CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 10 - Counters Discussion

[jagged_angel]

I'm against Magnezone as the main counter as I believe this should be able to reliably threaten Heatran and there's no way to eliminate Heatran as a counter unless CAP7 has EQ - Magnezone cannot counter if CAP7 has EQ.
Dugtrio will be a perfect counter whether CAP7 has EQ or not so I don't think we need to worry there. Scarftran and Scarfzone are still reliable checks if CAP7 has EQ.

Here's a list of possible counters and checks for CAP7:

Counters
Dugtrio (solid counter as long as this doesn't get a physical Ice move)
Magnezone
Heatran (I'm against this)
Pyroak

Checks
Starmie
Syclant
Azelf
Latias
Salamence
Metagross
Gyarados
Zapdos
Rhyperior
Gliscor
Suicune, Swampert and other Bulky Waters

I'm sure there are plenty more possible checks but all of these can threaten CAP7 and/or have high Def (or Intimidate) to withstand its attacks.

Interestingly, adding the Elemental Punches to CAP7 makes that list alot more shaky.

 

[Frosty]

Considering that the whole point of this poke is to have a great movepool and a decent stat-spread, I don't think it is good to limit our movepool due to its possible counters (and I don't know you, but Earthquake is a pretty big move in my book)...mainly if said counters are trappers fully capable of shooting down all your scouting strategies. Scarfzone and Dugtrio are already almost fool-proof revenge killers. Honestly I don't think we need to upgrade them to the class of counters, but that is only my honest and uninformed opinion.

Want a counter? Every Bulky Water around should prove to be too much for our poke to handle. With max atk and LO (not likely, considering you want it to live long to use roar and scout more pokes) you can't even 2HKO Standand Vaporeon with Thunderpunch (only 41% with SR). Same goes for Milotic (although it has a 63% chance of being 2HKOed with SR), Slowbro, Arghonaut and I don't think I should even mention Swampert (the strongest move it can possible use other than power whip, which is superpower BTW, only deals around 34% tops). Hell, Swampert is probably the best poke to qualify as "counter", being almost impervious to CAP7's attacks and being capable of hitting back with a STAB SE Earthquake.

Another 100% counter I would consider is Pyroak. As long as we keep Stone Edge away, it should counter it nicely, having STAB Fire moves and all.

I could also mention Hippowdon, Fidgit and some other physical walls. With bad offensive STABs and a only decent atk stat it isn't hard to find counters at all. Keep Power Whip and maybe Stone Edge away and we are game, IMO.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Jagged_Angel, shouldn't Magnezone be considered a check rather than a counter in that list? You mention it being a decent check more than a counter. Salamence and Gyarados being checks is shaky. If it has the elemental punches, then switching in on it would be a very bad idea. On the same page, CAP7 can't switch into those two without dying. +1 Attack WaterFall almost OHKO it and Sala could just EQ/Fire Blast it to death.

Edit: Frosty's statement is pretty much what I was thinking in regards to CAP7's counters. Almost every Bulky Water or Ground Pokemon counter/check this creature, and we have a boatload of those Pokemon. We don't need specific counters.

 

[jagged_angel]

Yeah GT You're exactly right, I just made that list without assuming CAP7 having any specific moves so Magnezone, Gyra and Mence look alot better then. Obviously if you can target their 4x weaks they don't work too well. However I do think this should get EQ and the Punches/Fangs for semi decent coverage.

Definitely agree with Frosty's post and would be very happy if Pyroak was the best paper counter for this.

 

[Naxte]

I'm also agreeing that bulky waters should serve as decent counters, pretty much regardless of movepool (assuming only reasonable stuff, of course, and not more random stuff like Power Whip). As mentioned, Pyroak also works as a viable counter.

Beyond that, I don't really think it needs any specific counters, and don't feel that its physical movepool should be limited that much. We gave it a decent attack stat, and went with Steel/Ghost typing, and bulky waters should prove to be pretty effective counters, so I don't feel we should really hinder or limit it too much in one of its few good areas.

 

[tennisace]

If certain move helps CAP7 fulfill its goal, we will give it whatever it needs, regardless of art. Personally I think the punches are a bad idea period but that's a completely different story, and independent from art. Art means nothing in CAP, since we could viably make a Pokemon and just use a number as the sprite.

 

[1059860]

My suggestion: Things like solid ground types such as Swampert or Hippowdon, since it hit Super Effective, and logically there shouldn't be much that you can deal back to it.

 

[darkie]

Counters
Dugtrio (solid counter as long as this doesn't get a physical Ice move)

uhhhh, lol.

This is this guy using Meteor Mash off of 0 Atk EVs with a neutral nature on a 40 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio:
242 Atk vs 136 Def & 221 HP (100 Base Power): 192 - 226 (86.88% - 102.26%)

and Iron Head from 252 Atk, neutral nature:
305 Atk vs 136 Def & 221 HP (80 Base Power): 193 - 228 (87.33% - 103.17%)

 

[MapleSandwich]

I don't understand why a scout Pokémon needs Meteor Mash to do its job. It seems that this discussion has taken a twofold path: One, what counters should this Pokémon have, and this leads into the discussion of what moves should this Pokémon have? The two basically seem to go together, since for some reason the moveset isn't based on the job at hand but what counters this Pokemon should have. My suggestions is to leave this as a scout, not a Heavyweight packing all the elemental punches and EQ.

 

[darkie]

I was just using an example of a STAB move to show that Dugtrio will never counter this guy.

 

[polelover44]

I think that Pyroak should be added to the list of checks. This guy is scared of Pyroak, what with Leech Seed and Lava Plume/Flamethrower. I'm not saying counter because Pyroak could not switch in on it, take another hit, and survive.

 

[Vividsketch]

I think that in order for us to come up with a reasonable counter/check list, we need to properly access and address exactly what we want 'Scoutmon' to be able to scout/check/counter for it's self as well. We have to make sure it is secure it it purpose first.

In my opinion I think it would be wiser to go about things with more of an "all in" approach rather then placing restriction on it so soon. Allow it to cover as much of the meta game as it plausibly can with in it own current restraints, and then peg it back from there.

I say this because as it currently stands, between poor duel STAB, less then game breaking abilities, an a conservative Stat Spreed (it's only got a BSR of 'quite good' as above to 'very good' after all), it isn't go to be terribly much of a direct threat in the way some sweeper or even some walls can be. Even with an unparalleled move pool.

It doesn't have the defenses, despite typing, to play as a 'Wall'. It doesn't have the over whelming offenses and speed or STAB to play as 'Sweeper'. So it's not going to be. It's a pokemon that is not going to present direct immediate threat to the opponent. That's not it's job. It does how ever need to be able to be specific in it's task otherwise it quickly going to become useless. There fore, while not being a dominate, direct threat to it opponent initially, it still needs the luxuary of not be directly 'threaten' or 'set up fodder' for it opponent either. It need the time an ability to dictate play a little bit and not be bullied! This is were a generous 'Move Pool' comes in.

I'm not going to go into details or specific right now, but a generous move pool is not going break 'Scoutmon'. One thing it's going to suffer from big time is '4 move slot syndrome'. As I've said, it won't be a 'wall' or 'sweeper', so it's goign to need to carry alot of utility moves, like; U-turn, Substitute and Protect. It's simply not going to have the room to threaten every thing with at best 1 or 2 offensive moves running off a base 103 attack and 110 speed with no likely STAB. It's going to be tailored in is task for each team it's built into.

For example, it's already been suggested that it should not have access to the 'Elemental Punches', specifically Ice Punch. The logic behind this is that might make it to directly challenging to Dugtrio (which I don't really understand sice Duggy has a clear speed advantage anyway). But this will then hinder hit ability to be an effective deterrent to Salamence for instance. Which I think we agree is meant to be one the main scouting targets in this case! And if 'Scoutmon' does carry Ice Fang, suddenly Waters and Steel types present a problem instead.

'Scoutmon' doesn't have the potential to be a sweeper. It just doesn't. But don't limit it's ability to be target specific. Other wise what's it going to do?? 'U-turning' is not scouting. Being able to play the field, force a few switches, make the opponent play an extra turn or two here and there, dictate play and find oppertunities to have you opponent reveal more of their hand then they wanted to, gather information, and exploit weakness. That's his job right??


Sorry for tl;dr'ness, lol

 

[Yllnath]

I agree with what Frosty said and even more with Vivid.

Saying that a plethora of pokemon suddenly can't counter CAP7 anymore if it would get EQ and the elemental punches is being under the assumption it has 20 moveslots. I strongly agree on the fact that CAP7 should have some sort of unpredictfulness about it so you have to think about what to sent it to counter it. And as said before, anything with decent defences can counter it and the list of bulky waters and bulky grounds is only a small part of the list. A lot of pokemon can really hurt CAP7.
What I would indeed love to see is having a good movepool so you can, just like vivid said, tailor it to the needs of your team. Not have the identical same 4 moves on each and every CAP7 since we are not giving it any moves in the first places because we are afraid that not every pokemon can counter it.

My definite list of counters are:
ScarfTran (not regular)
Swampert (So no grass moves)
Other bulky waters and grounds who don't really care about a non-STAB T-punch or I-punch

I think that all of these can perform their jobs regardless of what moves are on CAP7.

All other previously mentioned pokes should be able to do their job of killing CAP7/forcing him out after they know EQ or the punches are missing.

 

[Deck Knight]

Bulky Waters and Bulky Grounds already counter this thing to hell and back based on stats and STAB alone, and it can't switch in on Heatran and Infernape (bar extreme luck on Close Combat)

Anyone opposing Ground moves is basically demanding this be impotent and useless, and we've basically wasted our time because all this does is bait Taunt, disabling every useful thing it can do except U-Turn.

I distinctly remember people saying we should support Quite Good because then we could be generous with movepool.

Now people are demanding we been stingy with movepool.

For a comprehensive list of pokemon this could not significantly threaten bar something extreme like Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Aqua Tail, and Head Smash:

[in no particular order]

Hippowdon (UnSTAB Ice Punch? lol)
Gliscor (Rock Polish + Roost easily defeats even Ice Punch variants)
Rhyperior (Iron Head? Pray for flinch hax.)
Skarmory
Bronzong
Jirachi
Metagross
Steelix
Arghonaut (physical attacks? What be these? Yar.)
Swampert
Milotic
Walrein
Celebi
Tangrowth
Blissey
Snorlax
Spiritomb
Zapdos

EDIT: Pyroak also walls this to hell. Even assuming Stone Edge, Stone Edge can't critical (Battle Armor), Pyroak has fire moves and Synthesis. Pyroak only has weaknesses to Rock, Flying, and Poison. Unless people are seriously going to contemplate Poison Jab, Stone Edge is the only possible method of threatening Pyroak.

 

[Thorns]

Yeah, DK has managed to put all my thoughts in a few very well written words. I also think that we should allow someone using Scout to be able to at least put up a fight against the trappers. Something as simple as Brick Break to hit Magnezone for decent damage on the switchin. Scout should he walled by most physical walls, but it should be able to batalha versus less bulky things like Salamence and Celebi.

 

[Deck Knight]

Yeah, DK has managed to put all my thoughts in a few very well written words. I also think that we should allow someone using Scout to be able to at least put up a fight against the trappers. Something as simple as Brick Break to hit Magnezone for decent damage on the switchin. Scout should he walled by most physical walls, but it should be able to batalha versus less bulky things like Salamence and Celebi.

Celebi is actually quite Bulky given people tend to max its HP. Anything with 404 HP is a pain to take down, unless its defenses are truly terrible like Drifblim, Wailord, and Rampardos.

That being said, I'm contemplating what should happen on the decent chance EoE wins art. I don't support punches on a quadruped, and Fangs are significantly less powerful (and take up valuable Heart Scale room, assuming we're going Genderless). In such an instance I would likely lend support to Aqua Tail, Earthquake, and the Elemental Fangs, since AT allows some makeup for the loss in BP of the Elemental Punches. About the only viable physical attacks I might oppose are Superpower (ignoring the established 110+ Base Attack canon trend) and Seed Bomb. Otherwise, bring on Zen Headbutt, Rock Slide, Brick Break, Bounce, and Double Kick.

I know this is Counters and not Movepool, but about the only thing Aqua Tail affects on my list is Gliscor. Tyranitar barely 2HKO's Hippowdon with Choice Banded AT, this can forget about doing that.

 

[X-Act]

As it is, if this is given only Ghost and Steel attacks, any Steel type that is not part-Psychic easily walls it (and actually so do some part-Psychic ones).

So, besides what was already mentioned, Empoleon would be a good counter. That's if we refrain from making it learn Electric attacks.

 

[sbc]

I don't want Magnezone to counter it. That means we are restricting ourselves to not having Ground attacks, "hello Heatran and other steels come and totally shit on me" and its just another incentive for latias/magnezone/etc teams.

 

[Vividsketch]

The counter list for this pokemon is going to be huge! Especially of course once the opponent discovers what offensive moves it's carrying at the time.

All this 'X pokemon will counter Scoutmon, privided it doesn't have access to Y move' business is exactly why Scoutmon DOES need access to these moves.

There are several solid enough counters already that have been mentioned regardless of it's move pool, which is enough. But on top of that there will be countless other pokemon capable of countering when Scoutmon is not carrying specific 'Y' move. And this will occur often enough because 'Move slot syndrome' makes sure of that. But this still grants Scoutmon the potential to keep these threats in check. This unpredictability in Scoutmon is necessary so that is can buy it's self enough time to perform it's task and make a difference before it's weaknesses are discovered and it's removed from the field.

With out a decent move pool, Scoutmon will become too predictable, will be immediately countered, and will fail in it's purpose.

 

[ferron]

how is it that we can put this on the CaP server, but only cyber and jagged thought of mentioning syclant? it has earthpower AND at times HP fire. another one to mention is stratagem who uses earthpower and/or flamethrower/fireblast is just about all of its sets, and is more popular that syclant

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

'Scoutmon' doesn't have the potential to be a sweeper.

Technically it does have the potential to sweep. Give it Sword Dance and a movepool with a boatload of type coverage and you're set. The only thing holding it back is lack of 90+BP moves, and the fact that they're better sweepers out there than CAP7. Other then this, I agree with you and DK, we shouldn't be stingy towards it's movepool as stated before, they're so many damn counters for CAP7 that any fear of brokeness is moot.

 

[Vividsketch]

Technically it does have the potential to sweep. Give it Sword Dance and a movepool with a boatload of type coverage and you're set. The only thing holding it back is lack of 90+BP moves, and the fact that they're better sweepers out there than CAP7. Other then this, I agree with you and DK, we shouldn't be stingy towards it's movepool as stated before, they're so many damn counters for CAP7 that any fear of brokeness is moot.

Yes, that's true. Give it Swords Dance and suddenly it can potentially sweep (though, as you rightfully pointed out, there are far better monsters for the job).

But I assume we are smart enough to realize the Swords Dance is counter productive and it will not be receiving it. In fact I suggest we be wary of any stat up move we consider giving it, especially in the event of it learning baton pass!

Any way, back on topic.....

 

[tennisace]

If we're not giving it any moves to pass, don't bother with Baton Pass since U-turn is always better than a dry-pass.

 

[Vividsketch]

If we're not giving it any moves to pass, don't bother with Baton Pass since U-turn is always better than a dry-pass.

There are still Substitutes to pass, and I'm not against passing Speed.

I'm not suggesting that Baton Pass is a superior option to U-turn, just an option. A viable one at that provided of course it is not paired with anything too advantageous. I imagine many sets with likely run Subs, and with Baton pass essentially being able to perform the same task as U-turn from a scouting point of view, it seem that quite often Baton Pass might be a preferable option.

 

[ferron]

im not sure we should discount baton pass yet since stating can help scout for arghonaut. also, we don't know if we will see a poke (made by CaP or otherwise) in our future metagame, were it will be worth dry passing instead of using u-turn (think wobb or gastrodon)

basically what i'm saying is that we should at least be willing to consider leaving the option open.