Tournament CAPPL IX - Policy Discussion

[Tadasuke]

CAPPL IX - Policy Discussion

[art by Wulfanator]​

Alright bros, foes, and hoes, it's the moment you've all been waiting for. We're sitting on the cusp of the greatest tournament ever to grace this forum other than anything that might've actually been better. That's right baby, CAPPL IX time. Before we can truly delve into the depths of glory that embody this hallowed tradition, we must first spend a week fighting to the death over logistics.

The biggest question that needs to be answered every time we come around to this is of course what tiers are going to be featured in this iteration of CAPPL. Because CAPCL II happened so early in the beginning of this generation, we weren't able to feature CAP OMs in the same capacity as the first time around. However, it's my understanding that the community here would still like to keep CAPPL's structure limited to current gen CAP as well as past gen standard CAP OU formats. As such I'd like to see discussion on which of the following formats should be represented in CAPPL IX and how many slots should be dedicated to those tiers.

• SV CAP
• SS CAP
• SM CAP
• ORAS CAP
• BW CAP
• DPP CAP

An additional item that should be addressed with regards to weekly rosters is whether or not we wish to have a Best of 3 match as a spotlight feature. In the past I've heard mixed reviews both supporting and denouncing this as an option. Since it's been so contentious previously, I'm going to initially leave it out, but if enough support is garnered for its inclusion I would see no reason not to go with the community's consensus.

In the previous CAPPL, we opted to have a point pool of 120,000 allocated to each team, with managers and assistant managers being able to buy themselves prior to the draft for a flat rate of 12,500 points. This seemed to work effectively and I'm inclined to repeat this process, but if any concerns are raised I'd be happy to change this in accordance with any consensus we come to in this thread.

As always feel free to bring up any additional concerns that you feel merit discussion, and expect this thread to close in a week.

No we're not doing retains.

 

[dex]

I'd like to see CAPPL be notably different than CAPCL while still having a focus on old gens. However, as CAPCL had all old gens in it, I think it'd be good to have the tour focus on the more developed and stable gens given CAPPL is a somewhat more important tour than CAPCL. I propose the following slots:

SV1
SV2
SV3
SS1
SS2
SM1
SM2
ORAS

You could make a case for a bo3 old gens, but bo3s in team tours suck. I think this format suggestion is helped a lot by SS and SM generally being the most well-balanced of CAP gens. As for price stuff, I'm fine with how it was last time.

 

[Wulfanator]

Bo3s in team tours suck.

Tour better have good SM representation.

I like dex's suggestion for the most part. Not keen on the solo ORAS slot or solo slots in general. As great as ORAS is, it might be worth just making it a SV4 slot.

 

[shnowshner]

Think dex's suggestion is good since Garrett got banned meaning ORAS lost 1/10 of its active playerbase. CAPPL should be our hallmark tournament and putting focus on the most established and active metagames should be obvious, so SS + SM making up half the slots is a good way to enforce that.

 

[spoo]

SV, SS, SM, and ORAS are obvious locks. CAPPL is our premier oldgen tournament. Why on earth would we cut any of these well-developed and popular formats that have shaped this tour’s identity in years prior? However, I think we are also ready to include BW. The plan has always been to include it in CAPPL some day, and now is a great time.

BW has had two runs in CAPCL with strong development in each iteration. While not a perfectly balanced tier, it seems to be generally well liked by its playerbase and not overly demanding for non-mainers to learn. Resources are at a decent point, the tier was enjoyable for me in CAPCL as a spectator, and it represents a good opportunity for growth by attracting new players. If not now, when?

Seven slots of SV/SV/SV/SS/SM/ORAS/BW make a lot of sense. This leaves one last slot to fill. I think the only “reasonable” options are DPP, Bo3, and a fourth SV slot. You could maybe argue for a second SS but I don’t buy it.

I do not like DPP for this tour. It should be in CAPPL eventually, perhaps even next edition if things go well, but not right now. There are many good things to say about the tier. I honestly believe it has a lot of promise. But as far as I can tell, some sort of tiering action is desperately needed, and many games in CAPCL were very poor quality. The tier has a lot of inherent variance and some wrinkles definitely need to be ironed out before inclusion in our premier tournament. I could go on, but I think most people are on the same page about this option.

Bo3 is fine. It’s an option that I have supported in past iterations. It’s very competitive and great for spectators. It’s been the “filler slot” of choice, historically, and mostly for good reason. Maybe we don’t fix what isn’t broken. But, as a manager last CAPPL, it was quite demanding to support at times, and I think many of the players themselves in the Bo3 slot felt the same way. I worry that this either leads to burnout or is a reuse-fest, neither of which are ideal.

SV4 is my preference. This tour will probably be running with Home support having just dropped, so any extra development on the SV front will be greatly appreciated. Yes, Bo3 includes a SV slot as well, but I worry about its comparative quality (reuse-fest and all that). Current gen is typically the easiest tier to support, so it’s the friendliest option from that perspective, and I enjoy the opportunities it gives to new talent.

SV/SV/SV/SV/SS/SM/ORAS/BW

 

[spoo]

No we're not doing retains.

Retains will be implemented in CAPPL IX, so it's suggested that all managers draft with this in mind if they expect to manage again in the future.

Double posting since I didn’t catch this at first — but I thought retains were the plan? I have personally been looking forward to retains being implemented in this edition and I know others have as well.

Pricing doesn’t need to be too complicated.
Max retains = 2
Retain price = player’s price last CAPPL + 3k
If player’s last price + 3k is less than 10k, then retain price = 10k

Unrelated, but managers should be flat 15k. Assuming two subs of 3k each, every starting player is worth 14.25k on average. I think that managers are typically better players than average, so rounding up to 15k makes sense to me. We have historically preferred lower prices for managers to encourage them to play more, but as CAP grows as a playerbase and stronger players decide to manage, this will result in increasingly lopsided outcomes. Also, we are not as desperate for players as we one were. Two CAPPLs ago, we probably couldn’t have had a competitive tour without managers slotting themselves, but this is no longer true.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

just wanted to drop by and say, as a (hopefully) returning manager, retains were something I was looking forward to as well. Supporting spoo's system ^

Largely indifferent regarding tiers, but slight preference for SV/SV/SV/SV/SS/SM/ORAS/BW given building/prepping two oldgen slots ended up feeling like a drag last time

 

[Wulfanator]

Um, question. If the same managing duo does not team up again, how do retains work?

 

[spoo]

I think managers should just be able to specify which team from last year they want the retention rights to, with returning managers having priority. There aren't really any "legacy" teams yet, either, so I'm fine with new team names. For example, a new manager duo could specify in their signup that they want the retention rights to the Thatcher Begone Bagons and could then change the name to whatever they want. But, if D2 and myself signed up as well, we would be given the rights to the team over them.

 

[Lasen]

Doing retains in such a small community will spiral rather quickly; the amount of competent builders in each tier is dwindling each year and being able to have a managerial pair that knows they won't play so they can focus on just building and THEN retaining the potential 2-3 good SM builders (hint: there's not 3 good SM CAP builders left) will lead to some insanely top-heavy teams.
I also want to advise against a bo3 slot because trust me, I've been there playing it: when you gotta play a bo3 of OU-but-worse and prep for the heinous war-crimes that CAP permits, you get insane burn-out + you end up completely isolated from the rest of the team, even though it technically includes 3 generations so thrice the gaming opportunities. But that's only on paper, as in practice you end up testing each team MAYBE 2 times, and that's not even considering the possibility of multiple teams being loaded.

I'm proposing:
SV x3
SS x2
SM x2
ORAS

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Proposing SV/SV/SV/SS/SS/SM/ORAS/BW

I agree with spoo on the idea that BW should be featured in this tour. While it's not perfect, it's had quite a bit of development in the past few years and the games in both edition of CAPCL have been fairly good for the most part. I'm also not a huge fan of having four SV slots. I agree that metagame development is important for current gen, which is why we have several slots for it to begin with, but I'm not a fan of allowing teams to hypothetically tie weeks just off of current gen support alone (Yes I know we did that when we only had six slots, but I mean there it was sort of unavoidable). If we had more slots, I would be fine with having four SV slots, but with only eight slots it feels like it's just too much. I would suggest having a Bo3 slot, but the community as a whole really doesn't like Bo3, and DPP is nowhere near in a state where we can comfortably put it in our most prestegious tournament, so I think just doing a second SS slot is the most logical answer.

Also agree on implementing retains. While I understand where Lasen is coming from, I think that CAP has grown enough, especially over the last two years, that this shouldn't be a huge issue.

As for manager prices, idgaf what we do.

 

[pannu]

I think a bo3 slot should be in the tour bcuz i wanna play bo3

 

[spoo]

Was probably too dismissive of 2 SS slots in my first post. It seems arbitrary to include two slots for only one oldgen and not others, but it’s our most developed format and will probably draw many more signups than other oldgens due to its recency. I still think 4SV is the best choice because of Home’s impending release — the fresh meta is really exciting to me, current gen draws in tons of new talent, and we’d benefit way more from the additional SV development than SS — but if people prefer 2SS>4SV then I don’t particularly mind. The only thing I’m really adamant about here is BW’s inclusion, the tier has earned its spot at this point.

 

[shnowshner]

IMO

3 SV / 2 SS / 1 SM ORAS BW > 4 SV / 1 SS SM ORAS BW

Wanting to develop SV post-home is a noble idea but there's a good chance the metagame ends up genuinely awful from all the new additions, and I feel having half the slots be based around a volatile metagame would leave a lot of people discouraged. If SV ends up in a shitty spot at least managers can shift focus to past gens and aim to sweep there.

Plenty of people will want to sign up for SS or at least can play the tier, it's gonna be my #1 pick for sure, so two slots is definitely fieldable.

 

[Tadasuke]

Okay pals great discussion so far, everyone who's participated gets a free pony once I take office.

General consensus seems to be against Bo3 which was to be expected, and as such it will not be included in this iteration of CAPPL. However, we unfortunately move from a consensus to being contentious while discussing exactly which formats will make the final cut and how those formats are to be distributed. The lineups with the most support are those featuring 3 slots of SV CAP and 2 slots of SS CAP, however we seem fairly split on how to fill up the back end of the roster. With the discussion moving forward, I'd like to hopefully see us come to an agreement on whether we want 2 slots of SM and 1 slot of ORAS, or 1 slot each of SM, ORAS, and BW. If no agreement is reached I will personally call BALLSMASHER9000 and have him decide.

With regards to retains, I think the system laid out by spoo is quite sufficient. For the methodology regarding who actually gets retaining rights, we would allow returning managers priority over those simply wishing to take on the name of a previous team. Furthermore, if a previous team's captain and assistant manager both sign up as managers, the captain will be the one with the right to retain from that team. If neither manager from a preexisting team signs up, retaining rights will be given on a first come first serve basis.

I haven't seen much discussion on manager pricing and the overall point pool, so if people have any strong opinions on those issues please voice them now or complain two weeks later on discord when you feel mildly inconvenienced.

I'm looking to close this thread soon and have manager signups posted on either Sunday night or any time during the day on Monday depending how the discussion here progresses.

 

[Lasen]

If no agreement is reached I will personally call BALLSMASHER9000 and have him decide.

 

[Steam Buns]

If we want CAPPL to be a oldgen tour, then BW needs to be included. So far I'm not aware of any arguments against it because despite a handful of people suggesting lineups without BW, no one has actually given a reason why in this thread. In the last two years the barrier for entry to the tier has lowered significantly and the quality of games has started to become pretty good. The metagame definitely has some issues but I could personally find as much fault every other gen. BW is ready to be here.

 

[spoo]

Reiterating what I said about manager prices, 12.5k is way too low for a 120k pool. A small bump to 15k is still on the more reasonable side of things but stops strong players from going for dirt cheap. We’re a big enough community now that I think we can afford to lower the “incentive” for managers to buy themselves.

 

[Wulfanator]

As a SM stooge, I would personally like to see the 2 SM slots. In general, I am opposed to single slots. Having multiples of any tier helps build natural support into the team structure. It means the players currently slotted for the week can work together in their prep in conjunction with the manager investment they usually get. Having multiples of a tier also provides strategy for how to slot players each week. I would like to avoid having 3 solo slots, so I support

SV x3
SS x2
SM x2
ORAS

 

[Wulfanator]

Reiterating what I said about manager prices, 12.5k is way too low for a 120k pool. A small bump to 15k is still on the more reasonable side of things but stops strong players from going for dirt cheap. We’re a big enough community now that I think we can afford to lower the “incentive” for managers to buy themselves.

This didn't sit well with me the first time you suggested it, but I couldn't find the wording to adequately express my feelings against it.

As someone that would consider not drafting themselves, manager prices don't impact me significantly. That is why I haven't commented on pricing for this PL. It seems disingenuous to advocate for any price changes, specifically an increase, since it would only impact the other managers from my perspective. You have openly discussed the idea of neither you or your former assistant manager drafting themselves should you both manage again. I would call this a conflict of interest since, based on prior comments, you stand to benefit from removing more bidding power from other teams.

 

[spoo]

This didn't sit well with me the first time you suggested it, but I couldn't find the wording to adequately express my feelings against it.

As someone that would consider not drafting themselves, manager prices don't impact me significantly. That is why I haven't commented on pricing for this PL. It seems disingenuous to advocate for any price changes, specifically an increase, since it would only impact the other managers from my perspective. You have openly discussed the idea of neither you or your former assistant manager drafting themselves should you both manage again. I would call this a conflict of interest since, based on prior comments, you stand to benefit from removing more bidding power from other teams.

I can't speak for D2 but yes I don't plan to draft myself. Both things can be true, though: raised manager prices would put me at a slight comparative advantage, and manager prices are objectively too low right now. I don't think the current pricing system is conducive for a competitive tournament, which is something that is in all of our interests. Perhaps my opinion is biased here so I'll just provide some examples of what other tours are doing and stay out of this debate further.

Last CAPPL: 120k budget, 12.5k managers
10.4% of budget

NUPL: 120k budget, 15k managers (proposed amount)
12.5% of budget

OMPL: 100k budget, 13.5k managers
13.5% of budget

UPL: 120k budget, 20k managers
16.6% of budget

MPL: 100k budget, 20k managers
20% of budget

Other tours like UUPL, PUPL, and RUPL use formulaic manager pricing systems, which I would not be opposed to either. The challenge in the past has been to find a formula that makes everyone happy, but if we could settle on one, this is theoretically the most competitive pricing system.

 

[dex]

15k is fair to compensate for the wider skill range of CAPPL managers. As long as there's two SS slots I'm a happy clam, I don't really care what the others are.

 

[D2TheW]

Gm, just wanted to throw my support behind bws inclusion real quick. As one of the people who played it a bit in CL and helped support bw slots in the past, I've never found any major issues with bw so I figured I'd make a case for it.

Standard bw is pretty infamous for it's power level compared to other tiers, but the caps fit in with the tier pretty well as a result. Tomo and especially kitsunoh do a lot to check some of the nuttier threats without being totally overpowered themselves. The tier could obviously use some more development but it's not that far off oras which everyone (including me) is fine to include.

BW also hits a solid sweet spot for cap representation which I think is a major plus. There's enough quality caps that you can expect to see a cap or multiple in any given game, without there being too many to saturate the power level and turn the tier into a complete mess. This is in contrast to oras which has a couple of nutty caps and everything else is severely mid, and dpp which has 4 caps in the S or S- tier on the current vr. BW is in a spot where someone coming in with only knowledge of normal bw isn't gonna be totally lost but also can't just thoughtlessly load normal teams and be almost certainly fine. This is the kinda state I think we should be aiming for with cap tiers and bw is at least in that ballpark.

Lastly, I think being involved in the main event teamtour would do a lot to facilitate development of this tier, and keep it on the steady upwards trend it's been on for a while. BW is also just a popular gen and bw ou is a popular tier, so it should bring in at least a few quality signups.

All that said my preference would be
SV/SV/SV/SS/SS/SM/ORAS/BW

SS is the most developed and balanced cap gen we have and I think it'd be a shame to not give it two slots. SM can bite me.

As for manager prices, as Wulfanator correctly points out, I have publicly said I don't intend to self buy so I do have a conflict of interest. That said, I still think 35k per manager is more than fair based on inflation and the current state of the CAP Stock Market, in this essay I will

(Seriously tho, I do agree with spoo's points but it's obviously impossible for me to separate my self interest here so I'm happy with either his suggestion or last years prices)

 

[Tadasuke]

Okay pals time to close this up.

With regards to our weekly lineups, consensus in the thread seems to be leaning pretty solidly towards SV/SV/SV/SS/SS/SM/ORAS/BW, so that's what we're gonna go with.

Additionally there seems to be agreement on changing manager prices to 15k each.

Expect manager signups shortly.