DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Sir Spanky]

Exactly. I was only getting at the dumb Honchkrow set earlier, not his stance in UU.

With a decent enough threat, such as the one above, or CB/Scarf, it is too good there and should be BL.

 

[Gmax]

Well, screw that set, at least its been proved that Krow is BL without doubt, and my dear Thunderpup, I didn't go around calling you an idiot earlier, and I see no reason for you to be calling me one. So cut the crap. And that set isn't crap if you use it right. "Subseeders" are grass types. And anyway, Pursuit will easily break their subs after a Screech.

About how my poke is pretty sad when it switches into something that has set up, I'd like to point out that a sweeper doesn't kill stuff that has set up. It is meant to set up on them/slam them. And I never said it was unbeatable, I just said it could smash a lot of stuff up in UU if it switched into a CB EQ or a Specs Psychic or maybe a Hypnosis or something.

 

[Forsety]

Shoddy has gotten a lot better in a few months, and many bugs have been wiped off of it. So I don't see whats so bad about testing UU in it... it has already more or less defined an OU metagame for us. And now it has a ladder system IMO superior to GameWinners right now (in theory and implementation), and with the server enforcing the clauses, it is nearly impossible to break the rules.

You should give shoddy a go :-p

Actually theres more bugs, I've come across ones like Disable not doing what its supposed to do. Cute Charm ignoring gender, Pursuit being affected by confusion (When the effect activates it ignores confusion in game), all hits of multi-hit moves being counted for Counter/Mirror Coat etc.

Theres also the slight matter in general Java sucks in principle and the game enjoys crashing on me whenever I play it. I think I'll stick to the actual game...or Competitor after bug testing.

In my opinion, Abomasnow makes Glacia (Glaceon yea whatever) a whole more useable, due to evasion hax.

For the last goddamn time people. Abomasnow is already BL.

Hail on its own is a crappy weather effect with no stat benefits on its own besides accurate Blizzard and a major disadvantage to any non-Ice team making Glaceon in Hail a obscure argument as far as UU is concerned.

 

[Shigeru]

There should be a NEU (Never-ever-used) list just for Luvdisc and Unown. ;D

 

[Elminster12]

There should be a NEU (Never-ever-used) list just for Luvdisc and Unown. ;D

Unown haz n0 weak nub!

Sarcasm aside, Honchkrow always struck me as a bit too hard a hitter for UU to handle. Glaceon without Hail, I could see working, for sure. Yeah, it hits hard, but its defenses aren't that great(no thanks to its HP) and its speed is average. And the Ice-type sucks no matter what tier you're in. It'll be good, but it probably won't overcentralize things. I lean towards inclusion, if only because it seems easier to me to say, "Yeah, ok, we were wrong. It IS too strong, it needs to be BL" than it is to determine it should be moved down from BL...

 

[Pneuma]

While messing around with a 252/252 Honchkrow the other day, I ran into Cresselia's unSTABbed Ice Beam and took like 51%. Between Roost and Sucker Punch, turns out he can handle her moderately well. (Can take a Charge beam even better but can't really afford to let her boost up.)

It just struck me as odd considering everyone knocks on his "lol no defenses" without considering the fact that he has over 9000 hit points. I could easily see a 252atk/252spdef set surviving things you wouldn't expect it to survive.

Honchkrow reminds me a LOT of Hariyama, actually.

 

[MajinNecro69]

Honchkrow sounds like a good candidate for BL, based on all the attacks he can Critical Hit (w/ Super Luck), his beastly HP and ATK. The thing keeping him from Standard is his super slow speed.

Magmortar is definitely BL, as although he's the Special variant of Electivire, he can't be as versatile, and he doesn't have a godly ability to absorb fire and speed up as a result.

I've got a candidate for BL: Kingler. Kingler's usefulness has definitely gone up this generation, and he can make use of Crabhammer & Waterfall. The only thing I can see wrong with him is his low speed.

 

[Steven718]

I've got a candidate for BL: Kingler. Kingler's usefulness has definitely gone up this generation, and he can make use of Crabhammer & Waterfall. The only thing I can see wrong with him is his low speed.

That's all great, but how does Kingler unbalance UU in any way?

 

[Deathroad]

sorry to sound stupid but where is crobat?

edit: in case u need reasons:
1. he technically might be the fastest non-uber that can sleep
2. speed is useful for starting off and statusing?
3. hes now has brave bird, a better poison and u-turn..
so no crobat in even BL?!?!?
o wells im just a noob passing by so... feel free to flame me >_>

 

[Fishin]

I really can't see Kingler being BL. 130 base attack is pretty damn powerful in UU (and, though he lacks an ice attack to deal with grass types, he does have X-scissor), but Kingler is also fairly slow and fairly easy to kill (on the special side of things, anyways). Quagsire takes 37.56% - 44.16% from an Adamant CB return, Pelipper takes 41.05% - 48.15%, and Gastrodon takes 39.67% - 46.48%, which is pretty strong...but the point bears repeating about it's slow speed and fragility (which also prevent it from being a real solid Swords Dance user, though it's still a threat). I can see him being one of the better UU pokemon and certainly a threat that needs to be accounted for when building a UU team, but not something that completely unbalances UU.

Edit: Oh, wait, Gastrodon is neutral to water. Forget that, then.

Azumarill I did want to bring up, though. I'm not sure if Metalkid's calculator has Huge Power put in correctly, though (Huge Power is supposed to double attack, but on the calc it gives less of a boost than +2 attack). So...eh.

 

[X-Act]

Honchkrow has about the same survivability as Lucario and Medicham.

 

[sanjay120]

No, Honchkrow has about the same survivability as Hariyama.

Metalkid's calc does werid things to Huge Power. BD Azu Return does 3-4 damage to max HP/Def Impish Tangrowth? While Ice Punch can OHKO?

EDIT: Ah, I see. Return is programmed to do min damage or something. >.< But Huge Power doesn't seem to be working either. Neither does Pure Power.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

No, Honchkrow has about the same survivability as Hariyama.

Hariyama has 44 more base HP and 8 more base defenses, as well as less weaknesses. How is that the same?

 

[sanjay120]

Honchkrow gets Roost. Also it's a better match than Lucario or Medicham.

 

[Akatsuki]

I think that Regice should definately belong in OU because it just seems that there are fewer specialized special walls in comparison to specialized physical walls.

Commonly seen pure physical walls include Gliscor, Donphan, Skarmory,
and maybe Hippowdon (pardon me if I missed any).

Commonly seen pure special walls include some variations of Cresselia, Blissey (but Blissey walls just about everything), and maybe some others.

In addition to that, STABed Ice Beam with Thunderbolt off of a base 100 Sp. Atk is actually very good. Add that with Restalking and you've got a great special wall with BoltBeam.

 

[X-Act]

Regice is already BL. There's nothing that separates OU and BL Pokemon except usage.

 

[Mercenary Raven]

Honchkrow gets Roost. Also it's a better match than Lucario or Medicham.

I'm not going to argue Lucario or Medicham, although Medicham is in its tier. However, Hariyama gets Slack Off now doesn't he? If not, Sleep Talk/Rest will do, seeing as it can pull that off decently well (Hariyama that is). Hariyama's higher defensive stats definitely make it better than Honchkrow even when it has Roost. >_>

Even in which case, I'm wondering how you're going to get away with using Roost.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I think that some more Non-Fully Evolved Pokemon need to be in BL. Some things like Kadabra, Chansey, Rhydon, Magneton may ruin UU. Think about it, Magneton and Chansey would be OU if they didnt evolve.

 

[Rudoku]

I think that some more Non-Fully Evolved Pokemon need to be in BL. Some things like Kadabra, Chansey, Rhydon, Magneton may ruin UU. Think about it, Magneton and Chansey would be OU if they didnt evolve.

The only reason why Magneton was OU in the first place was because of how whored out Skarmory was. It's special movepool is worse than Glaceon's.

 

[Fishin]

Honchkrow gets Roost. Also it's a better match than Lucario or Medicham.

Having Roost doesn't automaticially increase it's durability. If something is too frail or is better off attacking, people generally won't use a healing move on it. How often do you see Recover Medicham, or Slack Off Infernape?

However, Hariyama gets Slack Off now doesn't he?

No, Hariyama doesn't get Slack Off. Restalk works pretty well on him, though. Btw, Thick Fat gives him an additional 2 resistances (though on a Restalk set I might be more inclined to use Guts, as sleeping gives you the 50% attack bonus IIRC). But anyways...Hariyama's definitely more durable than Honchkrow.

I think that some more Non-Fully Evolved Pokemon need to be in BL. Some things like Kadabra, Chansey, Rhydon, Magneton may ruin UU. Think about it, Magneton and Chansey would be OU if they didnt evolve.

I think someone mentioned this before...some NFE's are definitely BL, like Chansey and Rhydon, but they weren't listed on the tier list. I don't know the exact list, though.

Metalkid's calc does werid things to Huge Power. BD Azu Return does 3-4 damage to max HP/Def Impish Tangrowth? While Ice Punch can OHKO?

Huh...In that case, +2 attack is probably the correct boost that Huge Power gives...I'll have to try that again.

 

[QibingZero]

NFEs have not been allowed in UU in the past unless they distinctly stand out from their evolved forms (ex: Scizor-Scyther). There's no way in hell Kadabra, Chansey, Rhydon, or Magneton would be in UU even if they didn't fit that description, so don't worry about it. =P

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

The only reason why Magneton was OU in the first place was because of how whored out Skarmory was. It's special movepool is worse than Glaceon's.

And if Magnezone didnt exist, Magneton would still be the no.1 counter for Skarmory, which would probably mean hed still be common enough to be OU. Maybe not, as Skarmory isnt that common anymore, but hes got to be BL, or else hed get used in UU like theres no tommorrow. Its got 13 resistances and base 125 Special Attack if I recall correctly. Is that not good enough for UU?

 

[Goodbar]

I'm surprised to see Mamoswine in OU, he has great attack and hp, and fair defense and speed. He could be nice with over 100 hp substitutes, curse, and two powerful stab moves (120 on avalanche being slow). Choice scarf mamo might also be decent, although ice fang is particularly weak in base power. Snow cloak also helps it, although I wouldn't plan on seeing many hail teams in UU

 

[lincarnate]

I hate to quote myself, but I REALLY think Crobat needs some discussion and I have seen almost none involving it.

Crobat should definitely be in BL. Base 130 speed means it outspeeds all but a handful of UU Pokemon without a +Speed nature. With one, it is outsped only by scarfers and Electrode. It has above average defenses (85/80/80) and good typing (three 4x resists and one immunity) to go along with Hypnosis, Roost and U-Turn. Offensively, it can either use a Choice Band set with a STABbed Brave Bird or a Nasty Plot set with Air Slash/HP Fighting/Dark Pulse and hit everything in UU at least neutral and hit many, many things super effective. I just can't see a sure-fire counter against it in UU.

Whether you agree or disagree, it needs some talk.

 

[Fishin]

Whether you agree or disagree, it needs some talk.

I already mentioned this, but all physical variants of Crobat are walled to hell by the Rock/Steel types (immune to poison, 2x resist psychic, 4x resist flying, normal, bug, neutral to steel). Crobat can't even inflict a scratch with Steel Wing, even if it does hypnosis them. The only variant that is worth discussing as being overpowered for UU is the special sweeping one, and IMO that one is worth considering for BL, since 70 sp atk is pretty powerful after a Plot and Flying/Fighting (Air Slash and HP) hits everything in UU except Rotom neutral, and it can fill the last slot with Roost which is definitely useful given it's decent (for UU) defenses and high speed, or Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse to hit the special walls of UU pretty hard. Too bad Hypnosis is illegal with Plot.