CAP 33 - Part 12 - Moveset Discussion

[Dogfish44]

CAP 33 So Far!

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be five kinds of posts in the thread:

• Moveset Archetype Submissions
• Moveset Submissions
• Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
• General Commentary
• Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates

This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:

1. People post moveset archetypes.
2. People post moveset submissions for these archetypes in a prescribed format (see below)
3. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
4. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
5. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
6. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)

By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:

• The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
• The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community

Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Legendary Signature Moves

Aeroblast
Astral Barrage
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dynamax Cannon
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glacial Lance
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Jungle Healing
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Surging Strikes
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create
Wicked Blow

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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
• Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill, and Aegislash extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.

Copyable template

[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]

Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.

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Gen VII example

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Earth Power / Energy Ball
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest / Timid

• Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
• Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut very hard.
• Ice Beam complements Thunderbolt very well, allowing it to hit Ground-types like Garchomp.
• Earth Power lets CAP X hit Heatran and Mega Crucibelle very hard, while Energy Ball lets it hit Gastrodon and Mega Swampert harder.
• Sheer Force powers up CAP X's main moves.
• Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
• Modest is preferred for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed Gyarados and Heatran before boosting.

 

[Scizivire]

Heyo it's me again. Now that we know our stats and secondary ability, it's time to take a proper look at the sets CAP33 will be most likely to run in the current meta. Before we get into the sets themselves though, I want to do a little housekeeping (I don't want to spend too much time on this, just a day or so) regarding the defining moves list we constructed earlier-- trim some stuff and perhaps make additions.

I'm taking the liberty to make a few small changes to the defining moves list in light of our statline and moves quziel used in his stat submission post. I trimmed the physical moves and shuffled some moves between required and optional. The list as I envision it now looks like this:

Defining Moves

Required Moves:

• Moonblast
• Surf
• Scald
• 50% Recovery Move
• Thunder Wave
• Encore
• Haze

Optional Moves:

• Hydro Pump
• Ice Coverage Moves
• Ground Coverage Moves
• Strength Sap
• Knock Off
• Will-o-Wisp
• Glare / Nuzzle
• Taunt

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So for this housekeeping thing, I basically want to ask a few easy questions for you guys to answer. We won't dwell on this too long, but I feel like it will streamline the rest of the stage. With that said, these are the questions:

1. Does the above list accurately represent what we want to go for moveset-wise?
Basically I'd like to know if the defining moves list presented above is in line with what we're expecting to run on the sets posted in this thread. I roughly followed quziel's chosen moves in the stat submission stage because I agree that it is a viable direction to go, though he did not touch on most other optional moves so I'd like to know whether these should still be considered here, so I'd still like some input on whether these should still be considered.

2. Now that we know our base stats and secondary ability, are there any moves that should be added or removed from the list because their viability changed?
I've already made some changes, but if there are any other moves that should be added or removed because our statline or secondary ability alters the viability of the move, please discuss it here so I can gauge opinions.

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So let's get this rolling! Again, I only really want to spend one day on this, and we'll open up set suggestions after that. Look forward to it!

 

[Samirsin]

Now that we know our base stats and secondary ability, are there any moves that should be added or removed from the list because their viability changed?
I now fear that CAP 33 may be used offensively with moves like Hydro Pump, basically changing our base concept. The same goes with coverage moves. We may think that everyone will build with wall potential in mind and with 0 evs in SpA, like quziel did in their sprite submission, but it may as well be used with max Special Attack and Speed for very offensive uses, leaving the concept behind. I would trade Moonblast with Dazzling Gleam and only Dazzling Gleam, like Togekiss, for example, so that it still has lower offensive presence, but not as low as only having Draining Kiss, for example. Setup moves should not be accepted (at least offensive ones).

Using the stats HP: 80 / Atk: 32 / Def: 111 / SpA: 88 / SpD: 99 / Spe: 125 :
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 350-414 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 174-205 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 320-380 (93.5 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (<---further boosted with pixie plate or wise lenses, for example)
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Dazzling Gleam vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 270-320 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[snake]

2. Now that we know our base stats and secondary ability, are there any moves that should be added or removed from the list because their viability changed?

I'd like to express some caution for allowing both Scald and Knock Off. This combination (because it's so effective) would probably constrain CAP33's moveset flexibility, which defeats the purpose of having the long list of defining moves. With CAP33's other traits, I don't think having Scald + Knock Off is required by any means. It's worth noting that quziel put this stat spread together with with Scald in mind, but not with Knock Off. I don't think I have a preference on which of the two moves I would pick at the present.

Now that we know our base stats and secondary ability, are there any moves that should be added or removed from the list because their viability changed?
I now fear that CAP 33 may be used offensively with moves like Hydro Pump, basically changing our base concept. The same goes with coverage moves. We may think that everyone will build with wall potential in mind and with 0 evs in SpA, like quziel did in their sprite submission, but it may as well be used with max Special Attack and Speed for very offensive uses, leaving the concept behind. I would trade Moonblast with Dazzling Gleam and only Dazzling Gleam, like Togekiss, for example, so that it still has lower offensive presence, but not as low as only having Draining Kiss, for example. Setup moves should not be accepted (at least offensive ones).

Using the stats HP: 80 / Atk: 32 / Def: 111 / SpA: 88 / SpD: 99 / Spe: 125 :
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Hemogoblin: 350-414 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 174-205 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 320-380 (93.5 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (<---further boosted with pixie plate or wise lenses, for example)
252+ SpA Tapu Fini Dazzling Gleam vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 270-320 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calculations don't really showcase your argument very well. If CAP33 can use offensive investment to dispatch Pokemon that it's supposed to have an at least decent match up with, then I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. What would be concerning is if an offensive CAP33 set were able to break through bulky checks like Venomicon or Slowking.

252 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venomicon: 108-127 (28.8 - 33.9%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowking-Galar: 127-150 (32.2 - 38%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 69-82 (17.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO

In my opinion, if someone wants to make the sacrifices to EVs and moveset (or potentially nature and item, I guess) to run offensive investment to net some KOes on targets CAP33 is meant to beat, I think it's ok. For example, by running Hydro Pump, CAP33 is probably not running Scald. If we want to be absolutely sure that we don't allow CAP33 to run a non-wall set, then we should not give CAP33 the tools to run an effective Choice Specs set (i.e. definitely Trick, maybe pivoting, possibly the Ground-type coverage). Past that though, I think the flexibility to run some special attack investment is fairly interesting.

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

Before the questions, I would like clarifications what optional defining moves from the Stat Spread poll means.

As a reminder, defining moves being listed above does not mean that they will be given during the movepool stage; rather that the stat spread creator has identified them as reasons that their spread may be weaker than its competition in some area, or as being important for calculations done when creating the stat spread.

By this definition, Scald and Haze should not be in the [Required Moves] section.
Maybe the optional defining moves have little impact whether they are considered in this stage, but between the penalties given to certain optional moves and the list being prominent on the voting slate, I thought we would at least vote for certain optional defining moves to not be included (my vote was partially influenced by the lack of Knock Off and Strength Sap).

1. Does the above list accurately represent what we want to go for moveset-wise?
2. Now that we know our base stats and secondary ability, are there any moves that should be added or removed from the list because their viability changed?
Again I will bring up that including Will-o-Wisp and Strength Sap by default makes us a physical wall, and Scald is a large deterrent. There is no combination of a fast Pokemon with Recovery and one of these moves. I don't see this as necessarily bad (and I think this point got weaker because Multiscale is no longer guaranteed to prevent a 1HKO), but it is something to keep in mind.

 

[Samirsin]

I do have some issues with two moves, one in Optional Moves and other that will probably be mentioned later.
CAP 33 does not need Knock Off, it will be similar to what happened to Hemogoblin, no good switch-ins if wave can take out your item. It is extremely spammable and has no drawbacks.
And also, Flip Turn should not be considered. As snake said before, pivoting moves could allow wave to use Specs, for example, deterring it from our original concept.

 

[Amamama]

1. Does the above list accurately represent what we want to go for moveset-wise?

Any of the moves on both required and optional lists certainly have a chance of seeing use on a Moveset. All of these tools work well with the toolkit(s) that 33 has acquired so far.
I don’t think any of the options on its own risks overpowering this Pokémon.
In particular I don’t think, that coverage moves are a big issue, as even with specs and SE coverage you end up at around doing measly 55% max to SpD Book or around the same benchmark to phys def Slowking-G, making it a lure to break past book at best, that easily can be scouted, while coming with huge opportunity costs in the item slot and loss of longevity.
Sure the speed tier could allow this Mon to act as a cleaner with its solid dual stab, but honestly that seems more like a result of the speed stat, than any coverage we can give. Outspeeding the opponent in the endgame will always be good to clean house.
And tbh I don’t even think having a more offensive set is telling anything about how well we achieved the concept as long as defensive sets are the main focus. Zapdos is one of the Mons with the longest career as defensive Pokémon in Pokémon and it’s seen running very offensive sets in several generations.

That said I think there are move combinations that feel like they could end up very annoying fairly easily.
For all sets this would be Scald+Knock Off (others have explained well why).
Additionally I think Strenght Sap + Encore + Scald on rough skin and Encore + Glare/Nuzzle look incredibly annoying to play around, even if they might be far from optimal as far as Movesets go.

I think Knock Off has proven itself to easily be the most „this Mon is broken now“ move in CAP history and given the current Hazard heavy Meta, I’d rather not see the move.
Seeing how Encore is unanimously thought to be a key component on this Mon id also like to see Strength Sap cut.
I’m on the fence on wether to want Glare/Nuzzle go as I believe that paralysis will be the easiest catch all inclusion on the moveset, giving 33 utility against almost all mons this Pokémon is supposed to check and guaranteed status vs the lack of accuracy of Twave is hell of a selling point.
At the same time Glare is an incredibly unbalanced option, that’s super hard to switch into and given the nature of the Stats and typing, this Mon already is going to be awkward to make progress against.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

1. Does the above list accurately represent what we want to go for moveset-wise?

I don't really have a whole lot to say in regards to this question, but just to give a quick answer, I would say so.

2. Now that we know our base stats and secondary ability, are there any moves that should be added or removed from the list because their viability changed?

I would like to see the following moves removed

Knock Off: While I think Scald by itself is probably fine, I do not like the idea of having it together with Knock Off at all. Between the two, I think if we were to remove one of them, my pick would be Knock Off. Given how heavy the current metagame is on hazards, I'm questioning how healthy this move would be here even when considering it in isolation from Scald, and I personally think that the moveslot compression that Scald gives us is just too valuable to give up in terms of both making a viable Pokemon and expanding our options.
Strength Sap: I think that our spread's HP is too high for us to really get a whole lot of value out of this move. Also, pretty much all of the discussion about why this move might not be the greatest from the Defining Moves thread carries over to here.

 

[snake]

Quick post: To build a little off what Amamama is saying, I think Glare/Nuzzle need a little more scrutiny, especially when Thunder Wave is the standard paralysis move. My view on CAP33, with the totality of its traits so far, is that it really only needs one of Scald, Glare/Nuzzle, or Knock Off, powerful utility moves that are guaranteed to make progress. With just one of these moves, along with the rest of the defining moves list, I think CAP33 will be in a good position to succeed. I'm wary of allowing any combination of two of those three moves, especially when some more standard pseudo-alternatives like Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave are available, and with Encore listed as a defining move.

If I had to make a choice between the above options, I think I'd prefer either Scald or Glare/Nuzzle, rather than Knock Off. With Knock Off distribution increasing with DLC1, this move is much less critical in CAP33's moveset, and I think we can make a good final product without crutching on Knock Off for CAP33 to succeed.

 

[shnowshner]

Hydro Pump: I don't see Hydro being overbearing on its own. Offensive sets need way more than a stronger STAB to function, and Hydro's 8 PP + imperfect accuracy makes us a lot less sustainable compared to Scald and Surf.
Ice Coverage Moves: Good coverage type but we need to have an open moveslot to use it, and dropping either STAB likely opens up a bad hole in the set.
Ground Coverage Moves: Feel pretty similar about Ice, offensive sets need more than just coverage to really work given our low power.
Strength Sap: Sap is really strong into a lot of mons when paired with Multiscale, but I'm not too big of a fan of it with our build. Pretty neutral about it.
Knock Off: Not necessary, even less so when Scald is required. Hazard game has regressed further down than ever before and we don't need to contribute to that. Move also breaks checks in general.
Will-o-Wisp: It's harmless but just feels silly here. Don't include.
Glare / Nuzzle: If Scald is our go-to I don't think we need another difficult to respond to status-inficting button. Leave Thunder Wave as the only option as it's the most exploitable.
Taunt: It's fine. We hype up Taunt a lot but rarely does it really come in to play. Encore is already great disruption, not sure how much we need this but it has uses, especially as a fast mon.

Sorry for bland formatting I typed this on my phone.

 

[Scizivire]

Hi everyone, I left this open for a bit more than 24 hours (oops) but I think we've pretty much come to an agreement as for the moves that should be required, optional or even banned from sets at this point. Here's where I'm at:

• Scald should not be allowed with Knock Off and Glare / Nuzzle because the combinations would be too potent and Knock Off in particular messes with our checks and counters long-term in this hazard-filled meta. Glare and Nuzzle are a bit more powerful than Thunder Wave as well, which might not be something we want to mess with. Therefore, all of these moves will be banned from movesets.
• Haze doesn't feel as defining to me as I originally thought, but it is still a very useful move for CAP33 so it should still be considered for this stage. I've decided to move Haze back to optional moves.
• Given that we have Scald as well as Thunder Wave, Will-o-Wisp feels a bit redundant to me. Strength Sap doesn't feel too great with our stat distribution either. I'm removing these moves from defining moves but I don't think we need to ban the move from movesets and movepools.
• Every other move in the optional moves category are also useful for CAP33 in some way, though by no means should they define the main set(s) we will be running and should probably be reserved for specific utility-based sets. Hydro Pump and coverage moves are not too strong to be meaningful even with full investment so they would be fine to include for sets that might want to catch certain mons off guard.

This leaves us with something like this:

Defining Moves

Required Moves:

• Moonblast
• Surf
• Scald
• 50% Recovery Move
• Thunder Wave
• Encore

Optional Moves:

• Hydro Pump
• Ice Coverage Moves
• Ground Coverage Moves
• Haze
• Taunt

Moves Banned From Movesets

• Knock Off
• Glare
• Nuzzle

--

So it is now time to open up moveset suggestions! We'll take a look at which sets CAP33 might viably run into the current meta, including the items, EV spreads, abilities and of course, the moves it will run. Given that our concept is to be a fast wall, I'm expecting our main sets to be mostly defensively-orientated with a lot of speed investment as well, but don't be afraid to submit sets that might serve as alternatives either! I'd like to stress that the defining moves list above should be used as a guideline-- you don't need to include every move in the required moves section on one set, though you should know that these moves will almost definitely be on the final movepool and are very likely to be used. The optionals are the same; they are examples of moves that are likely to be on the final movepool and are also viable options on sets, just not quite as defining for CAP33.

Please make sure to explain why you think your suggested set(s) work, as well as specify the details of the set. This is especially important if you want to work with very specific EV spreads or item choices that might affect damage calcs and such. If you feel like moves or items should be slashed on your set, you can include them and we can look at whether or not this is justified.

Any moves not in the defining or banned move lists you're uncertain on, feel free to ask me in the thread or on Discord (in the #cap channel or DMs). I'm thinking we should spend a week or so on this? Depending on how active the thread is. Happy posting!

 

[LOrd Fernado]

Name: Physically Defensive
Move 1: Surf / Scald
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Moonlight / Recover
Move 4: Taunt / Encore / Thunder Wave
Ability: Multiscale / Rough Skin
Item: Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

• This Pokemon is meant to be a defensive pain against common attackers like Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, and Walking Wake.
• Surf is a mandatory move, so no explanation needed here apart from it hitting common Pokemon like Great Tusk and Gliscor
• Moonblast is also mandatory but it helps covering it’s lack of SpDef EVs and threatens Pokemon like Great Tusk and Walking Wake
• Moonlight or Recover can be used here, no Shore Up because it doesn’t work flavour-wise at all
• Taunt and Encore were mandatory as well as a status spreading move. I chose Thunder Wave to cripple fast threats like Agility Waking Wake and Iron Moth, as well as Dragapult.
• Leftovers is used with Multiscale to take as minimal damage as possible in conjunction with high speed and its recovery move.
• Rocky Helmet is an alternative with Rough Skin to punish physical attackers like Zamazenta and Hemogoblin
• The EVs are used to make as much mixed bulk, with a respectable amount of Defense EVs.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Name: Haze
Move 1: Haze
Move 2: Scald / Hydro Pump
Move 3: Moonblast
Move 4: Recover / Moonlight
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 52 SpA / 208 Spe
Tera Type: Grass / Fire
Nature: Timid

• This set aims to be a solid check against many of the tier's most dangerous set up sweepers.
• Haze is the main crux of this set, as it gives CAP33 the ability to turn off stat boosts from opposing Pokemon.
• Scald is the main choice for Water-type STAB for its consistency and the ability to inflict burns, but Hydro Pump is an alternative as it gives CAP33 a fairly good chance of OHKOing offensive Cinderace.
• Recover is the primary choice for recovery due its consistency, but Moonlight is a valid alternative given the presecence of Sun in the metagame. However, going with Moonlight over Recover makes CAP33's matchups into Rain and Veil HO a lot worse.
• Multiscale was chosen as the ability due to its obvious synergy with Haze. Most notably, with Multiscale active, we avoid the 2HKO from are capable of switching in on Bullet Punch from +6 Cawmodore.
• Heavy-Duty Boots was chosen as the item because it is pretty much needed to preserve Multiscale in such a hazard heavy metagame.
• The given EV Spread allows CAP33 to outspeed Cinderace and always OHKO Iron Valiant with Moonblast, with the rest going into HP for obvious reasons.
• Tera Grass allows CAP33 to check Ogerpon-Wellspring after Terastallizing and significantly improves its matchup against Manaphy. Alternatively, Tera Fire is an option that allows CAP33 to serve as a consistent answer against Hemogoblin w/o Tera Blast Ground.

 

[Amamama]

Name: Physically Defensive
Move 1: Surf / Scald
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Moonlight / Recover
Move 4: Taunt / Encore / Thunder Wave
Ability: Multiscale / Rough Skin
Item: Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

• This Pokemon is meant to be a defensive pain against common attackers like Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, and Walking Wake.
• Surf is a mandatory move, so no explanation needed here apart from it hitting common Pokemon like Great Tusk and Gliscor
• Moonblast is also mandatory but it helps covering it’s lack of SpDef EVs and threatens Pokemon like Great Tusk and Walking Wake
• Moonlight or Recover can be used here, no Shore Up because it doesn’t work flavour-wise at all
• Taunt and Encore were mandatory as well as a status spreading move. I chose Thunder Wave to cripple fast threats like Agility Waking Wake and Iron Moth, as well as Dragapult.
• Leftovers is used with Multiscale to take as minimal damage as possible in conjunction with high speed and its recovery move.
• Rocky Helmet is an alternative with Rough Skin to punish physical attackers like Zamazenta and Hemogoblin
• The EVs are used to make as much mixed bulk, with a respectable amount of Defense EVs.

The hopefully standard set though I’d make Heavy Duty Boots the first item to use with Multiscale, as it guarantees Multiscale stays in tact.

To also contribute something other than a blurb:

Name: Physically Defensive Rough Skin


CAP33 @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Level: 100
Bold Nature
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Grass/Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 64 Spe
- Defog/Taunt/Thunderwave
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Moonlight

Let’s face it. The bulk is good enough that fully invested defensive sets are going to be really solid.
This set maximizes the physical bulk and in conjunction with Rough Skin looks to disrupt Hazard Removal as well as common Hazard setters, using it’s good matchup into most Ground types as well as Arghonaut and Samurott-Hisui, to make keeping ahead of the hazard game as tough as possible for the opponent.
As speed Minimum i chose to outspeed offensive Great Tusk, though going down to 296 or all the way up to outspeed Garchomp are certainly options.
Notably the matchups into Venomicon as well as the Grass type Spikes setters sucks. The Tera type can help in that regard.
Defog is the go to move if hazard control is actually the role you chose.
Twave is included because the spread above actually always lives an unboosted Power Whip from the Ogerpon-Wellspring from full and allows to cripple them with Twave as well as make them take chip from Rough Skin. With Tera Grass it then is possible to also live a plus two Power Whip (or take less than 50% from unboosted making it possible to fish for paralysis).
You still can punish Rapid spinners as well as Arghonaut and Samurott Hisui really well, while leaving removal to others.

Taunt finnaly allows this set to deny Toxic from Gliscor or further hazards from mons like Venom, Tusk, Ting Lu, Garchomp or Landorus.
If running taunt I think outspeeding Garchomp is nice as it also lets you block Swords Dance and recover on it.

 

[snake]

Name: Mystical Fire
Move 1: Mystical Fire
Move 2: Moonblast / Thunder Wave
Move 3: Scald / Thunder Wave
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Multiscale / Rough Skin
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Mystical Fire drops special attack more consistently than Moonblast and gives CAP33 more consistent recourse into Goldengo. It's a little awkward to slot into a moveset, but it seems nice to click after spreading burns or paralysis. For example, you won't beat Venomicon with Mystical Fire, but leaving it with a special attack drop will annoy it, espcecially if it was previously burned or paralyzed. Multiscale seems better with Mystical Fire since the damage will be halved, and the follow up hit will also be reduced, making it easier to reestablish Multiscale at 100%. Mystical Fire is a fairly weak move damage-wise, especially with no stab and no boosting moves, so there shouldn't be many issues from an offensive perspective.

0 SpA Tapu Fini Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 104-124 (33 - 39.3%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO

 

[Samirsin]

Name: Anti U-turn
Move 1: Surf
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Haze / Thunder Wave
Move 4: Recover / Moonlight
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Fire / Steel
Item: Rocky Helmet
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def/ 8 SpA
Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)

This set aims to do progress passively against physical users through chip damage. The combination of Rough Skin and Rocky Helmet means that a physical attacker takes around 29% of total HP after a contact move. It can freely change against Dragapult's or Venomicon's U-turn and damage it passively and punish the next Pokémon entering with Thunder Wave. Against Hemogoblin it can enter, take a hit and damage it, then Haze away the boosts and heal the damage. This set needs help from hazard removal so it can pivot freely.


252+ Atk Pixilate Hemogoblin Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

[quziel]

Yo, Healing Wish is really neat here.

We're fast, we're bulky, we have a solid typing to swap into and check stuff. This sounds a lot like my favorite ORAS era defogger, Latias, who commonly ran Ice Beam / Twave / Defog / Hwish on some funky teams. While the meta is very different from back then, BO teams still do love a mon that can swap into a ton of attacks thrown their way, force a swap, and then give a sweeper a second chance late game. That said, this move isn't without risk, as it does fit nicely onto a Specs set, which I do recognize is a fear that some people have. Still, Scald/Twave/Hwish/Recover seems neat? and I like that vision for this mon.

In terms of already submitted moves;

Mystical Fire seems a bit weird to me cause I'm not really sure it ever gets actually run. Scald hits the main target aka Gholdengo sorta ok, with a solid burn chance on a mon that's usually immune to chip. I'd rather give it Encore instead of Taunt, as Taunt leans a bit more into stallbreaking than walling, and I think the moves are pretty similar otherwise. I don't mind Hydro provided we don't give full tools for a Specs set (aka no Volt and no Trick).

 

[Jomakl]

Name; Switch-in-Trap
Move 1 Scald/Moonblast
Move 2 Encore
Move 3 Recover/Moonlight/Swallow
Move 4 Thunder Wave/Stockpile
Ability Multiscale/Roughskin
Item Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
EVs 252Hp/4Spa/252Spe
Nature Timid/Modest
This aims to be used to switch into resisted or neutral attacks or set up moves. taking a small amount of damage on the initial switch then you try to Encore locking them into the move. Then you can heal/Stockpile or use Thunder wave to further dibilitate them.
Scald; to have a chance to burn and further punish physical attacks
Moonblast; the high damage stab move
Recover/Moonlight; straight forward healing
Swallow; lots of healing if able to spend a few turns setting it up.
Stockpile; boosts both defensive stats and can be converted to healing
Thunder wave; stalls the opponent slowing them down and giving a chance to make them miss.

 

[Darquezze]

Name: Wish Passer
Move 1: Wish
Move 2: Scald / Thunder Wave
Move 3: Moonblast / Haze
Move 4: Recover / Protect
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

This set aims to use Wish and the CAP 33's great bulk and speed as a source of healing for its allies.
Wish has more PP than other moves discussed like Recover and Moonlight and has the bulk to use the move effectively.
Scald is a great STAB move that deals decent damage and super effective damage to key targets like Hemogoblin but may also burn the opponent, allowing for further damage and and lowering the opponent's Attack stat, increasing our survivability against physical attackers like Kingambit. Thunder Wave could be an optional choice if you rather have more speed control and allowing you to get Paralysis up without accidentally burning the opponent.
Moonblast is a strong 95 BP STAB that has a chance of lowering the opponent's Special Attack and hits key targets like Dragapult and Zamazenta. Could run Haze instead to stop set up sweepers.
Recover is there to provide reliable healing to CAP 33 when using Wish seems difficult. Could run Protect instead to guarantee the healing brought upon from Wish and to block damage for the turn.

 

[mark6870]

Name: Special Tank
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Taunt / Thunder Wave / Mystical Fire
Move 4: Shore Up
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 36 HP / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Considering the speed of the mon and the fact that we have water and fairy STAB, we can't pretend this thing doesnt have solid offensive potential.
220 SpA 2hkos standard Arghonaut after rocks with moonblast. It also OHKOes Iron Valiant, Dragapult, Hisui Samurott, and offensive Great Tusk and 2hkoes Walking Wake. Scald 2hkoes Gliscor (up to 116+ spdef evs) and Hemogoblin. Taunt is to shut down Gliscor, as well as potential switchins such as Manaphy or Wellspring. Thunder Wave does similar things, at the cost of doing nothing to Gliscor and while being way more threatening to Wellspring. Almost everything we cannot OHKO or 2HKO can be threatened by Scald burns or Moveslot 3. Mystical Fire is very gimmickal, but it does 2HKO Jumbao in Sun which is funny enough to mention and Solar Beam doesn't KO if we have Multiscale up.
In terms of defense, yes we are sacraficing a lot of bulk, but we still meet many benchmarks. For example, we arent KO'd by 2 Hemogoblin Extreme Speeds or 2 Specs Pult Shadow Balls if Multiscale is up. We still completely stifle Walking Wake and Hisuian Samorott.
CAP33 is a wave we should be giving this thing Shore Up as its 50% recovery

 

[Darquezze]

Name: Fast Crippler
Move 1: Scald / Thunder Wave / Wish
Move 2: Moonblast / Thunder Wave / Wish
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 52 SpA / 208 Spe
Nature: Timid

This set aims to to use a variety of debuffs to weaken the opponent.
Scald and Moonblast are strong STAB move that target key targets like Hemogoblin, Great Tusk, Dragapult, and Zamazenta. While providing valuable effects like Scald giving us extra chip damage and halving the opponent's Attack stat cut in half with a burn, and Moonblast having a chance to lower the opponent's Special Attack.
Thunder Wave is there to cripple Pokemon faster than CAP 33.
Recover and Wish are both here to increase our survivability, with the option to Wish Pass.
Parting Shot, this move enables us to Wish Pass much safely by lowering the opponent's attacking stats, and in general is a good utility move with the momentum it allows us.

This move set submission was specifically made to bring up Pivoting moves like Parting Shot, Flip Turn, and Chilly Reception. I originally included Flip Turn and Chilly Reception but Parting Shot was just the most useful towards the goal of this move set. Members in the Discord don't seem to like the idea of these pivot moves, but the moves remain legal for now. So it would be appreciated if there were more discussion on Pivoting in this thread.

 

[Perturbo]

I think Parting Shot in particular is a very nice addition to CAP 33 as Darquezze has pointed out above. I think that the main use of pivoting on a fast pokemon like 33 is great, but a fast pivot usually risks the incoming pokemon taking damage unlike a slow pivot. Because of this, Parting Shot would enable 33 in bringing in other offensive threats more easily while simultaneously weakening the opponent's offenses which is what a lot of its other moves such as scald or moonblast can do.
Personally, I'm a big fan of Parting Shot, and a set like Twave/Moonblast/Shore Up/Parting Shot with high HP and Speed is an interesting direction to take CAP33.
Also, while it is a mostly inconsequential change, I think Shore Up is more fitting as a recovery move than Recover

 

[LouisCyphre]

Name: "Undertow" (Whirlpool)
Move 1: Whirlpool
Move 2: Strength Sap
Move 3: Encore
Move 4: Moonblast / Scald
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 132 SpD / 128 Spe
Nature: Timid

• Whirlpool shows us a crueler side of CAP 33. By leveraging its ability to switch in and stay healthy, CAP 33 can then use Whirlpool to leave opponents in a lose-lose situation. If the switch-in both outspeeds and threatens 33, then 33's trainer can safely switch to a counter without fear of a double switch. If not, 33 can leverage their speed and bulk to checkmate the trapped Pokemon within Whirlpool's 4 to 5 turn timer. In this window, 33 can shred the trapped Pokemon's offenses, lock them into a disadvantageous move, or even outright KO them, depending on the Pokemon that was trapped. Block is an alternative for trainers who are skittish about Whirlpool's accuracy and duration, but the damage Whirlpool affords — both over time, and as a special Water-type attack — is indispensable to this set. Sand Tomb is an alternative for trainers looking to trap Saharaja and Mollux
• Strength Sap cripples trapped physical attackers while keeping 33 healthy, letting Whirlpool do its work and sometimes resetting Multiscale. The appeal of this move is the state it leaves the defender in: The Attack drops give 33 a variety of plays besides simply stalling their victim to death. At any point in the trapping process, 33 can switch to an ally, passing them a weakened and non-threatening opponent to set up on. Recover is a less aggressive alternative that gives 33 the freedom to trap special attackers or opposing walls if desired.
• Encore is the disruptive move of choice, ensuring that foes can't set up on and break through 33. The free turns afforded by a Encore give 33 the time it needs to cripple the trapped Pokemon with Strength Sap, wear them down with repeated STABs, or simply switch to an ally with perfect knowledge. As Encore has applications into trapped walls as well as sweepers and utility Pokemon, Haze can be a weaker alternative.
• Moonblast is obligatory STAB on the set that lets 33 heavily damage certain trapped Pokemon, even without investment. (We've calced uninvested Moonblast on basically every viable target at this point, so bear with me.) Even when not super-effective, Moonblast's broad neutral coverage and chance to lower Sp. Atk make it the STAB of choice for wearing down trapped opponents. Scald is an option for more specifically targeting physical opponents if 33 is supported with a dedicated special wall.
• Leftovers is chosen due to the amount of time this 33 will spend in play, but Heavy Duty Boots can be used to ensure 33 always enters play with their Multiscale intact at least once. If using Rough Skin, Rocky Helmet can be used in combination with Encore to force certain trapped opponents to break themselves upon 33, while 33 heals up in front of them. Grip Claw extends the trapping duration of Whirlpool to always last 7 turns, but 33 has the capacity to KO or severely cripple the trapped Pokemon within Whirlpool's normal duration and usually prefers the other recommended items. Binding Band is a meme item and should not be considered.
• The given EV spread and nature speed creep Timid Walking Wake by a single point without their Protosynthesis boost, with the rest invested in special bulk to pair with Strength Sap. This is a very arbitrary benchmark, though, and this 33 can be customized to hit a variety of useful speed tiers as needed.
• While most of 33's usual prey will fear this set, special care must be taken around Arghonaut, who can phaze this set with Circle Throw to simultaneously break Multiscale and end the trap. U-turn users such as Dragapult also complicate this set's usage to a lesser degree, though 33 can use Strength Sap or Moonblast into predicted U-turns, or simply attempt to trap the Pokemon being brought in.

 

[Scizivire]

Yo, I have some time to spare so I'll provide some feedback on the sets posted so far. There are a few moves for which I want to see some more/better arguments, so I'll underline those as I go and we can discuss this as the thread progresses. I'll bold any changes I'm suggesting to the sets as well. Please remember that this is just my personal opinion and things may change as other users chime in over the course of the thread.

--

Physically Defensive -> Fast Wall

Name: Physically Defensive -> Fast Wall
Move 1: Surf / Scald
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Moonlight / Recover
Move 4: Encore / Thunder Wave / Taunt
Ability: Multiscale / Rough Skin
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Rocky Helmet
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

This feels like it'll be pretty much the standard, go-to set CAP33 will be running. A nice mix of damage, self-preservation and utility through moves helps us tremendously into the current meta, and the provided EV spread lets us perform well as a fast wall. I swapped out Leftovers for Heavy-Duty Boots because - especially if we're running Multiscale - we likely want to take as little chip damage as possible, especially with the amount of hazard opportunities available right now. I think Encore and Thunder Wave are both a bit more relevant than Taunt on the standard set right now, which is why I've slashed Taunt last. I think changing the name of the set to "Fast Wall" is a more accurate description, though that's semantics ;)

Side note: I'm not sure about Moonlight as the main recovery option for this Pokémon, especially given how common Veil HO is right now. We're not super likely to keep refreshing our Multiscale into those kind of teams anyway, but keeping our health high would still be important enough that I'd think Recover is an overall much safer option.

Haze

Name: Haze
Move 1: Haze
Move 2: Scald / Hydro Pump
Move 3: Moonblast
Move 4: Recover / Moonlight
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 52 SpA / 208 Spe
Tera Type: Grass / Fire
Nature: Timid

Haze is a viable utility option on CAP33, making full use of our high base speed to deny slower mons clicking boosting moves. I'm not sure if the EV spread given is relevant to this set in particular, but it seems like a good alternative to the max HP / max Speed spread above in general. Tera Grass is very useful into mons like Ogerpon, though I think Fire is better here especially given it also lets us completely deny Hemogoblin in a pinch.

Physically Defensive Rough Skin

Name: Physically Defensive Rough Skin

CAP33 @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Level: 100
Bold Nature
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Grass/Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 64 Spe
- Defog/Taunt/Thunderwave
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Moonlight / Recover

Investing more into physical defense to make full use of the Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet combination I think is well worth running.

I'm not sure about Defog on this mon though, during the defining moves stage this did not come up as something we wanted this mon to do and I think I'm still in agreement with that. We have plenty of options already so for the sake of reducing bloat I don't think it should be included, though I'd like some more discussion to happen around this move in general.

Moving on, both Taunt and TWave are quite intuitive for this set, as do the rest of the moves (though once again I think Recover > Moonlight). Parking the speed above Great Tusk makes a lot of sense here, and the other speed options mentioned seem worthwile as well, though I think outpacing Gliscor on Taunt sets should be emphasized. The provided Tera types, Poison especially, seem useful defensively into threats like Venomicon as well as the mentioned Ogerpon-Wellspring.

Mystical Fire

Name: Mystical Fire
Move 1: Mystical Fire
Move 2: Moonblast / Thunder Wave
Move 3: Scald / Thunder Wave
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Multiscale / Rough Skin
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

I don't particularily like Mystical Fire here (or in general tbh). The move feels really underwhelming as an option compared to running dual STAB with disruption even if it annoys Gholdengo and Venomicon, two of our most common checks/counters. The rest of the set is pretty much the same as the first set posted, so I'll leave it at that.

Anti U-turn

Name: Anti U-turn
Move 1: Surf
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Haze / Thunder Wave
Move 4: Recover / Moonlight
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Fire / Steel
Item: Rocky Helmet
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def/ 8 SpA
Nature: Bold (+Def, -Atk)

This one is quite similar to the "Physically Defensive Rough Skin" set above, with even more emphasis on physical bulk. I think I prefer sacrificing some bulk for speed though, but Tera Steel seems good as a neutral option that also still resists rocks over Poison, at the cost of becoming weaker into Zamazenta as well as Iron Valiant and Iron Moth.

Quick interlude to tell you that I agree with quziel that Healing Wish is interesting to explore here for more offensively orientated teams, though I'd like to see what a full set including the move would look like.

Switch-in-Trap

Name; Switch-in-Trap
Move 1 Scald/Moonblast
Move 2 Encore
Move 3 Recover/Moonlight (-Swallow)
Move 4 Thunder Wave (-Stockpile)
Ability Multiscale/Roughskin
Item Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
EVs 252Hp/4Spa/252Spe
Nature Timid (-Modest)

This set confuses me because it's a bit all over the place. First off, it doesn't actually trap things? Also, Stockpile and Swallow are pretty dang bad and there's a reason you never see anything run it so I've removed them. Also, while Water and Fairy both usually make for great solo STABs, I think CAP33 really wants to use both. Running both TWave and Encore seems less valuable than being able to hit a good chunk of the meta super-effectively. As a last side note, I don't think running Modest is the play for CAP33 unless we're offensively invested, and even then I think Timid is preferred.

Wish Passer

Name: Wish Passer
Move 1: Wish
Move 2: Scald / Thunder Wave
Move 3: Moonblast / Haze
Move 4: Recover / Protect
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

At this time I'm not entirely sure whether or not I like the prospect of Wish-passing for CAP33. Our HP isn't massive even when invested, so I'm not quite sure if it's worth running, though the interaction with Multiscale is pretty interesting I must admit. I'll likely come back to this later on.

Special Tank

Name: Special Tank
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Moonblast
Move 3: Taunt / Thunder Wave (-Mystical Fire)
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 36 HP / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid

Finally a more offensive set appears. I knew this was going to happen from the start, and I won't deny that it's a reasonable thing to suggest given our base stats and Multiscale. So getting into the meat of things, the dual STAB lends itself well to offensive coverage especially given how fast we are, while Taunt keeps more defensive answers from doing whatever they want a la Tapu Fini in SS or cripping more offensive answers with TWave. Once again, I feel like Mystical Fire pales in comparison to the other options so I'd like to see it removed. Shore Up seems entirely irrelevant other than flavor-based reasoning given that sand is non-existant in the meta right now, and Recover is fine for what we want to achieve.

The EV spread and accompanying calcs seem really well thought out, especially taking Multiscale into account. Well done!

Fast Crippler

Name: Fast Crippler
Move 1: Scald / Thunder Wave (-Wish)
Move 2: Moonblast / Thunder Wave (-Wish)
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Parting Shot
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 52 SpA / 208 Spe
Nature: Timid

Personally, I don't particularily like pivoting moves on this mon, especially as it was not of much interest for us during defining moves and would radically change how CAP33 plays, but Parting Shot does seem like the best option to pursue if we do want to go for this. I would definitely like some more discussion on whether we should allow pivoting moves in general though.

Running Wish over a STAB or TWave seems very passive to me. We don't actually exert much pressure without the ability to cripple the opponent through TWave or threatening many of our targets with super-effective damage-- I think you need one or the other for CAP33 to be succesful as a fast wall.

"Undertow" (Whirlpool)

Name: "Undertow" (Whirlpool)
Move 1: Whirlpool
Move 2: Strength Sap / Recover
Move 3: Encore / Taunt
Move 4: Moonblast / Scald
Ability: Multiscale
Item: Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 132 SpD / 128 Spe
Nature: Timid

Whirlpool trapping seems like an interesting lure set, though I don't think it can be considered a main set for us. I'm not convinced Strength Sap is what we should go for healing-wise, though it would make more sense if the opponent is trapped. Nonetheless Recover is more consistent overall so I've slashed it. Encore as well as Taunt go really well with dedicated trapping sets in order to restrict what the opponent can do which I suppose is the point of the set. Then the STABs are a given to actually exert pressure I suppose.

I'm not sure what the EV spread intends to do bulk-wise (I'm sure there's some benchmarks you can hit though) but overall the set seems pretty solid as an alternative set.

--

Whew, that's a lot of typing. Overall I'm quite pleased with how the thread has progressed so far. Once again I would like to stress that everything written above is my own, personal opinion and you can take from that what you will. I would like to see more feedback posts from different users as well though, both as a measure of the consensus and to provide feedback to sets in particular. Also, I would particularily like to know people's opinions on Defog and pivoting as these are things we have not discussed as extensively before. With that said, keep up the good posts!

 

[Zetalz]

I'm not a big fan of a lot of the moves that have come up recently, as they tend to fall into the same pitfalls of having too high opportunity cost and pushing too far into the realm of passivity. Being frank, most sets that ask 1 of our STABs and/or our disruption utility slot to be dropped for there proposed gimmick of choice do not inspire joy.

Mystical Fire is always overrated every CAP it comes up and it's no different here, I do not consider it a viable alternative option to Moonblast in the slightest for drop spamming, and certainly would not take it over Scald burns into Dengo.

All of Defog, Wish and Pivoting moves push 33 farther away from the playstyle we've attempted to play toward imo, and do so in a way that lowers 33's ceiling too much for my liking. Wish and Parting Shot in particular feel incredibly passive and unsynergistic with our stats, restricting how much progress you can effectively make any given turn with the former and encouraging a more uninteresting pivot spammy playstyle with the latter. Defog at least on paper feels more fine for how it targets the spikers we beat, but doesn't feel terribly compelling in comparison to other extant removal, or considering 33's positioning vs Dengo.

Non-standard recovery moves are coming up shockingly frequently and the arguments for them feel weak. Moonlight is a double edged sword that I don't think gives the proper consideration to how frequent Veil is rn, nor to it's potential upsides failing to make up for it. Shore Up as far as I can tell is being brought up entirely on flavor justification which just feels like bad show if you ask me. If you want an objectively stronger version of Recover, regardless of the current placement of Sand in this meta, I want to hear logical competitive reasons first and foremost. Strength Sap dreams died with our chosen stat spread imo, largely I feel it will be underwhelming at best vs anything not named Hemogoblin.

Healing Wish & Whirlpool are cool and basically the only new things that have come up that I have no immediate issue with. Struggle to think of what Sets would look like and Whirlpool inherently feels very low impact, but feels good as a second or third set option.