CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 11a (Non-Attacking Moves Discussion)

[Deck Knight]

So far, I'm liking all of the options we have...

I only have one possible addition, which I believe everyone will shoot down pretty much immediately, but has surprisingly NOT been mentioned:
NASTY PLOT

He can get it through the tutors, and as weve discussed earlier, most Priority moves will OHKO him. He would also have to use up a moveslot which could be alternately used to cover. Also, we gave Syclant Tail Glow, so why not?

Nasty Plot isn't a tutor. Darkrai gets it through Level Up.

And its already started with Nasty Plot. As if we aren't going through this right now with Syclant and Tail Glow?

Anyway, The reason I probably forgot Calm Mind on Sudowoodo and Relicanth is its utter uselessness to them. It would not be useless here, since this already has the votes to get a superior movepool to Alakazam, and moreover, gets a boost on a boosted stat. Its SDef in Sandstorm after Calm Mind with no investment is 396. Or in other words, it will take special hits better than Max/Max SDef Dusknoir. Real Glass Cannoney, that...

 

[darkie]

No Calm Mind.
Seriously. This thing doesn't NEED boosting moves to be viable. With the voting as it went in the other thread, it is more than viable as it is. After a single Calm Mind in a Sandstorm with a [Timid 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe] spread, (honestly, this is not very farfetched) this guy takes special hits as well as Max/Max Calm Togekiss, in addition to 508 special attack with one of the best offensive types in the game. No thanks.

No Taunt.
I feel this would be the best way to stop this guy from being an infamous suicide rocker. Banning Stealth Rock strays from precedent, whereas not everything has Taunt.


that's all for now.

 

[Nokocchi]

No: Magnet Rise ... It's not steel nor electric. I don't see how can that be even close to a Magnet. Plus, it already has Levitate, although more likely people will abuse Technician.

Magnet Rise has nothing to do with Magnets. It's called Electro-Levitate in Japan

I agree with you, though, as It doesn't make any sense that it should get it. The only non-Electric/Steel Types that learn it are the Porygon line and Pokemon that evolve Into Steel-Types, Nosepass and Riolu.

 

[armogohma]

How about Baton Pass? It could work out interestingly with ancient power and ominous wind. Although, I imagine rockmon might have difficulty actually holding a baton.

 

[Skyshroud]

How about Baton Pass? It could work out interestingly with ancient power and ominous wind. Although, I imagine rockmon might have difficulty actually holding a baton.

I don't think that Baton Pass is a good idea. If Ancient Power triggers and you can manage to force it out, I don't think it should be able to pass such an amazing boost to something else. Seriously, if AP triggers but Scizor comes in to Bullet Punch it, you shouldn't get a bulkier Metagross with a Dragon Dance under its belt coming in on you.

For the second part, I hope you're just kidding.

 

[tennisace]

No Nasty Plot

You want to give something that's faster and more powerful with better stab than Syclant Nasty Plot, when we want to get rid of it? Haha no.

No Baton Pass

Besides being a fairly exclusive move, its not going to be useful. It doesn't get priority, so Priority moves still beat it, and I don't like the whole AP Pass idea.

Trick

This would be damn sweet, trick scarf those damn Deo-es, random Burn Orbs, and other tomfoolery of that kind.

U-turn

I do like this, Trick or SR/Rock Move/Explosion/U-turn@Scarf Lead anyone?
Smexy.

 

[Goodbar]

U-turn

I do like this, Trick or SR/Rock Move/Explosion/U-turn@Scarf Lead anyone?
Smexy.

With such low attack it's not really going to be making much use of this, at least azelf can put a dent in stuff with it, I mean scouting is cool but on the set you listed I'd definately use fire blast over that. But that sounds like a cool lead, even if its not exactly new

 

[hinode]

No Nasty Plot, please. The controversy surrounding Tail Glow Syclant was plenty, and this has better special sweeping stats and just as good an attack pool. I'd rather have Charge Beam or even Calm Mind for a stat boosting move.

Part of me kinda likes the idea of super-fast Rock Polish pass, but AP hax passing gives me pause, though I won't outright oppose it just yet.

Trick sounds like a good use of that high speed stat, I'll support that.

 

[RobertM]

Yea. Another suicide lead will really shake up the metagame >_>

 

[tennisace]

With such low attack it's not really going to be making much use of this, at least azelf can put a dent in stuff with it, I mean scouting is cool but on the set you listed I'd definately use fire blast over that. But that sounds like a cool lead, even if its not exactly new

With no EVs, Azelf isn't putting a dent in much with U-turn. But yeah, its not new but it would be killer still, its proven to work already.

Yea. Another suicide lead will really shake up the metagame >_>

Do we need to shake up the metagame every single time? Seriously, the other sets this would run potentially (Sub/Rock/EP/Ice Beam@LO or Rock/EP/Ice Beam/Explosion @ Specs) are more frightening to me, and have a crapload of potential. Giving this Taunt+SR doesn't make it a suicide lead automatically. Cases in point- Bastiodon and Bibarel. It would be a perfect candidate, but there are better uses for this.

 

[speedwobbles225]

How about stealth rock with no taunt

Uturn
No calm mind

 

[Goodbar]

With no EVs, Azelf isn't putting a dent in much with U-turn. But yeah, its not new but it would be killer still, its proven to work already.



Do we need to shake up the metagame every single time? Seriously, the other sets this would run potentially (Sub/Rock/EP/Ice Beam@LO or Rock/EP/Ice Beam/Explosion @ Specs) are more frightening to me, and have a crapload of potential. Giving this Taunt+SR doesn't make it a suicide lead automatically. Cases in point- Bastiodon and Bibarel. It would be a perfect candidate, but there are better uses for this.

Still, you have a 130 difference in attack stats...anyways I've been toying around with a jolly lead scarf trick azelf with max attack, much fun...
And yea with four (soon I feel to be three, if i'm counting right) other suicide leads available, people might find rockmon to do other things better, especially since his offensive movepool is huge.
With that said, I am against Spikes and both screens if anyone mentions them, while rockmon is outsped by most scarfers, it still would be able to set up nearly as well as deoxys and I'd rather not create another deoxys, which seems like its on the road to get banned (I've decided recently I'll be voting no, and I should be voting).
What about Magic Coat? Could be an interesting move. Snatch too. Both need good prediction and thus are rarely seen though.

 

[Darth Meanie]

I think Stealth Rock is fine, but we wouldn't give it Taunt or Trick so that way it can't outclass Aerodactyl/Azelf, so it wouldn't be used as that. Also I would like to say that I also don't like the idea of stat boosting moves besides Ancientpower, he's fast enough as is. U-turn looks like a good idea though, as does Faint Attack.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

I think that Trick, but no Taunt, is an acceptable compromise. It still lets it participate in Trick awesomeness, but without Taunt, it can't really outclass Azelf or Aerodactyl in terms of being a fast suicide lead. :)

 

[X-Act]

I am totally in favour of Calm Mind. Alakazam has easily a better typing than this thing and doesn't have the time to Calm Mind, so how is the argument different for CAP5? I don't see any problem with it.

Stealth Rock should obviously be part of this Pokemon's movepool. It's a Rock type, and Stealth Rock is a Rock typed move. So it must have it, period. It's like saying that this Pokemon cannot have Sandstorm in its movepool. That's bollocks.

If you people are worried about suicide leads, then why did you vote for Explosion?

 

[TAY]

Calm Mind seems like a great idea. In the same vein as X-Act's argument, Alakazam has even higher SpAtk and a pretty similar amount of speed, and it isn't even OU. This will not break rockmon.

Stealth Rock - It's a rock type. It gets Stealth Rock. Even with the concept being what it is, something as fundamental as this is pretty tough to ignore.

Taunt is one of my favorite moves, and it is incredibly useful. It will allow rockmon to do well against defensive pokemon, which is something it isn't great at right now.

------------------------

Me First is a pretty swell move that so far hasn't had a pokemon who can use it well. While I doubt it would be a premier attack, it would certainly be a viable option with 130 base speed, and it would be a pretty damn awesome answer to dragons on a levitate set.

Magic Coat seems appropriate here. Reflecting hypnosis, etc would be a great surprise for this guy to carry. Once again I doubt it would be a premier attack, but it would certainly be an alternative to taunt if the user is trying to avoid status, and it would help it as a lead as well.

Wish would allow it to support its team similar to how Jolteon does now. This is arguably more useful than recover, but on a pokemon with such low defenses it would require decent prediction to use well. (The Pixie-ish sprite makes this a good flavor fit as well).

 

[eric the espeon]

No Taunt.
I feel this would be the best way to stop this guy from being an infamous suicide rocker. Banning Stealth Rock strays from precedent, whereas not everything has Taunt.

QFT
If you are so worried about a suicide lead (and TBH whats sooo bad about it) then take taunt off it.

I basicly agree with what TAY said.. and U-Turn would be great fun with this.

 

[Deck Knight]

I am totally in favour of Calm Mind. Alakazam has easily a better typing than this thing and doesn't have the time to Calm Mind, so how is the argument different for CAP5? I don't see any problem with it.

Stealth Rock should obviously be part of this Pokemon's movepool. It's a Rock type, and Stealth Rock is a Rock typed move. So it must have it, period. It's like saying that this Pokemon cannot have Sandstorm in its movepool. That's bollocks.

If you people are worried about suicide leads, then why did you vote for Explosion?

Alakazam has easily a worse weakness, no immunities, and a type completely immune to its primary STAB, worse defenses across the board, and a shallower special movepool. It is also slower. Weavile can come in on CM Zam and instantly KO it with Pursuit. The same cannot be said for Rockmon.

In fact, Rockmon has more HP with 0 EVs than Alakazam does with 252. Its defense is higher, and in a Sandstorm, Its overall special defense is superior to a Max/Max HP/SDef Alakazam. People have also talked about giving this Recover for some absurd reason.

Modest Vaporeon (No EVs) Surf in Sandstorm to 0/0 1 CM Rockmon: 46-54%. (I used Blaziken on Metalkid's, knowing that Sandstorm cancels out STAB.)

Its a shaky 2HKO with No investment, STAB, from a water pokemon with one of the better special attacks. Now I grant you it was not an EV'd Surf, but then, Rockmon wasn't EV'd either.

What you're trying to sell is the idea that a pokemon with paperweight defenses and high, but beatable speed is equivalent to a pokemon with competent defenses a weather-induced boost, and generally unbeatable speed. The two could not be more different.

Oh, and did I mention that potentially, not only could Rockmon have 508 SAttack, its Primary Special STAB could also Burn you 30% of the time, giving it a functional 332 Defense.

Yup Yup, this is exactly like Alakazam... Except not like it at all.

Oh a final note:

Votes Going as they are, assuming this gets Calm Mind, expect this set:

Rockmon @ Babiri Berry (halves Steel damage)
252 Spe/252 SA/4 HP
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
Trait: Levitate
~ Calm Mind
~ Brimstone
~ Flamethrower/Fire Blast
~ Earth Power/HP Grass/Substitute

Please point out to me a single pokemon who would like the honor of dealing with this. 252/0 HP/Sdef Bronzong takes 97-114% from Fire Blast. Flamethrower does not OHKO it, but Gyro Ball will not OHKO thanks to Babiri Berry. Forget about Metagross, Scizor, or Lucario countering this.

Last option: EP for Coverage, HP Grass for Pert or Waters, Sub for non SToss Blissey.

 

[X-Act]

Might I suggest the following non-attacking moves for this Pokemon:

Cosmic Power - Could be interesting, and it's by no stretch of the imagination broken.

Acupressure - I can see this Pokemon being able to learn it.

Defense Curl - It can use it, and I can see it combo with Rollout as well. I'm not saying it'll be useful, I'm saying it's physically able to do them both.

Fake Tears / Metal Sound - Lowering the switch-in's SpD by 2 stages is much less effective as increasing your own SpA by 2 stages. So, if this Pokemon doesn't get Nasty Plot, it should at least get one of these.

 

[eric the espeon]

Deck Knight, I can't see Blissey losing to that set. And Snorlax/Revenankh have a good shot.

Also there is no way you could run all the options listed on that set.

Accupressure would be something interesting to try out, probably a gimmick but it could be fun.

Don't see much point in Defense Curl or Cosmic Power, and they don't fit perfectly. Its not like DC will be used so its a filler for flavour and CP.. Maybe for a Cosmic Wall like set, if it gets taunt. But I really hate those type of sets....

Metal Sound would not be as bad as NP, but I think it may be a bit to much with this things great coverage and high speed.

 

[Deck Knight]

Deck Knight, I can't see Blissey losing to that set. And Snorlax/Revenankh have a good shot.

Also there is no way you could run all the options listed on that set.

Snorlax and Rev get burned by our wonderful 30% burn rate on Brimstone. Blissey needs SToss to beat Sub. Otherwise it loses because it can't break the Sub, suffers Burn damage, and is eventually run over by Calm Mind. You can't Toxic something behind a Sub. Sub also eases switching, so you can get a free Burn shot in.

Rev also is getting a Revamp on its SDef, so it may not be able to survive 2 boosted Fire Blasts.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Why are constantly assuming that it will get Brimstone and configuring our decision around it? They're no way to know if it will win or not. They're a good chance Dust Cloud or that Tri Attack clone to make a sudden and unbelievable comeback and win. We need to think of every possibility when it comes to Rockmon.

 

[zarator]

Personally, I'm against Calm Mind. And for those who compared this thing to Alakazam, i remember you that CAP5 has 90 base HP, 65 def and 75 spdef (boostable in SS). It is much more similar to Raikou with fairly worse typing but better Spatk, Speed and movepool. Seriously, at least Dugtrio and Weavile can easily trap and kill it (with Sucker Punch and Pursuit respectively) without any harm to themselves after the switch. If CAP5 runs Levitate (which is the best ability with CM) nothing is going to trap/pseudotrap him, BPers will be swiftly met with a Babiri Berry... it could become as annoying as Yachechomp (ok Chomp is only Ice/Dragon weak, but with several CMs under its belt and 130 spd how can you kill CAP5 with a Water/Grass move?). Some of you would probably said: hey, Mach Punch? Find me a viable Mach Puncher as useful as BP Lucario/Metagross/Scizor...

Stealth Rock is viable, but Taunt obviously shouldnt. No more suicide leads plz.

Trick is interesting. I really support this, it would make a nice little surprise out of him.

On this way, i will make another suggestion. Remember that i dont want any set up move apart Rock Polish and maybe SR on this pokemon.

Encore

Encore from a 130 Spd could very well screw up some counters such as Blissey. And dont claim this thing will get unkillable - with only 3 moves it cant cover everything... Rock/Ground/Fire doesnt shield you from grounds,
Rock/Ground/Grass exposes you to Scizor and Rock/Grass/Fire leaves you prone to Heatran (It can use Flash Cannon guys... dont hope it will not hurt you).
In conclusion, Encore can just ensure us CAP5 can have a trick for every possible counter. In other words, i dont want a bona fide counter to CAP5

p.s.: No, Explosion doesnt solve your Blissey problems without a solid EV investment in Atk, it is viable only with a lead no special sweeper set.

 

[DougJustDoug]

No matter what custom move "wins" -- it does not mean it will automatically be in the final movepool. Movepool creators will pick and choose the moves that create a cohesive movepool, and THAT is what will be voted on. If movepool creators do not like the custom move, or they don't think it fits with the rest of the moves in their movepool -- then they are not obligated to include it.

With that said...

Stealth Rock absolutely must be on this pokemon. I'm stunned that so many people are advocating NOT including it. I understand that many people hate suicide leads, but Stealth Rock is not remotely overpowered on this pokemon. If you want to spend an incredibly valuable moveslot on this frail pokemon, just so you can put rocks up -- so be it.

And the pokemon is Rock type. Rock types get Stealth Rock. "Break the Mold" or not -- Rock types get Stealth Rock. I will acknowledge that there can be exceptional cases to every supposed "rule" in pokemon. But, the overwhelming evidence in the game supports the assertion that Rock types get Stealth Rock.

And on a pure flavor note -- Stealth Rocks are sharp floating rocks. This pokemon is nothing but a bunch of sharp floating rocks! And we even gave it Levitate! Include SR for the competitive reasons I mentioned above -- but, if a levitating bundle of sharp rocks does not get to use Stealth Rock, I don't think my inner fanboy will ever recover from the trauma.


Calm Mind - Yes. I think we should give movepool creators the option to make a movepool with Calm Mind. I do think a movepool with Calm Mind needs to be carefully created -- but I think the CAP project has plenty of competent movepool submitters that are up to the task.

 

[beej]

I am absolutely against Stealth Rock on this Pokemon. It is not at all overpowered, I realize this. But this Pokemon is meant to be a sweeper and seeing it relegated to the role of suicide lead more often than not is an idea that I personally find appalling. Azelf has essentially turned into such, and he looks GREAT as a sweeper. To see that happen to Rockmon, like Azelf or Aerodactyl, is something I do not want to see.

As far as CM goes, I have very mixed feelings. That set looks very cruel, but assuming it doesn't get Brimstone I can see it being beaten by Hariyama, Revenankh, Machamp and other somewhat bulky Fighting-types. The real question is whether or not there's enough checks along with these to beat it. I'm more biased to no than yes for CM, though.

Trick actually sounds like a wonderful idea. Considering most special sweepers have some sort of additional utility/coverage move on their sets, whether it's Gengar with Hypnosis, Trick, Azelf with Nasty Plot or Explosion, or Deoxys-E with Superpower, Trick on Rockmon will give it a little something extra along with its attacks.