CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 9 (Ability Poll 3)

[Darkflagrance]

Blissey is the most common special wall in the game, being unable to deal with common strategies = lose.

Even with Technician Ancientpower, unless you somehow get two boosts with specs, you still lose to Blissey. Even then, you'll be locked by Specs into a move that now has less than 8 pp.

EDIT: Thus, just vote for Technician without fear for the brokenness. The hax should easily be taken care of by a team that can sufficiently handle special threats, because even with 2 boosts (with Specs) this thing is still looking at being stalled out of Ancientpower pp by Blissey (or possibly Registeel etc.).

Rather, think about the new introduction to the metagame of a Technician Special Sweeper with an 89 attack move of any type.

 

[Not Scicky]

lv100 #CAP 5
Type: Rock
Spec. Attack: 339

used Ancient Power on

lv100 Registeel
Type: Steel
Spec. Defense: 400

CAP 5's Choice Specs boosts its Spec. Attack by 1.5×
Min: 63
Avg: 68.03
Max: 73

It's not very effective... CAP 5 receives STAB (1.5× damage) for this attack
This move deals 1.5× damage with CAP 5's Technician in effect

Ran a little Calc for this guy, yeah, not hard to wall :S

Especially since registeel can gyro ball back >:3

Edit: BTW, this thing is weak to bullet punch, and scizors everywhere now

 

[Darkflagrance]

Ran a little Calc for this guy, yeah, not hard to wall :S

Especially since registeel can gyro ball back >:3

Edit: BTW, this thing is weak to bullet punch, and scizors everywhere now

I did a similar calculation and got the similar results, just to drive the point home for those who worry about hax:

Max attack +1 Tech'd Ancientpower does 96-113 (26%-31%) to Sassy 252/200 Reginazi.

Even with hax it is counterable.

 

[DougJustDoug]

While I agree that a boost to all stats is huge, we really don't know how huge it is. AncientPower has never been in play in the metagame. I think we should find out. From a theorymon perspective, it seems big, but not much worse than getting Freeze on an Ice Beam.

Let's face it, if you get frozen, you're dead. So, basically, every Ice Beam carries a 10% chance of killing your pokemon. Yes, you can thaw out or perhaps switch into a fire move or something. But, for all practical purposes, when you get frozen, you acknowledge that hax just cost you a pokemon. But, it doesn't really alter the metagame that much? It's just one of the elements that you deal with. Would many competitive battlers prefer to get rid of Freeze entirely? Probably.

Even with an AP boost, this pokemon will not be sweeping entire squads just because it got a boost to all its stats. For one, the move is only base 90 to begin with. It's not a 120 BP move that has become the bog standard "good move" in today's metagame. And with all the Steel and Ground pokemon running around, there are plenty of OU pokes that will resist it.

And remember this pokemon's typing is one of the worst defensively. Even with a boost to both defenses, it still has to worry about every Ground, Fighting, Water, Grass and Steel move in the book. Those first two attack types are carried by multiple pokemon on every team. Almost every team carries at least one water pokemon, and almost all of those run Surf because Water hits almost everything in the game for neutral or better. Lots of pokemon carry Grass Knot for bulky waters and grounds. And on the CAP server, you could argue that Steel is a common attacking type these days --since so many teams carry Steel moves to handle Syclant. Our pokemon will be facing multiple threats on every team. I think it's very reasonable to predict that at least 4 pokemon on every team will have a super-effective move waiting for our frail little rockmon.

Most teams are prepared to handle pokemon that use stat-up moves. Even if the stat-up happens due to hax. It's not like the opponent is going to D/C because a Rock pokemon got a boost, even if that boost hits all the stats. Yes, 10% of the time it will suck. But, it won't be much worse than Metagross getting the attack boost on Meteor Mash, after it used Agility on the switch. Does that ever happen? Yes it does -- 20% of the time, I might add. Does it suck to be on the other side when it happens? Yes it does. But, is it gg? No fucking way. And Meta is a helluva lot tougher than this Rock pokemon we are creating.

I don't know what will happen with AncientPower. Personally, I'd like to see how much an "All Stats Boost" will affect the metagame. Even with the Platinum move tutor giving Ominous Wind to practically every pokemon in the dex -- I still don't think we'll see it used in the metagame. Even Serene Grace pokemon aren't running it, and they get a 20% chance for the boost. I'd feel better about AncientPower, if the Technician'd BP were 75-80. But, at 90 BP, I think we can play it and see how it works out. If this were on a pokemon with better typing, I might be more averse to giving it a try. But, on a Rock pokemon, I'd like to see how it plays out. We can always change it later if it proves to be broken.

I'm voting for Technician.

 

[Sunday]

+ 1 everything boost seems to be quite overhyped right now. Contrary to what Doug said, some people actually have taken advantage of it via Serene Grace + Batton Pass Togekiss. I used it for a while passing to Tyranitar. Even something as beastly as Tyranitar didn't go so well with it, as a +1 boost is nice you end up with a little of everything and not enough where you need it. Sure it packs a punch, but it has the same atk as CB Tar, still meh-ish speed and such, so fast Pokes could still dent it and slower tanks still wern't 1HKO'd. I honestly would be more scared of any Poke with 2 DD's than one AP Boost.

When you restrict those boosts to only one Pokemon, and only a 10% chance of it occuring, I doubt you'll have a problem.

 

[Vividsketch]

Quoting myself from few threads ago for convenience.

Technician - would be an awesome ability. Remedying the low base power of Ancient Power, allowing for base 90 Hidden powers and maybe a small collection of lesser uses moves like, Shockwave, Dragonbreath, Silver Wind, Giga Drain ect.. The biggest problem with this though, that I feel has been over looked, is in fact Ancient Power's 10% stat up boost.

A boost in Speed means that no OU pokemon (bar Ninjask and Deoxys S) can out speed it even with a Choice Scarf. 50% extra power attached to base 120 Sp.att, that will likely already have STABed Ancient Power, Earth Power and a base 90 Hidden Power (wow that's a lot of "powers" lol) at least for type coverage. And with the extra boost in Defenses along with 90 base HP, not even things like Bullet Punch, Mach Punch or Vaccuum wave will take it down any more. It'll sweep entire teams just on that. No other user of AncientPower, OminousWind or Silver Wind can boast that. That is too much of a good thing, seriously...

DON'T create a new base 60 move to replace Ancient Power. Create a new base 90 move to replace it instead!!

This way the move will still function the same way as Technician'd Ancient Power (without the damn side effect) AND it will function on a second ability as well. Most likely Levitate.

1st: Levitate
2nd: Technician (this is assuming a new move is granted and ancient power is not actually in his move pool)

These two I feel can complement each other in a trade for switch in ability for power play. With Levitate, grant it moves like Lava Plume, Energy Ball, Signal Beam, Discharge, Shadow Ball, Extrasensory and Flash Cannon (all move with base 80 or less) to work with. While Technician can grant a plethora of Base 90 moves, often with added effects.

Basically,
Levitate - Less power more switch in capability.
Technician - More power/move flexibility, less switch in opportunity,

Once again quoting myself.

Note - I voted for Levitate because it should be it's primary ability, with Technician as the secondary ability

I'd like to make mention that for the same "stat abuse" reasons Ancient Power should not be included in a Technicianed move pool, nor should Silver Wind or Ominous wind.

If you want to use a useful Bug or Ghost move, you'll be obliged to use Hidden Power instead. Or of course the less power Signal Beam or Shadow Ball, if they're granted in it's move pool. (again a power vs. utility compromise)

Quote myself AGAIN to save time since this seems to be a recurring argument *sigh*

Also in regard some saying that STAT BOOST may not be broken running of a base 135 move... you still have to consider that CAP5 will also have amazing type coverage at it's disposal and not just raw power.

And the comparison to Ice Beam 10% freezing. For one, that only screws ONE pokemon and not all SIX!! Also if your poke is frozen it's not "dead", they often thaw out.

Voted Levitate again btw for reasons above.

 

[jagged_angel]

Oh Vividsketch, do you really have to? We've already Read your post and I personally disagreed with it just as much then as I do know.

It would have been better if as a Levitate supporter you could respond to the good points about Ancientpower made by DJD and Sunday and the damage calcs for damage after an Ancientpower boost.

Seriously guys. Technician is not that scary, it's useful but not overpowered even with Ancientpower.

I'd also like to point out that Rockmon is going gonna get so many chances each match to use Ancientpower. Anyone who's That afraid of Ancientpower hax is gonna keep their steel, fighting and ground pokemon coming in the whole time to make rockmon's lack of knees knock together in fear. He's only going to use Ancientpower when it makes sense. So in the vast majority of matches the stat boost wont even be an issue.

 

[jagged_angel]

So, more damage calcs to demonstrate the power or lack thereof of Technician.

For all calcs I am using CAP5's stats as if they were Ancientpower boosted.

Technician'd, Ancientpower does % damage to standard sets for:
Lucario - 25-29% with Choice Specs on CAP5 36-42%
Metagross - 31-37%
Bronzong - 23-27%
Scizor - 88-104%

Damage calcs for the attacks of counters/revenge killers

Bronzong's Gyro Ball 70-83% with CAP5 no speed evs 83-99% with CAP5 max speed.
A 2HKO or OHKO with Stealth Rock support.

Lucario Mach/Bullet Punch 49-58%
A comfortable 2HKO.

CB Metagross Bullet Punch 65-77%
OHKO with SR and Life Orb damage on CAP5

CB Scizor Bullet Punch 95-112%
Pretty much OHKO.

So you see, CB Scizor is almost a counter to CAP5 even after an Ancientpower boost. All it needs to do is invest in 60HP EVs in order to survive a Technician'd Ancientpower boosted Ancientpower and OHKO back.

SD Lucario can even switch in on a Choice Specs, Ancientpower boosted Ancientpower, Swords Dance and OHKO back with Bullet or Mach Punch.

 

[Deck Knight]

So, more damage calcs to demonstrate the power or lack thereof of Technician.

For all calcs I am using CAP5's stats as if they were Ancientpower boosted.

Technician'd, Ancientpower does % damage to standard sets for:
Lucario - 25-29% with Choice Specs on CAP5 36-42%
Metagross - 31-37%
Bronzong - 23-27%
Scizor - 88-104%

Damage calcs for the attacks of counters/revenge killers

Bronzong's Gyro Ball 70-83% with CAP5 no speed evs 83-99% with CAP5 max speed.
A 2HKO or OHKO with Stealth Rock support.

Lucario Mach/Bullet Punch 49-58%
A comfortable 2HKO.

CB Metagross Bullet Punch 65-77%
OHKO with SR and Life Orb damage on CAP5

CB Scizor Bullet Punch 95-112%
Pretty much OHKO.

So you see, CB Scizor is almost a counter to CAP5 even after an Ancientpower boost. All it needs to do is invest in 60HP EVs in order to survive a Technician'd Ancientpower boosted Ancientpower and OHKO back.

SD Lucario can even switch in on a Choice Specs, Ancientpower boosted Ancientpower, Swords Dance and OHKO back with Bullet or Mach Punch.

I doubt the Specs set would be plausible if only because the lack of switching to Earth Power is a high opportunity cost. I'd be more interested in Life Orb numbers.

Oh yeah, and don't forget Steelix also takes jack damage from Specs Ancientpower, even after a boost, and has a stronger Gyro Ball than Bronzong (Steelix usually has attack EVs or Curse).

 

[Itchni]

why not just give him a good special rock move and let him have levitate too?

 

[Vividsketch]

Oh Vividsketch, do you really have to? We've already Read your post and I personally disagreed with it just as much then as I do know.

It would have been better if as a Levitate supporter you could respond to the good points about Ancientpower made by DJD and Sunday and the damage calcs for damage after an Ancientpower boost.

Seriously guys. Technician is not that scary, it's useful but not overpowered even with Ancientpower.

I'd also like to point out that Rockmon is going gonna get so many chances each match to use Ancientpower. Anyone who's That afraid of Ancientpower hax is gonna keep their steel, fighting and ground pokemon coming in the whole time to make rockmon's lack of knees knock together in fear. He's only going to use Ancientpower when it makes sense. So in the vast majority of matches the stat boost wont even be an issue.

That's really great. I'm not to argue with you guys any further except to say that you have to agree that a boost in all stats is of much greater pay off or of much greater impact then say an ice beam freeze or sand veil miss. Regardless of whether is is entirely broken, you have to agree with that much, please.

But in the mean time, why not avoid this issue all together?? Why tempt fate when you can have Technician (I'm actually in support of Technician if any body actually bothered to notice) and through the application of a new move, evade the problem that Ancient Power brings along with it??

Why is this not being noted as a viable compromise?? I think you'd gain a lot more Technician support as vast majority seem to be against it because of the problems of Ancient Power hax.

 

[X-Act]

Okay, after giving this vote about a 10 minute thought, I'm voting for Technician.

 

[brutal satyr]

technician cause ancienbtpower would rock with it we could opt it for its second ability though

 

[Mekkah]

I voted Levitate this time to enjoy the major whining about luck when this thing does get Ancientpower.

 

[Darkflagrance]

I doubt the Specs set would be plausible if only because the lack of switching to Earth Power is a high opportunity cost. I'd be more interested in Life Orb numbers.

Oh yeah, and don't forget Steelix also takes jack damage from Specs Ancientpower, even after a boost, and has a stronger Gyro Ball than Bronzong (Steelix usually has attack EVs or Curse).

But in the end, Life Orb does less damage?

 

[Nokocchi]

ROckman has 5 Weakness, two of which are quike common (Ground and Fighting)

Levitate makes it immune to Ground and allows more freedom to switch in.

Technician is not Broken, but I don't see the point of having it just for one move, which can only have up to 8 PP.

 

[Darkflagrance]

ROckman has 5 Weakness, two of which are quike common (Ground and Fighting)

Levitate makes it immune to Ground and allows more freedom to switch in.

Technician is not Broken, but I don't see the point of having it just for one move, which can only have up to 8 PP.

It also has empowered hidden powers.

 

[Imran]

Although I have not voted, I am still going to say that I have "Abstained" from this one, as I do not really have a preference for either one, and voting randomly would eb unfair. I'm still dissapointed we didn't get limber, but oh well :P

 

[Hazmat]

If technician is on this thing it will dominate the second ability (seeing as how its the diff between a 90 or 60 main STAB) (-- short of a created move.)

Levitate is a solid ability that covers a weakness, is common on a lot of pokes', isn't too fanboyish, and makes loads of sense on a multitude of levels.

 

[Goodbar]

Why are people giving us calculations of what boosted ancient powers do to pokemon that are NVE to it? That's not proving anything, that's just pointing out the obvious lol... Try HP fire 88 calcs on bronzong, earth power calcs on registeel, either on metagross... and keep in mind that at full health and boosted defense, it should be surviving most bullet punches with exception to scizor, though he may just take it.... And his spdef will be at an enormous level where he will laugh off SE attacks, for example, bulky water surfs will not 2hko if SS is also in effect. All the while carrying a pair of choice specs that don't limit him and being at a speed that lols at any revenge killer. I would bet that if this happened midgame, it'd very often be gg.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I just went to the RMT forum and looked at the first 15 OU teams posted there. I counted the number of pokemon on each team that carried a Ground, Fighting, Water, Grass or Steel attack. Here's the results:

6, 6, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 5, 5, 6, 6, 5, 6

I realize this is a laughably small sample, but still. Basically every team has 5 or more pokemon that can threaten our rockmon with a super-effective move.

Let's face it, there is a reason that Rock pokemon are rarely used in the metagame -- Rock is a shitty type! Rock pokemon have huge problems coming in, because every team is stacked with pokemon that can kill them. Heck, one of those teams above was MONO-FIRE and they have 5 pokes that can knock the hell out of CAP5! Think about that for a second. Our pokemon resists Fire and hits it SE -- and against a mono-fire team, our rockmon will have trouble switching into 5 of them. That's scary.

In my little RMT run, the pokemon that DIDN'T have an attack for CAP5 was stuff like:

Blissey - I didn't count Seismic Toss as a Fighting move. But, it doesn't matter. Blissey giggles at our special attacking pile o' pebbles.

Cresselia - Even she can carry Calm Mind and give problems to our guy.

Jolteon - Yay! We finally found a pokemon that CAP5 can safely switch in on without getting smacked for SE damage! Oh wait... it'll probably just Twave us and completely ruin our day... damn.​

I'll stop there. My point is that even the pokemon that couldn't threaten CAP5 with direct attacks, were not exactly safe to switch in on. Oh, and for those that point to this pokemon's majestic 120 special attack -- remember that our pokemon has the misfortune of being weak to some of the most defensive types in the game -- Steel, Water, and Grass. That means pokemon like Gyarados, Metagross, Heatran, Celebi, Bronzong, Suicune, Swampert, and Vaporeon are licking their chops.

Without a movepool and ability, it's hard to say what this pokemon can threaten and what pokemon will threaten it in return. But, based on typing and stats, we have some HUGE problems to overcome in the current OU metagame. I know people don't want to go overboard with this pokemon -- and I don't either. But, our Rock pokemon has its work cut out for it. Right now, I'm less concerned about all the things that will make this pokemon broken. I'm more concerned about figuring out how to make this pokemon viable at all.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Gone with Levitate for 3 reasons

1) Fits art criteria
2) Grants an immunity to EQ, which is seriously overused
3) SS Weather Ball beats Tech Ancient Power anyways

 

[X-Act]

Doug, I agree exactly with what you're saying. But, given an appropriate movepool, there might not be any Pokemon that's safe to switch into THIS Pokemon either.

It all depends on who has the momentum.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Doug, I agree exactly with what you're saying. But, given an appropriate movepool, there might not be any Pokemon that's safe to switch into THIS Pokemon either.

It all depends on who has the momentum.

No argument there. That's why I made the statement, "Without a movepool and ability, it's hard to say what this pokemon can threaten and what pokemon will threaten it in return."

I've seen lots of people mention that if this pokemon gets an AP boost that it will "sweep entire teams". I have a very hard time believing that. Just based on typing alone, I don't see this pokemon sweeping entire teams -- AP boost included.

Look at Tyranitar. It is weak to everything our pokemon is weak to. It has some additional weaknesses and some additional resistances and immunities. On the whole, its typing is roughly the same defensively as pure Rock. If anything, you could argue Tyranitar's typing is better defensively, since it gains an immunity, and immunities are a very big deal for defense. But, I'll be conservative and say it is the same.

Tyranitar has stats that put CAP5 to shame. On top of that, it has an ability that automatically damages most opponents every turn, AND that ability increases Tyranitar's Special Defense automatically on the switch in. On top of that, TTar can further boost its other stats with Dragon Dance or Curse. ON TOP OF THAT, it has a movepool almost unequaled in the game with its variety and power. Honestly, Tyranitar is about as good as you can get when it comes to stats, ability, and movepool.

Is Tyranitar broken? Not at all. It's a total beast, without question. And it is one of the most overused pokemon in the game. But, it's not broken for one simple reason -- its typing sucks hard defensively. Almost every pokemon on every team can hit Tyranitar for super-effective damage. That fact alone is the reason that Tyranitar is able to roam free in the OU tier, instead of being banished to ubers.

Our pokemon has the same defensive liability as Tyranitar -- arguably worse. We've already picked a stat spread that is far inferior to Tyranitar. None of the abilities currently being mentioned are as powerful as Sandstream. I seriously doubt we will give this thing a movepool like Tyranitar.

I'm not saying we should make this pokemon like Tyranitar. In fact, I'm saying the opposite -- there is NO WAY this pokemon can even get close to being as good as Tyranitar. And even if we did -- Tyranitar is not broken.

Technician'd AncientPower might be a big thing for this pokemon, but I have a hard time seeing ANYTHING we give this pokemon making it "broken".

 

[HD]

I feel sad :( I can't make long intellegent posts. Anyway I voted for Levitate because even one switch matters. A lot of thongs that use EQ are weak to Ice, Water and Fire. Just give one of those move types and it's threatening common EQ users(bar 'Pert) and give a stat up move (CM anyone?). Free stat up, but still weak to BPunch, Fighting types would resist most of it's moves, unless we give it Psychic/Shadow Ball.
*Note: I'm saying this if it doesn't get Technician.*