CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 9b - Secondary Ability Poll

[Plus]

Vote on either Guts or No Secondary Ability. Yeah, that's right. Guts or bust, people.

• We will not allow posts in this topic such as "ability." Put some substance into your post.

Guts: Raises Attack by 1.5x when Statused. Confusion, Attract etc. do not affect this.

No Secondary Ability: No secondary ability.

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?​

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Typing: Dark/Ground
Ability: Auto-Magic Coat
Stat Spread: 133/122/72/71/71/95

 

[Raj]

Voted for Guts because one of the things that this CAP really has going for it is its ability to come in and trap Rotom. Making it actually benefit from coming in on a WoW really makes it even more useful. Not giving it a secondary ability would only limit its capailities and thus it's ability to "stop the secondary". With two such abilities, no one will be knowingly burning this Mon until its ability is known.

 

[Marvel Scale]

I'm voting on no secondary ability mainly fearing a probability of turning CAP9 into a toxic orb abuser. But I still like the idea of Guts, though.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Voting No Secondary Ability, for the same reasons I posted in the other thread. If anyone missed it:

If these abilities are deemed too strong/weak, I would prefer that this CAP has No Secondary Ability over something like Guts or Poison Heal, as both of those abilities are only tangentially related to the concept at best and allow this CAP to fill roles it wasn't meant to (sweeper and staller, respectively).

To those saying Guts is not too powerful, look at it this way: it's like a choice band that has life orb recoil instead of a sweeping-ending block on coverage. The only thing stopping Pokemon that currently have Guts from rampaging through the metagame is poor speed (Ursaring, Heracross, Machamp) or poor attack/movepool/defenses (Swellow). And even Swellow, who is by all accounts a shitty Pokemon except for its speed, receives enough of a power boost from Guts to allow it to rampage through UU. The only thing capable of stopping it is a steel or rock type, which prevents it from being broken in that tier. However, there is no such full-stop for Dark/Ground in OU (one of the reasons I argued for it back in the typing poll; it's a good offensive type) as the STABs are only walled by Skarmory (and we can easily pack a coverage move for it; Fire Punch or, if Deck Knight's build is chosen, Fire Blast) and only the rare Hippodown has enough raw defenses to take hits (and it is 2hko'd after some residual damage anyway).

 

[GM-Damion]

Guts is actually a very useful ability. It increase the power of moves if the pokemon with it is inflicted with a burn, paralasis or poison. I think this pokemon that will have this ability will have a big advantage on its side.

 

[darkchicken]

Guts is actually a very useful ability. It increase the power of moves if the pokemon with it is inflicted with a burn, paralasis or poison. I think this pokemon that will have this ability will have a big advantage on its side.

Yes, it will have a big advantage, but we're not trying to make a super-pokemon here. We're trying to make it stop the secondary. While Guts is semi-useful in this respect, the speed+attack of this pokemon will most likely incline it to become a status sweeper as opposed to a status stopper. For this reason and others, I chose no secondary ability.

 

[ferron]

voting NSA for 1 simple reason;i cannot see guts helping the concept at all. it increases attack power, but you don't have to rely on an opponents secondary move for that.
the most it can do, is let you absorb some status and sweep. the problem with this is, that we are supposed to stop as many secondary effects as possible, but it seems that from the beginning we have been focusing on status.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Because neither Steadfast nor inner Focus made it, I have to vote "No secondary ability." Guts sweep is inevitable. And even though many Pokemon outspeed D-Knight's spread, Guts is a bad secondary ability due to the fact it defeats its purpose. Machamp runs No Guard because it then gets perfect accuracy DynamicPunches, better for it than Guts. It's either impractical or it's outclassed on a lot of Pokemon. Swellow is only Guts sweeper we know with decency, and he's in UU for other reasons like poor STAB for OU. Dark/Ground is great OU coverage. Honestly, I don't want this guy to be nerfed because he was too awesome.

I think many peoples' arguments have convinced me Guts is a bad idea.

 

[ReysonTheNoble]

Grudgingly voted Guts, as I would rather have a little more diversity than nothing at all. Sad that no other abilities are being considered though. As for a "Guts Sweep", base 95 speed doesn't really sweep. At all.

 

[Azule]

Kinda annoyed that Guts was the only ability that came through, so I voted No Secondary Ability. Guts is just too much, imo. It changes what should be a defensive based Pokemon into a much more aggressive Pokemon, and with DK's spread winning, the Pokemon will have good defense, decant speed, and high attack, slap an Orb on and you've got a sweeper with a decant speed.

 

[Infiltrator]

Voted Guts. I really like how CAP9 with Guts can come in on Rotom-A WoW and other status induces, causing it to backfire with a powerful STAB Pursuit, or a strong boosted move.

 

[Objection]

Whether Guts is broken or not, I don't see how putting a Flame Orb on a Guts CAP9 is in any way, shape or form related to the concept, so please can someone explain it to me? All it gets is immunity to status and we already have an ability dealing with status. The extra power gained from Guts has no relevance whatsoever to the concept. You can argue that CAP9 can benefit from being hit by Will-o-Wisp or Toxic or even a sleep-inducing move, but who needs the opponent to use Toxic, Will-o-Wisp or Spore when you've got Toxic Orb, Flame Orb and Rest + Sleep Talk that you can put on the pokemon in the team builder? The only alternative is to ban Toxic Orb and Flame Orb on CAP9 so that it has to rely on being hit by Toxic or Will-o-Wisp. Now that is ridiculous.

On the other hand, I did say in the discussion thread that, since we geared the typing and primary ability towards the concept to the extent of creating a new ability, maybe our secondary ability shouldn't be relevant to the concept. After all, if we put all our eggs in one basket, we'll end up with a pokemon that has a very small purpose and no use whatsoever outside of said purpose. If we give CAP9 a shot at being something else besides a pure secondary stopper, then it will fit more easily onto a team. We have now given CAP9 sufficient stats to have an alternative role of some kind and giving it Guts will help define an alternative role.

Which way you vote therefore depends on whether you want CAP9 to be anything other than a counter to secondary effect moves.

 

[Walvren]

I voted Guts.

Guts is used for some sexy punishing power, of course, but everyone's worried about CAP9 becoming a Guts-sweeper. I doubt that would be a real problem. Bad defensive typing and average-ish speed won't let it sweep very effectively.

The only real problem is trying to stop it with sleep. If CAP9 switches in after a pokemon has been KOed and the opponent doesn't know which ability it has, it's going to have to play a guessing game: whether to attack or hypnosis/spore. In this way, Guts can help stop the secondary after all.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Voted Guts. Agreeing with Reyson here, I have to say that a Dark-Ground typing is great offensively, and is also great (for your opponent) defensively, being weak to Fighting, Bug, Water, Grass, and Ice. 95 base speed is definitely not enough to have a sweep with Guts. Also, with Guts, your opponent will be afraid to put you to sleep if they don't know your ability. (Thank you Walvren. My thought exactly.)

 

[Maci12]

I voted Guts. It makes CAP 9 able to counter the bulky Ghosts it switches into, allows it to 2HKO Cresselia with Crunch. It gives us a totally different way to stop the secondary then AMC provides, and provides CAP 9 with many more ways to effectively enter battle to Stop the Secondary: by abusing status.

EDIT: Though I am Pro-Guts, I would just like to say to those who say 95 isn't enough to start a sweep with guts, Heracross is the most effective Guts Abuser, and by slapping a Choice Scarf on him and coming in on Status, he utterly destroys teams. Also, Heracross can use a Swords Dance Guts set very effectively, and usually forces a switch, and Heracross has 85 speed.

Also, some people had said "I would vote Admiral's spread, but I feel that 108 Speed is too high. I would have voted for it if it was 111 speed." To those who said this, please explain...

 

[darkchicken]

I voted Guts.

Guts is used for some sexy punishing power, of course, but everyone's worried about CAP9 becoming a Guts-sweeper. I doubt that would be a real problem. Bad defensive typing and average-ish speed won't let it sweep very effectively.

The only real problem is trying to stop it with sleep. If CAP9 switches in after a pokemon has been KOed and the opponent doesn't know which ability it has, it's going to have to play a guessing game: whether to attack or hypnosis/spore. In this way, Guts can help stop the secondary after all.

AMC only activates on the switch. Your opponent won't play a guessing game there, it will simply destroy CAP9/set up/switch. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but sleep doesn't activate Guts, and even if it did, you'd be catatonic anyway, so what does it matter?

 

[Magmortified]

I don't see how putting a Flame Orb on a Guts CAP9 is in any way, shape or form related to the concept, so please can someone explain it to me?

Gladly.

There are two ways in which Guts can benefit the process of reducing the secondary's influence:

1. It provides benefits for being hit with status (which is a very large part of the secondary... or at least a well-used part). Whether it's self-inflicted or done by your opponent, it means that - being burned, particularly - benefits, instead of cripples you. It's an ongoing protection of sorts, and can be used to other benefits, such as:

2. Giving an Attack bonus that helps towards breaking users of the secondary in half. There are more ways to stop the secondary than the scare factor of a new ability made to combat it. A Pokemon that knocks up secondary users in combination with that can be intimidating towards using the secondary indeed.

All it gets is immunity to status and we already have an ability dealing with status.

Guts has the particular benefit of applying at any given time when statused - as well as actually benefitting CAP 9. AMC has scare factor for dealing with the secondary, but if it's not working out for you in practice, Guts is a formidable backup.

but who needs the opponent to use Toxic, Will-o-Wisp or Spore when you've got Toxic Orb, Flame Orb and Rest + Sleep Talk that you can put on the pokemon in the team builder?

Note that in this way, the opposing Pokemon's not even going to bother trying to use status on you. You can use this to absorb status. Using the extra power from Guts to punish their failed status move makes it even cooler.

On the other hand, I did say in the discussion thread that, since we geared the typing and primary ability towards the concept to the extent of creating a new ability, maybe our secondary ability shouldn't be relevant to the concept.

Well then Guts still wins! :D

If we give CAP9 a shot at being something else besides a pure secondary stopper, then it will fit more easily onto a team.

I'd argue that even if it's packing Guts, the fact that this thing could be running AMC does have a scare factor that could impact how your opponent could make team-building and earlygame decisions. AMC has given CAP 9 a way to discourage the secondary just by having AMC as an option. In addition to the contributions Guts can make towards stopping the secondary, I think that even if it doesn't aim to, CAP 9 can do pretty well at making people think twice before using the secondary anyhow.

I hope this clarifies Guts' relevance!

 

[Staraptor Call]

Guts would help us explore the metagame by testing which type of secondary-move-preventing is the most viable. Going with no secondary ability wouldn't tell us nearly as much about the metagame because it wouldn't test Auto Magic Coat's viablity compared to other abilities. And fears of CAP9 becoming an all-powerful Orb sweeper are unfounded because every team but the heaviest of stall teams has a Pokemon that could revenge-kill a Jolly Base 95 Speed Pokemon. If anything, Guts CAP9 would tend more toward Rest-talking due to its good HP and the Guts boost from Sleep.

 

[Sir-half]

I voted Guts, because for the most part it will be the inferior option anyways.

Now that Deck Knight has won, I vigourosly support Guts.

It gives more options.

Which hurts rotom more, WoW, or 1.5x STAB pursuit/crunch/suckerpunch/etc...

I dont see it as a valid Guts sweeper, it has bad typing. It can easily be revenge killed/ set up on by latias, starmie, syclant, and the likes.

Also, on average, why would you rather have this than heracross, as guts sweeper? 10 base speed. CAP 9 will not even have surprise value, as it will (Most likely), say something was reflected, when CAP 9 switches in, even if it switches into an attack. If it doesnt, then a flame orb sweeper can only stay hidden for one turn, before the flame kicks in.

 

[Anachronism]

For those of you denying Guts' relation to the CAP goal, the whole point of the concept is to STOP the secondary. This can be interpretted in 2 ways:

1. Literally stop secondary moves from happening

2. Shift the metagame away from secondary moves

Guts accomplishes the second one, while Auto-Magic Coat accomplishes neither. It will at best burn a Rotom, poison a Blissey, or sleep a Roserade. Yay! now they can rest/natural cure it off (well, I supposed they WILL get pursuited so that is cool), but Guts will actually cause CAP 9 to be a legitemate threat after the opponent desides to spam their status all over, which will maybe make your opponent consider not using the secondary move, thus pre-emptively STOPPING THE SECONDARY!!

Also, for people who are complaining that we are focusing too much on status, that is because non-custom abilities focus on status, and we already focused the typing on eliminating trick. The rest of the secondary moves are stopped best by rapid spin and other moves, so those will have to wait.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

As has been stated many times before, I (and a great deal of other people) would like to see this CAP heading in an offensive direction Ability-wise.

Auto Magic-Coat (let's call it Iron Curtain, shall we?) is all well and good, but it's a defensive Ability. Guts is most certainly offensive, therefore it'd be a perfect fit.

 

[familyguyman]

Going with Guts. I've wanted some mind games this whole time and, while AMC and Guts both absorb status, Guts is a very different approach. Both fill a similar role, Guts adds a rich dimension to CAP9.

Guts is no less "broken" than AMC, but it's a very strong alternative so I doubt either AMC or Guts will be used on like 99% of the Pokemon.

No ability is boring, Guts is fun and equally viable.

 

[Korski]

Originally Posted by Fat Sgt Woodsy
Auto Magic-Coat (let's call it Iron Curtain, shall we?) is all well and good, but it's a defensive Ability.

If we call AMC "Iron Curtain," I propose a new move that any pokemon can learn called "Berlin Air Lift," where Ronald Reagan comes back from the dead and defeats the opponent's team, so long as CaP is out on the field.

Also, the idea that AMC is a defensive ability is an illusion. What it's designed to do is allow you to be able to switch into any Blissey, Rotom-h, or other common status-using, non-offensive threat with impunity and, in most cases, wail away on a pokemon taking poison or burn damage, slowed the hell down by paralysis, or asleep. Guts, too, is offensive, but more so, and operates with a much different strategy. It's also not broken, since CaP's bulk comes from its HP, and being worn down by burn/toxic damage, along with its already lengthy list of type weaknesses means it won't be sweeping entire teams anytime soon.

 

[Raj]

voting NSA for 1 simple reason;i cannot see guts helping the concept at all. it increases attack power, but you don't have to rely on an opponents secondary move for that.
the most it can do, is let you absorb some status and sweep. the problem with this is, that we are supposed to stop as many secondary effects as possible, but it seems that from the beginning we have been focusing on status.

You're not looking pat Flame Orb here. Opponent inflicted burn, which is used all the time, is secondary.

 

[ferron]

You're not looking pat Flame Orb here. Opponent inflicted burn, which is used all the time, is secondary.

any why would you rely on the opponent when its easier to do it yourself?