^ Wouldn't all those options implies that CAP7 could either outspeed them or can actually survived the boosted move or SE move thrown at him. They're many factors we have to take into consideration. Admittedly switching into a +1 DDmence or Dos might not be the smartest idea known to man.
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CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 7 - Stat Rating Poll 1
- Thread starter Magmortified
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Well, no one really likes switching into a +1 DD mence. I was talking about him switching into us. And I think it's already been pretty much decided that CAP7 is running at least 110 speed, which I agree on. So we will outspeed Mence before it's first DD. And we could just roar straight on turn 1 if we see him. Or do other nasty stuff to it.
Bolded the key factor here. If he is coming into you, then yes...you don't need awesome power to force it to switch because you can alway cripple it with status moves or whatnot. Now we we're talking CAP7 coming into Mence then I'm sorry pal but you're fucked eight ways from Sunday. None of the stat spread made have what it takes to survive anything Mence, Dos, T-tar, or pretty much a boatload of Pokemon can throw at without either high defense or heavy defensive investments.
We still got to be aware of the fact that giving too low of an offensive stat isn't good either.
Voted Quite good
So we want CAP7 to be a Counter for those pokemon?!?!? Because last time I checked, the definition of a counter was that it could switch into a pokemon fairly unharmed and present a huge threat to that pokemon causing it to switch out.
What you just said, almost makes me believe that you want CAP7 to be a counter to Mence, Dos, T-tar and the boatload of pokemon. I think your logic is faulty and "fucked eight ways from Sunday", whatever that is.
CAP 7 is a scout, not a sweeper, not a counter, not a massive force to be reckoned with, not a etc. For some reason, a lot of people keep mixing up those definitions. It was never said that Scoutmon should be able to switch in on the entire damn metagame, cause all of them to shudder in fear and force them to switch. We might just as well build Arceus 2 with better stats if we want to do that. There should Always be pokemon into which you don't want to sent in your pokemon. It's called being balanced. If I know my pokemon x is going to be sent to the moon on turn 1, I will not sent it in, I'll sent someone in that is better to handle the situation.
As for the specific Mence in question, saying that CAP7 should be able to come in on a +1 DDMence.. Have you even began to wonder how strange that is. The entire metagame is slaughtered by DDMence. It's being discussed as a suspect for that simple reason. Yet, somehow, magically, CAP7 should be able to come in AND even be able to force it out?
Come on everybody, we need to vote for excellent stats because otherwise we can't switch in on a +1 DDMence and force it out.. /End sarcasm.
Useless after a Speed boost unless you yourself are Scarfed. Say hello to Earthquake.
Requires you to already be in, and for your opponent not to have a sleeping pokemon. If you're already in, Ice Beam would always be superior.
Also requires you to already be in, and requires large amounts of prediction, in addition to opening you up to attack.
Also requires you to already be in, and presumes that, at least in the case of DDMence, it's carrying Fire Fang and not Fire Blast, since it can KO with -1 Atk Fire Blast just as easily as it can +1 Fire Fang.
Easily the most viable option you've listed, especially with Choice Scarf. However, it only tends to work once and next time Mencecomes in, it will be Scarf Mixmence.
+1 EQ still does loads of damage, and you could end up knocking off a Band or Scarf or something that's still fairly scary without being locked into one move, e.g. Metagross.
And all of them are basically children's playthings once your opponent is set up.
What you aren't getting is that having the option to KO Mence and Gyara with 4x moves does not equal sweeper.
Clefable can KO Mence with Ice Beam unboosted given enough SA EV's. It can also do half the things on your list (Encore, Knock Off, Charm). Is Clefable (nonCM) a Sweeper? No, Clefable is not a sweeper. So why then, when Salamence is already in, do people not switch to Clefable? Or, if they do, they use Ice Beam instead of Knock Off, Trick, or Encore?
I am working from the assumption that your opponent's sweeper is already in, and our scout pokemon is not, and therefore must use it's resistances to predict a switchin. You are working from the assumption our scout pokemon is already in and the opponent has not set up. Your assumption is in my view unrealistic, because for most of the battle, 5 other pokemon are going to be in the active position.
Ice Beam is part of Movepool. Playing games with sweepers turns this into a toy soldier, not a scout.
Because it isn't. It's supposed to come in on the DD, and then either because it's Scarfed or has Sash or Fire Resist berry, survive Earthquake or Fire Blast with a small sliver of health left and threaten that particular opponent with a KO. Scarfed is the only thing that gets in a shot scoff free, and a Scarf'd pokemon is a second class scout (Trick) and a third class sweeper (relies on every member of the opponents team having a 4x weakness)X-Act said:
Of Yilnath's list of moves, Encore and Trick are the only moves that can effectively be used once the opponent is set up, both assuming you have a Scarf so you outspeed. Encore still has 90% accuracy, it isn't foolproof.
It tells me that when you have 130 Base Attack, Technician, Swords Dance, Agility, Priority moves, Impressive offensive coverage on your primary offensive stat, and outspeed and OHKO Tyranitar, you're a physical sweeper of the first order. BSR fails utterly to account for movepool or Ability.
Registeel, in direct contrast to Scizor, has a BSR rating of 531 (Excellent). Clearly its Steel typing and a high BSR have propelled it to the peak of OU.
I want this to be able to threaten those dangerous sweepers who have an achilles heel. Short of a miracle this won't be able to break CM Jirachi or Mixed Defensive Dusknoir with Pain Split, nor do anything of note against the likes of Snorlax and Blissey with moves not named Focus Punch, or Swampert or Hippowdon with moves not named Grass Knot.
My point was exactly this. From what I saw in the base stats thread, people are assuming that this Pokemon's offensive movepool will be great, "because we need to threaten Pokemon X, Y, Z, A, B, C, alpha, omega, phi and zeta". That's why we need to be careful with the stats.
I assure you that at least on my part, I have ensured that this can only OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame assuming Life Orb and the following moveset:
Iron Head/Flash Cannon/Shadow Claw/Shadow Ball/Earthquake/Hidden Power [Fire]/Focus Punch/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Signal Beam/Grass Knot
How is 'quite good' a letdown? I agree with darkie. If we give this a good movepool, combined with its good resistances and above average stats ('quite good' is two steps above average), it's definitely not a letdown. It doesn't need huge stats to do its job -- if it does its job well, it's a success. There is such a thing as overkill.
I guess it's an obvious step that a scout should force switches to reveal the person's response and to a slight degree a) how that person plays b) what they might be carrying if they stay in. Obviously we don't want our scout to be walled TOO easily, and we don't want to bring it in on things that wall it (I'm assuming no one here is silly). Forcing the other person to make a guess at what we have and deal with it accordingly is a better way to force switches than just be a battering ram. Battering rams are more easily walled than unpredictable things in a sense -- if it has too good stats, giving it a too diverse movepool is risking either brokenness or creating a sweeper instead. A movepool is more important here; if they know what you're carrying every time (think Garchomp or Froslass, which would make terrible scouts) then all you're going to end up is with people packing one surefire counter and then luring it out. I'd like to think we can give this a broader scope, where it can be dealt with in a variety of ways, but also pose a variety of threats to force all kinds of switches.
Since when did CAP7 have to be able to OHKO Salamence/Gyarados/Tyranitar? I thought its purpose was to find out information about the team, not kill it. That's the sweepers' job.
For the record, 80/80/80/50/80/110 (speed last) gives an average rating. I'm not saying run that spread, that's just an example of how decent defences, decent attack and a good amount of speed give low ratings, so anything above quite good or in the top end of quite good will be too powerful statwise to have a true scouting movepool.
If you are not satisfied with my example, I want to see a definition of good defences (given the number of weaknesses and resistances provided by ghost/steel typing) and good offences (given that this pokemon is to be significantly biased towards physical).
I voted good by the way, but quite good is fine by me too.
For the record, 80/80/80/50/80/110 (speed last) gives an average rating. I'm not saying run that spread, that's just an example of how decent defences, decent attack and a good amount of speed give low ratings, so anything above quite good or in the top end of quite good will be too powerful statwise to have a true scouting movepool.
If you are not satisfied with my example, I want to see a definition of good defences (given the number of weaknesses and resistances provided by ghost/steel typing) and good offences (given that this pokemon is to be significantly biased towards physical).
I voted good by the way, but quite good is fine by me too.
My feelings as well.
It'll have an extensive movepool
It already has fantastic typing
Giving it far-above-average stats will change this guy's purpose from being a scout to a sweeper.
You seriously misunderstand my post and is now trying to put words within my mouth. First off, I already fucking know it suppose to be a "pure" scout and not a counter, if I wanted a counter I would have voted for one. The entire community is all for making something "pure" whatever in terms of concept.
Second off, if you look at my first sentence, I was actually agreeing with you on the fact that Scoutmon doesn't need huge offensive scores to scare away things when it has other ways of doing. You force many of switch with status moves, Trick, etc though majority of them require you to already be within the battlefield.
Lastly, when I said it should "survive" moves, I meant to not have it die instantly upon switching in any neutral or NVE attack. I didn't specifically say it had to come in on them, take less than 50% from anything a Pokemon could throw at, and force to switch or choke on a move that deals 85%+ damage (This goes to X-act who suddenly believe that the word "survive" in Pokemon = coming in unscratched and/or having more than 60%+ HP left). Do you want a Pokemon that can't even switch in on neutral to NVE moves because it's defensive stat are soo poor that it makes Butterfree look like a tank? Surely you don't want that, you want something that can at least survive one or two strong moves thrown by your opponent if need be. I mean, what's the point of having a scout if your scout dies the instant it's sent out?
And now, it's likely to go to a final round no matter what.
Quite Good works just fine imo. Like mentioned before stats aren't as vital as the movepool on a poke with this purpose.
Went with Very Good. Quite Good is just too low to make this effective at its job, IMO. As Deck Knight pointed out, such a stat total would basically be asking for Intimidaters like Gyarados and Salamance to come in and set up on it, since its attack with just be passable and its special attack will be really mediocre, so it won't be able to rely on that to stop them
Yes, it will be able to draw them out and scout them. But with low to average defenses, and not too much offensive power to threaten with, it will basically wind up being dead-weight beyond that. Yes, you can scout them and see what set they're running. But when the comes at the cost of simply letting come in and set up on you, it makes the idea of giving a teamslot to such a Pokemon really questionable.
Very Good doesn't have thses problems though. With a Very Good rating, you can invest some more in special attack to actually threaten Intimidaters, and can also invest a bit more in defense to make sure it can actually manage to hold on in doing so, and threaten the opponent with its offensive capabilities, causing a switch. Thus, Very Good is the way to go for me.
Yes, it will be able to draw them out and scout them. But with low to average defenses, and not too much offensive power to threaten with, it will basically wind up being dead-weight beyond that. Yes, you can scout them and see what set they're running. But when the comes at the cost of simply letting come in and set up on you, it makes the idea of giving a teamslot to such a Pokemon really questionable.
Very Good doesn't have thses problems though. With a Very Good rating, you can invest some more in special attack to actually threaten Intimidaters, and can also invest a bit more in defense to make sure it can actually manage to hold on in doing so, and threaten the opponent with its offensive capabilities, causing a switch. Thus, Very Good is the way to go for me.
Voted Very Good.
the fact is, that even if gyara or mence come in on you, that you will be faster than them on their first turn, which means to can u-turn away if you predict an earthquake, roar/whirlwind stat-down or status them if you expect them to statup, etc.
ex.gyarados switches in on CaP7. you get intimidated, causing you to do some attack that will do little to it. in the next round you scareyface/t-wave/WoW gyarados, while it either earthquakes and kills you, or does a DD imagining you do be set-up bait. whether CaP7 survives or not, you've just severly hampered its ability to sweep, AND anything that switches in from then on isn't intimidated. all in all, it will have done it's scoutly duty by finding out what the enemy has, and giving you the ability to deal wth it.
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