Forretress

[Dan Dan]

Forretress

The premier Rapid Spinner of the previous three generations returns for Round 4. No doubt it will remain a popular choice this time around, but how will it fare against the new threats, and older foes with new tricks?

This thread is dedicated to the discussion of the Pokemon competitively, not whether it will or will not be banned.

[B]#445 Forretress[/B]

Typing: [IMG]http://pkmn.net/dex/type/bug.png[/IMG] / [IMG]http://pkmn.net/dex/type/steel.png[/IMG] 

[B]Ability 1: Sturdy[/B] - [COLOR=Black]The Pokémon is protected against 1-hit KO attacks. Horn
Drill, Fissure, Guillotine, Sheer Cold will fail, [COLOR=Red][B]while [/B][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=Red][B]any attack meant to
OHKO will leave it with 1 HP[/B].[/COLOR]

[B]Ability 2: (Dream World) Dustproof[/B] - This Pokémon is immune to Hail or Sand

HP:  75
Atk: 90
Def: 140
SpA: 60
SpD: 60
Spe: 40

[B]Pre-Evo Moves:[/B] 
None

[B]Level-Up Moves:[/B] 
Lv1  - [COLOR=Navy][B]Toxic Spikes[/B][/COLOR]
Lv1  - Tackle
Lv1  - Protect
Lv6  - Selfdestruct
Lv9  - Bug Bite
Lv12 - Take Down
Lv17 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Rapid Spin[/B][/COLOR]
Lv20 - Bide
Lv23 - Natural Gift
Lv28 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Spikes[/B][/COLOR]
Lv31 - Mirror Shot
Lv32 - Body Purge
Lv36 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Payback[/B][/COLOR]
Lv42 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Explosion[/B][/COLOR]
Lv46 - Iron Defense
Lv50 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Gyro Ball[/B][/COLOR]
Lv56 - Double-edge
Lv60 - Magnet Rise
Lv64 - Zap Cannon
Lv70 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Heavy Bomber[/B][/COLOR]

 Body Purge: Steel Other / PP: 15 / Power - / Accuracy: - 
Sharply Raises Speed

 Heave Bomber: Steel Physical / PP: 10 / Power: - / Accuracy: 100
The heavier the user is, the more damage it deals.

[B]TM Moves:[/B] 
TM06 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Toxic[/B][/COLOR]
TM09 - Venom Shock
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM16 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Light Screen[/B][/COLOR]
TM17 - Protect
TM21 - Frustration
TM22 - Solarbeam
TM26 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Earthquake[/B][/COLOR]
TM27 - Return
TM28 - Dig
TM32 - Double Team
TM33 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Reflect[/B][/COLOR]
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM42 - Facade
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM48 - Sing A Round
TM64 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Explosion[/B][/COLOR]
TM66 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Payback[/B][/COLOR]
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM69 - Rock Polish
TM72 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Volt Change[/B][/COLOR]
TM74 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Gyro Ball[/B][/COLOR]
TM76 - Bug Opposition
TM78 - Level Ground
TM80 - [COLOR=Navy][B]Rock Slide[/B][/COLOR]
TM87 - Swagger
TM90 - Substitute
TM91 - Flash Cannon
TM94 - Rock Smash
HM04 - Strength

 Venom Shock: Poison Special / PP: 10 / Power: 65 / Accuracy: 100
Power doubles if target is already Poisoned.

 Sing A Round: Normal Special / PP: 15 / Power: 60 / Accuracy: 100
Raises Base Power the more Pokémon you have with the attack.

 [COLOR=Navy][B]Volt Change[/B][/COLOR]: Electric Special / PP: 20 / Power: 70 / Accuracy: 100
After this attack is used, if this attack is successful, if user has at least
1 HP, and if user's party has at least one non-active Pokémon and the opposing
Pokemon's party has at least one unfainted Pokémon that isn't an egg, this
attack causes the user to switch even if it cannot switch. (The new Pokémon
becomes active immediately. Effect of Destiny Bond and Grudge takes precedence
over this attack's effect.)

 Bug Opposition: Bug Special / PP: 20 / Power: 30 / Accuracy: 100
May decrease opponent's Special Attack by 1 stage.

 Level Ground: Ground Physical / PP: 20 / Power: 60 / Accuracy: 100
May decrease opponent's Speed by 1 stage.

[B]Egg Moves:
[/B]Pin Missile, Flail, Swift, [COLOR=Navy][B]Counter[/B][/COLOR], Sand Tomb, Revenge, Double-edge, [COLOR=Navy][B]
Toxic Spikes[/B][/COLOR], Power Trick, Endure, [COLOR=Navy][B]Stealth Rock[/B][/COLOR]

So Forry didn't get much new, but it's about what he retained - Stealth Rock. With access to all 3 entry hazards and the ability to spin them, I think it's safe to say Forretress will see some usage this generation. Forretress still has 9 resistances and an immunity giving it plenty of opportunity to switch in and do it's job. One particular move that appears in his movepool, somewhat oddly, is Volt Change. This gives Forretress a means of escape against trappers, and a good scouting move to see what wants to set up on you.

Heavy Bomber may be worth a mention, but i'm not sure on the mechanics and whether it would outdamage Gyro Ball in most situations:

A) 120 base power, if target´s weight is lower or equal to 1/5 (20%) of user´s weight
B) 100 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/5 (20%) of user´s weight and lower or equal to 1/4 (25%) of user´s weight
C) 80 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/4 (25%) of user´s weight and lower or equal to 1/2 (50%) of user´s weight
D) 60 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/3 (33.3%) of user´s weight and lower or equal to 1/2 of user´s weight (50%)
E) 40 base power, if target´s weight is greater than 1/2 (50%) of user´s weight

Confusing. Gyro Ball vs. Heavy Bomber gogogo.

Moving onto movesets..

[SET]
Name: Checkma-
Move 1: Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Gyro Ball
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Volt Change / Earthquake
Ability: Sturdy
Item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
Nature: Relaxed, 0 Spe IV
EVs: 252 HP | 112 Atk | 144 Def

Looks like your run-of-the-mill Physically Defensive set, and it pretty much is, except for Volt Change in the final slot. You can escape Magnezone's Magnet Pull as well as Shanderaa and Wobbuffet's Shadow Tag and go to your own Choice Scarfer (Garchomp springs to mind...). In Gen 4, Gyarados used to love coming in on Forry and grab a DD, now you can smack it for 4x effective damage and go to something more suitable.

Earthquake is a solid option in the fourth slot as it does 61.83% - 73.28% to 4/0 Shanderaa and OHKOs 4/0 Magnezone, but you cannot escape The Wobb. It also leaves you at mercy to Dusclops/noir and other slow Ghosties. Payback leaves you completely screwed against Magnezone, but you can hit Ghost types...Wobb still wins (32.2% - 37.9% with Payback).

[SET]
Name: Specially Defensive
Move 1: Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Gyro Ball
Move 3: Rapid Spin
Move 4: Volt Change / Payback
Ability: Sturdy
Item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
Nature: Sassy, 0 Spe IV
EVs: 252 HP | 4 Def | 252 SDef

Same again really for the Specially Defensive set, except it needs those SDef EVs, meaning you miss the KO on Magnezone with EQ, however you still 2hko Shandera.

If you mispredict, trappers will still get you.. so Shed Shell is still the safest option. However, we all know how good Leftovers are...what will you use?
​

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

Looks like Forry got a great new toy: Volt Change.

I would go with a set of Volt Change/SR/Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin, as switching out of Tag Pokes is very important to this set. And so is getting Toxic Spikes down, along with SR.

Unfortunately, Shanderaa is the latest Spin-Blocking tormenter of Forry. So I would Volt Change out, doing some damage on the way.

 

[The Messiah]

calmpokemaster the problem with the tagg pokemon is they are all a lot faster than forretress, this toy is designed probs to come in, take the hit, volt change out on the turn your in and find a relevant counter,

changed my mind its a good way to lure out shanderaa and heatran and kill it easily

 

[Donny Mae.]

Volt Change is going to be a mainstay on Forry. I mean, now it finally has a way out of Magnezone/ Chandelier. Thing is though, you'd have to predict it coming in, as I'm sure both are fast :L

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

calmpokemaster the problem with the tagg pokemon is they are all a lot faster than forretress, this toy is designed probs to come in, take the hit, volt change out on the turn your in and find a relevant counter,

changed my mind its a good way to lure out shanderaa and heatran and kill it easily

Exactly, especially Shanderaa, who sees Forry as set-up bait, and will try CM your face, but will be met by an appropriate counter. Thus, you get up your hazards, and also get a good chance of eliminating a big threat.

 

[Giulls]

Since you're unsure on Heavy Bomber's mechanics, you can find them on this post.
In order for Heavy Bomber to outdamage Gyro Ball's damage against a Max EV Speed base 100 Pokemon, the Pokemon needs to weigh between 1 and 138 lbs. The slower the Pokemon you're facing, the better Heavy Bomber is (obviously). However, slower Pokemon are usually heavier Pokemon, which also means that Heavy Bomber loses some power as well.

 

[blasphemy1]

Forretress has some competition with Nattorei who can set up Stealth Rock and Spikes, but also has key resistances to Water, Electric, and Rock. It also has Power Whip, which means it isn't set up fodder for Gyarados and the likes. However, Forretress has a lot of unique attributes. It resists Bug, is neutral to Fighting, and resists Ice. It has Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin, which means it can aid your team in many more ways than Nattorei. Its neutrality to Fighting means it can check Gengar pretty well, since Shadow Ball + Focus Blast never 2HKOs. In fact, Focus Blast + Focus Blast never 2HKOs, which means you can Payback it for good damage. This is assuming the specially defensive spread, of course.

Volt Change seems excellent, but not at all for the reasons you all are stating. It is useful because it allows you to scout the opponent's Ghost-type, their Pokemon to block Rapid Spin. Volt Change -> Scarf Tyranitar seems like a very useful strategy, considering Rotom-A is no longer Ghost-type (the only common defensive ghost that neutered TTar).

 

[Dan Dan]

Yeah, I thought about comparing it to Nattorei but in the end i think they'll fill different niches. Nattorei can't spin, but has Thunder Wave and great special defense to back up it's typing. Forry needs to rely on a lot of SDef EVs to make the most of it's typing.

 

[EvilMario]

Dustproof makes Forretress a reliable member of Hail now (albeit, another Fire liability).

 

[IcyMan28]

Yeah, I thought about comparing it to Nattorei but in the end i think they'll fill different niches. Nattorei can't spin, but has Thunder Wave and great special defense to back up it's typing. Forry needs to rely on a lot of SDef EVs to make the most of it's typing.

I actually think the two of them would work quite well together; specially defensive Nattorei and physically defensive Forry would be quite the core, and tossing in a Slowbro/Shandera/Burunkeru would add in the final Fire/Fighting resist. Between the 3 of them, you could have quite the range of entry hazards (though Nattorei can only carry one of Spikes and Stealth Rock, while Forry is the only one to get Toxic Spikes).

 

[UltraStorm]

Between the 3 of them, you could have quite the range of entry hazards (though Nattorei can only carry one of Spikes and Stealth Rock, while Forry is the only one to get Toxic Spikes).

Nattorei can use both but it can't have Leech Seed in that case. However, it does lack Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin.

 

[IcyMan28]

Nattorei can use both but it can't have Leech Seed in that case. However, it does lack Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin.

It can't actually; all users of Stealth Rock come from the Mineral egg group (minus Torterra), while Spikes users are in the Plant egg group. I'm thinking a defensive core along these lines could work:

Forretress@Leftovers
Impish; 252 HP / 112 Atk / 144 Def

Rapid Spin
Earthquake
Volt Change
Stealth Rock

Forretress gets Stealth Rock because it only has to be used once; the bagworm's lower SpD means it will be coming in on physical attackers alone. Rapid Spin is standard while Earthquake allows it to do some damage. With Volt Change on the set, Forry can scout for Magnezone and Shandera (though EQ already hits them) and is thus able to comfortably run Leftovers.

Nattorei@Shed Shell
Careful; 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD

Spikes
Leech Seed
Power Whip
Gyro Ball / Thunder Wave

With its higher defenses on both sides and equally as useful typing, Nattorei will have plenty of opportunities to set up multiple Spikes. Leech Seed provides pseudo-recovery, which is appreciated outside of Leftovers. Power Whip prevents it from becoming set-up fodder, and the last slot adds more utility.

Burunkeru@Leftovers
Bold; 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 SpD

Recover
Will-O-Wisp
Boiling Water
Shadow Ball / Ice Beam

Burunkeru patches up the holes. It is never 2HKOd by max SpA LO HP Grass from Blaziken, even after rocks, and Boiling Water combines with Will-o-Wisp and hits high HP to patch its defenses.

 

[heroic poke]

Being a casual competitor, I don't really do number crunching, but from experience, and just by looking at the numbers, will Volt Change do enough damage to Wobb such that a Mirror Coat will Forry before it retreats to the bench? I mean, he's got crap SAtk.

 

[Scepticallistic]

Being a casual competitor, I don't really do number crunching, but from experience, and just by looking at the numbers, will Volt Change do enough damage to Wobb such that a Mirror Coat will Forry before it retreats to the bench? I mean, he's got crap SAtk.

Mirror Coat would actually hit your switch-in, if it has the same mechanics as U-turn did.

 

[heroic poke]

Oh yeah? I thought I heard somewhere they'd changed that...oh well :) But either way, I don't think whatever you're switching in would be hurt that much, right? Assuming Forry's crap SAtk stat and medium Base Power for Volt Change.

 

[PlatinumDude]

I was surprised when I learned that Forretress got Volt Change, and not U-turn. While U-turn would STAB on Forretress, at least Forretress has a way of escaping trappers as well as damaging bulky waters (bar those who are part Ground).

 

[Frost Nocturne]

It can't actually; all users of Stealth Rock come from the Mineral egg group (minus Torterra), while Spikes users are in the Plant egg group.

It can, actually. Nattorei can get Stealth Rock and Spikes from Iwaperasu, the Bug/Rock Hermit Crab.

 

[Wafflez]

Well Forry seems pretty same ol same ol....The only new a shiny thing i can see is Volt Change but why would you want to scout with Forry anyway?I'd just spend the turn putting up my hazards or Spinning if necessary.

 

[heroic poke]

Well Forry seems pretty same ol same ol....The only new a shiny thing i can see is Volt Change but why would you want to scout with Forry anyway?I'd just spend the turn putting up my hazards or Spinning if necessary.

When Shed Shell does the same thing, right? I dunno, but Volt Change does allow you to hold Lefties, for whatever good that's worth, and I'm sure it's worth something.

-Stealth Rock/Toxic Spikes
-Spikes/Toxic Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Volt Change

Basically I'm just dropping Gyro Ball. Or I can forgo one entry hazard if I have another Poke who can lay down that hazard and still have Gyro Ball with Volt Change, but the above moveset I listed might work just as well. As you said, you'd rather be either Spinning or Spiking/Rocking than anything else (my Forry rarely gets to Gyro Ball anyway when I spend two turns laying hazards or coming in to spin), at least Volt Change gives it a chance to run while still dealing a bit of damage on the way out, and you still hold Lefties.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

I would say have BOTH Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and give SR to another Poke. Whatver you do, dont remove Volt Change. Give Forry something like Lefties or even a Lum berry. So, you dont need to fear Shanderaa trapping you or setting up on you.

 

[shipship]

It's not that simple.

With Volt Change you still have to predict trappers and use it on the turn they switch in. Forretress is one of the slowest pokemon so if they switch in and you didn't use Volt Change that turn, you are still screwed.

Shed Shell allows you to do whatever you want and switch out whenever you want.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

I agree that it requires a good amount of prediction to pull off, but using Volt Change frees up the item slot. Otherwise, go with Shed Shell, and use Payback/Gyro Ball instead of Volt Change.

 

[shipship]

It's not only prediction, but giving you more turns.

If you expect a trapper to switch in you have to use Volt Change right away. With Shed Shell you can just keep Spiking without regard and switch after they come in.

 

[Delko]

With Dustproof Forretress can finally act decently on Hail stall teams.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

It's not only prediction, but giving you more turns.

If you expect a trapper to switch in you have to use Volt Change right away. With Shed Shell you can just keep Spiking without regard and switch after they come in.

Even is you dont want to use it as a pure entry hazard layer, you can use it as a bait. Lure a trapper in, Volt Change out, and try eliminate the trapper before it switches.