CAP 33 - Part 6 - Stat Limits Discussion

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3: Do we want to be working with a higher or lower T-Value? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these options?

To help answer this last question, below you can find a link to a post made by spoo during Saharaja's process on how different T-Values have a different effect on stats limits, but as a TL;DR, higher T-Values put less weight on speed and more weight on offenses when calculating PS/SS, and lower T-Values do the exact opposite.

https://www.smogon.com/forum
From what I have gathered on T-values and CAP 33 based on what people have said I feel that it could run a higher than normal T-value because it allows for higher attacking stats which are wanted. Lower one could be considered due to how important speed is.
Higher; pros; higher possible stats
Cons; might get to sweepery
Lower; pros; won’t be to likely to become a sweeper.
Cons; might force either a lower speed or special attack then wanted.
Overall that is a newbies analysis of CAP 33 and T-values this Pokémon as stated earlier in the thread should be 2-3 maybe 1 hit KOing opponents. So a 2.5 for higher or a 1.5 for lower would probably be acceptable the default value is also quite fine for CAP 33.

p.s might have errors
 
1: Should we be designing limits with the idea that CAP33 will generally want to invest fully into speed in mind? If so, would it be a wise idea for us to have higher than usual defensive stats, compared to other defensive Pokémon in the tier as means to accommodate for the lack of investment?
Speed is such an important and integral stat that, I believe if you have the Speed you will always invest in it, and thus limits should be designed with the idea that CAP33 is going with Max HP and Max Speed. That being said, we won't need to put extra emphasis on bulk if we get utility through our typing, which Threats Discussion shows we do. We should have good defensive stats nonetheless.

2: Are BSR penalties on Scald and Knock Off appropriate, as a means to help encourage people to build with spreads not using these moves? If so, how big should this penalty be? What other moves on our defining moves list stand out as needing some sort of penalty?
Yes. Scald and Knock are powerful ways to make progress and, if chosen, would be where the bulk of our offensive pressure comes from. Additionally, if they had no penalty, they might as well just be considered required moves since there would be no incentive not to use them.
Scald should have a higher BSR penalty than Knock due to it being more oppressive, though.

3: Do we want to be working with a higher or lower T-Value? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these options?
I'm also not intelligent enough to say which is better, but i can say either will work. If we view T-value on a spectrum from Talonflame to a traditional wall like Garganacl, Lower T-values skew the spectrum towards Talonflame -- builds where Speed and resistances make up for a lack of raw bulk. Higher T-Values lose a lot of that utility a higher Speed would you (being able to pick off weakened checks / recovering HP before an enemy attacks) but you gain the ability to take a lot more neutrally. I don't know which is better, I just know both would work for CAP33.
 

shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
is a Pre-Contributor
1: Should we be designing limits with the idea that CAP33 will generally want to invest fully into speed in mind? If so, would it be a wise idea for us to have higher than usual defensive stats, compared to other defensive Pokémon in the tier as means to accommodate for the lack of investment?
Ultimately our Speed Tier is likely to fall within a specific benchmark location instead of a rounded 125 or 135. This will mean that outspeeding a mon will often require as much investment as possible, and that's a pretty significant benefit to us. Of course, there might be matchups where we are comfortable, or even prefer being slower than the opponent. I think it's safe to assume that we will run about 248 EVs and a +Nature in most circumstances. I'm assuming that we're likely to creep a Pokemon by 1 Base Stat; even if not, CAP 33 will have to content with itself, and depending on where our movepool goes forcing the Speed Tie might be optimal.

I do not think we need terribly high Defense stats to compensate for EVs going into Speed. We identified early on that being fast is a massive defensive boon that many slower walls have to compensate their lack-of: this manifests itself as heavier defensive investment. Let's say that a mon has 60 BS in Defense and 120 BS in HP. If you want this mon to take hits physically the best it can, you obviously want to put as much into Defense as possible. Where should the rest go? Well, if you're Speed stat lays in the lowest echelons, you're best bet is investing in HP, as even with heavy Speed investment you're likely to lack the initiative. If you're very fast, however, you'd likely be more incentivized to invest in Speed so you can act before the opponent even has the chance to damage you. Essentially, Speed's best defensive attribute is letting you avoid the problem of taking damage in the first place, whenever possible.

Especially with Multiscale in the mix, CAP 33 is much less concerned of remaining healthy enough to withstand two attacks, just that it can both live the initial hit, and follow-up with a strong response to regain advantage. If anything we could probably get by with less defensive stats than current Walls, just by merit of our Speed. But, having higher defensive stats is likely to result in us just focusing in on those more than Speed. Like if our defensive stats on their own rival the likes of Arghonaut and Corviknight we'd probably be quite comfortable being a max/max fat blob of a mon that randomly outspeeds Hoopa or something silly like that.

2: Are BSR penalties on Scald and Knock Off appropriate, as a means to help encourage people to build with spreads not using these moves? If so, how big should this penalty be? What other moves on our defining moves list stand out as needing some sort of penalty?
Personally I think these moves in isolation are perfectly fine on CAP 33 and don't need any restrictions. Where things get murkier is having these two in conjunction with the other. Scald + Knock is hell to switch into for, well everything to be honest. Scald chips you + threatens Burn, which also chips you and makes nearly all Physical attackers weaker. Knock Off chips you, and removes applicable items, either further chipping you indirectly or making nearly all attackers weaker. Basically, it sucks! And a mon that is tasked with handling CAP 33 using both is likely to contend with both during a match, resulting in no item + potential Burn + whatever damage you took from the move itself. Now combine that with the fact that we're not SS Toxapex (aka not ass slow) and potentially able to chain these moves together on the same target if we want, and there's a clear problem.

I think the only penalty we need is if a spread elects to have both Scald and Knock Off instead of just one. These moves become way more problematic when combined with one another. effective bec they're easy to spam, and have effects which change the course of a match on a whim. But, often that's just on initial activation. A mon that is Burned isn't more threatened by Scald, similarly if you don't have an item Knock Off is just a 65 BP Dark move that's not even STAB off us. It's much easier to find a mon that is comfortable taking one of these, versus one that has to deal with both.

I'll commentate on this a bit more though,

As it stands we're likely to want Water STAB to handle various mons, and that's probably Surf. A move like Knock isn't exactly taking Surf off our moveset, but Scald absolutely is. So while Knock Off has "opportunity cost" (as much as a move like that can), Scald is just a better version of a move we'd already likely to use. So I think a minor penalty can be applied to Scald. If you want an idea of what, I'd recommend hits to Special Attack and/or HP. SpA is lowered simply because Burn can pretty easily outdamage the 10 BP difference on the right target, while HP is just to compensate for Burn making us a better Physical wall by proxy.

You could maybe consider a minor Speed restriction for Hydro Pump as well, if only to discourage sets getting too offensive. I thought about a Special Attack penalty but found that was contradictory to the point of the move, plus it might get awkward if Scald has a similar penalty, so this felt like a good compromise.

3: Do we want to be working with a higher or lower T-Value? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these options?
Something that complicates matters is simply the diminishing returns of increasing Speed relative to the BSR increase we accrue as a result. We're outspeeding new mons less and less the higher our Speed gets, and our Sweepiness ratings fail to reflect how impactful certain benchmarks really are. I've included four images below showing BSR and related values with a slew of Special Attack and Speed combos, with the T-Value set to 1, 1.85117, 2.5, and 3.5 respectively.

TValue1.png

TValueDefaut.png

TValue2,5.png

TValue3,5.png

Note how little our Special Sweepiness increases from 140 Base Speed to 145 – even though this is a significant difference in the context of CAP, as far as the BSR calc is concerned, we've barely increased the amount of Pokemon we outpace. In general this means that spreads whose best offensive attribute is Speed are punished way less than spreads that prefer Special Attack.

What I'm struggling with is that a lower T-Value punishes higher Special Attack values, which sounds ideal given we want CAP 33 to not focus on offense, but a low T-Value implies that our time to KO is very fast. A large T-Value feels more appropriate for a wall, but results in Special Attack contributing less to our BSR and thus letting you have higher offenses than we may want. I feel kinda lost with all this? It almost feels like the T-Value is doing the exact opposite of what we want for a fast wall.
 
1: Should we be designing limits with the idea that CAP33 will generally want to invest fully into speed in mind?

We're most likely going to see a many spreads that speed creep a strong target mon in base stats alone, leaving the mon in a situation where it will lose some matchups it otherwise wouldn't if it doesn't fully invest. I would (for the most part) assume max investment, and leave it up to people submitting stats to explain the theoretical viability of different EV investment opportunities (if they actually exist for their base stat spread).

If so, would it be a wise idea for us to have higher than usual defensive stats, compared to other defensive Pokémon in the tier as means to accommodate for the lack of investment?

I don't necessarily think it should have higher defensive stats than your average OU wall to accommodate lower investment, as we're designing a mon around using its high speed stat to aid in it's survivability. If we were to give the mon corviknight defense and HP, it can live one fully invested headlong rush taking max just under 73%, and if at full health it takes half of that at max damage.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Corviknight: 123-145 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 58.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 246-291 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is obviously a conditional check almost relying on multiscale's damage mitigation, but Tusk is such a powerhouse of a pokemon that being able to do this with 0 defense EVs and still win the matchup 1v1 is notable. All it takes to threaten a KO on tusk after the spdef drop from headlong rush is 67(!) Special Attack Uninvested.

0 SpA Corviknight Moonblast vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 372-438 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And it only needs 84 Special Attack to do it with Scald

0 SpA Corviknight Scald vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 372-440 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The way I see this playing out, if CAP is at full health it can comfortably switch into tusk to threaten a KO, forcing it out and either healing up or fishing for status or other utility. I imagine a lot of CAP's interactions will play out like this. All this to say: it doesn't need to have higher raw stats than your average OU wall to function, outspeeding is literally the deciding factor here. However, I do think that the limits should allow for some freedom to be bulkier. (Corviknight sits at an excellent 122 PT, for reference)

2: Are BSR penalties on Scald and Knock Off appropriate, as a means to help encourage people to build with spreads not using these moves? If so, how big should this penalty be? What other moves on our defining moves list stand out as needing some sort of penalty?

Scald absolutely should have a penalty on BSR totals, it's such a useful, spammable move that will greatly aid in making this mon not passive. Knock Off's penalty shouldn't be harsh if it has one.

Strength Sap needs to be mentioned here because of how useful it is to compress utility moveslots. Strength Sap will both heal the CAP and hopefully restore multiscale, AND weaken an opposing pokemon, increasing its staying power, while potentially having more options to use with its moveslot compression. It's really fun and intriguing for the concept, and it would improve so many matchups against the sheer power of the metagame without inflating raw stats to an excessive degree. I'd love to see it on this mon, but it's powerful, so to balance that, the mon has to take a hit in its stats somewhere. I'd probably weight it less than scald in terms of penalty.

You mention wanting to encourage creativity, I think the way to do that is a more generous BSR with a harsher restriction on optional moves. Scald almost feels like a given here, so the way I view it, the scald penalty included is the "BSR" and not including scald allows bonus stats. Ideally the weight of the scald penalty should be set as if scald is a required move, and the actual BSR limit is how much of a bonus should be allowed. The rest of the required moves should be weighted according to scald. If scald is not weighted heavily, say a -5 penalty, I'd MAYBE put a -5 penalty on Knock Off and Strength Sap too. If scald is a -10, Knock and Strength Sap would have a -5 penalty. If Scald is a -20 penalty, I'd honestly still keep Knock off at -5, and put Strength Sap at -10 or -15. I probably wouldn't ever put a penalty on Hydro Pump but if Scald is sitting at a -15 or more and we're looking at a pretty generous BSR limit, more optional moves should maybe get that -5 too. Ground coverage, depending on what it is, can alter a lot of matchups, so a minor penalty should be considered if the Special Sweepiness and/or BSR limit are on the generous side.

3: Do we want to be working with a higher or lower T-Value? What are some of the pros and cons of each of these options?

I haven't been here in a while, don't know what a T value is really, but it doesn't look like the speed tiers we're working in weight the speed too heavily regardless, so we should figure out what T value weights the special attack appropriately at the very least.
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
I think a lower T value makes more sense; we are putting a notable emphasis on forcing switches and stopping sweeps with Multiscale. Even if CAP33 ends up staying for longer, its probably doing so in an offensive context. This doesn't really seem like a Pokemon that is going to sit for a couple turns like Garganacl or Venomicon, former stall with Salt Cure and ladder getting Stamina boosts plus fishing for Sludge Bomb poisons. This is a fast wall in the literal and figurative sense; it's in just long enough to stop a sweep or force a switch, weaving in healing in-between. Probably will lead to a higher-than-usual BSR for this process given the boxes CAP33 is trying to tick, but I think that was a given from the conceptual stage for this one.

With that being said, CAP33 should really be a wall because it is fast, not a wall that is also fast. Higher than usual defenses kinda undermine the idea that our defensive prowess is in large part our Speed. What this implies to me is either a spread that can be tanky on one side of the spectrum if you invest specifically in a stat (think Astrolotl) or a spread that has such a higher natural defense in either Defense or Special Defense that you can go max HP/max Speed or, greedily, max SpA/Max Spe. I think trying to land on a Mew or Arghonaut-style defenses results in Speed playing second fiddle, being an offhand bonus more than anything.

Knock and Scald should have penalties, with Knock Off's being more harsh imo.
 

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less
is a Pre-Contributor
On BSR penalties I'm inclined to agree with shnowshner's methodology of compounding limits. Several of our optional moves really don't feel like they should carry heavy penalties if they're being used in isolation from each other, with Scald being the sole exception imo. Not knocking on knock's strength but in the scenario where it's the primary utility factor on 33's kit I don't think it should incur any penalties by itself.

Did a little quick and dirty chart of what moves I feel should have what impact on BSR, if anyone wants to use it as a jump off point to give their own thoughts feel free.
Moves
Minor BSR penalty (-5 to -15)
Major BSR penalty (-15 and higher)
Minor BSR penalty only w/ other specified move(s)
Major BSR penalty w/ only other specified move(s)
No BSR penalty
ScaldIf in isolation from KnockIf w/ Hydro Pump and/or disruption movesIf w/ Knock, probably at least -20 or more
Knock OffIf w/ other disruption movesIf w/ Scald, probably at least -20 or moreIf in isolation from other disruption moves or Scald
Hydro PumpProbably better in the form of a Speed cap to disincentivize offensive sets.
HazeIf w/ other disruption movesIf if isolation from other disruption moves
EncoreIf w/ other disruption movesIf in isolation from other disruption moves
Strength SapIf w/ Scald + Knock and/or disruption moves. Move is overrated imo and should not incur any penalties otherwise.

No comment on T values because it hurts my neurons and makes my brain go ow.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Alright, we've reached a point where I am now ready to post my preliminary limits. Gonna skip the recap this time, since most of what I would say regarding the answers to my second set of questions is going to be covered by my explanation for the stats.

T=2.75Base LimitsIce-type CoverageGround-type CoverageKnock OffScald
PS80
SS120
PT115
ST115
BSR570-5-5-5-10
Maximum Speed143


As a quick reminder, the limits on moves are cumulative. This means that by going with multiple different defining moves with restrictions, you will be taking the combined penalty for these moves. (Example: Let's say I want to submit a spread that lists both Scald and Ice-type coverage as defining moves.) This means that in total, I will have a -15 BSR penalty applied.

For the T-value, I decided to go with a fairly unorthodox value of T = 2.75, which corresponds to us taking 3 turns to achieve a KO 75% of the time and taking 2 turns to achieve a KO for the other 25% of the time. My main reasoning for going with this value corresponds to the weird dilemma that we have with this process in particular, which was covered well by shnowshner in his response to my third question. Basically, we find ourselves in a situation where higher T-values, while they make sense given the context of this Pokemon, don't really have enough of an impact on our Special Attack which may net us higher offensive stats than we want, while lower T-values have the exact opposite problem. After messing around a bit in the calculator, I found that T = 2.75 felt like a very good equilibrium between these two different ideals. In regards to the overall stat limits, PS is purposefully low so as to not allow any spreads where our overall may have any impact on our BSR, and given that we established earlier that CAP33 really should be focusing on a Special Attacker, I figured that users wouldn't really have too many issues with this approach. In regards to SS, I was originally going to propose a limit of 125, since with that value we are unable to achieve a triple-digit Special Attack stat without sacrificing enough speed to the point that we are no longer able to outspeed Iron Valiant, and have a separate -5 SS limit for Hydro Pump so as to not encourage users to submit more offensively inclined spreads. However, after talking with other members of the TLT, we figured that these limits offered a bit too much freedom in allowing users to submit more offensively inclined spreads and instead just decided to apply the penalty that I wanted to give to Hydro Pump across the board instead. As for PT/ST, I wanted to put our maximum a bit under where Equilibra's PT lies (115.89), and as several users have pointed out in response to my first question, CAP33 will more than likely be investing fully in speed, meaning it has less room to invest in bulk, and there's very little if any reason that we should be trying to compensate for this by having higher than usual defensive stats. With regards to our overall BSR, I have settled on 570 as it's too low to allow for users to create spreads that ride the limits that I have set for the project at the same time, while also being fairly high to give plenty of freedom for users who choose to not use any of the moves that I have given penalties to experiment with. For comparison sake, this is about where Kingambit (569.85), Arghonaut (567.88), Tomohawk (568.35), and Astrolotl (566.32) all lie.

As for penalties on defining moves, several different users have mentioned in their response to my second question that both Scald and Knock Off should be given penalties due to their oppressive nature, with users such as Zetalz and mark6780 both stating that Scald should be given a bigger penalty. This appears to be the overall sentiment of the thread and is something that I largely agree with, and as such, I have decided to construct limits that adhere to it. As for the limits on our coverage, they might seem a bit strange, considering that they never really got brought up at any point in the thread; however, I believe that they are appropriate to further reduce the amount of power users have to work with if they aim to submit more offensively inclined spreads.

My limit on our maximum speed should come as no surprise to anyone who is a member of the CAP Discord Server, as this is something I've been hinting at for quite a while at this point. To catch other users up to speed, though, after the point at which we outspeed Dragapult, there's really no reason for us to be fully investing in our speed anymore, and the extra EVs granted to us by not fully investing essentially give us extra bulk that comes at the cost of no extra PT, ST, or BSR. This, to me, is just blatant BSR abuse, and I wanted to remove the possibility of this occurring right out of the gate. Realistically, I do think that I could reduce the maximum allowed speed here, as there haven't really been too many users who have expressed the idea of wanting to outspeed Dragapult, but I figured that making them high would make users feel less restricted when trying to settle on what speed tier they think would work best with their given stat spread.

That's all for now. I will be giving this around 24-36 hours for the community to review and suggest any changes that should be made to these limits, if any. After which, I will make one last post in this thread to wrap things up, and we can finally move onto the Stats Submission Stage.
 

Zetalz

Expect nothing, deliver less
is a Pre-Contributor
So while we were hashing out penalties for Ice/Ground coverage we settled on just an overall penalty, but after doing some more research on different possible spreads I feel that the BSR penalties on coverage should be applied to SS instead. With the current limits it's very possible to make spreads that are bulky, fast and also fairly strong offensively.


HPATKDEFSPASPDSPEBSTPSSSPTSTBSR
80401009210014355559.94119.71104.56105.00559.40

This to me feels very unideal and encourages things like Specs far more than it should. If we apply the -5 to SS instead, it makes it far more reasonable to include 1 or both coverage options without fear of pushing toward Specs Pult 2.0 imo.

HPATKDEFSPASPDSPEBSTPSSSPTSTBSR
80401008710014355059.94114.47104.56105.00547.29
80401008210014354559.94109.23104.56105.00535.18
 

shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
is a Pre-Contributor
I'm having trouble outlining my thoughts on the limits so I'm going to illustrate using sets. These obv aren't representative of the sets we'll be using with absolute certainty, just what seems initially possible.

CAP 33 @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- (Recovery)
- ???

This is largely what we're working with at the moment. We want both STABs in order to avoid passivity, and we definitely want recovery. We have one moveslot to work with in this case, and the BSR penalty inflicted should better reel in our power based on what it's trying to accomplish.

CAP 33 @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- (Recovery)
- Ice Beam / Earth Power

CAP 33 @ Choice Specs
Ability: Multiscale
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Ice Beam / Earth Power
- Earth Power / Ice Beam / Hydro Pump / Recover

I haven't thought about coverage much wrt 33 because I don't know if our attacking stats and remaining movepool will be good enough to justify. That said, I agree with Zetalz that the penalty should be applied to Special Sweepiness instead of BSR as it much more directly targets spreads trying to maximize offensive potential.

CAP 33 @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- (Recovery)
- Knock Off

Knock Off isn't trying to nab any KOs – our Attack is likely to be low enough that the damage this deals is tiny unless you're frail and Dark-weak. Having a full BSR penalty applied makes sense given Knock is making the mon more difficult to handle in general.

CAP 33 @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
- Scald
- Moonblast
- (Recovery)
- ???

This is why Scald should have the highest BSR penalty of the four. It's a notable power increase that further constricts counterplay, but without costing us a moveslot. I could honestly see you raise this one higher; however, I think it's probably fine in isolation.

CAP 33 @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
- Scald
- Moonblast
- (Recovery)
- Knock Off

I still stand by this deserving an additional penalty. I think Knock could get bumped up to -10 but truth be told Knock on its own is probably manageable and potentially even dropped sometimes. Knock + Scald is a major escalation of power however, give CAP 33 a free turn and pick your least favorite mon to get crippled. -5 BSR for this combo please.
 

spoo

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Ok I know a post like this isn't super helpful because we can't just go back and edit our defining moves right now, but I think Ice and Ground coverage are both really disingenuous at this point and it's probably in our interest to heavily discourage their use.

I missed most of the discussion in Defining Moves (why I didn't bring this up sooner), so I'm not 100% sure on what the motivation behind including/running these options is, but here's how I'm evaluating them:
  • On defensive sets, there is just no significant benefit over our other Defining Moves in 90% of cases. Versus Grasses, we hit Malaconda and Meowscarada harder with Moonblast, Jumbao is hardly relevant, and Rillaboom and Caribolt already fear switching into us due to Knock, Scald, and Wisp. We hit Dragons harder with Moonblast bar Dragonite, where MB is still stronger a decent amount of the time because of tera; likewise, Scald/Surf outperforms vs all Ground-type targets except for Gliscor and Landorus, where it is still more than enough.
  • Venomicon is probably the "biggest" matchup here, but are we really making the hard read on Venom's switch and clicking uninvested non-STAB Beam for 20-30% damage, when we could click Scald or Knock instead, still pressure Venom, and still make progress if Venom doesn't switch in? This doesn't sound worthwhile to me
  • Similar thing where Water STAB outperforms vs most Fire and Rock targets, with exceptions in Astrolotl and Iron Moth. Earthquake vs Iron Moth is much better than our other Defining Moves here, but I'm still skeptical that we ever give up a moveset to run it, especially when we're likely forced into a -Atk nature; Iron Moth is only one Pokemon, and not one that we can consistently switch into even if we run EQ, whereas other options like Knock, Wisp, etc, have far more universal value. Knock is also arguably more useful than EQ vs Astrolotl as it makes permanent progress against a mon that's notoriously difficult to punish
  • Against other Pokemon: EQ is useful vs Glowking and Ghold, but so is Knock Off; Pex shrugs off anything we throw at it regardless; Sneasler and especially Gambit have much more to fear from Scald/Wisp; Kril gets shadow realmed by Knock Off; other mons like Clodsire, Plasmanta, etc are not relevant enough to really consider here

My conclusion is that Ice and Ground coverage have little to no value on defensive sets over other options we're considering. I believe they are disingenuous because, as I see things right now, the only reason you'd run them on CAP33 is on an offensive set, probably Specs. Granted, I don't think we're at a particularly high risk of running offensive sets, even if we do distribute these coverage moves, but it's nonetheless something we should be actively discouraging; as a result, I would recommend a -10 SS penalty for stat spreads that assume access to these moves.
 
I think that the way the BSR is build is not meant for Pokémon like this one that skirt the upper limits of speed but aren’t offensively inclined and I feel that this shows when building a STAT spread with the current limits.

We talked a bit about the different speed benchmarks during this stage coming to the conclusion that there are a few benchmarks in the range between 110 and 143.
The issue now especially when approaching the highest speeds is that there’s almost no incentive to drop down to the next benchmark with the current limits (except for optics).
The T-Value set this high compounds this issue even more leading to a situation, where the drop from 143 to 124 is a meager 2 point BSR difference and even down to 111 it ends up only being 10 points in BSR,
that can be reallocated into bulk or offensive stats.
That means a whopping three points allowable in Special Attack and five HP for the lowest speed tier and even less for faster options.

90501008510014356870.34112.37111.57111.91559.24
90501008510013155670.14112.07111.57111.91558.54
90501008510012454969.78111.52111.57111.91557.26
90501008510012054569.23110.67111.57111.91555.30
90501008510011153668.00108.81111.57111.91550.99
90501008510014356870.34112.37111.57111.91559.24
91501008510013155770.14112.07112.28112.60560.22
92501008510012455169.78111.52112.98113.29560.62
93501008510012054869.23110.67113.68113.98560.34
95501008510011154168.00108.81115.08115.36559.39
[/SPOILER]

I understand the reasoning for a higher T-Value and agree with this choice. I also know, that Speed having a low impact on BSR at the highest levels is just a quirk of the BSR Formula.

This is why I’d like to propose setting (moderate) penalties/bonuses for hitting the next higher/lower Speed Benchmark to allow slower spreads to actually have a benefits over the fastest options.
I’m not sure how these penalties/Bonuses should look like but I think they’d be a good option to have more diversity during stat submissions and allowing people to submit slower speeds with no or less drawbacks.
Maybe these penalties/Bonuses could be directly put on Bulk to be more aligned to the concept?
I realize it might be odd to penalize Speed when that’s part of what the concept is about, but I feel there has to be an incentive to not go max speed other than optics.
 
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I think that the way the BSR is build is not meant for Pokémon like this one that skirt the upper limits of speed but aren’t offensively inclined and I feel that this shows when building a STAT spread with the current limits.

We talked a bit about the different speed benchmarks during this stage coming to the conclusion that there are a few benchmarks in the range between 110 and 143.
The issue now especially when approaching the highest speeds is that there’s almost no incentive to drop down to the next benchmark with the current limits (except for optics).

. . .

This is why I’d like to propose setting (moderate) penalties/bonuses for hitting the next higher/lower Speed Benchmark to allow slower spreads to actually have a benefits over the fastest options.
I’m not sure how these penalties/Bonuses should look like but I think they’d be a good option to have more diversity during stat submissions and allowing people to submit slower speeds with no or less drawbacks.
Maybe these penalties/Bonuses could be directly put on Bulk to be more aligned to the concept?
I realize it might be odd to penalize Speed when that’s part of what the concept is about, but I feel there has to be an incentive to not go max speed other than optics.
This is something that can't be properly addressed at this stage in the process, something for prc. However, I do think it reasonable to apply a penalty specifically on spreads with 143 speed.



The BSR limit is appropriate and the knock off and scald penalties are sufficient. I don't think any "extra" penalty need be applied for having both, that's why they're cumulative. Applying limits specifically to special sweepiness is the right way to go for coverage, as it doesn't limit the overall stat rating and impact the bulk.

I would like to see the physical tankiness limit raised to 120 to match the special sweepiness limit, aligning with the defensive nature of the concept and allowing for a little bit more wiggle room to accommodate the metagame's hard hitters.
 
This is something that can't be properly addressed at this stage in the process, something for prc.
Imo it needs to be addressed now or never tbh. This is the concept where the BSR Formula hits a limit we will rarely even scratch.
I don’t think we need to bother with a PRC to change or amend the formula, considering that most of the time we will not come close to these levels of speed.

I’m not sure we need to set limits even this time, but the gut feeling says being faster than Pult at least should be valued higher than going slower. How much it’s worth idk tbh.
 

Da Pizza Man

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Alright, here are my final limits

T = 2.75Base LimitsIce-type CoverageGround-type CoverageKnock OffScaldSpeed = 143Speed < 131Speed < 120
PS80
SS125-5-5
PT115
ST115
BSR565-5-10-5+5+5*
Maximum Speed143

*: Reminder that both bonuses and penalties are cumulative. This means that by going with multiple different defining moves with restrictions, you will be taking the combined penalty for these moves. (Example: Let's say I want to submit a spread that lists both Scald and Knock Off as defining moves.) This means that, in total, I will have a -15 BSR penalty applied. Furthermore, going with certain bonuses for having lower speed alongside defining moves with restrictions may cause the bonuses and penalties to cancel each other out. (Example: Let's say I want to submit a spread that has Scald and 118 Speed. This means that I will be working with the standard BSR, since the bonuses from having lower speed are cancelled out by the penalty given by Scald).

Changes:
  1. Bonuses and penalties for reaching certain speed benchmarks were added.
  2. Ice-type coverage and Ground-type coverage have had their BSR penalties changed to SS penalties.
  3. The SS Limit was increased from 120 to 125.
  4. The BSR Limit was decreased from 570 to 565.
1: Easily the biggest change here is the extra bonuses and penalties granted for having less or more speed. Over the past 24 hours, several users have brought to my attention that, with how the BSR Formula currently operates, there isn't enough incentive for users to submit spreads with lower speed values since the reward they get for doing so is significantly less valuable than just having the extra speed. As such, multiple different bonuses to the BSR Limit have been added for going below certain thresholds. As for specifics, I settled on granting the first bonus for having less than 131 Speed, the amount of Speed that would be needed for us to outspeed Stratagem, with the second bonus being granted for having less than 120 Speed, the amount of Speed that would be needed for us to outspeed Cinderace. Originally, this was all I was going to do regarding this change, but after talking with other members of the TLT, we noticed that there still wasn't really much incentive for users to submit spreads that have speed between 131 and 142, as they would be forfeiting both the bonuses granted by having lower speed and the ability to outspeed Dragapult, which led to the implementation of a minor penalty for reaching exactly 143 Speed to address this issue.

2: This change corresponds to Zetalz's argument that applying a penalty to BSR for coverage doesn't do enough to disincentivize spreads aiming to maximize offensive potential, a sentiment shared by several other users, myself included. As such, I have implemented their suggestion to change the penalties applied to these moves to affect SS instead of BSR, as this is a more direct way of discouraging users from submitting these types of spreads.

3: After a conversation with several different users on Discord last night, and with the change in regards to how coverage moves will be penalized, I have decided that allowing users more freedom to submit spreads with higher offensive stats would be acceptable. For this reason, I have returned to the original SS Limit of 125 that I had settled on.

4: With the implementation of bonuses for having lower speeds in place, I have found that it is a bit too easy for spreads with lower speeds to ride the limits that I have set so far for my liking, while at the same time, I feel that if I lower these bonuses, then they wouldn't do enough to incentivize users to submit spreads with lower speeds. As a solution to this issue, I felt that a minor reduction to the current BSR Limit that I have set in place was in due order.

And with that, we have officially reached the conclusion of this thread. I'm hoping to see you in the next stage of the project, where we will be opening up submissions for Stat Spreads.

Tagging ausma for approval.
 

ausma

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Sorry for the delay; I wanted to sit down and eye this over proper. I think the penalties are extremely well targeted and I'm fairly intrigued by the addition of BSR bonuses to reward more conservative spreads. I don't have any amendments to make or anything against these final limits, so I think we're good to move on!
 
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