CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 9a - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Plus]

Discuss the Secondary Ability for this CAP.

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?​

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Typing: Dark/Ground
Style Bias: Somewhat offensive (0-20)
Build Bias: Physical (20 to infinity)
Stat Rating: Excellent (420-579)
Primary Ability: Auto Magic Coat



The Rules:

• Do not polljump. I'm almost done saying this, guys. All we need done now is movepool, and then our cap is complete competitively. You've done a good job so far, so remember to keep the discussion to strictly ability. Suggesting that there are possibilities that CAP 9 got x move is fine, but suggesting that it should get x move is not.
• Threadhogging -- don't do it. What I said in the Secondary Typing Poll applies here even more. Get your point across, defend it, and move on. I shouldn't see the same people posting the same shit over and over again.
• Keep the convo fresh. Don't discuss the same thing over and over again. If you have something new to post, post it. If not, think a little bit harder on your post, and make sure you are not threadhogging. In other words, bandwagoning.
• If you're going to submit a custom ability, back it up with justification. Don't just suggest one. Explain why we should make a new ability, what it has to offer for the concept/metagame, and why an already existing ability can't perform adequately.

Same applies from the first ability thread. It'll be a bit shorter since I know for a fact you guys will bring up the same abilities. Go wild.

 

[Spaceneil8]

Is Auto Magic Coat going to be renamed?

I vote Guts, or Sandstream for secondary.

 

[Plus]

Is Auto Magic Coat going to be renamed?

I vote Guts, or Sandstream for secondary.

Yes, I will rename it at the end.

This is not a voting thread, this is a discussion thread. Please put some substance into your post and read the OP again.

 

[Rook]

Poison Heal would be a fantastic secondary ability. It really helps if cap9 wants to go more defensive. Obviously, it blocks status (provided being poisoned), without knocking itself down with guts. Burns and poison damage really starts to add up, and I think our cap should be able to switch in easily to secondary users without dying.

 

[polelover44]

Air Lock/Cloud Nine
Weather effects can be a big factor when used in battle, whether it's Rain/Sun with Clorophyll/Swift Swim, or Sandstorm/Hail damaging CAP9. Air Lock (or Cloud Nine) will nullify all advantages gained from having SS/Hail/Rain/Sun on the field.

Poison Heal would be a fantastic secondary ability. It really helps if cap9 wants to go more defensive. Obviously, it blocks status (provided being poisoned), without knocking itself down with guts. Burns and poison damage really starts to add up, and I think our cap should be able to switch in easily to secondary users without dying.

Poison Heal is pointless w/Auto Magic Coat.

 

[darkchicken]

Air Lock/Cloud Nine only applies to the Pokemon currently on the field.

I don't have a specific ability in mind, but I think we should avoid Guts for reasons previously stated (flame orb sweep)

 

[Rook]

Poison Heal is pointless w/Auto Magic Coat.

Um... are you serious? AMC doesn't help you defensively at all. I definitely thinks it help block status better (I voted for it), but Poison Heal, imo, is a fantastic secondary ability. It blocks status permanently, and heals you to, which is very good for a bulky sweeper, which cap9 clearly is going to be. The only way Poison Heal is similar to AMC is that it blocks status. Even with that similar characteristic, they still do it differently. While AMC makes the person think, "Should I really use status, if it can bounce back at me?", while Poison Heal can switch in to status, and take it again and again, regardless if it switched in to it or not.

 

[polelover44]

Air Lock/Cloud Nine only applies to the Pokemon currently on the field.

So do Poison Heal, Auto Magic Coat, etc.

Another idea: Magic Guard
Like Magic Coat, but reduces SR use, etc.
Maybe a bit redundant, but it could work.

EDIT: @ Loedoc: So can Auto Magic Coat...

 

[Tortferngatr]

WE probably want something that acts as a check for lesser statuses now. Inner Focus sounds like a good idea, if only because of Fake Out, Togekiss, and Jirachi. (Shaymin-S was voted Uber, though he's still awesome too. Waterfall flinch should also be considered.) On the other hand, a broader custom ability might also work, if not for the fact it may be less preferable given we've already created a new ability.

 

[KnightoftheWind]

I propose that we have No Ability. Auto-Magic Coat is the only ability we really need to stop the secondary, there isn't anything else that can help CAP9 any further. The only other ability I can really think of that can do something that Auto-Magic Coat doesn't is Sand Veil, to take advantage of the Sandstorm immunity.

 

[Afroninja22]

Due to the large number of weaknesses it has, this pokemon could benefit from an ability such as filter. It could give it the added bulk it needs to get its job done. It could be broken though depending on the stats CAP 9 receives.

 

[Rook]

AMC only works on the switch-in. Really, I feel Poison Heal really benefits from the stat-spreads, without being broken. It really sticks to the theme of bulky sweeper, giving it more staying power than leftovers, AND blocking status.

Really, what benefits does Magic Guard have over Poison Heal? Most of them are kind of broken. Plus, if you want to take advantage of Magic Guard, you need to use Toxic Orb (to block status), which takes away leftover recovery. I really don't think this thing is going to get an auto-recovery move, so without lefties, it's going to get worn down fast by secondary users.

 

[polelover44]

AMC only works on the switch-in. Really, I feel Poison Heal really benefits from the stat-spreads, without being broken. It really sticks to the theme of bulky sweeper, giving it more staying power than leftovers, AND blocking status.

Really, what benefits does Magic Guard have over Poison Heal? Most of them are kind of broken. Plus, if you want to take advantage of Magic Guard, you need to use Toxic Orb (to block status), which takes away leftover recovery. I really don't think this thing is going to get an auto-recovery move, so without lefties, it's going to get worn down fast by secondary users.

But Magic Guard Blocks secondary moves.

 

[hydrolphin]

I'm going to suggest Suction Cups as a posible ability. It stops Roar and Whirlwind, which are annoying for any team. They would be good if CAP9 isn't carrying Rapid Spin (assuming it gets it) or if it decides to use a resttalk set or if we give it something like meditate/howl/sharpen or cosmic power, to make a stat boosting set. Soundproof would produce a similar effect; it wouldn't stop WW, but it beats stuff that is harder to stop like Perish Song or Heal Bell.

Poison Heal would be a long term alternative to AMC. AMC will only help on the switch in (so stop arguing it blocks status forever!!!) and poison heal would give it a more defensive option.

But Magic Guard Blocks secondary moves.

So does Poison Heal. The Magic Guard user would have to give either constant healing every turn or an immunity to burn's attack drop. Poison Heal gives you better healing than Leftovers AND an immunity to burn. The only things that Magic Guard realy has an advantage in are an immunity to spikes, leech seed, and life orb, and with LO, you wouldn't have Lefties OR burn immunity. Poison Heal has much greater advantages to magic guard than anything Magic Guard can offer.

 

[Rook]

Care to talk about which ones? There's not that much important ones besides status. Leech Seed and hail (two things that are almost never seen).

Edit: I checked, and you'll probably see Leech Seed in about 1 in every 50 battles. Are we really going to give this cap a broken ability so it can be more useful 2% of the time?

 

[824545201]

No Ability
In all honesty I don't think CAP9 should have a second ability. With Guts it basically becomes a "different" Heracross, especially if were to get pursuit. Since the CAP process is to learn how a new variable would affect the OU metagame, I don't need to mention any other CAPs. This things typing allows it to be a Rotom-a counter mostly with its resist/immunity to Rotom's two STAB attacks. The reason I mention Rotom is becuase it tends to spam wisp aka the "secondary" the most of any OU as far as I know. I've recently test out CBHeracross with great success. Out of the 10 or so matches with Rotom-a in it I was able to come in on a wisp and get a guts boost. Sadly even with guts Rotom could still play around pursuit with its sturdy defensive stats and ohko me back with overheat. Anyway, the point that I'm incoherently trying to make is is this stop the secondary or status immune sweeper? Guts is obviously the more useful choice between it and AMC but we already have guts users who do their respective jobs quite well.
Poison health almost fits the same criteria of "we already know what it does" but my reasoning for an anti vote is basically why the hell would a ground/dark type have a poison-esc ability.

 

[zorbees]

Battle Armor/Shell Armor

These are always nifty abilities to have, while they would not overshadow the main ability. Crits suck if you are using this Pokemon as a defensive/utility Pokemon, which, seeing the stat spreads, could be a possibility, so these abilities can help if you aren't afraid of status. This could lead to a restalk/crunch/(bulk up or curse) set which could be a nice change of pace, but I doubt it would be the main option.

 

[Anachronism]

Auto-Magic Guard will not stop people from using status. Who cares about a paralyzed Celebi/Cresselia, or a burned restalk rotom, or a slept Roserade? I would like to give Guts another shot as the secondary ability. I am pretty sure that Auto-Magic Guard will either be broken or underwhelming, probably the latter. In no way is Guts broken!! CAP is too afraid of making a decent sweeper, so we end up with broken stallers and shit for sweepers! Lets make a decent offensive team-mate for a change! Vote Guts!

 

[ungulateman]

Scrappy could be an interesting choice, if CAP 9 is going to get Rapid Spin as a lot of people are predicting - the entries in the art thread and the rumblings on #cap seem to point that way. Stopping a Ghost-type from interfering with Rapid Spin is stopping the secondary in one way, no?

 

[petrie911]

I still like Guts, for all the same reasons as before. I still think it goes well with AMC, and it still is a good way to deter status, the most common secondary effect. Since Deck Knight's spread is looking to win, I don't think Guts would be broken on it in any way.

Sticky Hold still blocks Trick, if we still care about that. AMC blocks it, too, but if it's a Scarf, they'll get another try. Sticky Hold just makes them pursuit bait.

 

[Sir-half]

I dont quite recall why Shield Dust was stopped being discussed.
Also I would like to remind people of synchronize.

Shield Dust will make their move wasted, while lasting for the entire time, not just one move like auto magic coat, although they will not bounce back.

Synchronize only works for status but oh well

 

[MetalGearSamus]

Poison Heal, that would give CAP9 the option of being immune to both Paralysis and Poison in addition to Sandstorm immunity and Taunt/Trick discrimination.

My second choice would be Synchronize because it punishes status inducers.

 

[Fuzznip]

I would love for this CAP to have a more offensive-oriented ability, rather than a defensive one, which is kind of like Auto Magic Coat. With that being said, I support the ability Guts.

Guts could easily make this CAP become a very threatening sweeping force, not to mention the fact that it essentially stops the secondary at the same time. Also, Guts can definitely be used on a defensive spread if you really want it to. Common walls are usually crippled by Toxic and Will-O-Wisp, but that just means CAP9 will be threatening both offensively and defensively, which is pretty cool in my opinion.

Regarding Scrappy, that does not help CAP9 at all. Firstly, why would it use Normal-type moves when it has STAB Dark-type moves to hit Ghosts, isn't that kind of a waste? Also, if CAP9 is going to get Rapid Spin and will have the Scrappy ability, that's extremely broken by a mile. Removing entry hazards 100% of the time is ridiculous, imagine how much the metagame will change. Imagine how threatening Salamence and Gyarados will be when they no longer have to worry about being chipped off 25% health. Stealth Rock is basically what keeps these kind of threats workable, especially Salamence. Not to mention that stall teams will basically be nonexistent. No way will Scrappy work, the metagame isn't ready for such thing.

 

[familyguyman]

Why not Steadfast? Stops flinching and can help set up a sweep while aiding CAP9 be a respectable lead.

Also, how about Snow Cloak/Sand Veil? Both can help support weather and deter secondary moves with crap accuracy. It also would give an interesting niche on weather teams.

Unburden could also be cool, allowing for Knock Off absorption or with Knock Off + Trick of it's own (I think that works) or Pinch Berry abuse.

I could see Filter/Solid Rock working since CAP9 has no 4x weaknesses, it could be quite durable.

Of course Natural Cure, Poison Heal, Guts and Quick Feet have merit as well.

 

[Sceats]

So far, looking at peoples arguments i cant see anything standing out. Poison heal and filter look ok, but guts will ruin the concept in a similar way to limber kitsunoh not being the 'ultimate scout'. Really i reckon that no secondary ability is the way to go.