GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

[Xator_Nova]

Agree on all points. The interesting part about the Paras line is using that phenomenal signature move to put the roaming legendaries to sleep. But because it is so slow, you will only be able to snooze them if they use Roar: a 25% chance. You are much better off running a Mean Look Haunter. So, there's only one thing Parasect is useful for and it's actually not even that useful for it. You'll be hard pressed to find a more ineffective Pokemon than Parasect. It learns it's first real attack at level 37, and no Headbutt either. It might not be low enough.

Nah, I think you're exaggerating Paras's badness. For whatever is worth, Paras can sweep Whitney at base level.

Paras can also deal with some of Morty's Pokémon and the Magnemites in Jasmine's Gym, and deal with the Rival's Gastly and Magnemite line with the Dig TM and can simply Spore in any other scenario. While it's clearly not good, it's better than just being ineffective in general like you're suggesting.

 

[Turdterra]

Nah, I think you're exaggerating Paras's badness. For whatever is worth, Paras can sweep Whitney at base level.

Paras can also deal with some of Morty's Pokémon and the Magnemites in Jasmine's Gym, and deal with the Rival's Gastly and Magnemite line with the Dig TM and can simply Spore in any other scenario. While it's clearly not good, it's better than just being ineffective in general like you're suggesting.

Base Level is 10 in Ilex. Sure you can catch it higher levels in the Bug Catching Contest which is easy to get to in a day or you can just change the clock with the secret setting.

While yes it can sweep here, it’s more dependent on Clefairy not actually killing you with Metronome and you need Stun Spore to land. And if that Fury Cutter missed, you were dead. While it has the potential to sweep Whitney, it’s still horrible due to those factors.

 

[Modulo]

Nah, I think you're exaggerating Paras's badness. For whatever is worth, Paras can sweep Whitney at base level.

Paras can also deal with some of Morty's Pokémon and the Magnemites in Jasmine's Gym, and deal with the Rival's Gastly and Magnemite line with the Dig TM and can simply Spore in any other scenario. While it's clearly not good, it's better than just being ineffective in general like you're suggesting.

This is less 'Paras can sweep Whitney' and more 'Fury Cutter/Rollout can sweep Whitney' (which btw is the current speedrun strategy, only that it's used by an actively good 'mon). Also this relies on a Gold Berry (which is rare) and Clefairy not doing stupid Metronome things for multiple turns (and believe me, Clefairy can do many stupid Metronome things to a Paras).

 

[Kurona]

This is less 'Paras can sweep Whitney' and more 'Fury Cutter/Rollout can sweep Whitney' (which btw is the current speedrun strategy, only that it's used by an actively good 'mon). Also this relies on a Gold Berry (which is rare) and Clefairy not doing stupid Metronome things for multiple turns (and believe me, Clefairy can do many stupid Metronome things to a Paras).

Whatever’s doing the legwork for Paras, it’s still capable of that and it would contribute to a higher rank. Fury Cutter isn’t exactly contested either and giving up a berry isn’t bad.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

Needing the Gold Berry just feels so specific, idk. The only ways to get one before Whitney are to do the Machop trade or to come third in the Bug-catching Contest. The former’s easy enough to do I guess, but would we put something like that in the write-up? The healing has to be both substantial and passive to be useful, so you can’t say something general like ‘Paras can beat Whitney with healing items’ or even ‘...with a held berry’. Another downside of relying on a consumable item is that it requires the player to save beforehand in case they lose despite using it.

I guess I just don’t know what the policy is on these kinds of issues.

 

[Xator_Nova]

You have to keep in mind that I used an underleveled Paras (it was the first battle I used Paras in that playthrough), and a normal playthrough would probably have it higher leveled enough to not need a Gold Berry. I still have a savestate before that battle so I could make more proper tests to check out if a) Stun Spore isn't needed at a higher level (though perhaps even at base level it wasn't needed anyways) and b) if a normal Berry is enough - I don't think I remember why I used a Gold Berry to begin with, I think I got one at the Bug-Catching Contest and just gave it to Paras since I thought I'd need it, but I'm not sure if I actually needed it.

I don't think using Metronome as an argument against it holds much weight because that move can screw up anyone.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

A higher level might be worse because you could risk 3HKOing Clef and not having a strong enough Fury Cutter to OHKO Miltank.

Also, while it’s true that Metronome can screw over anyone, the series of move selections in the video were actually quite lucky (Bone Club miss, Hi Jump Kick, late Mimic, only one 3-hit Doubleslap). A Pokémon that uses Clefairy to set up is naturally at more risk of being messed up by Metronome than one that 2HKOs before putting in work against Miltank.

 

[ASMRxism]

This is less 'Paras can sweep Whitney' and more 'Fury Cutter/Rollout can sweep Whitney' (which btw is the current speedrun strategy, only that it's used by an actively good 'mon).

Out of curiosity what mon are you referring to?

For what it's worth I don't think that being able to cheese one (admittedly frustrating) gym leader is enough to make up for the rest of Paras's faults. What does it do afterward besides get resisted by the next 3 gym leaders, hit super effectively by the next (and the aces of the two Elite Four members it should counter), and outsped no matter who it tries to Spore?

I guess someone should try this in a run if there's this much contention but come on, it's Paras lol

 

[Xator_Nova]

Out of curiosity what mon are you referring to?

For what it's worth I don't think that being able to cheese one (admittedly frustrating) gym leader is enough to make up for the rest of Paras's faults. What does it do afterward besides get resisted by the next 3 gym leaders, hit super effectively by the next (and the aces of the two Elite Four members it should counter), and outsped no matter who it tries to Spore?

I guess someone should try this in a run if there's this much contention but come on, it's Paras lol

He's referring to Croconaw, who can also defeat Whitney at Lv18 with Fury Cutter.

I have used Paras in GSC (so I'm not talking out of theorymonning) and I'll be the first to say that it's definitely pretty bad but not the worst thing in the world, which is what I have been replying to. It staying in D Tier is fine to me

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I didn't think I'd need to tear at a Fire Starter after RBY Charmander, but then it hit me.

Why is Cyndaquil at A? This poor cute mon is stuck with Ember until Lv. 31. In Johto, which makes this even worse than normal.

That means Flame Wheel at the 6th or 7th Gym. Not even Flamethrower. Flame. Wheel.

Then you only have to endure this horror for 5 more levels until Quilava has mercy on your soul, evolves, and finally develops arms that can actually punch. That means shelling out 6k for the Fire/Thunderpunch combo that a ton of mons have so much earlier.

Speaking of 6k, I expect someone to mention burning an outrageous amount of money and or gambling for Fire Blast.

Fire Blast is not a panacea. It's extremely expensive and this is arguably the game where money matters the most in the whole franchise. Of course, it also comes exactly at the point you'll be spending the most. Headbutt, haircuts for Return, the elemental punches, maybe even potions that don't suck ass? Forget all of that if you wanna have a Fire-type for all of 5 turns (barring misses) until you need to reload at the closest PokéCenter.

Oh yeah, Cyndaquil also demands Dig. That means that you're sending several Ground-mons that desperately need any STAB (Hi Sandshrew) straight into the Distortion World.

B-But Typhlosion!

Ok, let's take a look at it... Fire Punch, Thunderpunch, Dig and still has room for Strength just so you don't need to burn a team slot on an HM slave? Looks pretty good... Is that Clair with a Kingdra and a steel chair!?

Yep, it is, congratulations, you're stuck with a route cleaner at best until all the way to the E4. After it evolves to Typhlosion. Quilava straight up is a struggle mon. I'd unironically rate Bayleef over it.

So how does it fare on the E4?

Will is as free as Monopoly parking because for some reason his Slowbro doesn't have Surf. Fire and Thunderpunch really is a great offensive combo, but I'd be mildly concerned if it can't OHKO things because Psychic hits hard. It shouldn't really happen tho.

Koga is a scrub. Typh does have the tools to make sure he goes down fast.

Bruno is where things start to get dicey again. Top got Dig, sure, you can EQ that if you didn't give the TM for someone that deserves it unlike Typh, but that's a reversal from the first 2 battles. Onix and Machamp have Rock Slide. Don't want.

Karen is another scrub. What is Gengar going to do? Lick you?

Lance... the one matchup that truly matters until Red... What doesn't kill Typhlosion resists everything it can do.

So with all of that said... Can a kind soul explain to me how this trash route cleaner is sitting at A?


Speaking of A... The Red Gyarados is sitting at A. Not Magikarp. Y'all gonna ruin someone's day by making them think that they can just scoop up an Old Rod Karp and grind it to 20 with minimal effort like in other games. The Red Gyarados doesn't even have a Magikarp phase!!! And ngl, it looks really suspect there, but I'll get back to you on that.

 

[Random Passerby]

Sorry for not being active for so long. I burned out on GSC but now I'm back. Going to update this in a few hours.

You're absolutely correct that the only thing Cyndaquil has over Totodile is that early Fire Blast. It would also like Dig or Rollout because its movepool is horrible. I'm going to downgrade it to B.

Red Gyarados will be separated from Magikarp later.

I'm not sold on Paras. I used it recently and its moveset by Elite Four is Spore / Cut / Fury Cutter / Dig. It can't even get Strength. This setup lacks power and isn't bulky either.

EDIT: Changes Summary
Cyndaquil A -> B
Red Gyarados tiered separately from Magikarp, who drops to C.
Eevee (Espeon) B -> C
Tyrogue (C) C -> E

 

[ASMRxism]

EDIT: Changes Summary
Cyndaquil A -> B
Red Gyarados tiered separately from Magikarp, who drops to C.
Eevee (Espeon) B -> C
Tyrogue (C) C -> E

A minor nitpick but I thought you should know that Nagikarp, not Magikarp, appears to be added to C.

I agree with all of these, incidentally. Cyndaquil always felt underwhelming whenever I tried using it (honestly preferred Chikorita runs), Magikarp vs. Red Gyarados is definitely worth the distinction, and Espeon underwhelmed me, mainly due to lack of a Psychic move between Confusion, which you won't get, and Psybeam at 36.

If anyone is interested, I'm close to finishing a run with thoughts on Gengar, Slowking, Umbreon and Steelix.

 

[Random Passerby]

A minor nitpick but I thought you should know that Nagikarp, not Magikarp, appears to be added to C.

You saw nothing :-)

If anyone is interested, I'm close to finishing a run with thoughts on Gengar, Slowking, Umbreon and Steelix.

Please do. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

Also, if people are on board, I'm going to move Vaporeon to C because although the DST trick is annoying, cheesing a Water Stone after the 4th Gym seems doable for a good mon.

shinquickman has also made the case for Jigglypuff to C here

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You saw nothing :-)


Please do. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

Also, if people are on board, I'm going to move Vaporeon to C because although the DST trick is annoying, cheesing a Water Stone after the 4th Gym seems doable for a good mon.

shinquickman has also made the case for Jigglypuff to C here

C might be too low tbh.

Think about it, Vap is actually the best in-game eeveelution because of how you get Surf right after Eevee and can go straight to the Fisherman to get a Water Stone.

In terms of coverage, it gets Icy Wind, which is frankly enough + some random filler.

Just because several other mons are better than it and either come earlier or have better coverage, it doesn't mean Vap is bad per se.

There could be a reasonable case for B because of its stats. Surf off 110 SpA is really strong compared to what a lot of Johto has to offer.

 

[Random Passerby]

C might be too low tbh.

Think about it, Vap is actually the best in-game eeveelution because of how you get Surf right after Eevee and can go straight to the Fisherman to get a Water Stone.

In terms of coverage, it gets Icy Wind, which is frankly enough + some random filler

While that is true, Crystal is a game where you can get quite a few good Waters without much effort. Suicune, Red Gyarados, Lapras, Tentacruel, Lanturn and Golduck can claim Ice coverage + Surf as well.
110 SpA Surf helps to clear routes yes but Icy Wind is so weak that you only 3HKO Dragonair , which is similar to Tentacruel's 80 SpA.

Suicune's Aurora Beam and Golduck's Ice Punch can 2HKO Dragonair while Lapras's Ice Beam obviously OHKOes.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

While that is true, Crystal is a game where you can get quite a few good Waters without much effort. Suicune, Red Gyarados, Lapras, Tentacruel, Lanturn and Golduck can claim Ice coverage + Surf as well.
110 SpA Surf helps to clear routes yes but Icy Wind is so weak that you only 3HKO Dragonair , which is similar to Tentacruel's 80 SpA.

Suicune's Aurora Beam and Golduck's Ice Punch can 2HKO Dragonair while Lapras's Ice Beam obviously OHKOes.

That's a fair point. Do you want me to test it? I was planning on testing out the Red Gyarados and Quagsire on my next two runs, but I can swap out one of them.

And yes, like I said, Vaporeon is neither bad nor would require too much effort, but there are just so many Water-types doing what it can do but with better coverage, that the only argument for running it would be design bias and that 110 SpA. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad option though, ranks aren't relative to other mons after all, right?

 

[Random Passerby]

That's a fair point. Do you want me to test it? I was planning on testing out the Red Gyarados and Quagsire on my next two runs, but I can swap out one of them.

And yes, like I said, Vaporeon is neither bad nor would require too much effort, but there are just so many Water-types doing what it can do but with better coverage, that the only argument for running it would be design bias and that 110 SpA. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad option though, ranks aren't relative to other mons after all, right?

If it's not too much trouble, can you test it? Ranks aren't relative to other mons, correct.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

If it's not too much trouble, can you test it? Ranks aren't relative to other mons, correct.

Not at all, I'll test out Vaporeon in Crystal. I'm really suspecting the Red Gyara being so high, so I'll probably test it in Silver, but it'll take some time until I can do these runs.

 

[Random Passerby]

Not at all, I'll test out Vaporeon in Crystal. I'm really suspecting the Red Gyara being so high, so I'll probably test it in Silver, but it'll take some time until I can do these runs.

Red Gyarados being high is partly because it is a guaranteed encounter, has good IVs, comes early at a high level, can learn many HMs and can smash things with Thrash.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Looking at the tier list to try and find a 6th member. Saw Gastly (Trade) at A.

Am I missing something here? Haunter is (rightfully) all the way down to E. Gengar getting the elemental punches doesn't change the fact that until Lv. 21 (Which is after Sudowoodo, mind you, right at the mid-game) Gastly's only attack option is...

Then it gets Night Shade.

I can't in good conscience advocate for a literal dead weight for half the game to be sitting at A.


There's another thing I wanna test, Nidoran-F actually seems to be much better than Nidoran-M against Whitney because of how it's not affected by Attract. That is a huge matchup that definitely gives it an edge tier-wise. Anyone used Nido-M against Whitney and want to comment on how the male matchup is?

I was thinking about running the Mt. Mortar Golbat, but Crobat doesn't get Sludge Bomb.

 

[Random Passerby]

Gastly suffers from the RSE Gardevoir syndrome yeah although its defensive typing and Curse allows you to cheese some match-ups such as Bugsy's Scyther, Whitney's Miltank (risky!) and Morty's Gengar. I took the list from the previous thread so I didn't think about it much. Maybe it deserved a drop.

In Crystal, you can catch Lv20 - 22 Gastly at Tin Tower, bypassing its horrible Gastly stage although it will be under levelled by then. I'm going to start a test run this Friday to see if it really feels A or not then.

 

[ASMRxism]

Looking at the tier list to try and find a 6th member. Saw Gastly (Trade) at A.

Am I missing something here? Haunter is (rightfully) all the way down to E. Gengar getting the elemental punches doesn't change the fact that until Lv. 21 (Which is after Sudowoodo, mind you, right at the mid-game) Gastly's only attack option is...

Then it gets Night Shade.

I can't in good conscience advocate for a literal dead weight for half the game to be sitting at A.

I haven't finished the run but I'm well past the point of early game Gastly, and it hasn't ever felt bad once. I caught it in Violet City and while it has needed some support, it's been consistently solid as a team member and as soon as it hits Gengar it's great.

Lick is definitely a bit of a bummer, especially since it means you can't hit the Normal types you wall (and there's a fair few). But the Paralysis chance is nice, and Lick's low damage is less of a problem when hitting the several early game Mons with only normal attacks. It also can't be stressed enough how solid Level 1 Hypnosis is, cheesing bosses and making catching way easier.

Speaking of cheese, Curse is a great way to speed up the matchups that can't hit you effectively. Not just immunity, either: Bugsy's rather scary Scyther deals 1/4 damage with Fury Cutter, which makes Hypnosis+Curse easy to pull off. Stupid AI that refuses to switch makes Gastly actually surprisingly effective.

Once Gastly gets Night Shade, it continues to be the same type-resisting, speedy sleeping, Cursing cheeseball but with consistent damage, usually a 3hko, useful for catching Pokemon with predictable outcomes. Miltank still threatens with strong Rollouts but a Hypnosis or Curse at least puts a timer on the match.

You get Gengar right around when you reach Morty, immediately able to hit it with a Punch TM or three depending on your team needs, while STILL being a fast sleeper, STILL resisting everything, and now hitting with excellent coverage and power. I've had far less effective early game Mons with way worse late-game payoffs.

Also, while this is pretty niche, it's also around level 40 not too long after you face Suicune, meaning it's an ideal Entei/Suicune hunter with high speed, Mean Look and Hypnosis. There's a mathematical way to hunt down Entei and Raikou in about 15 minutes with Repels, and they're debatably worth the detour, just to get them out of the way if you want Ho-Oh or want some Electric and Fire Pokemon. Not efficient or optimal, but fun, and a natural option when using Gengar (or Jynx). EDIT: After completing catching these two (about an hour combined, maybe) I looked at Entei and Raikou's level-up movesets and... probably not gonna use them in the run lol Still fun tho

Give it a try! The Gastly phase is absolutely manageable and the flexibility of Gengar is worth it. Not optimal, but well above the overall efficacy of anyone in B imo

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I haven't finished the run but I'm well past the point of early game Gastly, and it hasn't ever felt bad once. I caught it in Violet City and while it has needed some support, it's been consistently solid as a team member and as soon as it hits Gengar it's great.

Lick is definitely a bit of a bummer, especially since it means you can't hit the Normal types you wall (and there's a fair few). But the Paralysis chance is nice, and Lick's low damage is less of a problem when hitting the several early game Mons with only normal attacks. It also can't be stressed enough how solid Level 1 Hypnosis is, cheesing bosses and making catching way easier.

Speaking of cheese, Curse is a great way to speed up the matchups that can't hit you effectively. Not just immunity, either: Bugsy's rather scary Scyther deals 1/4 damage with Fury Cutter, which makes Hypnosis+Curse easy to pull off. Stupid AI that refuses to switch makes Gastly actually surprisingly effective.

Once Gastly gets Night Shade, it continues to be the same type-resisting, speedy sleeping, Cursing cheeseball but with consistent damage, usually a 3hko, useful for catching Pokemon with predictable outcomes. Miltank still threatens with strong Rollouts but a Hypnosis or Curse at least puts a timer on the match.

You get Gengar right around when you reach Morty, immediately able to hit it with a Punch TM or three depending on your team needs, while STILL being a fast sleeper, STILL resisting everything, and now hitting with excellent coverage and power. I've had far less effective early game Mons with way worse late-game payoffs.

Also, while this is pretty niche, it's also around level 40 not too long after you face Suicune, meaning it's an ideal Entei/Suicune hunter with high speed, Mean Look and Hypnosis. There's a mathematical way to hunt down Entei and Raikou in about 15 minutes with Repels, and they're debatably worth the detour, just to get them out of the way if you want Ho-Oh or want some Electric and Fire Pokemon. Not efficient or optimal, but fun, and a natural option when using Gengar (or Jynx). EDIT: After completing catching these two (about an hour combined, maybe) I looked at Entei and Raikou's level-up movesets and... probably not gonna use them in the run lol Still fun tho

Give it a try! The Gastly phase is absolutely manageable and the flexibility of Gengar is worth it. Not optimal, but well above the overall efficacy of anyone in B imo

I'm legit sold on Gastly's defensive prowess.
2020 keeps on wilding.

These do sound like good points, but I really don't know about that route cleaning potential, because while Curse + Sleep cheese works on bosses (you can add Nightmare cheese to the mix later), we're still talking about some serious drawbacks.

Hypnosis got 60% Acc. Curse got that nasty 50% HP cost, which kills its defensive value because you'll need Hypnosis to hit on a timely manner.

On routes, relying on either sounds like a terrible idea and as cheesy as it is, it's a rather slow and boring process for bosses too.

That's not even counting how Lick and Night Shade ain't going to work at all the moment you bump into a Normal-type.

I'd consider C because once it gets to the Gengar phase it'll be flying around throwing punches that hit almost as hard and fast as Alakazam's punches, but getting to 21 for Night Shade really sounds like a big headache.


I'll get back to you on the Tin Tower one.

Edit: Looking up the Tin Tower. You lose Hypnosis, which is a huge deal because then Gengar is really just another puncher, but a good one nonetheless.

I dunno, I might try it out. I needed something at that point of the game to round out my team anyway.


Another Edit: Man, I'm even struggling to think about an endgame moveset that isn't 3 punches plus filler.
This mon's movepool is high-key garbage. And boring, which is even worse.

 

[Tomaius]

How come Spearow is S Tier?

I take it, its because of the trade you get in one of the super early routes for bonus XP and STAB Return and Fly.

 

[Kurona]

How come Spearow is S Tier?

I take it, its because of the trade you get in one of the super early routes for bonus XP and STAB Return and Fly.

Yes, Spearow is ranked at S for Kenya; but recently it's been argued it shouldn't be S.