What was the purpose of creating a new move? Was it to force even more focus onto it's role as if everything else up until now wasn't focused on making a scout? Was it to give it a better STAB move than Shadow Claw? Was it because we felt like it? All these and more are what I ask when I view this discussion. Personally I thought it was so that CAP7 would have a better STAB move based on past comments, but could be wrong. Anyway, I went with Shadow Strike because to be honest, the reasons for Rift Hop and/or Stab U-Turn actually make not like it anymore.
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CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 15b - New Move Poll 2
- Thread starter Magmortified
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It doesn't have to do either as of this point. In fact, a new move is entirely unnecessary. However, we did choose to give it one. Thus, in order to make optimal use of this opportunity, we should make one based on what CAP7 actually needs and would improve it the most (of course within limits, which all the options are, so that's not a problem). Which leads me to the below...
STAB U-turn/Rift Hop do pretty much the same thing as U-turn, not really opening up any more doors for it or improving it that greatly. Shadow Strike does actually improve CAP7 though, giving it a better STAB option and thus making it a bit better offensively. Rift Hop doesn't actually offer CAP7 itself much new, and STAB U-turn even less. Shadow Strike does though, giving it much more reliable STAB and keeping U-turn for the exact same things Rift Hop would be used for. Shadow Strike makes CAP7 more balanced, improving it offensively while keeping U-turn, and gives it a slightly less redundant option to use than Rift Hop/STAB U-turn and thus is the better choice.
It's true that neither power nor scouting are inherently a better route to go than the other, as established above. Thus, it depends on the situation, specifically, what would help the Pokemon the most. Shadow Strike, giving it a better offensive option while keeping the door of U-turn open for Rift Hop's functions, meets this when compared to Rift Hop, which doesn't really improve CAP7 itself in any areas where it's hurting, basically just giving it more damage for U-turn, a move that isn't about damage in the first palace, while at the same time being an inferior STAB option to Shadow Claw.
It may not be better for scouting, but that's not a perquisite for a move for CAP7, and beyond that it's a bit better (due to making it a bit more well-rounded) and less redundant option than Rift Hop, and thus is the better option, IMO.
However you still are not addressing the point that STAB U-turn is better than Shadow Claw, which was the point of the new move. This allows it to run something like Ghost-type U-turn/Meteor Mash/Memento/Earthquake, without wasting a slot on a 70 BP un-STAB move that doesn't gain any useful coverage.
Let me put this in a different perpective:
Option A: U-turn
You use U-turn and you switch out no matter what.
Option B: Ghost-typed U-turn
You use this move and you switch out unless the poke has a Curselax (well hi free turn to curse), Blissey or Togekiss (who counters like most of the CAPs around). If the opponent has any of those you lose your best scouting move. Just like that. Add the small possibility of being hammered by CBLax Pursuit and you will have a very very fun (read: bad) situation.
This proves that, if you want to see the switch-in, Bug-type U-turn is the best option more often than not
Also, this poke was based on the entire purpose of forcing switches. Even if you pack your poke with 4 varieties of U-turn, it won't be worth shit if you can't force the opponent to switch. And how do you do that? You do that with powerful moves and, on the standard tier, powerful moves = STAB. Having reliable STAB moves goes before U-turn in terms of importance, and how do you expect to forces switches with a steel typed attack that is resisted by every bulky poke (read: Bulky Waters and Bulky Steels)around and deals super effective damage to only 2 types? Scizor can only do that because it usually packs either SD or CB to go with its 130 Base attack and a benefitial nature, while your every day CAP7 will have neither more often than not.
If you want to force switches you will need more STABs to play with. More STABs and better STABs (again, the only reason Scizor actually forces switches with U-turn is because it has 130 base attack, adamant nature and CB or SD and LO, while our poke will be lucky if it has LO and max atk). 60-70 STAB is NOT good enough. Just look at the numbers of dusknoirs that force switches with the threat of shadow punch (same BP as rift hop). This is why we need a move with at least 80 BP to serve as STAB (same as Dark Pulse, Crunch, Iron Head and Shadow Ball to give you some examples) and force switches.
To sum things up:
- This poke have no issues with detecting the switch-in, since U-turn is already a terrific option. Don't try to sell this ghost U-turn move with that argument, 'cause it is false, as U-turn, even without STAB, is the superior option, not being nullified by any type and all.
- The problem this poke do have involves reliable STAB.
- A Reliable STAB usually has at least 80 BP. Shadow Strike has that AND a great secondary effect that will net you a handful of extra 2HKOs. Therefore we need more Shadow Strike than Ghost U-turn.
Oh, and for this amusing "the opponent can switch in skarmory and make your efforts useless" argument I will give you two fun facts:
1) If you are so afraid of Skarmory, you can use Bug-type U-turn and go out. The only difference between it and the ghost typed is the difference of getting out and leaving Skarmory untouched after Leftovers and getting out only if the opponent doesn't use a normal type and leave Skarmory with 96% hp. Since getting out is the priority, Bug type is the superior option.
2) After the defense drop you can actually 2HKO Skarmory with LO Thunderpunch (standard Skarmory receives 49.10-58.08%). This means that if skarmory is stupid enough to stay in, it will only be able to get one layer of spikes down and if it moves out, congratulations! you have forced out one of the best physical walls in the metagame!
Option A: U-turn
You use U-turn and you switch out no matter what.
Option B: Ghost-typed U-turn
You use this move and you switch out unless the poke has a Curselax (well hi free turn to curse), Blissey or Togekiss (who counters like most of the CAPs around). If the opponent has any of those you lose your best scouting move. Just like that. Add the small possibility of being hammered by CBLax Pursuit and you will have a very very fun (read: bad) situation.
This proves that, if you want to see the switch-in, Bug-type U-turn is the best option more often than not
Also, this poke was based on the entire purpose of forcing switches. Even if you pack your poke with 4 varieties of U-turn, it won't be worth shit if you can't force the opponent to switch. And how do you do that? You do that with powerful moves and, on the standard tier, powerful moves = STAB. Having reliable STAB moves goes before U-turn in terms of importance, and how do you expect to forces switches with a steel typed attack that is resisted by every bulky poke (read: Bulky Waters and Bulky Steels)around and deals super effective damage to only 2 types? Scizor can only do that because it usually packs either SD or CB to go with its 130 Base attack and a benefitial nature, while your every day CAP7 will have neither more often than not.
If you want to force switches you will need more STABs to play with. More STABs and better STABs (again, the only reason Scizor actually forces switches with U-turn is because it has 130 base attack, adamant nature and CB or SD and LO, while our poke will be lucky if it has LO and max atk). 60-70 STAB is NOT good enough. Just look at the numbers of dusknoirs that force switches with the threat of shadow punch (same BP as rift hop). This is why we need a move with at least 80 BP to serve as STAB (same as Dark Pulse, Crunch, Iron Head and Shadow Ball to give you some examples) and force switches.
To sum things up:
- This poke have no issues with detecting the switch-in, since U-turn is already a terrific option. Don't try to sell this ghost U-turn move with that argument, 'cause it is false, as U-turn, even without STAB, is the superior option, not being nullified by any type and all.
- The problem this poke do have involves reliable STAB.
- A Reliable STAB usually has at least 80 BP. Shadow Strike has that AND a great secondary effect that will net you a handful of extra 2HKOs. Therefore we need more Shadow Strike than Ghost U-turn.
Oh, and for this amusing "the opponent can switch in skarmory and make your efforts useless" argument I will give you two fun facts:
1) If you are so afraid of Skarmory, you can use Bug-type U-turn and go out. The only difference between it and the ghost typed is the difference of getting out and leaving Skarmory untouched after Leftovers and getting out only if the opponent doesn't use a normal type and leave Skarmory with 96% hp. Since getting out is the priority, Bug type is the superior option.
2) After the defense drop you can actually 2HKO Skarmory with LO Thunderpunch (standard Skarmory receives 49.10-58.08%). This means that if skarmory is stupid enough to stay in, it will only be able to get one layer of spikes down and if it moves out, congratulations! you have forced out one of the best physical walls in the metagame!
Wrong, you can hammer all three Pokemon listed with Meteor Mash if they dare show their face.
Reliable STAB: Meteor Mash. Check. Coverage supporting Reliable STAB: Earthquake/Punches. Check.
Shadow Claw itself hits 15 points harder than Rift Hop, when factoring in STAB on both moves (90 v 105). That's pretty significant. Beyond that, Shadow Claw/Fighting Move/U-turn/Filler accomplishes the same general effect as Rift Hop with U-turn and being more able to do damage through Shadow Claw. Shadow Claw/Fighting Move also offers perfect neutral coverage, meaning you are able to go for specific threats in the last slot, depending on your team's needs, or throw in some sort of annoyance move in an attempt to cause switches and thus scout better. The general effect's the same, and it's able to perform the same actions, only with the results that it's Ghost STAB doesn't quite suck as much and it's U-turn, a move which isn't really about doing damage anyway, does a bit less. U-turn is also hardly a waste of a slot simply because it doesn't get STAB. Pokemon like Flygon make frequent use of it, regardless of the fact that they don't get STAB on it. This is because the point of U-turn is not about damage and coverage, but rather the ability to scout switch-ins, and on Pokemon like CAP7, the ability to switch out on Pokemon like Magnezone and Dugtrio that would trap it, without having to be holding a Shed Shell. The fact that it does a fair amount of damage is more secondary to the switching effect, being nice that you deal a decent hit on the way out but the actual amount of damage not being the draw, but rather just the fact that it does and also switches you out.
Shadow Strike being stronger than Shadow Claw just drives this point home harder, being a whole 30 points stronger than Rift Hop when factoring in STAB on both moves (90 v 120), which is obviously quite a significant difference. Having a better STAB move, especially one that will allow you to get perfect neutral coverage, is more significant than a move like U-turn, which isn't primarily focused on the damage anyway, being a bit better, and thus I feel Shadow Strike to be the better option.
This isn't Metagross. If Ambipom doesn't strike fear into them with Return, why should this with a similarly powerful, less accurate move?
85% accuracy is not what I would call "reliable," not when it has such a short list of KOs. Iron Head is reliable, and Shadow Strike has the same power as Iron Head. Too many times have I been screwed by Fire Blast missing on my Lead Blaziken.
Strawman, I voted for STAB U-turn.
PS: Steel+Ghost+Ground gives better coverage all around than Ghost+Fighting+Bug because you get the Steel/Psychic Pokemon for Super-effective.
Meteor Mash Calcs:Deck said:
Against Blissey, Max attack Neutral nature@LO vs Standard 0 HP/252 Def Bliss:
305 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (100 Base Power): 358 - 423 (54.99% - 64.98%)
Bliss Switches in and gets 2HKO'd.
Against Togekiss, " " vs Standard 252 HP/6 Def:
305 Atk vs 227 Def & 374 HP (100 Base Power): 187 - 222 (50.00% - 59.36%)
Again, 2HKO if it comes in on SR, and 75% without. However Togekiss can't do jack to this Pokemon anyway.
Against Snorlax, " " vs 4 HP/0 Def CB Lax:
305 Atk vs 166 Def & 462 HP (100 Base Power): 256 - 303 (55.41% - 65.58%)
Another Guaranteed 2HKO.
and why exactly can't you do the same with Bug-type U-turn? Hell, with Bug Type U-turn and a Ghost Reliable STAB you will have a Fighting move to go with it more often than enough, which will fare better against them. Or, better, you could just hammer them with meteor mash and use Bug U-turn to scout with no fear expecting the switch in, while with Ghost U-turn that won't be that good since you can mispredict and lose a turn. Thanks for showing me another situation where bug U-turn is superior.
I don't think you are getting my point here. Everything you can do with Ghost U-turn, you can do with Bug U-turn, but the opposite isn't true because the latter won't get you away against normal types.
As Deck Knight has said, 85% accuracy will NEVER be reliable. Also, the elemental punches are only useful if you manage to hit SE and the 4 moveslot syndrome will make that a very hard task, and 16 of the OU pokes are immune to earthquake (while only 3 are immune to ghost), making it a no so hot option in terms of being reliable (mainly if you remember that this is no 135 Base Attack Metagross).
Provided you predict them coming and act accordingly and provided the move actually hits them.
Now provided you make contact with MM, you have a 47.73% chance of 2HKO CurseLax and 100% chance of 2HKO Togekiss & Blissey. Now if you miss the tagging MM, you're might have some problems with them.
Edit: Non LO calculations in case people don't use a LO CAP7
I was unaware Standard Bliss is now Calm. Bold Blissey has 130 Def.
I'm also LOLing that you have our scout with Life Orb, instead of Leftovers or Focus Sash. I imagine many things get a 2HKO on Bliss with LO.
Bliss Switches in and gets 2HKO'd.
Switches in on what, precisely? Ghost Move? They will either T-Wave because they didn't see a Frisk message, or Flamethrower because they did.
Standard Togekiss probably can't, but Togekiss can learn Flamethrower, and Thunder-Wave without Limber.
Indeed. I am impressed by your boosted 2HKOs from your 85% accuracy move, with Stealth Rock assumed in one particular instance.
I voted Rift Hop
Rift Hop IS a STAB U-Turn, that actually helps whatever pokemon you switch to as well as getting CAP7 out of there. It does U-Turn's job better and has the STAB bonus.
If Shadow Strike wins though it should be renamed. I agree with a previous poster (I forgot who), CAP7 could be a sweeper if it was given Shadow Strike.
Rift Hop IS a STAB U-Turn, that actually helps whatever pokemon you switch to as well as getting CAP7 out of there. It does U-Turn's job better and has the STAB bonus.
If Shadow Strike wins though it should be renamed. I agree with a previous poster (I forgot who), CAP7 could be a sweeper if it was given Shadow Strike.
Shadow Strike is a far more superior option to Rift Hop. I'm not stating my reasons for a third time, so you can check the previous poll thread for them.
Ghoul Slash?
Midnight Rage?
Ghastly Claw?
Frightful Fang?
Ethereal Slam?
Doom Rush?
Dark and Deadly Demolition Dash of the Damned?
Meh, I can live with Shadow Strike.
I think Deck Knight has summed up all I was thinking. :| If STAB U-Turn were to make it, or Rift Hop, I'd rather use Bug typed U-Turn. I don't want my U-Turn to fail against normal types, and I don't want my STAB move to switch me out.
You've made Kanghaskan, Vigoroth and Slaking sad. :(
Rift Hop
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