CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 12a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Ash Borer]

I'm going with Vacuum Wave, IIRC CAP8 has no priority or fighting moves, this fits both without being too powerful. I'd also prefer Surf/Hydro Pump over fire moves. Aqua Tail is in Allowed, so why shouldn't Surf be?

the only thing that vacuum wave breaks is tyranitar, but even then with the sdef boost in hte sandstorm, it probably doesnt do too much, maybe some calcs should be run.

 

[Veedrock]

I'm going with Vacuum Wave, IIRC CAP8 has no priority or fighting moves, this fits both without being too powerful. I'd also prefer Surf/Hydro Pump over fire moves. Aqua Tail is in Allowed, so why shouldn't Surf be?

Because Aqua Tail is coming off of a 60 Base attack.

A priority attack is not a 'must have' on any pokemon, especially a wallish pokemon. That's been the only reasoning for having it at all. I see nothing wrong with not having priority. I'm especially against Vacuum Wave as it's a special fighting move.

252+ Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior: 27.76% - 33.15%
252+ Vs. 4/0 Tyranitar (+SS): 33.92% - 40.94%
252+ Vs. 252/136 Steelix: 28.81% - 33.90%)

Despite being 40 Base power, it still stings its main targets. Unallowed.

EDIT: I neglected to realize CAP8 is faster than those 3 anyways. Regardless, I still don't see the 'need' for priority, and still think it should be unallowed.

 

[Ash Borer]

Because Aqua Tail is coming off of a 60 Base attack.

A priority attack is not a 'must have' on any pokemon, especially a wallish pokemon. I see nothing wrong with not having one. I'm especially against Vacuum Wave as it's a special fighting move.

252+ Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior: 37.10% - 44.09%
252+ Vs. 4/0 Tyranitar (+SS): 33.92% - 40.94%
252+ Vs. 252/136 Steelix: 28.81% - 33.90%)

Despite being 40 Base power, it still stings its main targets. Unallowed.

you do realize all those "targets" are maimed heavily by surf, the only thing that vacuum wave could be ground breaking against is tyranitar. even then it is a 3 hit. not to mention the fact that if cap8 is carrying vacuum wave, it will probably have its two stab attacks, and a filler, this filler may be fire blast, or surf, so if it has surf, things like those guys are done, but with fire blast it 3 hits tyranitar, and rhyperior, risking cap8s live against huge earthquakes.

 

[Serpent]

I know priority isn't a must, but it would be nice. It doesn't do too much damage. It's just a nice move to finish pokes off or revenge kill (think bullet punch). And seeing as Cyzir's design has officaly won, Tri-Attack seems all the nicer.

 

[10fore]

Because Aqua Tail is coming off of a 60 Base attack.

A priority attack is not a 'must have' on any pokemon, especially a wallish pokemon. I see nothing wrong with not having one. I'm especially against Vacuum Wave as it's a special fighting move.

252+ Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior: 37.10% - 44.09%
252+ Vs. 4/0 Tyranitar (+SS): 33.92% - 40.94%
252+ Vs. 252/136 Steelix: 28.81% - 33.90%)

Despite being 40 Base power, it still stings its main targets. Unallowed.

Against steelix, he gets overheat which will maul steelix into submission, and a super effective vacuum wave against rhyperior is weaker than STAB dragon pulse, for example. And I feel like rhyperior and steelix aren't going to be running enough speed for the priority to make a difference ever. (unless rock polish rhyperior or something, but even then who would stay in and attack? You'd have to be crazy to want to take that earthquake.)

And the 3ko against ttar isn't so bad. TTar can still counter him, it just means that if DDTar doesn't get to set up as egregiously.

 

[Ash Borer]

I know priority isn't a must, but it would be nice. It doesn't do too much damage. It's just a nice move to finish pokes off or revenge kill (think bullet punch). And seeing as Cyzir's design has officaly won, Tri-Attack seems all the nicer.

I see you have a low post count so you probably dont know. But, dont base arguements for attacks on "flavour" e.g. it could a pair of giant flying lips that learns focus punch. For this discussion it all has to do with competitive viablility, nothing to do with what the pokemon looks like.

 

[Hazmat]

I think he should get Weather Ball. It grants weather support options, and could potentially give him a strong water-based attack for grounds while remaining a strong set of resistances for RD teams, SD teams, or hail teams.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

252+ Vs. 4/0 Rhyperior: 27.76% - 33.15%
252+ Vs. 4/0 Tyranitar (+SS): 33.92% - 40.94%
252+ Vs. 252/136 Steelix: 28.81% - 33.90%)

Based on Veedrock's calculations, I actually support Vacuum Wave. Surf does more damage to those Pokemon, and it outspeeds those three. Really, how likely is it that you'll be using max SpAtk+ anyway? Basically, Vacuum Wave just means that it can check popular threats like DD Tar and Stratagem.

 

[sbc]

Explosion is both allowed and controversial?

 

[Raj]

It seems Cyzir has compiled a list completely separate of Cyber's. Major discrepencies between the two are Explosion, Spacial Rend, and Mist Ball- at least from what I noticed that bothered me. I'm all for Spacial Rend and Mist Ball, though I could care less about Explosion. If it gets it, neat, if not, oh well. However, the main argument against Spacial Rend and Mist Ball is that they're exclusive. That's no argument at all. If art has nothing to do with movepool, then exclusiveness should not be either. Latino made a good point in chat- by limiting this movepool we're making a shit Pokemon that will have no niche. Spacial Rend is just a good move in general that much like our created Shadow Strike has a neat side effect.

 

[Ybbob]

Mist Ball is useless, Psychic does a much better job, so there is no reason for it.

Spacial Rend is unallowed, see DK's reasoning. It adds uneeded power and there is no reason to have it when you have Dragon Pulse which all other dragon's have to use.

Vacumn Wave should be allowed, it's only real purpose is to finish off a weakened TTar or Rhyperior only after they've Rock Polished or DDed.

 

[TPM]

Tri-Attack for Allowed.
There is no harm in putting it there, is there?

 

[Objection]

Tri-Attack for Allowed.
There is no harm in putting it there, is there?

I thought we were focusing specifically on competitive moves? Can you justify the competitive usefulness of Tri Attack? Maybe it might make it into the non-competitive section of the movepool otherwise?

 

[Joatmon]

Tri-Attack does have competitive value I would say, serving as a VERY neutral attack that isn't resisted by too many pokemon that are already hit neutral by Thunderbolt or Dragon Pulse. Allowed.

Vacuum Wave should also be allowed. Surf does more to those targets anyways, and I wouldn't have planned Stratagem to be a check at all to this pokemon (I cannot wait for the name poll; calling this CAP8 is so annoying).

Explosion and Self-Desitruct definitely unallowed. It completely gets rid of Blissey and Snorlax as potential counters, and it is fast enough to cripple even several pokemon who resist it. This is a no go for me.

Weather Ball could easily be allowed. In sandstream, it is a special rock move. Thunderbolt already hits many flying types hard, and the only thing Rock gives coverage on is Syclant and Salamence really. It is already likely getting a Fire move, so sunny day isn't going to be a big deal, likewise with rain, and Hail means an Ice move that would only hit Salamence and Flygon harder, whom I believe Dragon Pulse hits just as hard or even harder factoring in STAB?

More opinions to come.

EDIT:

I actually do not like Extrasensory or a psychic move all that much. It prevents bulky fighting types from coming in, especially Revenankh, whom I feel would be a decent enough counter after playtesting. However, I won't vote either way on a Psychic move, as fightings wouldn't suffice as counters as much as Tyranitar or Blissey would.

Spacial Rend should be Unallowed. Sure this pokemon is bulky and meant to take hits longer, so Dragon Pulse fits this rather nicely, but that critical hit ratio absolutely kills it for me here. I would rather go up against Draco Meteor than Spacial Rend. (Perhaps some people will criticize me for this, but in my experience moves with critical hit rates are rather dangerous)

EDIT AGAIN:

Pending:
Explosion
Selfdestruct
Mist Ball

I have stated my opinions on the first to moves, but I believe Mist Ball should be Unallowed. A 50% chance to increase the ability to take special hits is crazy for me, and no way would I want that.

Controversial:
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Lava Plume

Flamethrower for allowed, the others for not allowed. I just feel that Fire Blast and Lava Plume with their Power/burn rate respectively would make CAP8 too powerful, whilst flamethrower is relatively low in power to those, and allows it to combat Jirachi and Scizor more often. This thing will be THE Scizor counter, but I don't want it to threaten other pokemon too much, especially Celebi who doesn't Like Flamethrower as it is.

Hydro Pump
Surf

Surf for allowed. Hydro Pump for Unallowed. Surf won't be too threatening to Tyranitar, who may be one of the best counters to this as far as I can see, but Hydro Pump is way too much for, providing extremely powerful coverage with a Dragon Move. If anything, I want Water/Fire moves to be mutually exclusive on this pokemon in the same sense arghonaut can't have Recover and iirc Bulk Up.

Focus Punch
Super Power
Earthquake
Focus Blast

All unallowed. Focus Punch and Super Power are no-goes for me on a count of Blissey, Snorlax, and Tyranitar. Earthquake and Focus Blast for essentially the same thing, though Earthquake more for the fact it might hit Steels investing a bit in Special defense to beat this thing. I don't want this thing to be able to beat all of its potential counters x____x

Unallowed:
Aura Sphere
Earth Power
Close Combat
Hammer Arm
Cross Chop
Grass Knot
Spacial Rend - Didn't see this earlier; good. :D

 

[TPM]

Tri-Attack gets many neutral hits, as well as some cool side-effects, making it competitive.

 

[Shade of Elysia]

Yeah, I agree that it should get Weather Ball. It gives the interesting option of a weather user if you are so inclined.

 

[Ybbob]

I think this is a good representation of the discussion in this topic, and to update Cyzir's list.

Allowed:
Thunderbolt
Discharge
Thunder
Charge Beam
Zap Cannon
Volt Tackle
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Claw
Outrage
Dragonbreath
Draco Meteor
Shadow Ball
Ancientpower
Weather Ball
Vacumn Wave

Controversial:
Flamethrower
Fire Blast
Surf
Hydro Pump
Earthquake
Focus Punch
Superpower
Hammer Arm
Psychic
Mist Ball/Luster Purge
Tri Attack

Unallowed:
Cross Chop
Close Combat
Explosion/Selfdestruct
Aura Sphere
Focus Blast
Earth Power
Grass Knot
Spacial Rend
Ice Beam

Also, about Tri Attack, CAP8 already has STAB Dragon type moves, so what it the point in adding Tri Attack? Dragon's only resist, Steel, also resists Tri Attack, so it would just be a useless addition. It could be used as a non-competitive attack, but we're just discussing what's useful competitively.

 

[Shade of Elysia]

Also, about Tri Attack, CAP8 already has STAB Dragon type moves, so what it the point in adding Tri Attack? Dragon's only resist, Steel, also resists Tri Attack, so it would just be a useless addition. It could be used as a non-competitive attack, but we're just discussing what's useful competitively.

But don't forget the 20% chance to freeze, paralyze or burn. That's a very useful secondary effect.

[offtopic]Also, yoouuu jackass for stealing my avi. :P[/offtopic]

 

[Ash Borer]

But don't forget the 20% chance to freeze, paralyze or burn. That's a very useful secondary effect.

It should be there as a non-competitive move, the only reason to use a non-stabbed tri attack would be serene grace, or surf + tri-attack for coverage.

 

[Ybbob]

It's useful, but not enough to be competitive. Only reason it would competitive would be Serene grace. Still, it should be controversial since a lot of people apparently want it.

Also, I liked the avatar, so I stole it. Lulz

 

[Joatmon]

But don't forget the 20% chance to freeze, paralyze or burn. That's a very useful secondary effect.

[offtopic]Also, yoouuu jackass for stealing my avi. :P[/offtopic]

It has static for a 30% chance of para, and possibly flamethrower/lava plume for burn. Freeze is the only unique effect that comes out of this; I had actually totally forgotten about the side effects.

 

[Shade of Elysia]

It has static for a 30% chance of para, and possibly flamethrower/lava plume for burn. Freeze is the only unique effect that comes out of this; I had actually totally forgotten about the side effects.

The freeze is still useful, and if you run Shield Dust you won't have Static. This allows pretty good chances for statuses without wasting a movepool slot or using a circumstantial ability.

 

[Ybbob]

Thunder Wave and Discharge will be more reliable and far more useful in any possible way, so even if Tri-Attack is added, no one will use it, not even the status abusing sets.

 

[Joatmon]

I am not questioning how often it would be used, rather the legality of it. There is no reason for it to be unallowed, and it does have some competitive value, whether or not other moves have more.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Focus Punch
Super Power
Earthquake
Focus Blast

All unallowed. Focus Punch and Super Power are no-goes for me on a count of Blissey, Snorlax, and Tyranitar. Earthquake and Focus Blast for essentially the same thing, though Earthquake more for the fact it might hit Steels investing a bit in Special defense to beat this thing. I don't want this thing to be able to beat all of its potential counters x____x

What!? Rhyperior and Steelix can take an earthquake from CAP8 and sent this fool packing with their stabbed Earthquakes, hell the only Steel type that is considered a counter towards CAP8 is Steelix. Heatran was never considered a "counter", Maggy isn't even a check, and most steel type are sure as hell won't like taking stabbed TBs to the face.

Focus Punch is too prediction based to totally rely on and one would have to go Max attack to bring it to it's fullest, highly laughable considering CAP8 has better sp.atk. No fool would use it on a DD set, same goes for SuperPower as the atk&def drop undermines that set as a whole. The only move I agree on is Focus Blast.