Frankly Salamence, I don't Give a Damn

[waffles101]

It's been a while now since the banning of 'mence but there are still people a bit annoyed. My opinion? Who cares? Dragonite > Salamence. This RMT is built around a bulky DD Dragonite.

CHANGES IN BOLD

---TEAM BUILDING PROCESS---​

What kind of Dragonite based team doesn't have the cute orange beast in it. I chose the Bulky DD set with a Lum Berry

Magnezone is an amazing partner for Dragonite. Together they resist every type in the game and Magnezone traps those pesky steel types.

Despite the amazing core of 'zone and 'nite, Edge-Quakers were still a huge threat and I still lacked Stealth Rock. Swampert plugged many holes and filled the job as a sturdy wall/Phazer.

I needed a spinner, a TSer and hopefully someone who could through in a screen. The amazingly bulky Forretress sprung to mind.

I still needed someone to take care of bulky waters, especially Swampert. grass types are an obvious choice. Ive never tried it out so I gave Shaymin a chance.

Finally a scarfer and a somewhat stall breaker (Trick) I threw in a choice Scarf Rotom-H.

This team left me with some big hole to patch up and my lead wasnt doing anything. My team changed to:

I changed shaymin to the freaking awesome Spore-Punch Breloom and switched Forretress out for a lead Machamp. This was working OK, and I decided to test out another posters comments.

My final team was this with a Choice Band Azelf Anti-Lead. Works even better than Machamp!!

---THE TEAM IN DETAIL---​

Azelf @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 24 HP/232 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd,-SpAtk)
- Explosion
- Ice Punch
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt

Just imagine a lead Machamp powered Pokemon, where your opponent thinks your a SR lead. Sure, it doesnt have the whole confusion hax thing, but the moves are insanely powerful.
U-Turn is used all the time, switching to an appropriate counter, sometimes doing upwards of 50% to frailer leads.
Ice Punch is mainly for Roserade, but can clean out grass types later in the game as these cause big problems for old Swampy.
Zen Headbutt is a good STAB (I've been lucky with the accuracy so far)
Explosion, take a guess, kills stuff. To explain the power of CB Explosion, it OHKOs standard Heatran.

VS Other Leads. (taken straight from Faladran's post)

Hide

Azelf
Opposing Azelf leads are often of the Colbur Berry variant these days, which is very fortunate for you. Colbur Azelf leads only run 216 speed EVs, meaning you can OHKO with U-turn. In the event that you are actually matched up against a Focus Sash Azelf, simply U-turn out to Rotom to finish it off.

Machamp
Zen Headbutt will OHKO with the help of Choice Band, netting you an early advantage in the match.

Aerodactyl
U-Turn to Rotom to break its sash, then use Thunderbolt to outspeed and KO it. If it attempts to use Taunt on the first turn, you may even be able to take it down without it getting Stealth Rock up.

Metagross
Explosion has a good chance to OHKO. However, you can also just U-turn out to Swampert to threaten it and get Stealth Rock up yourself.

Swampert
Explosion will OHKO, taking it out before it sets up Stealth Rock.

Infernape
Zen Headbutt will 2HKO, taking into account the use of Focus Sash. However, Infernape leads carry Fake Out, so you could also switch to Rotom for the immunity to Normal-type attacks.

Heatran
A Choice Band Explosion is actually powerful enough to OHKO Heatran, often giving you an early surprise kill.

Jirachi
Switch to Swampert. Jirachi leads tend to use Choice Scarf and will usually go for the Iron Head 2HKO against Azelf, so Swampert will be able to take the attacks easily and set up Stealth Rock.

Roserade
Ice Punch twice for the 2HKO. Since Azelf typically carries Taunt, better Roserade players may not even attempt to use Sleep Powder.

Hippowdon
Explosion will OHKO, taking out a very useful member of typical stall teams.

Starmie
U-Turn does 97.7% - 115.3%, a good chance to OHKO. The speed tie is problematic, however, as Starmie may be able to outpace and beat you.

Dragonite
Ice Punch right away, hitting hard with a 4x super-effective attack boosted by Choice Band.

Gliscor
Same as Dragonite.

Tyranitar
Explosion will deal heavy damage, but U-turning to Swampert is probably the best course of action. Swampert walls Tyranitar handily, and lead Tyranitar rarely carries Pursuit; therefore, you can hit it hard with a super-effective move.

Skarmory
Skarmory leads typically switch out in fear of Taunt or Fire Blast, meaning you can use U-turn to maintain offensive momentum and scout their switch-in. This is even better if they switch to a Tyranitar, as it will take heavy damage from a Choice Band U-turn.

Forretress
Same as Skarmory.

Dragonite (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/52 Atk/204 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk,-SpAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Flamethrower

Oh the love for this Pokémon. It's a true beast. I mean, Its like a Salamence that can survive a single hit =0. That does sound broken...
Anyways, on to the analysis. When combined with Light Screen, a single Ice Beam isn't a big deal. Physical ice attacks are extremely uncommon so I don't worry much at all. This set sets up on many Pokemon. Blissey can TWave once as you DD and then proceed to get destroyed by +1 Outrage. Earthquake gives beautiful neutral coverage. Flamethrower will 2HKO Physically defensive Skarmory and 3HKO Specially defensive sets while getting the KO on CB Scizor (which can't OHKO Dragonite with Bullet Punch)

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 40 Atk/216 Spd/252 SpAtk
Naive nature (+Spd,-SpDef)
- Explosion
- Hidden Power (Grass)
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt

Magnezone! An extremely standard set takes care of most of your basic steel problems. HP Grass gives a second Swampert killing attack and just generally kicks ass. TBolt is for powerful STAB, Substitute is to set up on things such an CB Scizor BP. Explosion just, kill stuff.

Swampert (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 240 HP/216 Def/52 SpDef
Relaxed nature (+Def,-Spd)
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Roar
- Stealth Rock

Swampert brings back memories. Mudkip was my first real Pokémon (blue didn't save) and I certainly haven't considered looking back. So easy to set up SR on the switch and then safely go to whatever else. Roar gives me a hope against set up sweepers. EQ really scares fire types that kill my lead and Ice beam compliments it nicely, catching Pokemon such as Flygon.

Rotom-h @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SpAtk
Timid nature (+Spd,-Atk)
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

This is a really reliable Pokemon. Checks water types and provides a secondary steel killer. Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt are great STAB and Trick ruins almost any blind switch.Scizor will come in ready to pursuit and just eat a few TBolts or get destroyed by an overheat.

Breloom (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 12 HP/252 Atk/244 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk,-SpAtk)
- Focus Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Spore
- Substitute

A very standard Spore-Sub-Punch set that just wrecks stuff. Breloom is my MVP by a long way. If it killing sleeping foes isnt enough, it gives Dragonite time to set up multiple DDs (+2 is GG if they dont have priority)
Spore is the crux of this set, sleeping stuff which supports the entire team.
Substitute provides easy Focus Punching and is easy to set up on sleeping pokemon
Focus Punch hits like a truck, and it is easy to Sub after you sleep something.
Seed Bomb provides secondary STAB.


This team is now doing pretty well, winning about 70% of matches (keep in mind my low CRE) but i still have some problems. Breloom is probably by biggest problem but my entire team is invulable. If someone can find something to do (IDK what) it would be helpful but thanks to those raters who have picked this team up out of the dirt.

Thanks for bothering to read this and get back to me with some helpful replies.

Waffles

 

[Renosaur]

Shouldn't you run HP fire on your Magnezone? The extra grass attack is redundant as you already have Shaymin to do something about it and also, most steel poke resists grass attacks. How else are you going to kill them?

 

[waffles101]

HP Fire is exceptionally pointless.

Super Effective HP Fire:
70*2=140

Neutral TBolt:
95*1.5=142.5

A Neutral Thunderbolt does more than a SE HP Fire and the ability the remove Swampert is very pleasing. HP Grass is also very nice on Grounds. HP Fire is only useful VS Scizor which isn't happy eating TBolts, especially if it is locked into Bullet Punch / Pursuit. HP Fire also reduces your Speed IV (IMO the most important, each point counts in Speed)

Have a nice day.

 

[Rogan]

I agree with your thoughts on using breloom over shaymin. Loom can cripple someone by putting them to sleep and still kills stuff with seed bomb. Plus sleeping pokes are setup fodder for nite. Try out the standard spore punch set.
Poison Heal @ Toxic Orb
12Hp/252Atk/244Spe
Spore
Focus Punch
Seed Bomb
Substitute

Nite eats mence for breakfast.

 

[Aerrow]

Hi there, cool team you've got here. It seems to be decent although there are a couple of changes I highly recommend being made and/or tested that could potentially massively increase your team's effectiveness and efficiency in battle. First of all, I don't understand why Forretress carries toxic spikes, and even light screen in that matter. None of your sweepers significantly need that support and since Swampert already gives stealth rock support, I think that Forretress should be removed unless you think that the spikes support is utmost necessary. I recommend opting for a more offensive lead that can provide decent momentum for your team to start to set-up; I recommend using a lead Machamp as not only can it match up nicely against many of today's common leads, it also has decent synergy with the rest of your team well, allowing it to be used for purposes later in the game as well. The set is shown below.

[box]

Machamp @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 240 HP/248 Atk/4 Spd/16 SpDef
Adamant nature (+Atk,-SpAtk)
- Bullet Punch
- DynamicPunch
- Ice Punch
- Payback[/box]
Although many battlers have started to prepare their teams for Machamp as it has significantly gotten more usage over the past few months, it still present as an excellent early-game offensive threat, due to the sheer power of its moves, ability and access to a priority move. The only lead that can efficiently beat Machamp is probably lum berry Metagross which is quite easily taken care of by your Rotom and even Swampert to an extent. Also, switching to said lead can also help you with your team's weakness to both offensive Infernape, Metagross and Lucario. Although this may seem to hinder your Dragonite's sweeping capabilities since it can't set up on Vaporeon and Suicune anymore, due to the removal of Light Screen support, I don't think this is much of a concern seeing as you have Shaymin who can quite easily deal with both of the aforementioned Pokemon. Moving on, I also have a couple of smaller suggestions in mind dealing with your Pokemon sets; first of all, I highly suggest you replace synthesis with rest on Shaymin as this seems to be a lot more efficient, after taking Shaymin's ability, natural cure into account. Lastly, I suggest trying out a life orb on Dragonite, as since it will be sweeping late game in the majority of cases, the extra power granted by said item will often surpass the capabilities given by a lum berry. I hope this rate helped, and good luck!

 

[waffles101]

Thanks both of you for your rates.
Today I will test both Breloom and lead Machamp. I think the bigest problem I will have will be VS stall w/o toxic spikes. I'm keeping the Lum Berry on Dragonite because being able to set up on status or recover from Uotrage is invaluable. I think these changes will help but something else may have to be done to break stall.
I will get back to you and edit the OP after brief testing.
Thanks again, Waffles

 

[Faladran]

I feel that Forretress is arguably the weakest link on this team. It puts you at a disadvantage right from the start of the game against Infernape and Heatran leads, and doesn't set up anything worthwhile for the team. Light Screen is unnecessary and the duration is too short without the use of Light Clay. Toxic Spikes is a good move, but it doesn't support your team much at all, as it is typically best utilized with bulky sweepers that aim to stall out the opponent, such as Wish / SubCM Jirachi or Crocune. Stealth Rock is really the only entry hazard you'll need on an offensively-minded team such as this one, as the time taken to set up other hazards will slow down your momentum considerably.

Machamp is a decent lead, and it may be worth trying out if you feel that it suits your playstyle. However, I would personally never use a Machamp at this point in the metagame. By now, Machamp leads have become so overused that practically everyone (and certainly any competent battler) is prepared to deal with it. This is especially apparent in the popularity of leads that are designed to beat Machamp, such as Colbur Azelf and LO Overheat Heatran. Since you already have Swampert to set up Stealth Rock, though, I think that an offensive anti-lead would still be the best fit for this team. To improve your lead match-ups, I'd like to recommend the use of Choice Band Azelf, a Pokemon that stacks up remarkably well against most common leads:

[box]

Azelf @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 24 HP / 232 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Explosion
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
[/box]
I always like to throw in a few non-standard sets onto my teams, as they can throw your opponents off and net you an advantage in many cases. CB Azelf is one of such non-standard sets, as it retains enough surprise value to often get the upper hand against opposing leads. Instead of giving a brief description of the moveset and how to play with this Azelf, I'm going to actually go into detail this time and provide you with a comprehensive strategy plan for dealing with some of the most popular leads in the current metagame. Feel free to use the following list as a reference for unfamiliar lead match-ups; hopefully after some playing, you'll be able to memorize the best course of action to take against just about every common lead you see.

Lead match-ups

Azelf
Opposing Azelf leads are often of the Colbur Berry variant these days, which is very fortunate for you. Colbur Azelf leads only run 216 speed EVs, meaning you can OHKO with U-turn. In the event that you are actually matched up against a Focus Sash Azelf, simply U-turn out to Rotom to finish it off.

Machamp
Zen Headbutt will OHKO with the help of Choice Band, netting you an early advantage in the match.

Aerodactyl
U-Turn to Rotom to break its sash, then use Thunderbolt to outspeed and KO it. If it attempts to use Taunt on the first turn, you may even be able to take it down without it getting Stealth Rock up.

Metagross
Explosion has a good chance to OHKO. However, you can also just U-turn out to Swampert to threaten it and get Stealth Rock up yourself.

Swampert
Explosion will OHKO, taking it out before it sets up Stealth Rock.

Infernape
Zen Headbutt will 2HKO, taking into account the use of Focus Sash. However, Infernape leads carry Fake Out, so you could also switch to Rotom for the immunity to Normal-type attacks.

Heatran
A Choice Band Explosion is actually powerful enough to OHKO Heatran, often giving you an early surprise kill.

Jirachi
Switch to Swampert. Jirachi leads tend to use Choice Scarf and will usually go for the Iron Head 2HKO against Azelf, so Swampert will be able to take the attacks easily and set up Stealth Rock.

Roserade
Ice Punch twice for the 2HKO. Since Azelf typically carries Taunt, better Roserade players may not even attempt to use Sleep Powder.

Hippowdon
Explosion will OHKO, taking out a very useful member of typical stall teams.

Starmie
U-Turn does 97.7% - 115.3%, a good chance to OHKO. The speed tie is problematic, however, as Starmie may be able to outpace and beat you.

Dragonite
Ice Punch right away, hitting hard with a 4x super-effective attack boosted by Choice Band.

Gliscor
Same as Dragonite.

Tyranitar
Explosion will deal heavy damage, but U-turning to Swampert is probably the best course of action. Swampert walls Tyranitar handily, and lead Tyranitar rarely carries Pursuit; therefore, you can hit it hard with a super-effective move.

Skarmory
Skarmory leads typically switch out in fear of Taunt or Fire Blast, meaning you can use U-turn to maintain offensive momentum and scout their switch-in. This is even better if they switch to a Tyranitar, as it will take heavy damage from a Choice Band U-turn.

Forretress
Same as Skarmory.

Good luck with your team!

 

[waffles101]

I've tested the changes with Machamp and Breloom and Machamp has been pretty good and Breloom is a total beast. The biggest problem with Machamp is the predictability. I will try out Azelf but Im not big on exploding off the bat which Choice Band will make me do as it puts me at a 5-5 situation as opposed to Machamps usual 6-5 where they have rocks. I'll play some games with CB Azelf and check it out, could be good. I totally agree that using standards isn't always a good thing.

Be back soon to edit the OP, whichever way it goes.

 

[Arcticblast]

You have a HUGE weakness to Swords Dance Scizor if you have a weakened team. I suggest changing your Magnezone a bit, to the Scarf set:

-Choice Scarf
-Naive
-4Atk/252SpA/252Spe
--Explosion
--Hidden Power (Fire)
--Flash Cannon
--Thunderbolt

Not only does it kill Scizor, but stops Foretress, Lucario, Jirachi, Breloom, Shaymin, Metagross, Bronzong, Celebi, Jolteon**, Electivire**, Roserade, the Rotom forms, Skarmory, and Weavile. This only counts OU Pokemon. A notable UU mon is Steelix, who takes virtually no damage from your other attacks.

**Absorb Electric attacks, resist F.C.

 

[waffles101]

I have previously used that specific Magnezone on about 3 other teams but the amount of Scizors carrying SD these days it very small. Magnezone allready catches slower steels, Swampert and Dragonite get solid hits on the others and Zong and Skarm get smashed by Rotom's Overheat. I also fail to see how this Pokemon beats Shaymin, Celebi, Jolteon, Electivire, Rotom and Weavile. HP Fire is actually quite weak and doesnt deal that much to Shaymin who smacks you with Earth Power. Celebi is the same. Jolteon and vire are being hit by a normally effective HP Fire, that does bugger all. Jolteon Outspeed Scarf Magnezone anyway. Weavile outspeed and hits you with Brick Break / Low Kick. Rotom, you are once again relying on Neutral HP Fire and breloom will tank your hit, sleep you, set up a sub, Focus Punch you into oblivion and walk away with a sub up and Magnezone dead.

Don't think I didn't put thought into CS Magnezone when building the team, but that ability to put up a sb on CB Scizor (waaaay more common) and the ability to smack Swampert really made up my mind for me.

Thanks for your effort, but I will keep my Magnezone the way it is.

 

[RedTangela]

Great team i just think you should replace your rotom with a strongly EV trained pikachu. pikachus are so underrated :( good luck with your team

 

[waffles101]

Currently, Dragonite was not been using Roost at all. I wish to replace it with a different move and I need expert help.
The options are:
ExtremeSpeed
Flamethrower / Fire Blast
Thunderbolt
Superpower
Draco Meteor

Even though many of these options are Special, I would change the nature but not thr EVs. ATM Im leaning towards ES because my team has no priority or fast scarfers.
Thankyou in advance.

 

[baddjordan]

Currently, Dragonite was not been using Roost at all. I wish to replace it with a different move and I need expert help.
The options are:
ExtremeSpeed
Flamethrower / Fire Blast
Thunderbolt
Superpower
Draco Meteor

Even though many of these options are Special, I would change the nature but not thr EVs. ATM Im leaning towards ES because my team has no priority or fast scarfers.
Thankyou in advance.

When I used DDnite in my first team, it had DD, Outrage, EQ and Fire Punch. Using a Special move means you have to nerf your EVs. Extreamespeed adds crappy coverage.

Or you could just used the mixed set
Dnite@Life Orb
EVs and Nature: Invest in max speed or max offensive
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-ExtreameSpeed
-Superpower

You don't really have a stall breaker and you don't have priority. It 1h-2hkoes everything that isn't extremely bulky (e.g. Cress, Cune, Vappy etc).

 

[Rogan]

If your nite isn't using Roost then ES will let you kill things like scarf flygon or weavile who think they outspeed you.

 

[Fishdog]

As physical Ice users would be more liable to slap you around with ice shard anyway, Fire Punch could be used scout with, or if you manage to sufficiently dance, keeps the sweep. On the other hand, even with no EV investment and a negative nature, Fire Blast still packs a wallop to most anything you'd hit with it anyway, the notable exception is that it hurts Skarmory greatly. (Though it isn't like you don't have Skarmory covered already) A general mixed Dragonite may be more helpful to you in this situation, one of which was suggested above.

 

[waffles101]

Thanks for your opinions.
I don't want to use MixNite but I will test fire punch, fire blast and ES. I will get back to you later, after some trsting and damage calcs.
Thanks

 

[waffles101]

I have decided to use Flamethrower on Dragonite over Roost. Flamethrower will 2HKO and 3HKO physically and specially defensive Skarmory respectively. Dragonite can use Flamethrower to OHKO Scizor as it can survive a Max attack Adamant CB Technician boosted Bullet Punch from Scizor. All this is with no SpA EVs and an Adamant Nature.
ExtremeSpeed Didn't OHKO Flygon, even at +1 and Fire Blast didn't grab any KOs that Flamethrower didn't.