threaten the opponent back while outspeeding, you can call their bluff and recover while they feel forced to switch.

Are there any others that are worth considering? What makes these examples effective at being walls even without dedicated investment? Are they offensive in any important ways when actualizing this concept? If so, how?
Base Sableye and Tornadus-T are good examples of being fast walls in a non-traditional sense- but a lot of their interactions can be used as reference. Tornadus was able to take on mons like Kart despite middling offenses for a few reasons- resisting/neutrality to all its attacks, outspeeding, and threatening an ohko is kinda the holy trinity when it comes to countering a mon and something we should keep in mind too. Regenerator plays a big part in Torn's success, but I think it can be emulated by recovery- a mon like Kartana would still struggle heavily and could never attempt anything like swords dance to break through thanks to the outspeeding and threat of ohko.

Sableye is a special case as prankster imitates a base 255 speed stat for most of its movepool. Its a great example of showing how faster healing prevents you from being 2hkod on the switch, as well as unnaturally inflating bulk with will-o-wisp before getting hit. Encore and Taunt are also moves that only really have big value against offensive mons when you're faster, and it was able to make use of all of these together to make even its miserable defenses look decent in older gens. This is more of a look at status moves where torn is an example of attacks and improved offensive presence through speed.

 

[Fenghuang]

High/low BST is not a concern in CAP. If we hypothetically think that we are going to need cover legendary stats to pull off the concept, then that would be an option that could be put on the table (The odds of this happening are extremely low, but it's just a good way to get a point across). CAP has pretty much always subscribed to the belief that BST is a meaningless measurement of power, hence why we use BSR instead, and the most recent process (Hemogoblin) did a very good job at showcasing this in my opinion (We had numerous sub-BST 500 Stat Spreads that were submitted that all would have been fairly strong, and even the winning spread still has a fairly low BST compared most of the other CAPs). We are not going to be constraining ourselves into being within a certain BST limit during the process, as pretty much anything is going to be fair game here. As for any sort of limits to our BSR, this is something that will be dealt with by a discussion lead by the Stats Leader when the time comes for it. For the time being, it would be best to assume that pretty much any sort of stat spread, within reason, is something within the realm of possibility.

Might make a response to some of the questions later on, not super sure at the moment. This is just something I wanted to get off my chest for now.

I was using BST as a proxy for BSR, because I didn't want to make bsr claims

 

[viol and bass]

I'm gonna just respond to this since I don't have much to add to other people's answers to the other questions.

Speed is an incredibly powerful stat, and we need to consider that. It will inevitably interact with offense and defense simultaneously, regardless of how much we fine tune our build. As such, it's really important to consider the fine line we tread with balancing them. How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

I feel that some amount of offensive threat level, by virtue of having STABs that threaten certain key Pokemon, is really beneficial to any defensive pokemon, and particularly a fast one. If you've played with Scream Tail at all, you might find that you end up clicking Dazzling Gleam (a laughably weak move coming off of its 65 SpAtk) more often than you'd expect, just because so many of the Pokemon that you bring that mon in against are weak to Fairy. So I think typings whose STABs allow you to have a bit of automatic threat level are quite valuable to us, and huge bonus points if those STABs have additional utility. I don't believe we need high offensive stats at all to achieve this, as the Scream Tail example illustrates. Instead it's potentially something to factor in during the typing stage.

As for whether offensive potency would be a bad thing, I think it's fine if it doesn't detract from our primary role as a fast wall. There are mons that wall opponents while doing other things (think Heatran with stallbreaking), and I think that's potentially an acceptable build, but when we have high speed it'd be pretty easy for us to lose sight of the "wall" aspect entirely, so it's something we have to be careful with.

 

[BobKingOfSeagulls]

4. How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

My first instinct thinking on this is that, while of course some offensive presence is warranted in a wall, creating a mon that is Fast and Strong is going to lean away from any potential defensive use and possibly encourage an off-concept playstyle. If a mon is capable of outspeeding and getting KOs, also making it a strong defensive tool (one might say, wall) is going to risk things getting out of control - and of course since we know we want a fast defensive pokemon, I imagine we will have to put offense to the wayside to a certain extent.

 

[Explosion Badger]

How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

While having some offensive presence is useful for threatening frailer offensive mons out, too much can easily make this Pokémon get out of hand. Without the speed handicap that most walls have, even 100 Atk/Spa can become scary offensively, as Dragapult shows, and can easily turn this mon on its head and make it an offensive mon with good bulk rather than a fast wall.

 

[IronTemplar]

Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokémon it is tasked to take on?

Speed could actually be a very important feature for a wall. Any kind of setup is extremely valuable, and it's no exception for a wall. Restoring health, increasing stats, or placing hazards are all very common features for assuring pressure that can be exerted while keeping the Pokémon alive. This improves longevity and maintains momentum until a more offensive approach can switch in

How can these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?

As stated before, the moves in question would mainly be used for support/tanking. That's not to say the attack stats won't be used, but perhaps not a priority

Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokémon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?

Yes, very easily. A fast wall can utilize its combination of speed and resilience to ensure strategic advancement while resisting the opposition. One might focus on speed over bulk if that same setup serves to boost or compensate for it. For example, Will O' Wisp at high speed intrinsically boosts defenses by lowering the opponent's attack. In that regard, bulk is able to be compromised for the purposes of flexibility

How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

I'm not even sure if "offensive" is the correct word in this scenario. More "proactive". You don't necessarily need to beat the intended targets, so much as remove them, for as long as they remain a problem. The attack or spa isn't going to matter if your means of removal is to Whirlwind or Roar. With the right speed, that forces out a serious threat while disrupting plays (and maybe even proccing a hazard like Toxic Spikes or Sticky Web). A fast wall has the potential to seriously harass the opponent and impede strategic goals

NOTE: I am not suggesting any of these moves FOR the CAP; merely noting the interaction they COULD have

 

[boomp]

How can these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?
It will be more effective in a sense where it wouldnt have to take damage to either inflict status, remove or set up hazards which can be incredible for a speed wall. The key factor as well is since it can be fast its a less chance of it getting taunted.

 

[lezzy cuttlefish]

Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokemon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?
People have made a lot of points about the ability to spread status or drop the opponent's stats before taking damage, and they're very right, but I think there's a simpler advantage; you get to click your recovery move first. If your wall is faster than a wallbreaker, you don't need to eat 2 hits to come in. With this in mind, I'd argue a defensive pokemon might choose speed investment when it want to deny progress to something that can deal it a strong but not backbreaking hit, in the 40-60% range.

 

[zxgzxg]

Is speed only useful for letting a wall force a KO on a threat before said threat can KO it? What formes of utility / recovery are strongly speed dependent?
More often than not, walls like this shouldn't be able to pick up KOs so easily, otherwise they will lean more offensive than defensive.
The most valuable tool for a "fast wall" would probably be Burn. Will-O-Wisp, Scald, Infernal Parade, etc. would be much more valuable as it allows the user to reduce damage from physical attackers before it takes the damage.

Does being a "Fast Wall" imply some level of offensive presence? Is offensive presence necessary to truly reap the rewards of going very fast?
As I said before, CAP 33 shouldn't be able to KO most foes on its own, but it should have some level of offensive presence just to prevent passivity, whether it be a high-powered STAB (Crobat's Brave Bird, Noivern's Draco Meteor), pivoting, or some form of meaningful chip.
Anything fast should have the option of picking off frail foes in a pinch, otherwise it gives offensive threats too much opportunity to set up or do damage.

 

[flying moose]

Why does Speed even matter for a wall? How might normal interactions change when a wall is faster than the Pokemon it is tasked to take on?

Some status and utility moves seen on walls can be Speed dependent, as the original concept mentions. How can these moves be made more effective/change in application with a high Speed stat?

Very Fast Immovable Object considers Pokemon like Mega Latias, Talonflame, and Scream Tail as examples of Pokemon that fit its concept. Are there any others that are worth considering? What makes these examples effective at being walls even without dedicated investment? Are they offensive in any important ways when actualizing this concept? If so, how?

I will answer these first three together, by citing an unusual pokemon from an extremely different OM: Drifblim in Gen 8 Flipped. (Gen 9 hasn't had a ladder yet so I can't comment on its more recent effectiveness)



In that meta Driflblim has 80/54/90/44/80/150 stats, and usually ran a set like this:

Set

Drifblim @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Strength Sap
- Defog

It was thus used as a fast physical wall (and spinblocker, owing to its type) that provided utility. It was only ranked C- on the ladder but had a defined niche and was used by some very high ranking players (usage at 7.5% at ELO>1630 and 19% at ELO>1760), and probably should have been ranked higher.

A few things to note:

• Its defensive statline of 80/90/80 is far from impressive and its attacking stats are pitiful. Its ability options are also rather situational, either chunking the opponent after dying to specific moves or making it even faster if it gets knocked.
• Its speed, however, is phenomenal, allowing it to outspeed fully invested Base 100s even with no speed investment of its own. (Worth noting that this outruns a much larger percentage of threats in Flipped than in Gen 9 CAP)
• This allows it to fully invest in HP and Defense, turning those paltry stats into something surprisingly respectable
• Perhaps most importantly, it has not just one, but two moves that directly interact with the opponents Attack stat. You could argue that sometimes it even has three such moves, if you remove an opponent's power-boosting item
• It has utility (both in its moveset and the inherent nature of its typing) that could be applied to nerfed opponents or during switches from opponents trying to avoid the nerf

Thus, Flipped Drifblim's walling ability was derived not from its defensive stats, but from its ability to lower its opponent's Attack stat before it could strike. It took advantage of this through utility moves that could be used on predicted switches or after neutralizing the attacker.

Obviously this exact statline would not be as effective in a meta where the attacker's have higher average speed and attacking stats, but I think the overall distribution pattern is a great template we could learn from, with potential for fine-tuning for Gen 9 Cap through multiple avenues (bigger or more specialized defenses, more offensive power, better abilities, different typing and move options).



The concept notes how Speed as a stat can be worthwhile to invest into instead of bulk on defensively inclined Pokemon. Can the changed interactions from a high Speed stat contribute to being a successful wall regardless of a lack of investment? If so, how? When might a Pokemon aim to focus on Speed investment over bulk?

As mentioned, this particular pokemon is able to outspeed a substantial number of pokemon in its native metagame even without Speed investment. In a faster meta this will be harder, but it could still be tailored to outspeed specific key threats with no or little investment. Alternatively it could be given better natural bulk allowing it to invest more in speed.



Speed is an incredibly powerful stat, and we need to consider that. It will inevitably interact with offense and defense simultaneously, regardless of how much we fine tune our build. As such, it's really important to consider the fine line we tread with balancing them. How offensive would our build need to be in order to beat our intended targets 1v1? Is offensive potency even a bad thing for a successful CAP 33? Is it possibly even necessary?

Flipped Drifblim's offensive stats are so abysmal that it completely avoids treading that fine line. It is very passive so its success completely depends on its utility and ability to road block specific physical attackers, suggesting that offensive potency is not mandatory. Giving our CAP mon some offensive pressure as an alternative route to success is obviously an option, but where to draw the line on what is too much is not a question that can be answered by looking at Drifblim.

 

[ausma]

Hi everyone, thanks for your amazing answers and discussion points. I believe we're at a point where we now better understand the dynamic Speed has on our role, as well as the general "goals" regarding how we can achieve success with this build.

It's pretty agreed upon that Speed most certainly will contribute to our success as a wall, in addition to how well we can respond to the Pokemon we want to check. There has been a lot of discussion on how having the ability to always be able to act at least once in a 1v1 exchange--even when we switch in on the turn prior--can enable pressure such that we are able to either force opposing threats into a disadvantageous position by being able to make guaranteed progress/consistently heal off damage, or simply defuse them with options like Encore, Haze, or status that greatly benefit our survivability from being able to be executed before the opponent's move. A high Speed tier can also lead to more forced switches since we are able to threaten the opponent without them being able to pressure us before we make a move, and can potentially lead to us being able to dish out general purpose utility moves more easily.

Because of this, it seems fairly agreed upon that Speed is extremely worthwhile to invest EVs into due to how valuable these changed interactions can be in consistently defusing offensive threats and enabling progress. With a high Speed stat, our effective bulk increases regardless of investment due to how relevant it can be to apply guaranteed pressure and safely recover into a greater range of offensive matchups, especially if we have access to utility moves that debuff the opponent. However the caveat of this, from what I gather, is that this is only really desirable if our Speed tier allows us to actually outspeed enough Pokemon such that we can consistently reap the rewards of these interactions on a game-to-game basis. A lower base Speed stat will most likely mean that investing into it will provide diminishing returns compared to raw bulk if investing into Speed means we don't outspeed things anyway.

In regards to offense, it seems near unanimous that the sweet spot of offense is enough to beat our desired targets 1v1, but not anything that will allow us to reach consistent damage-dealing territory. The point where we would want to start investing into offense via items or EVs is where we start to tread away from being a fast wall and instead more of an offensive Pokemon with great bulk. However, even then, it also seems serviceable offense might not even be all that necessary if we have powerful utility moves that defuse offensive Pokemon easily anyway, such as Encore or status. Either way, we will want to steer clear of anything beyond serviceable at best when it comes to damage output.

___

My personal takeaway from this first batch of questions is that our success as a fast wall will depend on how well we are able to take advantage of these interactions, and how often they will come into play via our Speed tier. I want to focus on this just a bit more before we finally move onto the next stage of the process, and hopefully streamline a plan a bit before we start diving beyond assessment.

First and foremost, I want to discuss the process structure. I feel pretty certain that I want to keep the primary process order the same as standard protocol. With our role already pre-established by the concept, typing is, imo, one of the most defining traits CAP 33 will have that contributes to how much it will successfully operate as a wall regardless of Speed, and our Ability will help us hone in a bit more before we start fleshing out our kit and final stat spread.

The only thing I personally am unsure of, though, is where to put Threat Discussion. All of our Typing, Ability, and Defining Moves will be greatly influencing the Pokemon we will have weak and strong matchups against, with Defining Moves being generally more applicable to a greater range of matchups, so I personally am more partial to doing it after Ability and before Defining Moves. However, I think there's an argument to be made to have it instead right after Typing or Defining Moves. Do you believe the standard process order/my placement of Threat Discussion is fine? If not, what would you suggest instead, and why?

Second, I want to address the Speed tier and the potency of fast walls. This was a bit of an uncertain discussion that's gone back and forth on the Discord, and before we move along I want to discuss the potential strength of the concept due to how the strength of these changed interactions Speed enables is agreed upon to be gamechanging. At what point are a certain Speed tier and resources too much for a wall? What factors can contribute to a fast wall being potentially too influential or too much to break? How about the other way around?

The last thing I want to bring a bit more focus to is the chemistry of general offense and utility on a moveset, due to the rather deep discussion had both on the thread and over the CAP Discord regarding the application of utility over direct offensive pressure. There are examples of fast walls that use more than one offensive moves to apply pressure (such as Mega Latias), but also some that instead go all in on utility and longevity to succeed in a 1v1 context anyway (such as Scream Tail). Is the idea of more moveslots being dedicated to utility more valuable than utilizing STABs and/or good coverage? Are there situations where we would want more than one offensive move to succeed at being a fast wall over more utility?

___

Because our Typing TL is out of commission for a few days and I'm moving back to college soon, I intend for the rest of Concept Assessment as a whole to last loosely about 48 hours, or possibly to the weekend if things get extra busy. Don't hesitate to give your thoughts on how we should approach the concept as a whole as we wrap this up, as I'm completely open to any and all ideas!

 

[Amamama]

Do you believe the standard process order/my placement of Threat Discussion is fine? If not, what would you suggest instead, and why?

I don’t think there’s any reason to deviate from standard process order. Fast threats will come up during typing ability and stats discussion anyway and defining threats will largely have the most impact on stats. Defining threats too soon risks railroading typing abilities and defining moves imo.

At what point are a certain Speed tier and resources too much for a wall? What factors can contribute to a fast wall being potentially too influential or too much to break?

If a defensive Mon is capable of checking any fast attacker throughout an entire game and achieve meaningful progress vs other defensive Pokémon it risks being overbearing.
Most Walls function best within a defensive core that fixes existing weaknesses with partners in that core. Designing a good defensive Mon doesn’t mean that it needs to beat any offensive Mon. This is especially true if said defensive Mon can outspeed and maybe even cripple the largest portion of
the metagame.
I think it’s generally harder to break a wall than to break an offensive Mon (see OUs ban history) so I don’t think we need to be overly cautious of making this Mon „annoying“ to play against with an offensive team. We should however be very mindful of how much offensive presence we allow additionally.

Is the idea of more moveslots being dedicated to utility more valuable than utilizing STABs and/or good coverage? Are there situations where we would want more than one offensive move to succeed at being a fast wall over more utility?

I don’t think the definition of a wall necessarily implies a lot of utility.
How many attacking moves we need might depend on our typing our attacking stat and our matchup into the threats list we decide on.
In general we often see Walls running utility over coverage simply bc their damage output is weak.
But a wall first and foremost is a Pokémon that is capable of denying the opponent progress through its defensive prowess alone - meaning through its stats, typing and ability to recover damage.
I guess there is a fine line between a two or even three attacks wall and a tank and low offensive stats are more likely to make utility more valuable.
But walls with three attacks and a recovery move exist.
SS Zapdos is largely used as a defensive Mon capable of walling several different offensive threats its only utility being its ability to spread status.
Slowking variants have run two or more attacks alongside slack-off before.
Life Orb Clefable still functions as a defensive piece, as does Bolt Beam or even Calm mind Latios.
Mandibuzz often runs three attacking moves (granted most of them also have utility)
Alll in all I don’t think the success of this concept is tied to how many utility moves we run.
A wall can be a wall even with three attacks and recovery.