Pokémon Delphox

[Shiruba]

is there any point in trying to run a defensive spread WoWer or is that always going to be outclassed by gardevior/mew?

Being defensive and weak to rocks is no bueno, particularly sans reliable recovery. I'd probably Gardevoir, just due to its much better typing, but Mew's great for the unpredictability and reliable recovery, and greater overall bulk.
{wouldn't really consider wish reliable recovery tbh, unless you run protect, and even then, easy to take advantage of}

 

[leafbarrett]

Psyshock > Psychic on all of Delphox's sets. I don't really understand the point in going with leftovers besides more time to survive with toxic spikes.

Stalling for time with Subs, mainly.

 

[kakuna02]

Stalling for time with Subs, mainly.

Oh, ok. I was confused. I still don't get putting Psychic over Psyshock.

 

[Age of Kings]

I feel like Delphox's Staple set will wind up being a SubCM set seeing as most Pokemon with a similar stat spread (Raikou) usually run this type of set, and it works well in conjunction with Blaze and Mystical Fire.

Raikou is bulkier than Delphox, faster, isn't weak to Stealth Rock or common priority, and has better switch-ins. I wouldn't say they have a "similar" stat spread in the least, what makes Sub+CM sweepers intimidating is lasting bulk and being able to set up in the first place. Delphox has neither of these luxuries. I can't think of many CM users period that don't have some amount of bulk.

 

[M BLADE]

Raikou is bulkier than Delphox, faster, isn't weak to Stealth Rock or common priority, and has better switch-ins. I wouldn't say they have a "similar" stat spread in the least, what makes Sub+CM sweepers intimidating is lasting bulk and being able to set up in the first place. Delphox has neither of these luxuries. I can't think of many CM users period that don't have some amount of bulk.

SubCM Delphox has one thing over Raikou, which is the ability to hit on the physical side (with Psyshock). That said, to me it's still outclassed, with the only other thing going for it being Magician (unfortunately). And that fast Will-o-Wisp, which, i repeat, it's very good to have.
And let's be honest, Delphox has decent special defensive stats, one CM is enough to survive most Hydro Pumps (the strongest special attack you'll meet).
I think her optimal set has Will-o-Wisp over Sub, and CM+2 STABs. Optimal enough to make Delphox OU? Hell no lol, but it's still it's best shot IMO (again, IMO. Fell free to disagree).
Well, at least Magician opens up a lot of choices (berries are the best shot), even if it isn't a overpowered ability. Or even powered at the first place...

 

[ZeeZee]

Raikou is bulkier than Delphox, faster, isn't weak to Stealth Rock or common priority, and has better switch-ins. I wouldn't say they have a "similar" stat spread in the least, what makes Sub+CM sweepers intimidating is lasting bulk and being able to set up in the first place. Delphox has neither of these luxuries. I can't think of many CM users period that don't have some amount of bulk.

How can you deny that their stat spread aren't similar? That's just flat out silly, Raikou just has better base stats overall, but the way the stats are distributed are roughly the same way. Also you are seriously underestimating its 75/100 special defensive potential. I'm not saying that its gonna be used over Raikou or anything, I'm just saying that it will be used in the same sort of vein as him, even if perhaps in a lower tier. The fact that you mentioned Delphox is weak to common priority only serves to prove my point that he needs substitute to ease guessing on switch ins. Gardevoir has a similar stat spread, has less overall bulk, and less speed, but guess what? Calm Mind is a viable set for it. That said, while fire isnt the greatest defensive typing, Delphox resists a total of 7 types, giving it a decent amount of things it can switch in to. Now I've made a list of reasons why i believe it should run substitute in its calm mind sets and I've updated the set you quoted a while ago.

My argument -

- It will block status ailments that would otherwise completely stop it from sweeping.

-After more Calm Mind boosts, Substitutes will begin being able to survive more hits, which will in turn allow you to activate extra Calm Mind boosts safely.

-Allows it to deal with checks on the switch, Pokemon that would otherwise be able to wall one of its attacks and hit it with a priority move for an OHKO or outspeed it are no longer a problem if Delphox can potentially KO it.
Example - Without substitute, an Aegislash can switch into a Psyshock/Psychic safely and force you to switch out due to shadow sneak, however, if you activate substitute instead of using an attack on the switch, shadow sneak will not be able to KO you and you can KO him back with a flamethrower. Essentially there's no need to predict your opponents next move and risk having to switch out your Calm Mind boosted Delphox when you can just safely hide behind a substitute.

- Its necessary to help Delphox deal with incoming Pursuit trappers, as substitute blocks pursuit on the switch.

-Substitute will also help Delphox achieve deciding whether or not to activate Blaze if necessary by cutting down its own HP slowly.

I think Delphox's standard set should look like this...

<p>name: Substitute + Calm Mind<br />
move 1: Substitute<br />
move 2: Calm Mind<br />
move 3: Flamethrower / Fire Blast<br />
move 4: Psyshock / Grass Knot<br />
ability: Blaze<br />
item: Leftovers<br />
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
nature: Timid</p>

<p>Substitute allows Delphox to absorb status ailments, deal with Pursuit trappers, take more hits after Calm Mind boosts, lose the need to predict on a forced switch, and trigger Blaze when you really need to. This in conjunction with Calm Mind allow it to find a role in teams as an effective special sweeper. Flamethrower is the standard STAB move of choice. Fire Blast is optional if more power is necessary and you do not mind the accuracy drop. Psyshock is the preferred secondary move of choice, as it gets around special walls that would otherwise cause it problems, has decent coverage with Flamethrower and is boosted by STAB. Grass knot is good for dealing with Water-types, but its damage output isn't very reliable as it will fail to OHKO many problematic Water-types such as Starmie. The EV spread and nature is necessary to maximize its Speed and power allowing it to outspeed threats, and be able to deal the most damage possible while unboosted. You can also opt to have an EV spread of 16HP / 252SpA / 240Spe if you don't mind being outsped by another Delphox and want just enough Speed EVs to outspeed Garchomp. The HP or Defense EVs are necessary to minimize damage from Stealth Rocks.</p>

<p>Pokemon with access to Rapid Spin are incredibly helpful. Forretress takes neutral damage from everything Delphox is weak to, can set up Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spin entry hazards. Pursuit trappers are also good at dealing with problematic Ghost-types and Psychic-types that resist its moves. Tyranitar fulfills this role well, as he resists Ghost-type attacks and is immune to Psychic-type attacks. Breloom Resists every type that Delphox is weak to except for Ghost. Hydreigon also resists every type Delphox is weak to except for Rock and is immune to Ground.</p>

<p>Checks and Counters - Tyranitar can take anything thrown at it and Pursuit it on the switch. Starmie and Greninja resist both its STAB moves, survive an unboosted Grass Knot and threaten to OHKO it with Hydro Pump. Blissey with Seismic Toss can wall sets that don't carry Psyshock. Talonflames can wall Grass Knot sets and OHKO it with Brave Bird. Choice Band Azumarill can easily take Grass Knots and OHKO it with Aqua Jet. Mega Khangaskan can break through Substitute thanks to its ability and has access to Crunch/Sucker Punch. Aegislash can switch into Psyshock/Grass Knot and OHKO it after Stealth Rocks with Shadow Sneak.</p>

 

[ChopperDave]

I know that the Power Herb/Magician trick is old hat at this point, but I ran into a Delphox today on wifi with Power Herb + Blast Burn and thought it was pretty nifty. Sure, you have a wasted move slot after that first use, but a 252EV STAB 150-power attach is definitely not fun to switch into, even if you resist it.

I bet you could use that to make Delphox into a decent, if somewhat gimmicky. Something like:

Name: Power Herb Burn + Magician
move 1: Blast Burn
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Psyshic / Psyshock
move 4: Grass Knot / Psyshock
ability: Magician
item: Power Herb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
nature: Timid

Pretty simple concept. Switch into something that Delphox resists / threatens, and Blast Burn.

If your opponent doesn't switch, you get a KO (probably) and a free item!

If they do switch, probably to something that walls/tanks you, they still get walloped pretty hard and lose their item at the same time (probably a Leftovers or an Assault Vest if it's a special wall). Then you can continue to thwack them with your other coverage moves, if you outspeed them, or switch off to one of your own counters.

 

[Shiruba]

^ Power Herb protects against charge turns like Sky Attack and Solar Beam, not recharge turns like Blast Burn and Giga Impact.

 

[ChopperDave]

Ack. Scratch that idea, then. Solar Beam is still an option but a lot less powerful :/

 

[FlyThai]

I know that the Power Herb/Magician trick is old hat at this point, but I ran into a Delphox today on wifi with Power Herb + Blast Burn and thought it was pretty nifty. Sure, you have a wasted move slot after that first use, but a 252EV STAB 150-power attach is definitely not fun to switch into, even if you resist it.

I bet you could use that to make Delphox into a decent, if somewhat gimmicky. Something like:

Name: Power Herb Burn + Magician
move 1: Blast Burn
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Psyshic / Psyshock
move 4: Grass Knot / Psyshock
ability: Magician
item: Power Herb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe<br />
nature: Timid

Pretty simple concept. Switch into something that Delphox resists / threatens, and Blast Burn.

If your opponent doesn't switch, you get a KO (probably) and a free item!

If they do switch, probably to something that walls/tanks you, they still get walloped pretty hard and lose their item at the same time (probably a Leftovers or an Assault Vest if it's a special wall). Then you can continue to thwack them with your other coverage moves, if you outspeed them, or switch off to one of your own counters.

Change this to Overheat and White Herb instead and its viable, its not like Delphox has many great options anyway

 

[ChopperDave]

Change this to Overheat and White Herb instead and its viable, its not like Delphox has many great options anyway

Yeah. The benefit of Overheat is that it is still viable even after the White Herb goes off, so you can swap Fire Blast with something that betters Delphox's coverage.

I just wish she got a slightly more extensive move pool. A fairy move like Dazzling Gleam or Moonblast would make sense thematically and really help make her more threatening. Maybe she'll get it when the move tutors arrive....

 

[Age of Kings]

How can you deny that their stat spread aren't similar? That's just flat out silly, Raikou just has better base stats overall, but the way the stats are distributed are roughly the same way. Also you are seriously underestimating its 75/100 special defensive potential. I'm not saying that its gonna be used over Raikou or anything, I'm just saying that it will be used in the same sort of vein as him, even if perhaps in a lower tier. The fact that you mentioned Delphox is weak to common priority only serves to prove my point that he needs substitute to ease guessing on switch ins. Gardevoir has a similar stat spread, has less overall bulk, and less speed, but guess what? Calm Mind is a viable set for it. That said, while fire isnt the greatest defensive typing, Delphox resists a total of 7 types, giving it a decent amount of things it can switch in to. Now I've made a list of reasons why i believe it should run substitute in its calm mind sets and I've updated the set you quoted a while ago.

"i mean it has better stats but they're kind of similar, right?" What? Don't ignore the points I brought up. You need bulk to be successful at Sub+CM. Even if we do accept that they do have similar spreads, Delphox's problems transcend beyond BST; I cannot think of any Sub+boosting move user period that is vulnerable to every type of entry hazard. Also, Fire/Psychic is pretty poor coverage in comparison to Electric/Ice or Electric/Fighting, you have solid stops in Houndoom, Crawdaunt, Sharpedo, enemy Delphox, and Slowpoke family, and that's before you get into the nitty gritty of what it can and cannot OHKO/2HKO after a boost. If you're going to include standard Pokemon as you did in your mini-write-up, the list significantly expands. To your credit, it has just enough bulk that Infiltrator Crobat misses the OHKO.

Continuing on the comparison, what can Delphox set up on? You mention 7 resistances but its 5 weaknesses are extremely common. You're ignoring the scenario that you may not even get the opportunity to get Sub, let alone a CM. Pretty much the only things it can set up on are bulky Grasses like Tangrowth and Amoonguss (it can't switch into Gogoat and Torterra) and utility Steels..and I'm entirely unsure what else. Raikou's power comes from the fact that it has half the tier to choose from. Ok, that's an exaggeration, but there are many less things to threaten to stop it. As for Gardevoir, I admittedly have not played NU since gen 4 so I have no idea what conditions were like in NU but my impression from reading its analysis is that Gardevoir was still rare. It's also gained many toys: a new type, powerful STAB, a mega evolution. However, we have no idea how the metas will settle right now since there's a clear power creep happening even in the lower tiers. And I feel that Delphox is outmatched and outclassed if it tries to run any set that gets too busy. Sub by itself is fine. CM by itself is fine, if vulnerable. Putting the two together is not going to consistently work.

 

[ZeeZee]

"i mean it has better stats but they're kind of similar, right?" What? Don't ignore the points I brought up. You need bulk to be successful at Sub+CM. Even if we do accept that they do have similar spreads, Delphox's problems transcend beyond BST; I cannot think of any Sub+boosting move user period that is vulnerable to every type of entry hazard. Also, Fire/Psychic is pretty poor coverage in comparison to Electric/Ice or Electric/Fighting, you have solid stops in Houndoom, Crawdaunt, Sharpedo, enemy Delphox, and Slowpoke family, and that's before you get into the nitty gritty of what it can and cannot OHKO/2HKO after a boost. If you're going to include standard Pokemon as you did in your mini-write-up, the list significantly expands. To your credit, it has just enough bulk that Infiltrator Crobat misses the OHKO.

Continuing on the comparison, what can Delphox set up on? You mention 7 resistances but its 5 weaknesses are extremely common. You're ignoring the scenario that you may not even get the opportunity to get Sub, let alone a CM. Pretty much the only things it can set up on are bulky Grasses like Tangrowth and Amoonguss (it can't switch into Gogoat and Torterra) and utility Steels..and I'm entirely unsure what else. Raikou's power comes from the fact that it has half the tier to choose from. Ok, that's an exaggeration, but there are many less things to threaten to stop it. As for Gardevoir, I admittedly have not played NU since gen 4 so I have no idea what conditions were like in NU but my impression from reading its analysis is that Gardevoir was still rare. It's also gained many toys: a new type, powerful STAB, a mega evolution. However, we have no idea how the metas will settle right now since there's a clear power creep happening even in the lower tiers. And I feel that Delphox is outmatched and outclassed if it tries to run any set that gets too busy. Sub by itself is fine. CM by itself is fine, if vulnerable. Putting the two together is not going to consistently work.

I did not ignore your point, I quote, "Also you are seriously underestimating its 75/100 special defensive potential." Perhaps I didn't elaborate on it enough, but I did not ignore your point. As I mentioned before, yes it has 7 resistances over Raikous like 3 resistances, even if it doesn't have much physical bulk, it can still switch into a lot of attacks if you predict correctly obviously because it can resist many types. You can easily set up on a ton of mons behind a Substitute, after all substitute blocks a lot of moves such as status moves. You can calm mind on Pokemon you threaten to KO with Psyshock or Flamethrower where if you predict correctly you might force your opponent to switch. You can sub to check if mons have a move that's SE against you. Many fairy types carry Moonblast and a fire type move for coverage leaving them with little ways to deal with you. Vulnerable to entry hazards? Isn't Raikou still affected by all of them? Or am I missing something? The coverage might not be as good, but the combination has noteworthy advantages over Raikou's. Unlike Raikou, Delphox can get STAB on both of its coverage moves and can actually do something to special walls with Psyshock. And he doesn't need to sacrifice power by using a hidden power move (Which by the way was also nerfed this generation.) As for the Pokemon your combo cannot counter, you would rely on a team mate to get rid of them. I doubt you could deal with those Pokemon anyways even if you carried a third move in grass knot or whatever else would be necessary to deal with these mons. Grass knot has shown that it fails to OHKO a lot of crucial mons even after a Calm Mind boost (Think Starmie and even Greninja). Essentially carrying a third move would usually be useful just to deal with like one single mon that's a problem. if you carry shadow ball you still can't deal with any of these dark types, if you carry grass knot you still cant deal with houndoom, Delphox. I personally think its pointless over the luxury that substitute provides you. And that you would be better off having team mates to take care of those problems first. And you can actually potentially OHKO Sharpedo after one stage or from a boost attained from blaze after multiple substitutes with Fire Blast.

That said maybe it wont be the most optimal set, but its certainly a viable option for it in my opinion. I've used it quite a bit and its personally worked for me.

 

[El Coqui]

The only sets ive run are a CM set and a Specs set. Specs FireBlast is hobestly so powerful its scary to face. I want to run magician just dont know what kind to go with: herbs, berries, etc

 

[CerberusSONE]

I would run Heat Wave instead of Flamthrower or Fire Blast.
Higher BP than Flamethrower, better Accuracy than Fire Blast.
How are the calculations on CM and Heat Wave?

 

[Quaily]

5 bp for 10% accuracy? not a good trade

 

[Toljik]

Why does a Pokemon with no place in OU still have a thread here, let alone a 13 page one? It's RU material, UU at best.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Why does a Pokemon with no place in OU still have a thread here, let alone a 13 page one? It's RU material, UU at best.

This guys, is an example of the fan fucking tastic quality and totally not ignorant and unknowledgable posts to here on smogon, this simply splendid and flawless poster somehow doesn't have more badges than chaos, why? [/endsarcasm]

 

[Shiruba]

This guys, is an example of the fan fucking tastic quality and totally not ignorant and unknowledgable posts to here on smogon, this simply splendid and flawless poster somehow doesn't have more badges than chaos, why? [/endsarcasm]

I dunno, I thought it was a good question. Care to explain why it was an ignorant post lacking in knowledge?

I guess because it's a new Pokemon and it's a starter, so people want to talk about it because it's new and they might have picked it in-game. It's also not complete ass like Dedenne, and even that got its own thread.

PS: How many badges do you have, tough guy?

 

[Monte Cristo]

PS: How many badges do you have, tough guy?

I can already tell that this thread is going to turn into a shit thread of e-cock flexing

 

[kakuna02]

Would Lum Berry be good on Magician Delphox, or is there an other preferred berry?

 

[kakuna02]

Why does a Pokemon with no place in OU still have a thread here, let alone a 13 page one? It's RU material, UU at best.

Lol, why even post this? That was pointless.

 

[CerberusSONE]

Would Lum Berry be good on Magician Delphox, or is there an other preferred berry?

Would not holding an item in the first place be better for Magician Delphox?
Also, Petaya Berry and Blaze would probably be better for her.

 

[Monte Cristo]

How so? Many people in this thread agree that Delphox isn't OU material, especially posts from the last few pages.

Lol, why even post this? That was pointless.

 

[kakuna02]

The only sets ive run are a CM set and a Specs set. Specs FireBlast is hobestly so powerful its scary to face. I want to run magician just dont know what kind to go with: herbs, berries, etc

Maybe Weakness Policy?