CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 9 (Ability Poll 3)

[eric the espeon]

Interesting.. Levitate has taken the lead again..

This CaP has had by far the most extremely close polls....

 

[Time Mage]

After Doug's great posts, I can only add that I fully agree with him (and many other people who posted damage calcs and good reasonings).

Like X-Act, I spent a lot of time deciding my vote, because the people criticizing Technician had some interesting arguments against it... But in the end, those arguments aren't solid enough against the hard numbers displayed. In fact, I have to express that I'm as concerned as Doug about the viability of CAP5. And in fact, if we can achieve the balance of "I can't switch into nearly anything, but nearly anything can switch into me" I'll be really satisfied.

By the way, if Technician wins, I'll be supporting Levitate as the second ability. It will create an interesting dilemma in the form of power vs switching ability.

 

[Robodl9]

levitate

 

[tennisace]

I disagree that art absolutely doesn't matter, just because pokemon generally have abilities/moves based on their art. The art serves as something that narrows your choices down. If caladbolg's art had been chosen, there's no way we woulda had levitate on this list and shouldn't have either. So when you're voting for art, you're indirectly voting against certain moves/abilities
EDIT: If you're going to argue against this by naming pokemon with weird moves/abilities please don't, that's why I said generally...

I'm going to argue against this because you don't seem to get that we don't care about flavor, or shouldn't at least. Thats why I'm proposing trying art last in the next CAP, to see how much flavor really does play into this. I would have voted for Levitate no matter WHAT the art was, because I believe it's the best for it competitively.

 

[beej]

Although flavor is certainly not the most important part of this, I believe that it DOES have importance, and to say that we really shouldn't care about it at all is silly. When was the last time you saw a Pokemon without limbs use Close Combat? Even Staraptor makes a remote amount of sense with the move. What about a Pokemon without a mouth using Screech? A Pokemon without hands using the elemental punches?

Honestly I don't think that Pokemon like Rhyperior disprove this in the least, just maybe for Pokemon that are similar to it. If we made a Ground-type reptillian Pokemon, then maybe we could look to Rhyperior. There are trends here, and some Pokemon in general don't make sense (like Normal-types) and some are VERY limited due to flavor (like Fire-types).

I'm never going to vote against something that's necessary for the prosperity of a CAP just because it doesn't make a lot of sense, but would you really slap Fire Punch on Staraptor so that it can deal with Bronzong better? I wouldn't.

On another note, I'm still at a loss for what to vote for. I'm disappointed that my favorite options didn't make it through, so I guess I'll be fine with whatever wins.

 

[Shelcario]

Voted Levitate as eliminating a weakness is more useful than having an extra boost in power.

 

[hinode]

A Pokemon without hands using the elemental punches?

You mean like this?

I think it would be better to say that competitive value is of primary importance and flavor secondary when voting on anything, not that flavor is completely irrevelant. With movepool for instance, crucial moves should be decided entirely on competitive value, and any flavor issues justified after the fact by Pokedex entries/pre-evo/whatever. With secondary options - something you'd see in the Other Options category, or a filler slot on a Choice moveset - flavor can be used to suggest something "obvious" for the typing/design or veto something egregious. Minor moves should be determined solely by flavor concerns, since that's their entire purpose.

 

[Bull of Heaven]

I voted for Levitate this time, but I'll vote for Technician in the next poll. But that isn't why I'm posting here. I'm posting to say that I disagree 100% with the bold part of the quote below:

I'm going to argue against this because you don't seem to get that we don't care about flavor, or shouldn't at least. Thats why I'm proposing trying art last in the next CAP, to see how much flavor really does play into this. I would have voted for Levitate no matter WHAT the art was, because I believe it's the best for it competitively.

Look, I understand that our first priority here is to "experiment with the metagame," and I have no problem with that. But I do have a problem with the suggestion that flavor doesn't matter at all. Some of us, including me, are here mainly because the fanboys in us want to create pokemon, and as long as we all understand that competitive value comes first, I see no reason why flavor shouldn't matter. In my opinion, flavor-based arguments are valid, but not as valid as metagame-based ones, and it would be a mistake not to recognize that. I can't speak for others, but if flavor ever actually loses all importance in the CAP process, I'll immediately stop visiting this forum, and I doubt that I'm the only one who will.

Look at movepools as an example. Most of the moves you see in level-up lists are simply there for flavor, and have no competitive value, but we still included these moves in the level-up lists of every CAP so far. If there were no flavor moves, we would be left with an incomplete, purely competitive movepool. Can you honestly tell me that whatever fanboy exists in you wouldn't be at all upset if that happened.

EDIT: Beej and hinode beat me. But this proves that I'm not the only one who cares about flavor.

 

[Goodbar]

I'm going to argue against this because you don't seem to get that we don't care about flavor, or shouldn't at least. Thats why I'm proposing trying art last in the next CAP, to see how much flavor really does play into this. I would have voted for Levitate no matter WHAT the art was, because I believe it's the best for it competitively.

Then do that, it'll make the art have to conform to everything we competitively give this pokemon. But putting it before the selection of moveset/ability/etc. means you're going to have to competitively conform to the art, if not in your mind, at least in the minds of most other people. If caladbolg's art was chosen, I would not have chose or even considered levitate, but if levitate was chosen before the art, then I'd not even considered voting for caladbolg's art.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Here is a quote from the CAP Mission Statement.

The Pokémon created by the CAP project are intended to be used in competitive metagame play. That is the primary factor driving the design and construction process. Each Pokémon should add something new or necessary to the metagame, hopefully making the metagame more balanced, and increasing the number of viable Pokémon available for competitive play. However, almost everyone involved in the CAP project is a fan of the Pokémon game. As such, although it is not the main focus of the construction process, the CAP project strives to create holistic Pokémon concepts that make sense within the spirit and example of the actual Pokémon game.

Flavor isn't totally irrelevant, it is a secondary concern. If it was totally irrelevant, we wouldn't bother to make artwork and sprites. We would define our type, stats, and movepool and play with the default "Question Mark" on the Shoddy server.

But, in WAY TOO MANY cases, people engage in entire threads of discussion and debate about minor nuances of flavor. That has to stop. I'm one of the biggest fanboys on this entire project. Go look at my art thread, go look at my battle tower records, go look at my posts about ingame stuff -- I love all the stupid ingame things that most metagame players ignore.

But, I'm not going to let the CAP project devolve into "Just Another Fakedex Project". There are projects like that all over the internet. And none of them achieve anywhere near the popularity and participation levels that we get here at the CAP project. I think the CAP project's focus on competitive play is what sets it apart from other projects that try to build "Kewl Pogeymans". It is almost certainly what makes the CAP project a good fit within Smogon.

So, if you want to mention flavor as part of an ongoing competitive discussion, be my guest. If you want to vote based primarily on flavor-based reasoning -- feel free. But, if you want to derail threads by discussing flavor issues at length -- then you have come to the wrong project. As long as flavor takes a back seat to competitive play -- then we'll be just fine.

 

[tennisace]

Although flavor is certainly not the most important part of this, I believe that it DOES have importance, and to say that we really shouldn't care about it at all is silly. When was the last time you saw a Pokemon without limbs use Close Combat? Even Staraptor makes a remote amount of sense with the move. What about a Pokemon without a mouth using Screech? A Pokemon without hands using the elemental punches?

Wooper. GG.

 

[beej]

Alright then Doug, I do agree with that. I just didn't like how some people said that flavor had absolutely no relevance whatsoever, which is just a bluntly untrue statement.

Wooper. GG.

If I didn't think there were exceptions to this rule, it would be gg. Quagsire does have hands anyway.

 

[sanjay120]

Above post made me lol for some strange reason.

Gastly probably creates a fist made of ghostly energy. Togekiss only gets them because Togetic does.

Doug, you are forgetting one important detail with your Tyranitar argument: Tyranitar is slow, therefore defenses matter more to it than to CAP5. Otherwise good job, and I am definitely voting Technician.

 

[X-Act]

Yeah, Tyranitar is slow. That makes a LOT of difference. It's true that this Pokemon's type sucks, but, to counter this Pokemon, you'll need to prepare yourself to take two hits of this guy's move before you even hit it with your move. Depending on the movepool we give it, the list of counters to this Pokemon might be very small indeed.

And lest we forget, Weavile has got very similar stats (oriented physically rather than specially), not that great of a movepool and equally shitty typing (if not even worse), and yet it's used quite frequently.

 

[RobertM]

And lest we forget, Weavile has got very similar stats (oriented physically rather than specially), not that great of a movepool and equally shitty typing (if not even worse), and yet it's used quite frequently.

Isn't Weaville mostly used for priority and trapping? Correct me if I'm wrong but most sets use Pursuit and/or Ice Shard. I think a better example would be Alakazam. He's frail, fast, special based, shitty typing, has powerful attacks, and comes with trick. He's top OU right?

 

[bojangles]

Isn't Weaville mostly used for priority and trapping? Correct me if I'm wrong but most sets use Pursuit and/or Ice Shard. I think a better example would be Alakazam. He's frail, fast, special based, shitty typing, has powerful attacks, and comes with trick. He's top OU right?

Weavile has shitty typing for defense, but two great STABs. Also Alakazam is top BL, not top OU.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Yeah, Tyranitar is slow. That makes a LOT of difference. It's true that this Pokemon's type sucks, but, to counter this Pokemon, you'll need to prepare yourself to take two hits of this guy's move before you even hit it with your move. Depending on the movepool we give it, the list of counters to this Pokemon might be very small indeed.

And lest we forget, Weavile has got very similar stats (oriented physically rather than specially), not that great of a movepool and equally shitty typing (if not even worse), and yet it's used quite frequently.

Tyranitar easily takes care of his speed issues with a single Dragon Dance, which makes it faster than damn near every pokemon in the game. Even after a DD, Tyranitar doesn't go sweeping entire teams -- and that's on top of Tyranitar's massive 134 ATK stat that goes into the stratosphere after a DD.

I was really hoping we would make this pokemon in the Weavile mode. I posted to that effect in an earlier thread. Most Weaviles carry Swords Dance and a Focus Sash, because Weavile's low BP moves don't do shit unless its Attack has been DOUBLED. Even after a Swords Dance, Weavile doesn't go sweeping entire teams, and Weavile has much better attack typing than CAP5, since it gets two very useful attacking STABS. Any Weavile that isn't running SD, is packing a Choice Band, for almost the sole purpose of tagging switch-outs with STAB Pursuit, and revenge killing stuff with STAB Ice Shard. Weavile is very good, but even with boosts, it's not gamebreaking by any means.

The point of these arguments is not refute X-Act and Sanjay, per se. I agree that TTar's speed is a big limitation, and I agree that Weavile is useful with poor defensive typing and stats similar to our rockmon. I am refuting those that are screaming that when a Technician'd AncientPower gives this pokemon the rare all-stats-boost, that it will "sweep entire teams". I just don't believe it. And I think Weavile and Tyranitar are great examples of why I don't think that will happen.

 

[Legacy Raider]

CAP5's Timid +1SpA Life Orb Technician (just for this example) Ancienpower does less than a third damage to 0/176 Calm Blissey (25-29%), so it's not like the thing is without its counters. Once it is paralysed, it is effectively dead weight, so Blissey will almost guarantee to force CAP5 out.
Even after an Ancientpower boost, I seriously doubt this thing will blitz its way through an entire team. Not by a long shot.
As DJD rightfully said, the hard thing with this CAP will be making it relevant, not preventing it from being broken.