CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 5 - Build Bias Discussion

[zorbees]

How much Sp.Def do you want this thing to have? It can have a pretty healthy Sp.Def stat while still being Physically biased. Gyarados is Physically biased, yet it has 95/100 Special Defense. I can even slightly tweak Gyarados' spread to get him up to 100/110 while retaining a similar PSB and BSR.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

I say we should go full-bore Physical. Hydrolphin had a point about the whole physical bias not really affecting Special Defense that much. I'd also like to add that it doesn't affect Special Attack that much either. I mean, look at Garchomp. It has a heavy bias towards physical, yet a Fire Blast from the bastard deals 83.23% - 98.20% damage to 252HP/0SDF Skamory... and that's without any EVs to SAT or an SAT+ nature... as long as you don't downgrade SAT with Adamant or whatnot.

I think Garchomp's stats are around about what we need to acheive here, maybe toned down slightly. Besides, Garchomp's stats weren't the only things that made it Uber... access to Swords Dance, a lack of weaknesses and a berry that halves damage from the big gaping one played a role too. Hell, even Sand Viel played a role (maybe not a very significant role, but a role nonetheless).

 

[Davros6000]

We wont CAP9 to take hits from both ends, physical and special well. If we give him both physical and special bulk high physical attack and low special attack we still have a physical poke that can take special hits. We want to force the secondary user to attack or flee, stopping them from usin their secondary moves. To make them flee you need anough power so that the opponent doesn't want to take a hit from you and enough bulk so that they don't stay in to KO you before you achive your aim.

I say Physical, around a value of 20ish, and the only stat needing to be low is Special Attack

 

[ninja death strike]

mixed, possibly physical seems like the best option to me. With pursuit and EQ being two of the best moves in the game it just makes sense to go physical. However, I think allowing for some special attacks will allow CAP 9 to take on more secondary abusers.

 

[Onii]

Physical is definitely the way to go. After experimenting with the BSR calculator for a bit, turns out it's very difficult to have both decent Att and SpA without sacrificing bulk AND without falling foul of the "somewhat offensive" ODB.

So unless we CAP 9 is to have a paper-like Def and/or mediocre offensive stats, the best way forward would be to focus on Att, and sacrifice SpA to give bulk on both sides.

 

[Fuzznip]

mixed, possibly physical seems like the best option to me. With pursuit and EQ being two of the best moves in the game it just makes sense to go physical. However, I think allowing for some special attacks will allow CAP 9 to take on more secondary abusers.

We don't need to make this CAP take out every secondary abuser. What we're aiming with this concept is to stop the secondary, not kill the secondary. I understand that killing is a way of stopping, but I don't think we should just focus on that factor. We can use other moves that can stop them, like Taunt or Rapid Spin for example. We don't need to make this thing go mixed just because it has to kill Skarmory in order for it to "stop" it, there are other ways you know.

That being said, I'm still sticking with physical.

 

[Indragon]

Going with Mixed, possibly Physical. We obviously need the physical attack power to back up its STABs and this'll also give us the necessary bulk. I know that we're not looking for a wallbreaker but if we do invest in a moderate Sp.Attack stat, at least the option to use surprise special attacks remains open. And even if we make the Sp.A stat very low and boost its SDef instead, we just trade a little bit of physical power for that extra survivability which is definitely going to help in stopping the secondary and is better than purely physical.

 

[Azule]

Physical is the best option, Garchomp kept Skarmory away with Fire Blast, whilst being a physical monster.

 

[NoahAudubon]

I had done some calcs before I posted anything. I just assumed we weren't going to "MAX OUT TEH STATS!!1". Looking to previous CAPs as a basis, I see that the highest stat is Stratagem's Speed, 130, followed by his Sp. Atk and Pyroak's HP, 120. 130 is also Scizor's Attack stat, while 135 is the highest Attack stat in all of OU (Salamence and Metagross). So, reasonably, our CAPs attack should not exceed 135, and probably should max out at 130. Also, the lowest stat given to any CAP is Kitsunoh's Sp.Atk, a measly 55. So within reason, CAP9's Sp.Atk Shouldn't be any lower than 55. With either pure Physical, or with Physical, possibly mixed, you can have a good Physical sweeping ability and a good Special Tanking ability, while still falling under Somewhat Offensive. Pure physical can let us 'max out' our attack, but Mixed, Somewhat Physical grants us extra bulk while only losing, roughly, 10 points in our attack stat. It really depends on which one we want our CAP to do, deal a little more damage, or stay alive a little bit longer. I, personally, am in favor of staying alive, but either choice is a good one.

Thank you for the break-down. This certainly helped me make my decision. I am voting Physical. Most secondary-use that I have seen is done in the early game so I personally would like to see that "little more damage", since I don't expect CAP9 to be in much longer than the secondary users. And, while this means it won't necessarily kill Skarm or Hipp, it does mean that you might be able to force the switch, which is almost as good, especially if you can mess up their set-up (spikes, TS, or SR, etc.) and pave the way for your sweeper.

 

[Nik S D]

I'm going with Physical.

I was toying around with the BSR calculator-just trying to see some physical spreads that could work-and I found many combinations which, to my suprise, had very good defences as well. They didn't have to rely on Garchomp-worthy stats, and they could still fall back on some special moves if it was absolutely necessary. So, this seems like a pretty good way to go. By the way, I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know how much of this has been said already.

 

[Scoopapa]

I'm torn between Mixed, possibly physical and physical.

Here's are some advantages of Mixed, possibly physical:

This thing could threaten most special walls with base SpAtk of 80 and a life orb (think Flygon, Garchomp). Unfortunately, keeping a full on physical bias with this stat requires either huge attack (which would probably turn this guy into a different type of pokemon than we want it to be) or low special defense (neutering his ability to switch in to most status users) or a mix of both (still significant in both areas). Since it won't take much attack to stop frail psychic and ghost trickers with pursuit/crunch, it makes sense to me to give it enough special attack to 2HKO a physical wall of it's choice.

The reason for this is that rapid spin is very difficult to pull off in CAP, and taunt likely won't prevent rocks unless CAP9 is your lead. What good would it be if physical walls could switch in and beat CAP9 1v1 with attacks? You would risk taking attack after attack in order to come in and use taunt or rapid spin. It would only be a matter of time before CAP9 succumbed, leaving the wall to easily come in later and set up rocks. The threat of spinning might force out the wall, but beating down CAP9 would be enticing too (especially if their ghost isn't Dark neutral). If CAP9 could directly threaten the wall, it would be less likely to die, and more likely to force predictable switches.

However physical has some advantages too. Focusing on one offensive stat obviously allows it a higher attack stat, and trying to use Fire Blast + Good physical STAB + support options might create a bad case of four moveslot syndrome. A higher attack stat will allow CAP9 to do more damage to ghost switch ins (Rev + Spiritomb are the only ones who matter in this case) so it would give him a better chance of stopping their spin blocker, which would help since he wouldn't be able to beat the physical walls that lay most entry hazards. Higher attack would also make him better able to punish Blissey.

Is it worth sacrificing some attack points and a moveslot to beat Skarm + Forretress or Gliscor + Hippo? That seems to be the crux of the debate.

 

[AlphaBravo]

Mixed Physical

As noted, most secondary users are Special-based. You want a good Special Defense in addition to your Attack.

 

[Plus]

Half an hour left. I like the discussion on both sides, and it's going well. Both sides have some good points, so I'll make my decision then.

 

[Robo-Ky]

Physical is the best option here. Would sacrificing stats in a more useful area in order to take out a small number of physical walls really be that useful? Probably not. Also, some people seem to be forgetting that the concept is not necessarily to stop the users of secondaries, but to stop the effects themselves. Killing the users is one way of stopping the effects, but there are far more methods than this - I'm sure that this guy will, in the end, be able to stop the effects through a combination of typing, moves, and abilities. We don't need to take out every threat in the metagame, we just need to stop the effects themselves. Because of these things, I am pushing for physical.

 

[Plus]

Closing the thread. After looking through the posts and finding the decent points on both, I have decided to use Physical. A Stat Rating Discussion will be up soon.