CAP 33 - Part 10 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[quziel]

CAP 33 So Far

Please pay very close attention to kenn's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Fully Banned Abilities group

Arena Trap
As One
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Beads Of Ruin
Beast Boost *
Chilling Neigh
Commander
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Dragon's Maw
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Grim Neigh
Gulp Missile
Hadron Engine
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Orichalcum Pulse
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protosynthesis *
Quark Drive *
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Sword Of Ruin
Tablets Of Ruin
Teravolt
Transistor
Turboblaze
Unseen Fist
Vessel Of Ruin
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode
Zero To Hero

* These abilities will only be unbanned on a concept which is based around this ability - Such as an Ultra Beast or Paradox Pokemon

Soft Banned Abilities group

These abilities are banned by default and should not be discussed barring exceptional cases. If you believe one of these abilities should be considered, you can make a post trying to explain why an exception is warranted in this specific case and if both the TL and Ability Leader agree, it will be allowed. If the TLT disagrees with the unbanning proposal, they should be considered fully banned and should not be further discussed.

Bulletproof
Color Change*
Defeatist
Dry Skin
Earth Eater
Flash Fire
Fur Coat
Good As Gold
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Libero*
Levitate
Lightning Rod
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Magnet Pull
Mimicry*
Motor Drive
Parental Bond
Protean*
Pure Power
Purifying Salt
Regenerator
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stall
Storm Drain
Truant
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Water Bubble
Well Baked Body
Wind Rider

*These abilities can only be considered for an unban if the Ability stage is done before typing.

Secondary Ability ban group

Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Supreme Overlord
Toxic Debris
Triage

Flavor ability only ban group

Ball Fetch
Battery
Costar
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy

-----

Primary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + flavor ability-only group

Secondary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + secondary ability group + flavor ability-only group

Flavor Ability banlist

Primary ability group + secondary ability group

-----

Ability banlist PRC threads:

• US/UM: http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7391668
• SW/SH: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3659245/
• S/V: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3715273/

I'll hand it over to kenn now for the first post. Enjoy the stage.

 

[kenn]

Hey everybody! So now that we have the winning art from the amazing Yokaiju it is time to dive back into the next competitive step of the process with a look into a secondary ability for our lovely CAP!

While we aren't gonna get directly into suggesting what could potentially work as a secondary ability, we need to answer some questions that can determine what direction we wanna go even in the case of if a secondary ability is necessary! So without further ado...

1. Do we think that Multiscale is sufficient enough for CAP 33, with its current build, to do its job or is there other niches that it would prefer to explore? If so, what niches? This question is fairly straightforward as it aims to determine if we think CAP 33 would love or even necessitate a secondary ability to excel at its job of being a "fast wall".

2. Any runner-ups from the primary ability discussion that may be appealing at this point in the process? If so, which ones and why? Some abilities from the primary discussion such as Rough Skin and Pressure could warrant a revisit and potentially a place in the secondary ability discussion.

3. What downsides does Multiscale have that potentially would not allow CAP 33 to fulfill the concept? Again this question is pretty straightforward. If we think a secondary is worth it, I want discussion on why Multiscale may have flaws in fulfilling the concept of a "fast wall".

I'll give us a good chunk of time to discuss these 3 questions and hopefully determine if we feel the need...the need for speed for a secondary!

 

[IronTemplar]

Rough Skin I could absolutely see, though it doesn't achieve nearly as much as its main ability. Mold Breaker would be neat, but it doesn't have a high enough special attack stat imo to benefit bypassing a Dry Skin or Storm Drain (DEFINITELY has the speed though)

 

[quziel]

1)
The question of sufficient is always a bit odd to me w.r.t. secondary abilities. We are absolutely capable of running Multiscale and not really feeling the loss of not having a secondary, for examples look at well, Dnite and Lugia. That said, I think giving a secondary could lead to a more interesting pokemon overall, and probably let us increase the variety of teams the CAP fits onto. In terms of concept relevance, Multiscale fits well on a wall that gets in, and wants to stay in for a fair bit, so there's definitely room for an ability that focuses more on the defensive pivot aspects of walling.

2)
Rough Skin is the obvious answer here, esp when talking about defensive pivot aspects of "Fast Wall". Its fairly opposite of Multi, where multi wants to stay in and heal up, Rough Skin wants us to just get in, and use our bulk to literally cripple u-turn users. Personally don't really like any of the other runners up in the context that we already have multi. Mold Breaker and Serene Grace feel like they wanna play sorta similar, Pressure seems wholly outclassed, and Filter also feels quite outclassed.

3)
Multi really hates having to take repeated amounts of small chip over a game, as it needs to spend a PP on recovery to get its shield back up, which really doesn't do well when you're trying to answer U-turn, or just swapping in repeatedly. Its an ability that again, really wants to just hit and be hit back by strong threats. Knock Off is also an obvious weakness of Multi, as it removes our shield if hazards are up. This directly harms our matchup into several of the tier's defensive mons that we'd otherwise do fine into (Tusk, Argh).

 

[Cyril tbh]

As someone who is very interested in CAP 33s ability to play a pivoting game rather than a hard wall only, I think Intimidate could work very well on it, but it might be a bit too good when comparing to other secondary abilities. Other than that, Rain Dish strikes me as a great secondary, letting it thrive in rain while still maintaining its role WIP

 

[Ayecrusher King]

Of the Abilities that were previously mentioned, Rough Skin and Pressure are understandable options; to parallel Cyril's suggestion above, if Misty Surge wasn't as popular, perhaps we could instead have Hydration instead for an option for enable semi-status immunity, which is something all walls would prefer to have as an option?

 

[Reviloja753]

The only slightly usable option from Primary discussion, and overall tbh, is Rough Skin. Anything else and you’re never running it over Multiscale, especially some of these D-tier suggestions like Rain Dish and Hydration. If it’s not Rough Skin, you might as well go for a flavor ability, cause at that point you’re getting zero competitive impact whatsoever. I don’t even think Pressure is an ability you’d realistically run over Multiscale tbh.

Regarding the first and third questions, as quziel points out, a secondary ability, if done well, lets us explore more of this concept than Multiscale alone, and I think there is some discussion to be had here. Multiscale means we are constantly focused on healing up and avoiding chip damage, so an ability that allows CAP33 to not care as much about chip while still exploring the idea of being a fast wall would be ideal; Rough Skin fits this perfectly for me, but I’ll leave it there for now.

 

[Brambane]

This is a good case for secondary ability because:

1. Multiscale is more pro-concept than it is pro-typing; as a Fairy-type, switching into moves like U-turn, Knock Off, Ceaseless Edge, Circle Throw (aka just Arghonaut in general) is a notable part of the typing's defensive strength. Multiscale is not very synergistic with this, especially U-turn and Circle Throw which allow Big Wave to be punished later.

2. Multiscale is not the sole expression of the concept. This was never an ability centric concept, so allowing Big Wave to utilize its stats spread in more than one way is perfectly in-line with our goals.

Rough Skin and Serene Grace (which technically didn't make the slate but had a lot of discussion and traction on discord/thread and was even suggested specifically for secondary) are both excellent for reasons already mentioned in the primary ability thread. Allow Big Wave to play more proactively and lay on some pressure, as oppose to the generally reactive nature of Multiscale (without set-up.)

Pressure is probably too slow and too situational to gain traction; if we were more inherently bulky then sure, stat limits left bulk inevitably fine but not excellent. Filter is generically good, I would prefer to see an damage reduction ability that is a lot more targeted for MU we are very close to winning than Filter buffering MU's we should lose, i.e. Purifying Salt meaning we don't lose to Hex Dragapult, stuff like that. Mold Breaker is bad, don't bother.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Our entire concept revolves around checking things with Multiscale.

Brambane beat me to mentioning our core strength is lost when switching into random matchup-control or utility moves; but I had come here to point out how that's a unique and interesting weakness among Fairy-types. Having the potential to check and halt a list of Pokemon that other fast walls or fast Fairies cannot, while also being wary of certain moves that those competitors can more safely absorb, is a huge help in sculpting a unique Pokemon in the metagame.

I'm in favor of strongly binding CAP 33 to both the strengths and the pitfalls of Multiscale.

 

[snake]

2. Multiscale is not the sole expression of the concept. This was never an ability centric concept, so allowing Big Wave to utilize its stats spread in more than one way is perfectly in-line with our goals.

I agree with this sentiment. Multiscale is certainly a good implementation of the concept, and I still think there's room for a secondary ability at a similar power level to Multiscale. The interactions between Rough Skin and our typing, which I outlined in one of my posts in Primary Ability Discussion, still applies here, but add in the much larger Knock Off and Flip Turn distribution from Teal Mask. CAP33's 80 / 111 bulk makes Rough Skin an excellent secondary: in exchange for the ability to tank the strongest of hits, CAP33 can punish the weaker hits that CAP33 excels at switching into.

 

[shnowshner]

rough skin is without question our strongest option and one i very much want to pursue with 33

obv our typing lets us punish various weaker moves like knocks and uturns but its so much more than that, being able to pressure mons without needing to click a single button is fantastic. many phyiscal mons won't want to deal with us unless their attacks ignore rough skin or they can one-shot us. rs 33 also just dumpsters hamurott, sash lead variants can't hit us with edge and preserve sash. ig one downside might be that they get the layer and then immediately KO for a free switch but w/e. i think these abilities play off one another quite well in a meta sense, you don't want your phys mons to take damage so you might switch manually instead of turn, but if its multiscale then you would want to chip it as much as possible. its neat. please support rough skin.

 

[viol and bass]

I'm down with Rough Skin at this point. I like that it kinda flips Multiscale's distaste for resisted chip moves like knock, u-turn, circle throw, etc. on its head. Even just denying hazard removal when a mon spins on you and dies from Rough Skin is a cool interaction. I like that Rough Skin allows you to play more freely with this mon.

I was a big proponent of Pressure previously, but we have stats now, and another powerful ability to contend with. It would not realistically see use over Multiscale.

 

[Cheryl.]

Rough Skin allows CAP 33 to play a lot more proactively in using its excellent typing and good physical bulk to switch into and tank attacks compared to Multiscale. Multiscale is obviously still amazing, but Rough Skin can make this thing one of the best physical checks in the tier which has a lot of U-turn and Knock spam atm. I agree with the sentiment that this would be a great option on par with Multiscale and that would make this mon's niche a bit more interesting, all the while still fulfilling that concept of being a fast wall.

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Hemogoblin Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 141-166 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (bro is taking 12-24% chip and can't even 2HKO while boosted we fixed the meta!!!)

 

[Samirsin]

I fully support Rough Skin, if only we could change the name.
Help in the pivoting game is such a boost, and it basically becomes an Hemogoblin counter.

 

[Ehmcee]

I fully support Rough Skin, if only we could change the name.

Iron Barbs is right there smh

 

[boomp]

1. Do we think that Multiscale is sufficient enough for CAP 33, with its current build, to do its job or is there other niches that it would prefer to explore? If so, what niches?

I see no niche in Multiscale as CAP 33 stats now is build to play around it. CAP 33 will do its job pretty well.

3. What downsides does Multiscale have that potentially would not allow CAP 33 to fulfill the concept?

Chip damage honestly, you wouldn't be able to use Multiscale if you keep getting worn down by hazards or even status infliction like burn or poison. Also Knock Off is really scary for CAP 33 where it risk losing its Heavy Duty Boots and just deem Multiscale useless if we cant keep hazards away. Knock Off mons that come to mind that would hurt Multiscale is Gliscor, Great Tusk and Meowscarada.

 

[Pipotchi]

Rough Skin is fun as long as you accept that its probably a better ability than Multiscale on the current chassis. It just aligns with 50% recovery, lack of offensive pressure and fairy typing to an insane level. I was originally expecting the mon to have less usable defenses but with 80/110/100 its more than capable of forgoing Multiscale and still being great defensively.

 

[LouisCyphre]

I don't mean to harp on it more, but i'm not really sure how Rough Skin synergizes with our speed. It's true that we can outspeed and weaken our attackers prior to being hit with a contact hit, but that's true of any defensive ability available to us.

Primarily, Rough Skin makes progress when we switch in to U-turns and the like with our good typing; people will only click contact moves into an on-field 33 on a read or when pressed. That doesn't seem to do anything unique involving speed.

Rough Skin is the strongest alternative to Multiscale previously discussed, but it feels like a pick for beating mons that users want beaten, rather than for walling Pokemkn from our threat assessment in a uniquely Speed-driven way.

Serene Grace would have been my pick for back-up ability, but it simply doesn't have the chops to compete with Multiscale. I think we're set on our course. Sometimes you get it right the first time!

 

[Reviloja753]

Rough Skin is fun as long as you accept that its probably a better ability than Multiscale on the current chassis. It just aligns with 50% recovery, lack of offensive pressure and fairy typing to an insane level. I was originally expecting the mon to have less usable defenses but with 80/110/100 its more than capable of forgoing Multiscale and still being great defensively.

I don't fully agree with you, though I think there is a kernel of truth within; as Brambane pointed out, Rough Skin being used over Multiscale means being less effective defensively (still effective, but less so) in exchange for being able to better handle chip and make more progress against what you do wall.

 

[Samirsin]

I also want to show my support for Sticky Hold. Being able to never lose our item (Leftovers, Heavy-Duty Boots, Assault Vest etc.) is a very coveted niche not many Pokémon have. It may not overpower Multiscale, but can give the Pokémon a nice twist.

 

[Pipotchi]

I don't mean to harp on it more, but i'm not really sure how Rough Skin synergizes with our speed. It's true that we can outspeed and weaken our attackers prior to being hit with a contact hit, but that's true of any defensive ability available to us.

Primarily, Rough Skin makes progress when we switch in to U-turns and the like with our good typing; people will only click contact moves into an on-field 33 on a read or when pressed. That doesn't seem to do anything unique involving speed.

Rough Skin is the strongest alternative to Multiscale previously discussed, but it feels like a pick for beating mons that users want beaten, rather than for walling Pokemkn from our threat assessment in a uniquely Speed-driven way.

Serene Grace would have been my pick for back-up ability, but it simply doesn't have the chops to compete with Multiscale. I think we're set on our course. Sometimes you get it right the first time!

I wrote this in the original primary discussion but I think it aligns with "fast wall" stuff. the ability to switch in and chip an opponent AND outspeed it for more damage can really lead to good blanket revenge killing options which is really in line with being a fast wall for me- without just piling on the damage with raw offensive stats. I felt like a fast wall can take a 80% hit for instance to finish off a huge threat with chip damage, and still come back from that later in the game thanks to its speed allowing it to find a nice turn to recover hp.
it doesnt interact in the same way as multiscale but it slots nicely into fast walling by sourcing damage elsewhere that allows low offenses and high speed to reliably force out offensive threats.

edit: Pressure was mentioned in earlier discussions but obviously this is not a secondary that would see play. I dont really get what the goal is for secondary anymore because it used to be that something like Serene Grace on Raja, Intimidate Hemo or Compound Eyes on Miasmaw was the ideal- something that would never see play realistically but had some kind of concept exploration that the original didnt. But now it seems like everyone's intention is to rival Multiscale only? Shrug. If the former still applies then something like Pressure is definitely concept-relevant as it was in Primary discussions.

 

[shnowshner]

pissed off rn i went to bed hoping to get 7-8 hours woke up in half that instead

not gonna beat around the bush rough skin is better than multiscale rn, it was a bit of a slow realization especially after dlc but the value of getting chip off and making real progress against mons (many of which lack their own recovery) is hugely beneficial without the stipulation of needing full HP (difficult and awkward!) to extract use from. people have already explained why rough skin fits our mon and works well alpngside fast speed so i won't go into more detail on that.

so why is secondary flipping from "technically useful ability that toys with concept but is ultimately without purpose" to "ability that rivals if not outshines primary" for cap 33? to me the main reason is there's actually a unified effort to have one on cap 33. i feel like we've been spoiled the past few years with caps that have massively influential abilities that define pretty explicitly how that cap plays, and a secondary just doesn't make sense for most of them, especially for stuff like chromera or venomicon where a second ability doesn't play nice with the goals of the concept. but many users want a secondary ability because many mons have secondaries and more options are cool and this means x thing for y concept! so we tend to end up with a secondary so long as the no secondary crowd is more on the "secondary won't be used" side versus "secondary is bad optics for this cap."

what's different here is multiscale is not nearly as defining of an ability as it sounds like it'd be on paper. most of our defensive utility looks to come from our typing and stats first, with multiscale serving as either a safety net against scary matchups or a means to bully particular mons into forfeiting early. it's the most obvious pro-concept ability as we get plenty more out of it when we can outspeed and heal back to full, but it's also not terribly pro-cap 33 atm. rough skin is more subtle in how it interacts with a fast wall, but does a lot more for 33 within the current landscape. like compare wave to other recent caps and the difference is huge. the mon is probably useable without an ability (not that we need to know!) and still fulfills the concept nicely because it is indeed fast and a wall. multiscale and rough skin both make sense in the context of serving a fast wall differently than a slow one, it's just that while multiscale leans into "really good when we are fast," rough skin is more "really good when we are wall."

i also want to go on record that our secondary being ostensibly better than the primary here shouldn't be treated as a indication of failure during primary. part of this is that multiscale was made a lot weaker following the teal mask's new additions and ou's subsequent tiering decision of axing baxcalibur, things we didn't have a say in. the other reason is that our aim isn't to preserve the niche of our primary ability, it's to fulfill the concept in an effective manner. our secondary being competitive with the primary is problematic when the primary fundamentally shapes how the mon is played, most obvious with hemogoblin but also very applicable to other recent caps like chromera and saharaja, the former not having a secondary because one would likely undermine the design choices we made regarding color change for its concept, and the latter's secondary practically needing the primary to be run 99% of the time in order to see any justifiable play (i.e. you aren't running serene grace over water absorb unless water absorb is so utterly obvious that you plan on taking advantage of opponents not even going for water moves in the first place, which at best is a gamble.) multiscale does influence how we play but that's largely for multiscale versus actually doing our job. there's many situations where multiscale won't be active and cap 33 is still fully capable of fast walling.

i think there's more to be said about what exactly primary and secondary ability should be but idt this is the time to really get into it and i should probably go sleep again lmao
tldr rough skin is really good and that's okay

 

[kenn]

Okay since discussion has been slowing down, I figured it was high time to give a 24 hour warning so we can wrap this step of the process up!

This step has been fairly short and sweet and therefore there will be a short and sweet slate but if there is anything else you wanna add whether it be support for abilities already mentioned or new ones you think would be useful then feel free to do so now!

 

[Docter_Peng99]

I am unsure what the secondary ability will be but I think it could maybe be storm drain? It is a giant wave so it makes sense but other than that I'm unsure. Oh... It's soft banned welp I have no other suggestions soooo don't consider this vote.

 

[Brambane]

I am going to add an ability for cotention, based on some Discord discussion.

There is a lot of truth to this point. Spikes has another really strong setter in CAP (Argh) which adds to its level of strength, even with our best removal (Libra) helping to offset it. As a grounded Pokemon, switching into Knock Off at any stage is pretty detrimental on Spike stacks teams; Rough Skin is at best a short term punish to the move. Still a fine ability, but if you are dancing around Knock Off anyways, it is more of compensation for switching into the move than anything else. You still have to contend with the Spikes going up threatening you later, in addition to Rocks and whatever.

As such, the logical foil to Multiscale in the world where we want to avoid Knock Off is Sticky Hold. Now by itself Sticky Hold doesn't punish Knock Off per se, but with our combination of Speed and moves we have discussed, we can turn the tables. The threat of a fast Encore immediately applies pressure to anything slower we catch on the switch with Knock Off.

So while Multiscale is the high reward, sweep stopping ability, the consistent counterpart into slower fatter teams could very well could be Sticky Hold, which makes CAP33 basically the de facto switchin to Arghonaut for teams; a useful niche for sure. It plays into the metagame nicely, where Boots are king and keeping your boots on has potential high long-term value as a defensive Pokemon.