Charizard's spread is 534, which is not that high. And besides, we always went through the 500 roof. I don't see any problem with it.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 4 - Style Bias Discussion
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Personally I think offensive is the best option.
The best way I could think of to make sure the opponent won't use secondary moves is by applying a big deal of pressure to it. For example, if I have a Celebi out and I know that the opponent has a very powerful poke that will switch in on my thunder wave, I won't give it the opportunity and will either switch out or try an old fashioned offensive move. And for that to happen, you will need a poke capable of OHKOing or at least dealing insane damage to most secondary users, while being fast enough to run taunt effectively, and both are qualities of offensive pokes. Not Bulky offense like Metagross or Gallade or Gyarados, but all-out offense, like say Gengar or Azelf.
In others words, I feel that high speed and high *insert offensive stat* are pretty much requirements for CAP9, and only an all-out offensive spread can give that.
The best way I could think of to make sure the opponent won't use secondary moves is by applying a big deal of pressure to it. For example, if I have a Celebi out and I know that the opponent has a very powerful poke that will switch in on my thunder wave, I won't give it the opportunity and will either switch out or try an old fashioned offensive move. And for that to happen, you will need a poke capable of OHKOing or at least dealing insane damage to most secondary users, while being fast enough to run taunt effectively, and both are qualities of offensive pokes. Not Bulky offense like Metagross or Gallade or Gyarados, but all-out offense, like say Gengar or Azelf.
In others words, I feel that high speed and high *insert offensive stat* are pretty much requirements for CAP9, and only an all-out offensive spread can give that.
Offensive or Somewhat Offensive.
Stopping the secondary shouldn't just be about resisting it and clearing the effect. It has a great offensive typing. As others have said, it must put pressure on and punish the users of secondary effects, not just getting rid of them. Several Pokemon already do that just fine, especially Fidgit.
I know this conflicts with my vote for poison before but now that it's officially a Dark/Ground rather than a Dark/Poison I've realized how much better it would be as an offensive Pokemon.
Stopping the secondary shouldn't just be about resisting it and clearing the effect. It has a great offensive typing. As others have said, it must put pressure on and punish the users of secondary effects, not just getting rid of them. Several Pokemon already do that just fine, especially Fidgit.
I know this conflicts with my vote for poison before but now that it's officially a Dark/Ground rather than a Dark/Poison I've realized how much better it would be as an offensive Pokemon.
Running by my previous theory of "we want to encourage direct damage", I reckon offensive over somewhat offensive would work best. While high attack and high speed may make short work of secondary effect users, low defences will mean that pokemon that rely more on direct damage will be good checks to CAP9, while in turn being checked by those that rely on secondary effects.
Rock Paper Scissors.
EDIT:
Rock Paper Scissors.
EDIT:
We've given this pokemon five weaknesses already. Even if we give it Magic Guard and Sticky Hold to prevent almost all secondary effects, or Filter or Poison Heal to increase CAP9's viability, a movepool like Mew's is not going to be enough to make this thing viable. I reckon we will need high numbers to make CAP9 any good, but that doesn't mean to say that we can't have high numbers all around bar one or two stats.
Without getting into a pointless argument about whether 534 is or is not "that high," this is still not so much an argument as it is a conclusory statement. Yes, it is true that we have always broken 500 in the past. This is no reason for us to continue to do so. Scizor is #1 in use with a BST of only 500, while Breloom and Skarmory make the top 25 with totals of just 460 and 465 respectively. Leaning on big numbers is a good way to make a Pokemon viable, but it is not the only way. I would like to at least keep the option open to explore other avenues. If we want CAP9 to be able to take some hits, let's make it Somewhat Offensive.
This is the best argument I've read thusfar for a push to even further offensive heights.
But I don't think CAP9 will have a lot of success if it's constantly dreading coming in on a Surf or Waterfall. Some Bulkiness does seem necessary, although I could see a build on the borderline of Offensive and Somewhat Offensive (right around 20) would help it to two both it's required goals: 1) hit hard enough to knock out Secondary Users, 2) live long enough to try it more than once.
I feel the posts answering those calls for it to be more defensive have answered those concerns very well. I think the issue here is keeping in mind the overall goals of CAP9 (hitting hard enough to Stop the Secondary and not just Wall the Secondary,) that at least somewhat offensive style bias is needed to that end.
And some people seem to be poll-jumping on BST. That will be dealt with in a later thread.
It's all quite simple really.
Postulate: We want a Pokemon that can a) Switch in on a secondary user and b) pose a threat to that same secondary user.
Therefore, in order to perform both functions CAP9 should be balanced defensively and offensively. Therefore, Somewhat Defensive and Somewhat Offensive are the two best choices.
CAP9 is Dark/Ground, a predominantly offensive typing.
Therefore, the best style bias has to be Somewhat Offensive.
Postulate: We want a Pokemon that can a) Switch in on a secondary user and b) pose a threat to that same secondary user.
Therefore, in order to perform both functions CAP9 should be balanced defensively and offensively. Therefore, Somewhat Defensive and Somewhat Offensive are the two best choices.
CAP9 is Dark/Ground, a predominantly offensive typing.
Therefore, the best style bias has to be Somewhat Offensive.
Somewhat Offensive
Basically, the same reasons as bubmaniacbob. The CAP should be able to punish the secondary user, and be able to hold its own defensively against those secondary users. I'm not saying that fully offensive Pokemon have no defenses; I'm just saying that it should be as balanced as possible.
Basically, the same reasons as bubmaniacbob. The CAP should be able to punish the secondary user, and be able to hold its own defensively against those secondary users. I'm not saying that fully offensive Pokemon have no defenses; I'm just saying that it should be as balanced as possible.
@dorkknight23 and bugmaniacbob
I agree that Objection's post the best reasoning so far for Offense. However, I also followed bugmaniacbob's reasoning up to the point of deciding between Somewhat Offensive and Somewhat Defensive. I simply disagree that offense/defense should be dictated by typing. Objection's reasoning is why I settled on Somewhat Offensive. You need pressure, but you need to be able to apply that pressure repeatedly.
Also, dorkknight23, I hope you weren't referring to me about poll jumping. If so, re-read and you'll see that I was specifically requesting that we leave BST open for now.
I agree that Objection's post the best reasoning so far for Offense. However, I also followed bugmaniacbob's reasoning up to the point of deciding between Somewhat Offensive and Somewhat Defensive. I simply disagree that offense/defense should be dictated by typing. Objection's reasoning is why I settled on Somewhat Offensive. You need pressure, but you need to be able to apply that pressure repeatedly.
Also, dorkknight23, I hope you weren't referring to me about poll jumping. If so, re-read and you'll see that I was specifically requesting that we leave BST open for now.
I actually like Somewhat Offensive. Somewhat offensive does not necessarily mean that the pokemon is totally weak -- Gyarados, Heracross, and Machamp can hit like fucking trucks. Comparing this pokemon to others, I can see this pokemon being able to switch in and be a menace. Something totally Offensive would be a bit more difficult to switch in as easy as it should. Somewhat offensive is still able to put pressure on the opponent as well, so I'm throwing my support for that atm.
Gyarados, Heracross, Machamp... Don't you find something common among them? Yes, they can hit only on one side of the spectrum (Physical or Special). This means that, barring "something else" (setup moves like Dragon Dance, "trump cards" like Dynamicpunch etc), you are bound to get utterly walled by a wall of choice. And since both physical and special dedicated walls (Skarmory and Blissey in the first place) are common secondary-effect users, CAP9's job is going to be terribly compromised if we let him getting walled this way. I think we really need to have CAP9 being able to go mixed. But a spread which have good Attack AND special atk (possibly at least 90 in both) will probably end up being offensive if we give to CAP9 the speed it needs to not get slaughtered by shit like Starmie.
It is not to mean that we should beat anything. The great amount of weaknesses, plus the possible absence of stat boosting-moves from CAP9's movepool (after all, it is not meant to be an all-out sweeper) leave CAP9 wide open to a lot of dealing methods (mainly revenge killing, but not only - using Ground moves opens a great range of possible, threatening switch-ins). The point is: if we let CAP9 getting walled by a so-common secondary-effect user like Skarmory (which is unavoidable if we go full physical - and if we go full special say goodbye to usable Pursuit), I think CAP9 fails its concept.
Besides, I already pointed out how Offensive does not mean frail. Unless you head yourself into supereffective or overly strong hits, something along the lines of 80/80/80 defensive stats is enough to grant some switch-in possibilities.
Zarator:
There are still ways to integrate both Physical and Special stats into a moderately offensive stat spread. I don't even see the point of arguing Physical/Special in this thread -- that's what the build bias is for. Hell, even Tyranitar falls under a 2.2 stat rating, which falls under moderately offensive. Even then, SPD boost from sandstorm isn't even factored.
However, I'd still like you to keep your arguments simply offensive/defensive. I wouldn't like much discussion on Physical/Special at the moment, as this is not what this thread is particularly for.
There are still ways to integrate both Physical and Special stats into a moderately offensive stat spread. I don't even see the point of arguing Physical/Special in this thread -- that's what the build bias is for. Hell, even Tyranitar falls under a 2.2 stat rating, which falls under moderately offensive. Even then, SPD boost from sandstorm isn't even factored.
However, I'd still like you to keep your arguments simply offensive/defensive. I wouldn't like much discussion on Physical/Special at the moment, as this is not what this thread is particularly for.
Somewhat offensive sounds the best. Making this defensive accompishes little in the way of Stopping the secondary. Sure it won't die while you're spinning away SR, but your opponent can still set them up again. This pokemon needs to be able to switch in on secondary users and take them out, not just cause them to switch to a wall-breaker.
Just one point regarding CAP9 "dreading coming in on a Surf or Waterfall": when would it need to come in on a pokemon using either of those moves? Grass-type moves it will have more reason to fear coming in on, but apart from Swampert, CAP9 has no reason to come in on any water-type, nor would it have a reason if it were Dark/Poison instead. Also, let's not forget CAP9's immunities to two types. That is already plenty for it to capitalise on.
Why is everyone being so limited in the scope of this concept?! It's Stop the Secondary, not Stop Entry Hazards and Trick, Oh and Absorb T-Wave too, I guess. Why are we focusing on just stopping these Secondary Effects and none of the others on the list that was provided with the concept? Leech Seed, Weather, Taunt, Burn, Freeze, Sleep, the list goes on and on. Again, I feel like we are severely failing at making this concept the best it could be. In fact, I don't see us learning anything we didn't know already from this CAP.
Stop trying to pull this so it stops everything. We don't want "perfect". As far as i'm concerned, we have already done the best with our CAP so far along the lines of "enough".
Boating for Somewhat Offensive or Offensive. Most of my reasons have been stated already, but we need the moves this CAP uses to be effectively frightening to most Secondary users, Trick users in particular.
Boating for Somewhat Offensive or Offensive. Most of my reasons have been stated already, but we need the moves this CAP uses to be effectively frightening to most Secondary users, Trick users in particular.
Indeed. One of the reasons I voted for Ground typing was the fact that it got five weaknesses. If we went with Dark/Poison instead and tried to make our CAP "perfect", we'd have to nerf its movepool just to prevent it from being broken, which if I recall correctly is exactly what we did with the last two CAPs.
Pink, i feel your pain, but the people have spoken. lets just try to make due with what they have given us to work with.
now, to the actual topic at hand....
now, to me, doing everything that might be needed to "stop the secondary" requires a large support movepool more than the ability to threaten, but to use said movepool requires survivability. for this reason, i would prefer somewhat defensive.
now, if that isn't what we get, then i would say that we should do offensive, not somewhat offensive, but straight offensive. with the possible damage potential from the dark/ground STABs, we will have to go all out, otherwise this poke will be gimped. this way it can threaten (just like so many seem to wish...) and possibly get a support move off with a near suicidal approach.
now, to the actual topic at hand....
now, to me, doing everything that might be needed to "stop the secondary" requires a large support movepool more than the ability to threaten, but to use said movepool requires survivability. for this reason, i would prefer somewhat defensive.
now, if that isn't what we get, then i would say that we should do offensive, not somewhat offensive, but straight offensive. with the possible damage potential from the dark/ground STABs, we will have to go all out, otherwise this poke will be gimped. this way it can threaten (just like so many seem to wish...) and possibly get a support move off with a near suicidal approach.
I like somewhat offensive. This keeps with the idea that we should "encourage direct damage" but it also leaves enough room for defensive bulk that it can run a Rapid Spin (I only mention this move because I feel it is in keeping with the Stop the Secondary theme) if needed.
The way I see it, there are going to be viable options for forcing a switch (which is what we're looking for; if CAP9 is offensive, most secondary users will switch and not take our hard hits) out of secondary users whether we're on the offensive or defensive side. Obviously, an offensively-minded CAP9 will force a switch out of intimidation, but a defensive-minded CAP9 has a number of possibilities that don't require brute force, but will still lead to a switch. I opposed what Pink said about learning from a defensive CAP9 originally, but I want to see it just because I think it opens the possibilities for more creative means of forcing the switch. That's why I'm going with Somewhat Defensive. While still retaining some offense to make use of important moves like Pursuit, it won't be something to rely on and definitely not a reason to limit a possibly very creative movepool.
Going for Somewhat Offensive. It can be tankish, hit hard, but have the means to support the team and take hits as well.
*coughTauntradoscough*
And also for all the other reasons people already said.
*coughTauntradoscough*
And also for all the other reasons people already said.
Initially I was thinking offensive but now I favor Somewhat offensive on the basis of the arguments I've heard so far and the underlying fear that if I were to choose offensive that this will become over powered. This fear comes from breaking that 500 roof comments.
But besides all that, I feel like I'm learning a ton from this CAP9 project, like the uncommon roles a Pokemon can play and the tools that are needed in order to perform that role. Sweepers and walls are common roles that have been heavily explored.
Looking forward to seeing this CAP from start to finish! Great stuff!
But besides all that, I feel like I'm learning a ton from this CAP9 project, like the uncommon roles a Pokemon can play and the tools that are needed in order to perform that role. Sweepers and walls are common roles that have been heavily explored.
Looking forward to seeing this CAP from start to finish! Great stuff!
I'm going for Somewhat Defensive or Somewhat Offensive. With this typing, I see no way we could tank/wall much. Water, Grass, Ice, Fighting, Bug. We won't be able to come in on any of these types and do anything. We won't be able to stop Trick Scarf Starmie, and Rotom's Leaf Storm will rape it unless we give it a good Sp.Def. So I'm more in favor of a balanced Somewhat Defensive, somewhere between 5 and -10.
Tyranitar has 61 Speed, you know.
Anyway, I said already why Offensive is the right choice. There really is nothing more to add. Do what you think it's best, but keep in mind that, despite you not wanting to talk about it yet, a decision made here will influence the physical/special bias (and ultimately the spread itself) greatly, and, I fear, not for the best.
I'm not trying to make it perfect. I'm trying to make out CAP fit the concept. Is that unreasonable? All anyone is talking about is pursuiting away tricksters and absorbing T-wave. That is failing the concept miserably. Ok, so we add Rapid Spin to make it do something more. It still only does three things to the entire pool of Secondary Effects. And, on top of that, we are stopping three Secondary Effects that we know how to stop already. What's the point of this? Why aren't we trying to create a Pokemon that can stop weather effects, and stop taunt, and stop burn, and all the other things that haven't even been mentioned since the concept poll and assessment!
Elegy, for one, you are completely wrong with what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm trying to get this CAP to fulfill the concept. Making it defensive is far from making it perfect. It has 5 weaknesses. How is making a Pokemon defensive when it has 5 weaknesses, especially when they are common attacking types in OU, making it perfect at all? I'm trying to have this concept teach us something, which it is currently failing to do.
Also, consider this everyone. You say that CAP9 will stop Celebi from setting up Leech Seed, and using Trick. How? Celebi has Grass Knot STAB. Battlers aren't idiots. CAP9 will come out and Celebi will think, "Ok, I could set up Leech Seed here, or I could predict the switch and OHKO it with Grass Knot. Or, I could play it safe and U-turn out. Both Super Effective!" Or maybe a Gengar will come in to trick you, and instead use HP Ice. There many possibilities of why making the main point of this CAP to use Pursuit is a horrible idea, especially with this typing.
Elegy, for one, you are completely wrong with what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm trying to get this CAP to fulfill the concept. Making it defensive is far from making it perfect. It has 5 weaknesses. How is making a Pokemon defensive when it has 5 weaknesses, especially when they are common attacking types in OU, making it perfect at all? I'm trying to have this concept teach us something, which it is currently failing to do.
Also, consider this everyone. You say that CAP9 will stop Celebi from setting up Leech Seed, and using Trick. How? Celebi has Grass Knot STAB. Battlers aren't idiots. CAP9 will come out and Celebi will think, "Ok, I could set up Leech Seed here, or I could predict the switch and OHKO it with Grass Knot. Or, I could play it safe and U-turn out. Both Super Effective!" Or maybe a Gengar will come in to trick you, and instead use HP Ice. There many possibilities of why making the main point of this CAP to use Pursuit is a horrible idea, especially with this typing.
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